A New Icon

[E.C.]

Remember the 21 Coptic Martyrs? There's an icon for them!

Tis here: 21 New Martyrs Icon (Coptic Christians Beheaded by ISIS) | Legacy Icons

A portion of the cost goes to supporting Coptic orphans.






(on a side OCD related not I did notice that the icon was "signed" which seems odd - regardless it is still a good icon)

 

[ArmyMatt]

Lord have mercy! may we have their prayers!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Remember the 21 Coptic Martyrs? There's an icon for them!

Tis here: 21 New Martyrs Icon (Coptic Christians Beheaded by ISIS) | Legacy Icons

A portion of the cost goes to supporting Coptic orphans.

(on a side OCD related not I did notice that the icon was "signed" which seems odd - regardless it is still a good icon)

Lord Have Mercy....

Praying

 

[dzheremi]

Lord have mercy.

I really appreciate how Tony Rizk made sure to portray the Ghanaian. Some Copts I have spoken to are not aware that they were not all Egyptians.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I was very sad to see a kind of eruption on Facebook against Legacy Icons for making the icon. No, we are not in communion with them, and yes the icon is signed but ... those are people who love Christ, and laid down their very lives rather than deny Him. I would never want to be upset by anyone honoring their sacrifice, nor make a show of saying they are not our brothers. I would certainly hope they are, because I believe their souls are now under the altar in heaven.

I appreciate the different sentiment shown here. Such an icon is one that should be appreciated, IMO.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

They are included in our Litanies during services.



Mary

 

[~Anastasia~]

They are included in our Litanies during services.



Mary

I need a "Like" button.

I'm guessing priests can add what is needed to the litany then? We always pray for the release and safe return of the Metropolitan and Archbishop who are being held.

 

[All4Christ]

I need a "Like" button. I'm guessing priests can add what is needed to the litany then? We always pray for the release and safe return of the Metropolitan and Archbishop who are being held.

I've heard debates over this. My husband's priest from a previous parish refused to add anything to the liturgy, including litanies. He said that the litanies already cover everyone in the wisdom of the early fathers writing the liturgy. I personally think it is fine within reason, especially if the bishop is ok with it. After all, they didn't know some of the current events when the liturgy was written...and they are prayers being added, not theology.

 

[SeventhValley]

From what I have learned non-Orthodox Christians are no better than pagans. So I find it odd the Orthodox would support a pagan icon.

 

[All4Christ]

From what I have learned non-Orthodox Christians are no better than pagans. So I find it odd the Orthodox would support a pagan icon.

I've heard that being martyred for faith in God is one of the greatest forms of confession and communion with God and Orthodoxy. Also, I would disagree with your statement regarding non-Orthodox Christians, though I know some may agree.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

First of all, LOVE the icon! Incredible! And very appropriate. My personal feeling is that if those holy, brave, loving martyrs don't make it to heaven, nobody will!

But I did read about this and wonder, how can Orthodox iconographers make an icon for Copts when Orthodoxy hasn't declared these martyrs saints yet? I have to wonder if the 20 plus brave martyrs had been Roman Catholics, would they get an icon? Orthodoxy goes out of its way to say they "don't know" if people outside of the Eastern Orthodox faith are truly saints. Now, in reality, at a grass roots level, honestly, I don't know a lot of Orthodox who would feel it in their bones that St. Francis of Assisi WAS NOT a saint? Or the many other Catholic martyrs....and yet I think if the icon had Catholics, there'd be a stronger response.

I personally think this icon is lovely, but isn't it inconsistent with the usual Orthodox thinking on saints and icons? At my old Serb parish they wouldn't even pray for non-Orthodox. It was always "all Orthodox Christians in...." and they might pray the Ukrainians and Russians can get along, but that was about it.

It seems like the usual position is to not take a stand on non-EO stuff. I'm confused....

But I hope everyone understands I find this lovely and PERSONALLY don't have a problem.

 

[~Anastasia~]

From what I have learned non-Orthodox Christians are no better than pagans. So I find it odd the Orthodox would support a pagan icon.

We do not presume to condemn anyone. Judgment is ALWAYS in the hands of a God. Just as being baptized Orthodox is no guarantee of salvation.

I think we have to remember that for a thousand years, not being part of the Church meant that you had either
1 - never heard the Gospel,
2 - been separated from the Church through heresy or schism, or
3 - deliberately rejected Christ and the Church.

When what we read comes from this mindset, I think it's important to remember that there were not all of the many denominations who do profess a faith in a Christ, believe in the words of Scripture (even if interpreted differently), and sincerely seek to follow God according to the best information they possess.

I'm not going to dare to judge such a one - if I do then personally, I know God to be and loving, and I know He loves them more even than I love my own child, and I do not think Him to be the kind of God that seeks to condemn people on a technicality. Not to mention that's not even a good picture of how I believe salvation works.

No, I do not condemn them also, because I would be worthy of the same condemnation for having judged someone else when it is NOT my place.

That's generally speaking. I know these are Copts, so not in communion. But we have another icon of martyrs, where at the last minute one of the persecutors, seeing how the Christians kept their faith, at the last minute joined them and was martyred along with them, and was counted among the martyrs.

So I think at the very least, we ought not condemn. Having died for their faith in Christ, I seriously do doubt that Christ would deny knowing them. The icon might not be proper for veneration or to belong inside an Orthodox Church (though I hear some Churches are planning to display them) ... but I don't like to hear some of the venom I gave heard just because Legacy made the icon.

My opinions, anyway.

 

[E.C.]

From what I have learned non-Orthodox Christians are no better than pagans. So I find it odd the Orthodox would support a pagan icon.

Hardly. In the last century the EO and OO have finally realized how close we really are to each other.

First of all, LOVE the icon! Incredible! And very appropriate. My personal feeling is that if those holy, brave, loving martyrs don't make it to heaven, nobody will!

But I did read about this and wonder, how can Orthodox iconographers make an icon for Copts when Orthodoxy hasn't declared these martyrs saints yet?
...
I personally think this icon is lovely, but isn't it inconsistent with the usual Orthodox thinking on saints and icons?

Free-market economy

Iconography is quite a gift, so I don't think it is unusual for EO and OO iconographers to write icons for each other provided that they're following Byzantine and Coptic rules of iconography.
Besides, Coptic Pope Tewadros II declared the martyrs saints within two weeks of their martyrdom.

 

[RileyG]

Holy Martyrs, pray for us.

 

[All4Christ]

First of all, LOVE the icon! Incredible! And very appropriate. My personal feeling is that if those holy, brave, loving martyrs don't make it to heaven, nobody will! But I did read about this and wonder, how can Orthodox iconographers make an icon for Copts when Orthodoxy hasn't declared these martyrs saints yet? I have to wonder if the 20 plus brave martyrs had been Roman Catholics, would they get an icon? Orthodoxy goes out of its way to say they "don't know" if people outside of the Eastern Orthodox faith are truly saints. Now, in reality, at a grass roots level, honestly, I don't know a lot of Orthodox who would feel it in their bones that St. Francis of Assisi WAS NOT a saint? Or the many other Catholic martyrs....and yet I think if the icon had Catholics, there'd be a stronger response. I personally think this icon is lovely, but isn't it inconsistent with the usual Orthodox thinking on saints and icons? At my old Serb parish they wouldn't even pray for non-Orthodox. It was always "all Orthodox Christians in...." and they might pray the Ukrainians and Russians can get along, but that was about it. It seems like the usual position is to not take a stand on non-EO stuff. I'm confused.... But I hope everyone understands I find this lovely and PERSONALLY don't have a problem.

Gurney - this doesn't fully answer it, but it does bear light on icons of those who aren't canonized and our view of the 21 Coptic Martyrs of ISIS

http://frlawrencefarley.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-coptic-martyrs-of-isis.html?m=1

 

[SeventhValley]

Hardly. In the last century the EO and OO have finally realized how close we really are to each other.


Free-market economy

Iconography is quite a gift, so I don't think it is unusual for EO and OO iconographers to write icons for each other provided that they're following Byzantine and Coptic rules of iconography.
Besides, Coptic Pope Tewadros II declared the martyrs saints within two weeks of their martyrdom.

So is Coptic Pope Tewadros II a EO patriarch according to your view?

 

[dzheremi]

I'm so glad we didn't already have basically this exact conversation in the last thread on the new martyrs. Oh, wait...we totally did. And there it was a person who is not a member of either communion driving the discussion in that direction, too. Hmmm.

Why do non-Orthodox seem to love this question so much? As someone actually in the Church that these martyrs have been blessed by, I am happy to know that at least some EO see something in their sacrificial witness worth honoring, even as they aren't officially on any EO calendar in the same way that they are in our (Coptic Orthodox) synaxarium now. If not all EO do so, that is okay. If all EO were to do so, that would be okay, too. It certainly does not tarnish the sacrifice and glory of the martyrs that they may or may not be recognized by everyone who has yet to make it to where we proclaim that they are now. We should be so lucky! Next to that, this reoccurring question is small-time thinking. Is it not enough that the EO themselves are fond of saying that they know where the Church is, but not where it is not? Because that's enough for me. We in the Coptic Orthodox Church also pray for the return of our (plural -- OO and EO) beloved bishops who have been kidnapped in Syria. Nobody from outside is going to tell us not to do that for the sake of making our ecclesiology more cut and dry in the context of conversations on the internet. What is next -- we will both (again, plural, as both OO and EO do this) have to stop venerating St. Isaac the Syrian because of his connection to the East Syrian church that both of our communions view as heretical? Because that's not happening either. The world is not so simple, I'm afraid. Perhaps one day this conversation won't come up anymore because our two communions will have united, but until then, I won't begrudge anyone or any individual church in the other communion for what they do or do not do. We know where we stand on these martyrs, and that is what is important. I do not think any EO is confused, either, although some who are not certainly seem to be.

 

[GregConstantine]

Seventhvalley is threaten by the claims of the Orthodox Church being the one true Church therefore he is trying to poke holes in our ecclesiology.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

I need a "Like" button.

I'm guessing priests can add what is needed to the litany then? We always pray for the release and safe return of the Metropolitan and Archbishop who are being held.

I've heard debates over this. My husband's priest from a previous parish refused to add anything to the liturgy, including litanies. He said that the litanies already cover everyone in the wisdom of the early fathers writing the liturgy. I personally think it is fine within reason, especially if the bishop is ok with it. After all, they didn't know some of the current events when the liturgy was written...and they are prayers being added, not theology.

Just to clarify:

1) it's actually not an additional Litany, just that they are mentioned by name in the petition for those who have reposed, along with our Abp. Dmitri, our priests and others

2) we also pray during the Litany for the kidnapped Archbishops, and others being persecuted around the world (with several being named specifically).

I don't think the Priest can just add to the Litanies on his own. I know sometimes the Metropolitan asks the parishes to add these to the Litanies. I'm not sure it that's the case with this or not. I've actually wondered about it, since they are OO.

Mary

 

[All4Christ]

Just to clarify: 1) it's actually not an additional Litany, just that they are mentioned by name in the petition for those who have reposed, along with our Abp. Dmitri, our priests and others 2) we also pray during the Litany for the kidnapped Archbishops, and others being persecuted around the world (with several being named specifically). I don't think the Priest can just add to the Litanies on his own. I know sometimes the Metropolitan asks the parishes to add these to the Litanies. I'm not sure it that's the case with this or not. I've actually wondered about it, since they are OO. Mary

I think you are right about priests not being able to just decide to include something else (I could be wrong though). I do think it is ok to add it if you are directed to do so, which in the case of this priest I mentioned above, he refused to add any even if instructed by those in higher positions than him. I'm sure if he was directly told that he had to add it in, he would - but if he was encouraged to do so but not directly told to do it - he would skip adding it in.