All authority

[Grip Docility]

It depends on how you define the term “plan & execute”. Did God make Judas betray Jesus and make people crucify Him, or did God know that Judas would betray Jesus and it would lead to His crucifixion? Because there’s a huge difference in knowing what people will do by their own free will and actually making people do what you want them to do.

Matthew 9:4 And Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, said, “Why are you thinking evil in your hearts?

 

[hislegacy]

I’ll answer you by asking a question. What was the greater injustice…the rape of your daughter (which is horrible), or the crucifixion of Jesus?

Obfuscating the question is not an answer.

Answer the question:

In your opinion - did God ordain the rape of my seven year old daughter.

Ordain - def - To order or decree by virtue of superior authority

 

[Aviel]

Yes He did. And God planned to crucify Him.

Yes.

And God the Son decided to Do His Fathers will.

But He didnt have to...

He CHOSE to do it..

Or as Jesus told us...>"no man takes my life....I LAY IT DOWN"....

and He chose to do that, but He didnt have to, as He has FREE WILL, then and now., and could have chosen not to go to The Cross.

And the NT teaches us that "Because of the JOY set before Him"... Christ CHOSE to go to the Cross.

God used Satan as a tool.

Satan does not need God's Help or leadership, or control,..... and in fact rejected it, or He'd still be a happy Cherub leading worship in Glory.

Satan is the "god of this world", and that is not God's will, that is the spiritual and literal effect and end result of Adam giving his obedience to the Devil , who tempted Adam and Eve to do it.
See, Adam had DOMINION over everything.......the UNIVERSE< the ANIMALS.....all of it.
And Adam rebelled against God's command not to partake of that Fruit Tree....and that is to : kneel before Satan,= which transferred Dominion of this world to the Devil, and you see how the Devil has taken this Dominion and created a HELL on Earth as this World and its system.

Satan is the "god of this world".. and that is why this world is sensual sewer of depravity, getting worse.

 

[Hammster]

Non Sequitur. My argument is well established and in no manner bound to your assumption. It has been laid out, thoroughly throughout this discussion.

Okay. Do you believe that God planned and executed the crucifixion?

 

[Hammster]

It depends on how you define the term “plan & execute”. Did God make Judas betray Jesus and make people crucify Him, or did God know that Judas would betray Jesus and it would lead to His crucifixion? Because there’s a huge difference in knowing what people will do by their own free will and actually making people do what you want them to do.

Here’s what I mean.

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:23

But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
— Isaiah 53:10

 

[Hammster]

Obfuscating the question is not an answer.

Answer the question:

In your opinion - did God ordain the rape of my seven year old daughter.

Ordain - def - To order or decree by virtue of superior authority

Yes, He did. That doesn’t mean he made someone do it. It doesn’t mean He didn’t have a purpose. But keep in mind that as sinful creatures, we should not expect to be treated better than our Savior.

Edit to correct a point.

 

[Hammster]

Yes.

And God the Son decided to Do His Fathers will.

But He didnt have to...

He CHOSE to do it..

Or as Jesus told us...>"no man takes my life....I LAY IT DOWN"....

and He chose to do that, but He didnt have to, as He has FREE WILL, then and now., and could have chosen not to go to The Cross.

And the NT teaches us that "Because of the JOY set before Him"... Christ CHOSE to go to the Cross.



Satan does not need God's Help or leadership, or control,..... and in fact rejected it, or He'd still be a happy Cherub leading worship in Glory.

Satan is the "god of this world", and that is not God's will, that is the spiritual and literal effect and end result of Adam giving his obedience to the Devil , who tempted Adam and Eve to do it.
See, Adam had DOMINION over everything.......the UNIVERSE< the ANIMALS.....all of it.
And Adam rebelled against God's command not to partake of that Fruit Tree....and that is to : kneel before Satan,= which transferred Dominion of this world to the Devil, and you see how the Devil has taken this Dominion and created a HELL on Earth as this World and its system.

Satan is the "god of this world".. and that is why this world is sensual sewer of depravity, getting worse.

Well, you seem to think Satan has more power and authority than God. I’ll leave you to it.

 

[Aviel]

Well, you seem to think Satan has more power and authority than God. I’ll leave you to it.

Calvin teaches that Satan is not in charge of Evil, and that God is causing it instead.

So, i reject any anti-Christ theology that accuses God of doing the Devil's work.
I would not want to be "caught dead" teaching that heresy.

Believe it.

 

[Grip Docility]

Okay. Do you believe that God planned and executed the crucifixion?

Could you please ask this question in a bifurcated fashion, that doesn't lump the philosophical discussion of God's attributes into a question about who executed Christ?

 

[Mr. M]

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to keep all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
— Matthew 28:18-20

Hopefully this clears up the confusion that Satan is currently running things.

Specifying the aion:
Ephesians 2:
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the aion of this world,
according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now
works in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,
fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the aion to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace
in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

2 Peter 3:
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens
and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent
to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—
as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you.

Mark 10:
29 So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s,
30 who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the aion to come, eternal life.

John 5:
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly
among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed,
and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 

[Mr. M]

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to keep all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
— Matthew 28:18-20

Hopefully this clears up the confusion that Satan is currently running things.

I just posted a few passages for consideration, but I would also like to propose a question
in reflection of the many responses on this topic.
Did the Nazis attempt to exterminate the Jews under Christ's authority, or Satan?
Any genocide for that matter. Realizing that this could spill over into the current
debate raging over the situation in Gaza.

 

[Grip Docility]

Specifying the aion:
Ephesians 2:
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the aion of this world,
according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now
works in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,
fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the aion to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace
in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

2 Peter 3:
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens
and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent
to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—
as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you.

Mark 10:
29 So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s,
30 who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the aion to come, eternal life.

John 5:
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly
among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed,
and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Galatians 4

4 What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a minor he is no different from a slave, even though he is the legal owner of the estate; 2 rather, he is subject to guardians and caretakers until the time previously set by his father. 3 So it is with us — when we were “children” we were slaves to the elemental spirits of the universe; 4 but when the appointed time arrived, God sent forth his Son. He was born from a woman, born into a culture in which legalistic perversion of the Torah was the norm, 5 so that he might redeem those in subjection to this legalism and thus enable us to be made God’s sons. 6 Now because you are sons, God has sent forth into our hearts the Spirit of his Son, the Spirit who cries out, “Abba!” (that is, “Dear Father!”). 7 So through God you are no longer a slave but a son, and if you are a son you are also an heir.

 

[hislegacy]

Yes, He did. That doesn’t mean he made someone do it. It doesn’t mean He had a purpose.

He ordained my child to walk the floor nightly in horror and pain - to vomit until there was nothing left to vomit? For no particular purpose?
He ordained a seven year old to have to undergo corrective surgery because of the rape For no particular purpose?
He ordained my child to go through years of counseling, medication and nightmares For no particular purpose?
He ordained that even now when she is married and in her mid 20's she still does not sleep more that a couple hours a night For no particular purpose?

You have my greatest respect - I appreciate you personally more than you know. But in this case you are dead wrong.

Matt 12:25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.​

​

No my friend, God does not use the things of Satan - it would be a house divided.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil - and He still does destroy the works of the devil.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Here’s what I mean.

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:23

But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
— Isaiah 53:10

Yeah there’s no doubt that Christ’s crucifixion was planned before creation.

 

[Grip Docility]

Yes, He did. That doesn’t mean he made someone do it. It doesn’t mean He had a purpose. But keep in mind that as sinful creatures, we should not expect to be treated better than our Savior.

A Royal Decree is an infallible and uncontestable thing. There is no middle ground when a person casually throws the word around.

In Esther, The King gives his signet ring to Haman to make a decree, without asking what the contents of the decree would be.
This is identical to Job 2, which reveals that God is disgusted with Satan's abuse of his positional authority and usage of the King's TRUST.

In Esther, Once the King acknowledges that Haman is evil and his "Adversary", thanks to the good advisement of his Queen, The King has Haman hung by the 75 foot gallows that Haman himself had constructed.

It is unwise to attempt to define horrible events as being genuinely Decreed by the King with Cavalier Air.

 

[Grip Docility]

Yeah there’s no doubt that Christ’s crucifixion was planned before creation.

Beware, though, God's incomprehensible wisdom, in the crafting of the initial question that led to the following question was intended to bind God's actions in response to Creation, to God's guilt in the matter, where guilt is deceptively reframed to the word justice or sovereignty, in light of doctrine that is derived outside the scope of scripture.

What I mean is this... Matthew 15:18 But the things going forth out of the mouth come forth out of the heart

Who was responsible for the most evil act in history?

Satan

Scripture disagrees with you again.

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:23

But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
— Isaiah 53:10

 

[Mr. M]

Galatians 4

4 What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a minor he is no different from a slave, even though he is the legal owner of the estate; 2 rather, he is subject to guardians and caretakers until the time previously set by his father. 3 So it is with us — when we were “children” we were slaves to the elemental spirits of the universe; 4 but when the appointed time arrived, God sent forth his Son. He was born from a woman, born into a culture in which legalistic perversion of the Torah was the norm, 5 so that he might redeem those in subjection to this legalism and thus enable us to be made God’s sons. 6 Now because you are sons, God has sent forth into our hearts the Spirit of his Son, the Spirit who cries out, “Abba!” (that is, “Dear Father!”). 7 So through God you are no longer a slave but a son, and if you are a son you are also an heir.

Galatians 4:
19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.

 

[Mr. M]

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
— Acts 2:23

But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
— Isaiah 53:10

And in His own words:
John 19:
10 Then Pilate said to Him, “Are You not speaking to me?
Do You not know that I have the authority to crucify You,
and the authority to release You?”
11 Jesus answered, “You could have no authority at all against Me
unless it had been given you from above.
Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”

 

[Mr. M]

Beware, though, God's incomprehensible wisdom, in the crafting of the initial question that led to the following question was intended to bind God's actions in response to Creation, to God's guilt in the matter, where guilt is deceptively reframed to the word justice or sovereignty, in light of doctrine that is derived outside the scope of scripture.

What I mean is this... Matthew 15:18 But the things going forth out of the mouth come forth out of the heart

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth,
and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Man has needed no help from Satan to fully manifest his wickedness.
Satan will be bound for 1000 years, and the Law will go forth from Jerusalem.
Adulterers will be put to death, (for example)
and afterwards he leads a final rebellion.
Therefore, while man needs no help or purpose from Satan,
Satan does exercise his spiritual influence among the disobedient.

Matthew 13:
37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom,
but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age,
and the reapers are the angels.

Luke 10:
19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions,
and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather
rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”
John 10:10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy.
I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

 

[Hammster]

Calvin teaches that Satan is not in charge of Evil, and that God is causing it instead.

So, i reject any anti-Christ theology that accuses God of doing the Devil's work.
I would not want to be "caught dead" teaching that heresy.

Believe it.

Please explain further here