A Lack of foundational Scripture

[franky67]

Here is an example of a belief which has no scripture to back it up
This person is well known for his criticism of the theology of healing which is taught at Rhema, in Tulsa, as well as his criticism of all charismatic theology.

This is the mindset of those who believe in a limited atonement.

"Now in closing, I simply say, I want to reiterate that I believe God can heal, God can do anything He wants to do. I do not believe the gift of healing is for today because it was to authenticate the Biblical message and messenger. That is in place; it needs no more authentication then the authentication given to it by the Spirit of God to the heart of the reader, but I do believe that God may in His grace chose to heal, and we have every right to pray for that, at the same time seek the finest medical help that we can because the Lord desires us to do that as well. "

The statement underlined is not taught in the scriptures, it is clear all through the bible, that healing from God to HIS own, is through promises He has made, not by God's decision at the time, whether He wants to heal or not.

There is no teaching that describes a God who says to HIS own people, whether in the old testament, or the new, "I heal by my Grace, when and if I decide to, I am sovereign, I do what I want to "

No teaching that even resembles anything like this .

I believe this to be the "missing plank" in the cessationism platform.

God has always, since Abraham, been a covenant making, and keeping God, to His own.

If, as the quote above says, God may decide to heal one who asks, does He do it through His son Jesus, or is Jesus left out of the picture completely.?

You see there is no pathway of Healing from God to His people, except through Jesus.

 

[Optimax]

Here is an example of a belief which has no scripture to back it up
This person is well known for his criticism of the theology of healing which is taught at Rhema, in Tulsa, as well as his criticism of all charismatic theology.

This is the mindset of those who believe in a limited atonement.

"Now in closing, I simply say, I want to reiterate that I believe God can heal, God can do anything He wants to do. I do not believe the gift of healing is for today because it was to authenticate the Biblical message and messenger. That is in place; it needs no more authentication then the authentication given to it by the Spirit of God to the heart of the reader, but I do believe that God may in His grace chose to heal, and we have every right to pray for that, at the same time seek the finest medical help that we can because the Lord desires us to do that as well. "

The statement underlined is not taught in the scriptures, it is clear all through the bible, that healing from God to HIS own, is through promises He has made, not by God's decision at the time, whether He wants to heal or not.

There is no teaching that describes a God who says to HIS own people, whether in the old testament, or the new, "I heal by my Grace, when and if I decide to, I am sovereign, I do what I want to "

No teaching that even resembles anything like this .

I believe this to be the "missing plank" in the cessationism platform.

God has always, since Abraham, been a covenant making, and keeping God, to His own.

If, as the quote above says, God may decide to heal one who asks, does He do it through His son Jesus, or is Jesus left out of the picture completely.?

You see there is no pathway of Healing from God to His people, except through Jesus.

Amen!

Just like being saved it has to be received.

 

[dkbwarrior]

Here is an example of a belief which has no scripture to back it up
This person is well known for his criticism of the theology of healing which is taught at Rhema, in Tulsa, as well as his criticism of all charismatic theology.

This is the mindset of those who believe in a limited atonement.

"Now in closing, I simply say, I want to reiterate that I believe God can heal, God can do anything He wants to do. I do not believe the gift of healing is for today because it was to authenticate the Biblical message and messenger. That is in place; it needs no more authentication then the authentication given to it by the Spirit of God to the heart of the reader, but I do believe that God may in His grace chose to heal, and we have every right to pray for that, at the same time seek the finest medical help that we can because the Lord desires us to do that as well. "

The statement underlined is not taught in the scriptures, it is clear all through the bible, that healing from God to HIS own, is through promises He has made, not by God's decision at the time, whether He wants to heal or not.

There is no teaching that describes a God who says to HIS own people, whether in the old testament, or the new, "I heal by my Grace, when and if I decide to, I am sovereign, I do what I want to "

No teaching that even resembles anything like this .

I believe this to be the "missing plank" in the cessationism platform.

God has always, since Abraham, been a covenant making, and keeping God, to His own.

If, as the quote above says, God may decide to heal one who asks, does He do it through His son Jesus, or is Jesus left out of the picture completely.?

You see there is no pathway of Healing from God to His people, except through Jesus.

You hit the nail on the head Franky.

God has always been and always will be, a God of covenant. He is not a capricious Father who changes His mind day by day on what He may or may not want to give you. Nor is He a repsecter of persons, who may give you something, but withold it from me.

He is a God of Covenant, that is who He is.

Peace...

 

[hislegacy]

No, I don't think John MacArthur is missing a plank - he is a strict cessationist and steeped in that doctrine.

His foundation is very deep and very firm, however, IMHO very off.

 

[Faulty]

Do you really need John 5 pointed out again where were multitudes of invalids at the pool and Jesus walks up there and heals one single guy then leaves?

Do you deny Jesus chose who to heal and who not to heal there, and didn't Jesus come up there led of the Spirit on that particular day, by His will, and not the day, week, or month before?

Or how about His raising of Lazarus? He heard the news of his illness and the requests to heal him. For His own purposes of glorification, He chose to wait until Lazarus was dead before acting on the request. Even when he arrived, the request was no longer made of Him to heal, they didn't ask Him to do so at that point, but rather He raised Lazarus on His own accord, by His on will.

He was there when He wanted to be there, and doing what He saw fit to do. You almost have to try to miss this stuff.

 

[franky67]

Do you really need John 5 pointed out again where were multitudes of invalids at the pool and Jesus walks up there and heals one single guy then leaves?

Do you deny Jesus chose who to heal and who not to heal there, and didn't Jesus come up there led of the Spirit on that particular day, by His will, and not the day, week, or month before?

Or how about His raising of Lazarus? He heard the news of his illness and the requests to heal him. For His own purposes of glorification, He chose to wait until Lazarus was dead before acting on the request. Even when he arrived, the request was no longer made of Him to heal, they didn't ask Him to do so at that point, but rather He raised Lazarus on His own accord, by His on will.

He was there when He wanted to be there, and doing what He saw fit to do. You almost have to try to miss this stuff.

These are examples to speculate on, Faulty, they do not provide foundation on which to build a doctrine on.

Did Jesus ever teach a doctrine of the points you make ? No, but you choose to.

So to be on the safe side, we must form our doctrine based on the full teaching of Jesus.

He told the apostles "heal the sick, raise the dead, and tell them the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Jesus did not teach his gospel by using those two examples.

 

[TasManOfGod]

Anybody who says "by His Stripes we were healed" is not plain enough and prefer non existent scripture in it's place have a serious attitude toward truth problem

 

[Faulty]

These are examples to speculate on, Faulty, they do not provide foundation on which to build a doctrine on.

Did Jesus ever teach a doctrine of the points you make ? No, but you choose to.

So to be on the safe side, we must form our doctrine based on the full teaching of Jesus.

He told the apostles "heal the sick, raise the dead, and tell them the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Jesus did not teach his gospel by using those two examples.

But He did show us His nature, which is what you are questioning.

Does your understanding of theology allow for Jesus to do those things He did then, today as well? He clearly did them.

If not, why not?

 

[Faulty]

Anybody who says "by His Stripes we were healed" is not plain enough and prefer non existent scripture in it's place have a serious attitude toward truth problem

I do know the text, and I also know the text surrounding that text. Do you?

 

[dkbwarrior]

Do you really need John 5 pointed out again where were multitudes of invalids at the pool and Jesus walks up there and heals one single guy then leaves?

Do you deny Jesus chose who to heal and who not to heal there, and didn't Jesus come up there led of the Spirit on that particular day, by His will, and not the day, week, or month before?

Or how about His raising of Lazarus? He heard the news of his illness and the requests to heal him. For His own purposes of glorification, He chose to wait until Lazarus was dead before acting on the request. Even when he arrived, the request was no longer made of Him to heal, they didn't ask Him to do so at that point, but rather He raised Lazarus on His own accord, by His on will.

He was there when He wanted to be there, and doing what He saw fit to do. You almost have to try to miss this stuff.

The gifts of the Spirit operate as the Spirit wills and are for the express purpose of confiming the word, and proving that Jesus is the living Messiah. Very few will be healed this way, by the gifts of the Spirit. That is the reason for such examples.

But healing by faith is available to everyone, like the woman who touched the hem of His garment, when He didn't even know who she was. As He told her, "Thy faith hath made thee whole, go in peace." And that kind of healing is available to every believer as our covenant inheritance IN HIM!

Peace...

 

[TasManOfGod]

I do know the text, and I also know the text surrounding that text. Do you?

Yes I refer to the un-convoluted understanding from 2 Peter and from its origin in Isaiah of course

 

[hislegacy]

Do you really need John 5 pointed out again where were multitudes of invalids at the pool and Jesus walks up there and heals one single guy then leaves?

Why didn't anyone else ask? Every instance where a multitude came to Him for healing, the multitude was healed. No one else asked - did they?

Do you deny Jesus chose who to heal and who not to heal there, and didn't Jesus come up there led of the Spirit on that particular day, by His will, and not the day, week, or month before?

Yes, I deny it 150% and more. That is not supported in scripture without adding to it. And I just will not do that.

Or how about His raising of Lazarus? He heard the news of his illness and the requests to heal him. For His own purposes of glorification, He chose to wait until Lazarus was dead before acting on the request. Even when he arrived, the request was no longer made of Him to heal, they didn't ask Him to do so at that point, but rather He raised Lazarus on His own accord, by His on will.

Lazarus was dead and in the grave for two days by the time Jesus heard of it. That has been shown plainly in scripture and shown here numerous times.

He was there when He wanted to be there, and doing what He saw fit to do. You almost have to try to miss this stuff.

No, Jesus did nothing that the Father didn't show Him. He NEVER said no or wait to someone who asked for healing. That is scripture and quite plainly shown.

You have to add stuff to miss it.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Jesus never said no to a single sick person.
Jesus showed us the exact picture of what the Father is like because He is in the Father and the Father in Him.
He is the One True God.
We can trust the life and ministry of Jesus to show us the nature and will of the Father.
He came to show us the Father. I believe He was successful.
This is part of what makes us believers.

 

[FoundInGrace]

Jesus never said no to a single sick person.
Jesus showed us the exact picture of what the Father is like because He is in the Father and the Father in Him.
He is the One True God.
We can trust the life and ministry of Jesus to show us the nature and will of the Father.
He came to show us the Father. I believe He was successful.
This is part of what makes us believers.

Jesus made people wait (Lazarus, Jairus's daughter, the Canaanite woman etc)
God is Sovereign, in His perfect timing He will heal anyone - believer or not.

God healed in the OT, the NT before and after the Cross in the same way.

The Cross was about being healed from a broken relationship with God caused by sin. The Cross doesnt change our access to healing - we have always had access to healing from God - believer or not - we have always been able to ask Him for healing and it has always been His decision.

God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

 

[Faulty]

Yes I refer to the un-convoluted understanding from 2 Peter and from its origin in Isaiah of course

Ditto.

 

[Faulty]

Why didn't anyone else ask? Every instance where a multitude came to Him for healing, the multitude was healed. No one else asked - did they?

Dunno, doesn't say if anyone up there asked or not, with the exception of the man He healed that day. He didn't ask. Jesus just did it on His own. This is actually a place wher you have to add to the text to state no one else asked. It can't be proven either way.

In these lay a multitude of invalids—blind, lame, and paralyzed. One man was there who had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him lying there and knew that he had already been there a long time, he said to him, [COLOR=windowtext !important]“Do you want to be healed?”[/color]
John 5:3-6
​

Yes, I deny it 150% and more. That is not supported in scripture without adding to it. And I just will not do that.

That's fine. Review the text again when you have time. This man stood before the authorities and was grilled by them and refered to as "the man" (singular) who was healed that day.

So the Jews said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to take up your bed.”
John 5:10

Now the man who had been healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, as there was a crowd in the place.
John 5:13
​

Lazarus was dead and in the grave for two days by the time Jesus heard of it. That has been shown plainly in scripture and shown here numerous times.

It shows He waited longer until Lazerus was dead.

So, when he heard that Lazarus was ill, he stayed two days longer in the place where he was.
John 11:6
​

No, Jesus did nothing that the Father didn't show Him. He NEVER said no or wait to someone who asked for healing. That is scripture and quite plainly shown.

You have to add stuff to miss it.

You mean like everything else you think you've shown me?

And the Father had Him wait, and selectively heal, as scripture shows.

 

[Faulty]

The gifts of the Spirit operate as the Spirit wills and are for the express purpose of confiming the word, and proving that Jesus is the living Messiah. Very few will be healed this way, by the gifts of the Spirit. That is the reason for such examples.

But healing by faith is available to everyone, like the woman who touched the hem of His garment, when He didn't even know who she was. As He told her, "Thy faith hath made thee whole, go in peace." And that kind of healing is available to every believer as our covenant inheritance IN HIM!

Peace...

I've never denied healing, just the "now, everyone, all the time" approach. Don't ever think I'm denying God's ability or desire to heal, but rather denying to approach of some towards that healing.

 

[Faulty]

Again, if your current theology won't allow for God to wait to respond to your healing requests until the time is appropriate for Him to receive the most glory, like for Lazarus, or to selectively heal one and not others, like the multitude at the pool, then your theology needs to be modified.

If someone came up to your pulpit and gave a testimony in their lives, matching the details of these accounts as it pertains to the action of God, and you wouldn't be able to receive it fully, then your theology needs to be modified.

If you'd be more comfortable if these verses were not in scripture, then your theology needs to be modified.

It's that simple.

 

[JimB]

Here is an example of a belief which has no scripture to back it up
This person is well known for his criticism of the theology of healing which is taught at Rhema, in Tulsa, as well as his criticism of all charismatic theology.

This is the mindset of those who believe in a limited atonement.

"Now in closing, I simply say, I want to reiterate that I believe God can heal, God can do anything He wants to do. I do not believe the gift of healing is for today because it was to authenticate the Biblical message and messenger. That is in place; it needs no more authentication then the authentication given to it by the Spirit of God to the heart of the reader, but I do believe that God may in His grace chose to heal, and we have every right to pray for that, at the same time seek the finest medical help that we can because the Lord desires us to do that as well. "

The statement underlined is not taught in the scriptures, it is clear all through the bible, that healing from God to HIS own, is through promises He has made, not by God's decision at the time, whether He wants to heal or not.

There is no teaching that describes a God who says to HIS own people, whether in the old testament, or the new, "I heal by my Grace, when and if I decide to, I am sovereign, I do what I want to "

No teaching that even resembles anything like this .

I believe this to be the "missing plank" in the cessationism platform.

God has always, since Abraham, been a covenant making, and keeping God, to His own.

If, as the quote above says, God may decide to heal one who asks, does He do it through His son Jesus, or is Jesus left out of the picture completely.?

You see there is no pathway of Healing from God to His people, except through Jesus.

If I recall, Paul recommended a little wine for Timothy's frequent stomach ailments (i.e., oft infirmities). I am sure they prayed for Timothy (after all they were Christians), and they probably had done so many times, but until the healing came a little wine for the stomach's sake would relieve the symptoms. Ooops, that does sound like "pragmatism"," doesn't it? But there it is in 1 Timothy 5.23.

Of course, Paul could have recommended that Timothy just "claim his healing" and continue to suffer through the pain.

~Jim

 

[Leimeng]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']~ I would like to recommend that a lot of you drink a little bit (glass or two a day) of wine. (Not grape juice.) [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']~ Notice that Paul wanted Timothy saved and was not concerned about how it happened. The cessationist heresy basically says that God does not want people healed, so you need to go around God's provision by going to doctors. [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']~ One should not be afraid to go to doctors for diagnosis of problems and relief of symptoms, just as as one should not be afraid to recognize that all true healing comes from God! God will use allopaths, chiropractors, acupunturists and OMDs to help you get better or at least control symptoms. [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']~ Since sickness on the earth is a result of the curse, and the Bible teaches that we have been redeemed from the curse by the Blood of Jesus, it is puerile to deny that God's will it is heal. [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']~ Cessationism teaches a false Christ in complete contradition to God's Word. It is a cultic satanic teaching as despicable as mormonism or islam. It must be rejected and (for those who teach it) repented of.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves....[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Peace,[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']
Leimeng[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'](***Insert Personal One Liner Here***)[/FONT]