Abiogenesis and Evolution

As I was saying

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2015
1,258
200
82
Drouin, Victoria, Australia
✟2,608.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That isn't the topic of this thread. There are plenty of other threads that discuss the evidence for evolution. I strongly encourage people to check out my thread that deals with some of the genetic evidence for common ancestry. Please check it out and discuss the evidence.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/endogenous-retroviruses-evidence-for-human-evolution.7840464/
I don't have time to read fairy stories. I have read umpteen books on the subject already that have as their main aim the truth. Their authors without exception were Ph.Ds and they taught at places like Yale, Harvard, Oxford and Cambridge universities.
 
Upvote 0

crjmurray

The Bear. Not The Bull.
Dec 17, 2014
4,490
1,146
Lake Ouachita
✟16,029.00
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Private
We don't need first hand accounts anymore!! Another opening your mouth and putting your foot in it. The last four times I have been to court (before I retired I taught law) every case had a parade of people who gave testimony as to what they saw and heard. The detective agency also gave evidence as to DNA but not in every case.

In fact, in all my years involved in the legal system, I have not come across ONE case where a person was convicted on DNA alone as the courts know that DNA samples can get mixed up, or changed or be insufficient evidence that can be challenged.

Whilst it is fairly conclusive in most of the cases in which it is used, it is not foolproof so wake up to yourself and stop muttering mumbo jumbo just to prove you are right and everyone else is wrong because to not put too fine a point on it, you rantings and ravings are getting tiresome.

Sorry but you've shown your hand. Making the jump from "forensic" to "DNA" isn't something someone in the business of law does. That's what people who watch CSI and freshmen criminal justice students do. And to think I wasted a Henry Fielding joke on you.....tsk tsk tsk.
 
Upvote 0

As I was saying

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2015
1,258
200
82
Drouin, Victoria, Australia
✟2,608.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Sorry but you've shown your hand. Making the jump from "forensic" to "DNA" isn't something someone in the business of law does. That's what people who watch CSI and freshmen criminal justice students do. And to think I wasted a Henry Fielding joke on you.....tsk tsk tsk.

Nice to know that you use jokes to prove what you are saying is the truth. I wonder of Henry Fielding knows that he is a joke? I guess when what you say is devoid of truth, jokes are about as much as you have got to cover up your embarrassment.

By the way, DNA is forensic evidence. You are so ignorant of the facts the mind boggles. They don't make the jump from forensic to DNA because they don't need to because it does not exist.

Forensic science is any scientific field that is applied to the field of law. Forensic scientists are tasked with the collection, preservation, and analysis of scientific evidence (DNA) during the course of an investigation.

DNA. A nucleic acid that carries the genetic information in cells and some viruses, consisting of two long chains of nucleotides twisted into a double helix and joined by hydrogen bonds between the complementary bases adenine and thymine or cytosine and guanine.
 
Upvote 0

crjmurray

The Bear. Not The Bull.
Dec 17, 2014
4,490
1,146
Lake Ouachita
✟16,029.00
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Private
Nice to know that you use jokes to prove what you are saying is the truth. I wonder of Henry Fielding knows that he is a joke? I guess when what you say is devoid of truth, jokes are about as much as you have got to cover up your embarrassment.

By the way, DNA is forensic evidence. You are so ignorant of the facts the mind boggles. They don't make the jump from forensic to DNA because they don't need to because it does not exist.

Forensic science is any scientific field that is applied to the field of law. Forensic scientists are tasked with the collection, preservation, and analysis of scientific evidence (DNA) during the course of an investigation.

DNA. A nucleic acid that carries the genetic information in cells and some viruses, consisting of two long chains of nucleotides twisted into a double helix and joined by hydrogen bonds between the complementary bases adenine and thymine or cytosine and guanine.

Do you think that what I said implies that I think DNA evidence is not forensic evidence?

Oh you went to wikipedia for your forensics definition. That's telling.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,851,161
51,516
Guam
✟4,910,534.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Our ancestry with God is based on the experience of repentance and baptism on our part when we are ADOPTED into the family of God. As I am adopted I know what that means. My parents were not my biological parents. God is not my biological parent. He is my Dad because he adopted me into his family.
Indeed.

As we are fond of saying:

Adopted means SON PLACED ... not SON MADE.

The doctrine of adoption means God takes a person who is already born again and places him into His family.

The two acts, salvation & adoption, occur one after the other, and almost simultaneously.
 
Upvote 0

AnotherAtheist

Gimmie dat ol' time physical evidence
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2007
1,225
601
East Midlands
✟123,826.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
I don't explain the argument from functional redundancy of ubiquitous genes for the simple reason that a single happening is not the be all and end all of life. it is nothing more than a "gotcha" statement to try and justify your weird take on things.

You clearly haven't read and understood the evidence. There is no way that ubiquitous genes can be described as a 'single happening', there are very many of them, and they are in all of us. This is a typical creationist attempt to dismiss evidence without addressing the evidence in any way.

Perhaps you would like to tell me how life began? If you are an atheist that believes in evolution that should be an easy question to answer.

As is well known, we (as in humanity) do not know how life began. That doesn't mean that we should just make stuff up and believe it to be true. It is important for us to be aware of what we know and what we don't know, and one thing we don't know and how life began is one thing we don't know. There are different theories, e..g. Biblical creation or the RNA world, which live or die on their own merits. Biblical creation is falsified by evolution, so that one is ruled out. Other theories remain plausible.

Judging by your last question you are just another lazy atheist who refuses to do your own homework. There is so much evidence out there that the mind boggles. The only ones who do not see it are those that don't want to see it like the head atheist honcho here in Australia. He wrote an article in which he said miracles do not happen, which I happened to read. I sent him details of miracles that have happened. You know time, place, people involved, their phone number etc. Did he follow up on it all? Not on your life. He was happy in his ignorance and lies.

A few weeks ago we were told of young man who had been bashed in a fight and had hit his head on the ground and suffered brain damage. The hospital's prognosis was that he would be a vegetable for the rest of his life. God spoke to me and told me to go and pray for him. I went and took two of my Christian bothers with me. The hospital and the young man's parents welcomed our offer of prayer. We prayed and laid hands on him and put a prayer cloth under his pillow to continue the healing process. Our last report from the hospital is that he has regained consciousness is sitting up and talking.

That is objective evidence but I don't expect you to acknowledge the fact as you don't want evidence you want an argument.

I do want evidence and it is reasonable that you have given some. But, we have to see if it is possible that this occurrenced happened by natural means. A quick check will show that people with brain injuries do frequently wake up. E.g. http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/brain-injury-patient-wakes-sedative-article-1.2047561

There has been quite a lot of evidence that diagnosis of persistent vegetative state is often wrong. E.g. see this disussion:

http://discovermagazine.com/2011/mar/09-turning-vegetables-back-into-humans

Just a few years ago, a patient like Kellie would have been written off. Anyone who did not regain consciousness within a few weeks after a stroke or head injury was said to have no hope for meaningful improvement. But in the past decade, a series of increasingly spectacular experiments conducted by Giacino and Weill Cornell Medical Center neurologist Nicholas Schiff has proved that this bleak verdict is often wrong. The semiconscious brain is not a useless sack of neural goo, they have shown, and not all damaged brains are the same. Disorders of consciousness come in shades of gray, from severely impaired “vegetative states” to the perplexing “minimally conscious state” in which people slip into and out of awareness. By studying patients who emerge into consciousness after years in limbo, Schiff and Giacino have shown that the brain can sometimes fix itself even decades after damage. They have discovered apparently vegetative people whose minds can still imagine, still recognize, still respond. In turn, these profoundly disabled people have opened the door to one of the last great mysteries of science: the nature of consciousness.

Now, if you could show that prayer reliably and well above chance led to recovery from persistant vegetative state, then you would have evidence for God. About 66% of people in persistant vegetative state will die, and about 33% will recover. Are these 66% less likely to be prayed for than the 33%? Otherwise, your example above could simply be randomly one of the 33%.

Note, I'm not dismissing your evidence here. I"m just pointing out why it isn't strong evidence for God. And I'm pointing out what you need to do in order to make your evidence stronger. (Or disprove)

There has already been one experiment (at least) on the power of prayer. It found that people prayed for on average did not receive benefit compared to people who weren't prayed for.

A few weeks ago some of our young people went to Africa with one of our evangelists who specialises in healing. The young people got involved in the prayer for healing. Here is one story a young man told us at the meeting on Sunday. A man came forward and held out his hand. His fingers of one hand were all pointing back at him. They had been like that since birth. He lifted the man's hand up and as he prayed, the fingers unfurled and went out straight as normal.

That is objective evidence but I don't expect you to acknowledge it as you don't want evidence you want an argument.

Another young lady who had been deaf from birth was presented to a young lady in the team for prayer. She prayed for her and she heard for the first time.

There are many, many, claims of success by faith healing. However, when it is actually investigated in a robust way, it is found to be ineffective. You have heard a claim by someone who claimed to see a miracle. This is pretty much a classic example of hearsay.

If there were such miracles, then they should be very easy to verify. You could have the medical issues investigated before the faith healing event by qualified docotors. You could then have the faith healing event. And you could then have the cures validated by qualified doctors after the event. If all the claims of faith healing were true, then it would be trivial to establish its truth. Can you point me to any such study and its successful repitition showing that faith healing works, or is all you've got this hearsay? Note that it's important to confirm the medical condition before 'healing' as some cases of 'healing' have proved to be cases where the disease never existed in the first place. Other claimed improvements occur due to stress therapy - put the person into stress and the brain releases endorphins and other chemicals that reduce pain. Does the pain stay reduced when the person has fully calmed down?

As with the persistant vegetative state example, people do experience spontaneous remission or cure of medical problem, even when medical predictions are that this won't happen. With cancer for example, this is rare, and the evidence is that it happens through the immune system (though we don't understand exactly why and how). http://discovermagazine.com/2007/sep/the-body-can-stave-off-terminal-cancer-sometimes Because these remissions happen, it's important to separate remissions due to faith healing and remissions that may have occurred for a different reason.

If faith healing works billions around the world could be cured by the hand of God. Shouldn't that make it vitally important that faith healing submits itself to scientific measure and demonstrates that it works? The experiments are easy if there is any practically significant effect of faith healing.

That is objective evidence but I don't expect you to acknowledge it as you don't want evidence you want an argument. As I said there is plenty of evidence out there but cynicism and self righteousness prevents you from seeing any of it. If it doesn't fit in with your gospel according to scientific papers you are all at sea and unable to face reality.

I want strong objective evidence. I've been clear here to describe exactly what sort of evidence I want. What I don't want is hearsay or evidence that has alternate, natural, explanations. You've made a first step, but I've described why your evidence isn't strong, and described what sort of evidence would be stronger.

Note also that I have seriously addressed my evidence. At the top, you attempt to just dismiss my evidence of common descent without anything resembling a proper investigation of the evidence I provided.
 
Upvote 0

AnotherAtheist

Gimmie dat ol' time physical evidence
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2007
1,225
601
East Midlands
✟123,826.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Well it's hard to know where to begin as the book is stuffed full of descriptions about the problems that scientists have been and are continuing to have about how to come up with a coherent theory for the origin of the universe, without involving a deity. Even though it is only semi-technical, I must admit that much of it seems like sci-fi to me. Without going into detail about such things as Cosmological Constants and Horizon Problems, it seems clear that known physical laws were not in operation at the very beginning, so any model used to describe what happened at that stage must be purely speculative. Given that the search for the truth means that the seeker is probably wrong much more frequently than they are right, I don't have any faith that those who adhere to that idea for the origin of the universe have got it right and instead, I prefer to put my faith in the God of the Bible.

Clearly coming up with a coherent theory for the beginning of the universe is difficult, as we have limited access to the evidence. There is however some evidence of the big bang, e.g. discussed here, http://www.universetoday.com/106498/what-is-the-evidence-for-the-big-bang/, so it has gone beyond purely speculative.

You are free to choose whatever theory you prefer for your own reasons. However, if you claim that your view of the origin of the universe is true, and better than competing theories such as the big bang, then it's reasonable for others to ask you to justify your claim.

As in other posts, claims that God is the explanation for what we see requires that there is actually a God, and evidence for that claim. Another poster has answered my request for evidence of a God, but has provided examples of healing through prayer and faith healing as evidence. As I pointed out, for these to be strong objective evidence for God, the evidence needs to be collected through robust methods, rather than hearsay. Exactly the same request applies to you. The Big Bang Theory is far from being as likely as, say, the theories of gravity. However, there is some evidence for it.
 
Upvote 0

As I was saying

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2015
1,258
200
82
Drouin, Victoria, Australia
✟2,608.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Note, I'm not dismissing your evidence here. I"m just pointing out why it isn't strong evidence for God. And I'm pointing out what you need to do in order to make your evidence stronger. (Or disprove)

There has already been one experiment (at least) on the power of prayer. It found that people prayed for on average did not receive benefit compared to people who weren't prayed for.

There are many, many, claims of success by faith healing. However, when it is actually investigated in a robust way, it is found to be ineffective. You have heard a claim by someone who claimed to see a miracle. This is pretty much a classic example of hearsay.

If there were such miracles, then they should be very easy to verify. You could have the medical issues investigated before the faith healing event by qualified docotors. You could then have the faith healing event. And you could then have the cures validated by qualified doctors after the event. If all the claims of faith healing were true, then it would be trivial to establish its truth. Can you point me to any such study and its successful repetition showing that faith healing works, or is all you've got this hearsay? Note that it's important to confirm the medical condition before 'healing' as some cases of 'healing' have proved to be cases where the disease never existed in the first place. Other claimed improvements occur due to stress therapy - put the person into stress and the brain releases endorphins and other chemicals that reduce pain. Does the pain stay reduced when the person has fully calmed down?

I want strong objective evidence. I've been clear here to describe exactly what sort of evidence I want. What I don't want is hearsay or evidence that has alternate, natural, explanations. You've made a first step, but I've described why your evidence isn't strong, and described what sort of evidence would be stronger.

Note also that I have seriously addressed my evidence. At the top, you attempt to just dismiss my evidence of common descent without anything resembling a proper investigation of the evidence I provided.

Sorry I did not notice that you produced any evidence. All I saw was a desperate atheist trying to prove that he was right and everyone else is wrong. Seen that all over the place and to tell you the truth I am not impressed by your efforts as I have seen it all before and the majority of what is claimed by second hand atheists has been debunked by professors, Ph.Ds, and those that do not have closed minds. Atheists in general only see what they want to see and they want things to be as they want them to be, not as they are. That does not make for conclusive evidence.

As for your ridiculous claim that there had been ONE experiment on the power of prayer and it proved that people on average do not benefit from prayer. Tell me how many times you have seen evidence presented based on ONE event? It is like me saying that nearly all Ford cars are rubbish because I had ONE that was. If that is how you base research you are totally deluded.

Your cynicism speaks volumes in this statement....There are many, many, claims of success by faith healing. However, when it is actually investigated in a robust way, it is found to be ineffective. You have heard a claim by someone who claimed to see a miracle. This is pretty much a classic example of hearsay.

What you are saying is that all men and women are liars unless they can provide scientific evidence for healing. I know that the young man that prayed and saw the hand unfurled is not a liar because he is a christian under the tutelage of a man that has impeccable credentials and if it was a lie he would not allow it to be told. But it seems that your cynicism blinds you to the truth. Indeed, it prevents you from understanding what truth is. I would go as far as to say you have no idea of what truth is because you have decided that the lies of evolution are the truth because you want them to be.

You have dug yourself into a hole and are stuck there.

Another stupid comment born out of your failed ideology is "You could have the medical issues investigated before the faith healing event by qualified doctors" so let me put you into the picture and tell you a few home truths because it is obvious that your mindset is you in your small corner and I in mine.

We are talking about Africa. In most countries in Africa outside of the main cities there are no doctors so at the next crusade, would you like to finance the importation of medical doctors to investigate all the people that are going to attend. it will be costly because you first of all have to find who is going to attend so you will need a few hundred researchers to find them as they have a tendency to come from all over the place.

And then you will have to finance all the photographers who are going to take photos of all the sick and maimed people coming through the gates. Without this someone might be tempted to claim a healing that did not happen.Oh and you will need people to examine people as they come in to ensure they are not faking their sickness or injury. You know, just a bandage to give the impression something is wrong.

And then when it is all over you will have to go with the people healed to their village and ask their relatives as to whether in fact there was anything wrong with them in the first place. I say you need to do all this as it is obvious that you will not be convinced even if you saw the miracle happening in front of your very eyes. You would still say it was fake or an optical illusion.

if you would like to give me your name and email address, I will give it to the man with impeccable credentials and he can contact you and set out a plan that you can use to verify the validity of the miracles and how much it is going to cost you to get that evidence like the cost of shipping doctors from outside, visiting all the attendees before the crusade, the cost of the photographers who will take pictures to stop anyone faking it and so on.

if you are not prepared to do that you are the biggest charleton under the sun and all hot air.
 
Upvote 0

As I was saying

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2015
1,258
200
82
Drouin, Victoria, Australia
✟2,608.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Do you think that what I said implies that I think DNA evidence is not forensic evidence?

Oh you went to wikipedia for your forensics definition. That's telling.
It is very clear that your world goes no further than Wikipedia. When I did the research there were hundreds of sites that gave these same definitions. That is telling about the paucity to your research that you limit yourself to one site and have the idea there is no truth outside of Wikipedia.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

As I was saying

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2015
1,258
200
82
Drouin, Victoria, Australia
✟2,608.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Do you think that what I said implies that I think DNA evidence is not forensic evidence?

I don't think I know that is what you said but it does not surprise me as atheists I have found are experts at shooting from the lip.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AV1611VET
Upvote 0

As I was saying

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2015
1,258
200
82
Drouin, Victoria, Australia
✟2,608.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I want strong objective evidence.

Do you? Then how about this. I was standing in a prayer line next to a young man with one hand. I am sorry I should have photographed it for you so that you don't have to take my word for it. I didn't take my camera because I didn't know I was going to be standing in a prayer line next to a young man with only one hand.

When the guest speaker started praying for people to be healed I watched as this young man grew a second hand. I lifted his arm and touched the new hand and sure enough it was a real live hand. It wasn't a prosthetic that he slipped out of his sleeve to give the impression he had been healed. He flexed his fingers in and out and flapped his hand up and down as he was so excited. Well who wouldn't be. Then he flung his arms around me with both hands on the end shedding tears at such a wonderful miracle.

Of course there is no proof that this ever happened because I didn't get a doctor to examine him before the meeting to show that it was medically attested that he only had one hand. That would be very difficult as I did not know he was in the meeting as I had never met him before standing in the prayer line.

And then there is the lack of solid evidence because I saw it happen but the question is did anyone else? Perhaps not even though there were hundreds of people in the room and many standing in the vicinity of the young man when his hand grew but they did not write any scientific papers on the subject so they can't be believed.

And when the speaker asked people to come onto the stage if they had been healed the young man went up and explained what had happened. But of course we know he was lying as all he really wanted was public recognition for his fake miracle.

His parents were there as well so he asked them to come onto the stage and verify that the miracle had indeed taken place, which they did but of course in all probability the speaker paid them to say what they said as it would make him look good.

So you see, solid evidence is very hard to find especially when you are so cynical and no evidence is evidence unless it is backed up by a doctor who didn't see the miracle happen and the people concerned have written a paper about it that is peer reviewed in some scientific journal which does not have the slightest interest in the truth and when you believe that everyone is a liar unless he is an atheist.

P.S If this had been a court of law I would have been the main witness and I would have said I walked to the front and stood next to a young man with only one hand. When the speaker started praying for the sick I watched his hand grow. It was a miracle.

The next question would not have been "Have you written a peer reviewed article on the subject." In all probability it would have been "are you sure you saw it grow?" and my reply would have been "as sure as eggs are eggs I watched it grow."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,851,161
51,516
Guam
✟4,910,534.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If such a thing happened it would surely be headline news around the world.
Are you kidding?

That stuff is "second hand" anymore.

^_^ -- Ahem ... sorry ... carry on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jimmy D
Upvote 0

AnotherAtheist

Gimmie dat ol' time physical evidence
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2007
1,225
601
East Midlands
✟123,826.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Do you? Then how about this. I was standing in a prayer line next to a young man with one hand. I am sorry I should have photographed it for you so that you don't have to take my word for it. I didn't take my camera because I didn't know I was going to be standing in a prayer line next to a young man with only one hand.

When the guest speaker started praying for people to be healed I watched as this young man grew a second hand. I lifted his arm and touched the new hand and sure enough it was a real live hand. It wasn't a prosthetic that he slipped out of his sleeve to give the impression he had been healed. He flexed his fingers in and out and flapped his hand up and down as he was so excited. Well who wouldn't be. Then he flung his arms around me with both hands on the end shedding tears at such a wonderful miracle.

Of course there is no proof that this ever happened because I didn't get a doctor to examine him before the meeting to show that it was medically attested that he only had one hand. That would be very difficult as I did not know he was in the meeting as I had never met him before standing in the prayer line.

Thank you for the excellent example of why hearsay is not strong evidence. Anyone can claim that they witnessed anything whether true or not. Hearsay evidence can be true or false irrespective of whether the person telling it to us believes it to be true or not.

If the event actually happened as you described it, then this woud be strong objective evidence for a God. However, someone telling me they saw this, not so. Someone posting it on an internet forum, even less so.I do realise that you don't intend to claim that you saw this (or at least I guess that you don't), but it makes a good example.

I do appreciate that you have actually posted some evidence for God. What we need to do now is to look into the evidence to see if there are other possible explanations for it. We can also propose experiments to see which of several competing hypotheses is most likely to be true. This is the normal process that happens when someone provides evidence of something that would be groundbreaking.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
I don't have time to read fairy stories.

I don't have time to deal with people who refuse to address the scientific evidence.

I have read umpteen books on the subject already that have as their main aim the truth. Their authors without exception were Ph.Ds and they taught at places like Yale, Harvard, Oxford and Cambridge universities.

Which books have you read on the subjective of endogenous retroviruses and their use as genetic markers?
 
Upvote 0