A Large Number of Single Women Are Leaving the Church. Why?

[chevyontheriver]

Yes I have decided this. I must be allowed to remarry. It's either that or engage in sex outside marriage. I know what you're thinking: celibacy and I are simply not compatible, so don't go there. I committed no crime that I should be condemned to celibacy for the rest of my life.

Where does this go against what Jesus taught? Some people interpret His words at Matthew 19:9 (and the equivalent verses in Mark 10 and Luke 16) as saying absolute no divorce allowed (or no remarriage) except under rate circumstances. But I don't read His words that way. That may be the position of many denominations and churches, but that is not my position on the matter.

My position: One man dumps a faithful wife just so he could run off with some OnlyFans model. Another man put up with years of abuse and neglect before divorcing his wife, then married a better woman five years later. It is the actions of the man in the first scenario, not the second, that Jesus condemned as tantamount to adultery. I would offer no defense to the man in the first scenario. That kind of behavior is cruel and dishonorable. But I see no such sin in the actions of the man in the second scenario.

If I was simply twisting Scripture to fit some sinful lifestyle, then God would not be fooled. God isn't an idiot - He knows a lame-brained excuse to sin when He sees one. But this is not what I'm doing. I have solid substantive reasons to reject the marriage permanence doctrine as contrary to Scripture.

The Catholic position is this: You gave your word to a permanent union. You bound yourself to it.

You might claim you didn’t know what you were getting yourself into, which might be true. You might claim she hid something of her true self from you so your decision to marry her was under false pretenses, which might be true. There might be grounds for this marriage being impossible from day zero.

If not, you gave your word, you became by your mutual consent one flesh, and taking up with anyone else does violence to what you vowed.

Were your vows flawed from the beginning? The Catholic Church has a path for that. You can seek an annulment. Were your vows real? The path there is either reconciliation or continence as long as she lives. It is not to blow off your vows, because your word is your bond.

You say you ‘must’ be allowed to remarry. There are many Protestant groups that will happily oblige you. Or you can just go to the courthouse. But you will have bypassed a sane option if you do not at least pursue a Catholic annulment and look at the Catholic understanding of marriage. Take or leave it. Don’t pretend Jesus was not firm about marriage. He was. That may not mean a one to one correspondence with the Protestant folks who ‘excommunicated’ you.

 

[Michie]

I've heard similar things from women on my dance team (ages usually around 25-40). Salsa dance is a couple's dance, so it tends to attract young men with that motivation. But these guys don't last long as they lack the drive or patience to improve on their dancing technique. They usually get frustrated and leave because the women can sense that desperation from a mile away. I suspect the reasons are similar for guys like that in church.

One of the ladies on my team said she didn't like the pressure that kind of thing brings. Would that be similar in a church setting?

Not really. It’s sort of expected at a salsa dancing class.

It’s just distracting and an irritation in Church. Nobody likes to feel preyed upon in Church.

 

[ZephBonkerer]

The Catholic position is this: You gave your word to a permanent union. You bound yourself to it.

You might claim you didn’t know what you were getting yourself into, which might be true. You might claim she hid something of her true self from you so your decision to marry her was under false pretenses, which might be true. There might be grounds for this marriage being impossible from day zero.

If not, you gave your word, you became by your mutual consent one flesh, and taking up with anyone else does violence to what you vowed.

Were your vows flawed from the beginning? The Catholic Church has a path for that. You can seek an annulment. Were your vows real? The path there is either reconciliation or continence as long as she lives. It is not to blow off your vows, because your word is your bond.

You say you ‘must’ be allowed to remarry. There are many Protestant groups that will happily oblige you. Or you can just go to the courthouse. But you will have bypassed a sane option if you do not at least pursue a Catholic annulment and look at the Catholic understanding of marriage. Take or leave it. Don’t pretend Jesus was not firm about marriage. He was. That may not mean a one to one correspondence with the Protestant folks who ‘excommunicated’ you.

That may be the Catholic position, but it is not my position.

Nobody ever makes a vow to be abused, neglected, cheated on, etc. These actions by a spouse are a violation of the terms of any reasonable marital covenant. I did not sign up for this.

The actions and decisions of my former wife made the marriage unviable. I was adamant that I would not stand for being forced to either continue to put up with her sins or be condemned to celibacy. I have no place in any church assembly where I would be forced into either of these. Such is a burden I simply cannot and will not bear.

I pursued reconciliation at first, but to no avail. My former church assembly elders wanted me to pursue reconciliation reconciliation reconciliation. Until when? Until I die of old age? Until my ex petitions the Courts for a restraining order against me? When would they accept that the marriage is over, as I did? Of course I told them I would do no such thing, and they gave me the boot for it.

I really believe God is blasphemed whenever a battered wife is pressured into staying with a known abuser by any church leadership. Men who treat their wives this way deserve death via some kind of Mortal Kombat fatality.

 

[Michie]

That may be the Catholic position, but it is not my position.

Nobody ever makes a vow to be abused, neglected, cheated on, etc. These actions by a spouse are a violation of the terms of any reasonable marital covenant. I did not sign up for this.

The actions and decisions of my former wife made the marriage unviable. I was adamant that I would not stand for being forced to either continue to put up with her sins or be condemned to celibacy. I have no place in any church assembly where I would be forced into either of these. Such is a burden I simply cannot and will not bear.

I pursued reconciliation at first, but to no avail. My former church assembly elders wanted me to pursue reconciliation reconciliation reconciliation. Until when? Until I die of old age? Until my ex petitions the Courts for a restraining order against me? When would they accept that the marriage is over, as I did? Of course I told them I would do no such thing, and they gave me the boot for it.

I really believe God is blasphemed whenever a battered wife is pressured into staying with a known abuser by any church leadership. Men who treat their wives this way deserve death via some kind of Mortal Kombat fatality.

That type of situation it could be easily annulled and both parties could move on. And no, the children if there were any would not be illegitimate.

 

[ZephBonkerer]

That type of situation it could be easily annulled and both parties could move on. And no, the children if there were any would not be illegitimate.

I would not be comfortable with annulment as a remedy for these reasons:

Annulment seems to imply that it was never a valid marriage in the first place. I don't dispute the validity of the marriage. I'm only making a statement that the marriage had to end.

Although the Church would likely grant an annulment in such a case, what if they don't? I've come across way too many stories where the church elders would refuse to credit the merits of a divorce even in the most compelling of cases. As if God values the marriage institution above those in it.

When my marriage was in jeopardy, I told my then wife that the things that were destroying the marriage had to stop or the marriage had to end. One of those things had to happen. I would not accept any less than an absolute guarantee that one of those things would occur.

Edit: this may be another example of me setting the rules, and I know not everyone is comfortable with that. But I am free to do so. I am free to decide what I will and will not accept

 

[Michie]

I would not be comfortable with annulment as a remedy for these reasons:

Annulment seems to imply that it was never a valid marriage in the first place. I don't dispute the validity of the marriage. I'm only making a statement that the marriage had to end.

Although the Church would likely grant an annulment in such a case, what if they don't? I've come across way too many stories where the church elders would refuse to credit the merits of a divorce even in the most compelling of cases. As if God values the marriage institution above those in it.

When my marriage was in jeopardy, I told my then wife that the things that were destroying the marriage had to stop or the marriage had to end. One of those things had to happen. I would not accept any less than an absolute guarantee that one of those things would occur.

Edit: this may be another example of me setting the rules, and I know not everyone is comfortable with that. But I am free to do so. I am free to decide what I will and will not accept

Accept what you want. A valid marriage does not include abuse. Look up annulment in the Catholic Church from a Catholic source if interested. I know since you joined CF you have discussed your previous marriage, what you will or will not put up with, sex, etc. We get it already. I see no reason to discuss it further because you already said you are not and could not be Catholic. So why discuss it with a bunch of Catholics? Our Church teaches as she teaches. Your opinions and our teachings will not come to agreement. Good luck on your search.

 

[ZephBonkerer]

Not really. It’s sort of expected at a salsa dancing class.

It’s just distracting and an irritation in Church. Nobody likes to feel preyed upon in Church.

I thought about this. I believe we are doing an awful job of teaching young men how to interact with women in this way. Many of them get advice based on dubious generalizations or worse.

A lot of this would include gaining an understanding of things like emotional availability, attraction, managing emotions, etc. This stuff does not come easy to most people in their 40s, much less men in their early or mid 20s.

 

[ZephBonkerer]

Accept what you want. A valid marriage does not include abuse. Look up annulment in the Catholic Church from a Catholic source if interested. I know since you joined CF you have discussed your previous marriage, what you will or will not put up with, sex, etc. We get it already. I see no reason to discuss it further because you already said you are not and could not be Catholic. So why discuss it with a bunch of Catholics? Our Church teaches as she teaches. Your opinions and our teachings will not come to agreement. Good luck on your search.

I didn't mean to be all strident on the matter. My apologies there. I provided input on this thread before understanding that the focus was on the Catholic Church. I wasn't trying to debate Catholic doctrine.

 

[Michie]

I didn't mean to be all strident on the matter. My apologies there. I provided input on this thread before understanding that the focus was on the Catholic Church. I wasn't trying to debate Catholic doctrine.

I know you weren’t. I’m not at my best today. My dog died this morning. Forgive me.

 

[FaithT]

I know you weren’t. I’m not at my best today. My dog died this morning. Forgive me.

Oh Michie, I’m so, so sorry

 

[chevyontheriver]

That may be the Catholic position, but it is not my position.

Ok. You think your position is better.

Nobody ever makes a vow to be abused, neglected, cheated on, etc. These actions by a spouse are a violation of the terms of any reasonable marital covenant. I did not sign up for this.

Nobody does. We can leave abusive relationships. Your people apparently didn’t allow that, preferring abuse to divorce. And preferring to kick you out rather than consider they might not see the whole picture. That’s not a Catholic way.

The actions and decisions of my former wife made the marriage unviable. I was adamant that I would not stand for being forced to either continue to put up with her sins or be condemned to celibacy. I have no place in any church assembly where I would be forced into either of these. Such is a burden I simply cannot and will not bear.

Some people just can’t imagine sexual continence.

I pursued reconciliation at first, but to no avail. My former church assembly elders wanted me to pursue reconciliation reconciliation reconciliation. Until when? Until I die of old age? Until my ex petitions the Courts for a restraining order against me? When would they accept that the marriage is over, as I did? Of course I told them I would do no such thing, and they gave me the boot for it.

That’s them.

I really believe God is blasphemed whenever a battered wife is pressured into staying with a known abuser by any church leadership. Men who treat their wives this way deserve death via some kind of Mortal Kombat fatality.

Again, that’s them.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Annulment seems to imply that it was never a valid marriage in the first place.

Exactly.

I don't dispute the validity of the marriage.

Maybe you should. Or at least question it.

Although the Church would likely grant an annulment in such a case, what if they don't? I've come across way too many stories where the church elders would refuse to credit the merits of a divorce even in the most compelling of cases. As if God values the marriage institution above those in it.

Catholic marriage tribunals aren’t perfect but your issue seems to be your old Protestant congregation.

Edit: this may be another example of me setting the rules, and I know not everyone is comfortable with that. But I am free to do so. I am free to decide what I will and will not accept

We’re all free to be our own masters. We are all free to say ‘non serviam’. Because we have free will.

Look. I understand now some of the pain you have been feeling. Sorry that I was the reason some more pain got dredged up. I can’t undo your Protestant congregation excommunicating you. Or the things your wife did. In the end we get to follow Jesus and He will bring us eventually to some healing.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I know you weren’t. I’m not at my best today. My dog died this morning. Forgive me.

Sorry to hear about your dog. We get very attached to them. They become part of the family.

Our bloke turned twelve sometime last month, so he's well and truly into his doggy senior years. He's starting to show a few signs of slowing down and old age.

Like his owners!

 

[Michie]

Sorry to hear about your dog. We get very attached to them. They become part of the family.

Our bloke turned twelve sometime last month, so he's well and truly into his doggy senior years. He's starting to show a few signs of slowing down and old age.

Like his owners!

Yes. Losing a pet is tough. Some more than others.

 

[FaithT]

Yes. Losing a pet is tough. Some more than others.

I still miss the dog I grew up with, Fluffy, and she died in 1975 or so.