A New Icon

[gzt]

First of all, LOVE the icon! Incredible! And very appropriate. My personal feeling is that if those holy, brave, loving martyrs don't make it to heaven, nobody will!

But I did read about this and wonder, how can Orthodox iconographers make an icon for Copts when Orthodoxy hasn't declared these martyrs saints yet? I have to wonder if the 20 plus brave martyrs had been Roman Catholics, would they get an icon?

The icon was made by a Copt and they were canonized in short order by the Copts (as is appropriate, since they were quite apparently martyrs for the faith - an open and shut case). This is the image used on the Copt web sites as the icon for them. So the icon itself is legitimate by those grounds. I do think it's wrong to co-opt others' saints officially - they didn't want to be a part of our church while they were alive, so don't try to make them part of our church now.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It is a separate line of litany (if I'm saying that right) in our liturgy. The mention of the kidnapped metropolitan and archbishop get their own "Lord have mercy" if that makes sense. One is OO and one is EO?

I'm sure Father didn't take it upon himself to change the liturgy. He's a stickler for that. But whoever suggested it, I'm very sure the Bishop has given his blessing.

If we are praying for an OO clergy by name, I'd be interested though. I truly do pray we can reach an understanding and heal that particular schism. I have a number of OO friends and have discussed things in detail with them, and sometimes it does seem we are not that far apart?

Regardless, I have great respect for the OOs, and I think they are our closest brethren. I would love to see us officially in communion.

And I love St. Isaac the Syrian.

 

[dzheremi]

That is how I also see it, Kylissa. When someone asks (usually an EO) what I see our relationship as being like, I say that we are the closest communions that nonetheless remain out of communion with one another. I'm sure that offends some EO sensibilities (seeming to divide the church into two parts or something; that is not something I have ever heard from our own leaders, thank God, and that is not what I mean), but I mean it in a practical sense, i.e., were I allowed to do so, if I were in a place with no OO church, I would naturally feel more comfortable worshiping in an EO church than in any other type. As some EO have said to me, the schism between us seems more resolvable (if not actually closer to resolution; that's beyond me to comment on) than the Great Schism between your church and the Latins, because the OO and EO often see in each other partners in the search for reunion who speak "the same language", or at least something very close relative to the approach of other Christian bodies. If I speak with an EO on these matters, even if they offend me or I offend them, I can trust that this is because we are both serious and committed to our relative stances. I just don't get that same level of seriousness from others who have degraded their liturgies, degraded their fasting, degraded their daily prayer rules, etc.

Anyway...just some thoughts on the general OO/EO topic. May the Lord protect us all and heal all schisms and deplorable divisions.

 

[ArmyMatt]

First of all, LOVE the icon! Incredible! And very appropriate. My personal feeling is that if those holy, brave, loving martyrs don't make it to heaven, nobody will!

But I did read about this and wonder, how can Orthodox iconographers make an icon for Copts when Orthodoxy hasn't declared these martyrs saints yet? I have to wonder if the 20 plus brave martyrs had been Roman Catholics, would they get an icon? Orthodoxy goes out of its way to say they "don't know" if people outside of the Eastern Orthodox faith are truly saints. Now, in reality, at a grass roots level, honestly, I don't know a lot of Orthodox who would feel it in their bones that St. Francis of Assisi WAS NOT a saint? Or the many other Catholic martyrs....and yet I think if the icon had Catholics, there'd be a stronger response.

I personally think this icon is lovely, but isn't it inconsistent with the usual Orthodox thinking on saints and icons? At my old Serb parish they wouldn't even pray for non-Orthodox. It was always "all Orthodox Christians in...." and they might pray the Ukrainians and Russians can get along, but that was about it.

It seems like the usual position is to not take a stand on non-EO stuff. I'm confused....

But I hope everyone understands I find this lovely and PERSONALLY don't have a problem.

while you would not find this in an Orthodox Church since the Copts are outside of our communion, I am sure there will be some personal devotion to them. my liturgics instructor has personal veneration for some Roman saints, so there is nothing wrong with having something like that in your personal prayer rule.

 

[E.C.]

So is Coptic Pope Tewadros II a EO patriarch according to your view?

Little as my opinion matters, no. I think you misunderstood my comments about the iconographers' world with ecclesiastical matters. Two separate things.

 

[SeventhValley]

while you would not find this in an Orthodox Church since the Copts are outside of our communion, I am sure there will be some personal devotion to them. my liturgics instructor has personal veneration for some Roman saints, so there is nothing wrong with having something like that in your personal prayer rule.

They are outside of the one church and therefore pagans. To have a personal devotion to pagans is no different that being pagan. As such even with the temporary high Easter gave me my faith has plummeted(not due to this board but due to real life events) as such I now dedicate myself to pagan pursuits so that I am hot or cold not lukewarm.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Seventh,

You're going off the deep end here and getting polemical. Come on. It seems like you're trying to rile up folks in here.

Look, I've been attending an Eastern Catholic mission for a couple of months now. I'm technically a "uniate sell-out" to some, an apostate dirt-bag. But nobody is calling me that. They might think it! (:o), but they haven't told me that.

Let's not put words in anyone's mouth. I will say since day one of my becoming Orthodox, I heard NOTHING BUT RESPECT toward the Copts in Orthodoxy. Some Copts would visit our parish and take their shoes off and come to worship. No communion, but worship. Afterward, folks were fighting over greeting these Egyptian folks. Lots of respect, dialogue, etc.

"Pagans" is NOT the term any Orthodox would use.

They are outside of the one church and therefore pagans. To have a personal devotion to pagans is no different that being pagan. As such even with the temporary high Easter gave me my faith has plummeted(not due to this board but due to real life events) as such I now dedicate myself to pagan pursuits so that I am hot or cold not lukewarm.

 

[gzt]

They are outside of the one church and therefore pagans. To have a personal devotion to pagans is no different that being pagan. As such even with the temporary high Easter gave me my faith has plummeted(not due to this board but due to real life events) as such I now dedicate myself to pagan pursuits so that I am hot or cold not lukewarm.

This is certainly not the teaching of Orthodoxy and I'm sorry if it has been represented to you as such. I hope that your post at least means that you're still seeking after the Kingdom of God, whether you're doing it with us or apart from us. Our Lord Himself said not to hinder those working in His name apart from the disciples, for whoever is not against Him is for Him.

 

[SeventhValley]

Sorry should have made it clearer. It is not Orthodoxy I have a problem with but Christianity. Anyways good luck hope your journey leads you to heaven.

 

[All4Christ]

They are outside of the one church and therefore pagans. To have a personal devotion to pagans is no different that being pagan. As such even with the temporary high Easter gave me my faith has plummeted(not due to this board but due to real life events) as such I now dedicate myself to pagan pursuits so that I am hot or cold not lukewarm.

Seventh - I'm sorry that things in your life have pushed down your faith!! I don't know what experiences you are referring to, but I know that many things in life have made me tempted to give up my faith. I'm glad that I pushed through it though, only by means of others supporting me to get through it all. I will pray for you, and I encourage you to try to keep the faith, despite what may happen around you.

 

[ArmyMatt]

They are outside of the one church and therefore pagans. To have a personal devotion to pagans is no different that being pagan. As such even with the temporary high Easter gave me my faith has plummeted(not due to this board but due to real life events) as such I now dedicate myself to pagan pursuits so that I am hot or cold not lukewarm.

no, no, no. they WERE outside of the Church, and Godwilling became members in their martyrdom and their trust in God. for some, the conversion is when they meet God face to face at their death. so while the Church cannot officially add them to the calendar, we always can commit them to His love and justice.

 

[Dorothea]

It's a beautiful icon.