A global flood is simply untenable

[The Barbarian]

I have to admit though that lately, the last week or so. RD has not been doing it like he was.

Hopefully, that will start to turn things around for him.

 

[Diamond7]

The global flood took place at the time of Pangea. Noah's flood is a shadow and a type. Man is a part of a biodiverse eco system and if you want to save man you have to save the whole ecology that supports him. That is what Noah did. He saved the plants and animals that were in Eden. Science can verify all of this when man went from a hunter gather to a food producer. The more food you can produce the more people you can sustain.

 

[The Barbarian]

The global flood took place at the time of Pangea.

That would be impossible, assuming it took place a few thousand years ago. The simplest debunking has to do with physics. You see, the mass of all the continents would have to be accelerated to miles per year, and then accelerated downward to today's observed rates. That energy would have to be released as heat. And that would boil the oceans. Would you like to see the math for that?

Man is a part of a biodiverse eco system and if you want to save man you have to save the whole ecology that supports him.

That makes no sense. Humans in pre-industrial times lived in all sorts of ecologies and managed to survive and thrive in them all. So that assumption is falsified by observed facts.

That is what Noah did. He saved the plants and animals that were in Eden.

That would be pretty hard, since Noah was not able to be in Eden. You think maybe he had the serpent bring them with him when he came to the Ark?

Science can verify all of this when man went from a hunter gather to a food producer.

Historically, hunter-gathers were bigger and healthier than farmers. Crop cultures tended to experience famines and nutritional deficiencies due to over-reliance on a few sources of food, sometimes with crop failures. Would you like some details on how that works?

 

[Diamond7]

That would be impossible, assuming it took place a few thousand years ago.

The best thing to do would be to read the book Paradigm by Jonathan Cahn. He explains this in a way that people can understand and is acceptable to Christians. I usually do not go by my opinions but by what is written in a best selling book somewhere.

 

[The Barbarian]

The best thing to do would be to read the book Paradigm by Jonathan Cahn.

He's a novelist. Seems to have no knowledge of geology or physics at all. You might as well ask the guy who mows your lawn, for financial advice.

I usually do not go by my opinions but by what is written in a best selling book somewhere.

Chariots of the Gods and Mein Kampf were best-sellers.

 

[Dan1988]

Too many species, too many mouths to feed. And if you're YEC you have over 1,000 species of dinosaurs and therapod dinosaurs to contend with. And frankly we are definitely on their menu. The Ark would need warehouse sized food and water storages. And what about waste disposal? The stinkiest ark to have ever sailed the global sea. Have you ever driven past a cattle farm but imagine that on a larger scale in an enclosed space? I think Christianity especially the Fundies, may need to accept that the flood was a massive regional one and likely a passed down oral tradition that may grew alittle larger each time it was taught and that was eventually became canonized by Moses and the ancient scribes. But furthermore, it fits the pattern of Yahweh's judgment of the nations throughout the Old Testament. In fact, both Jesus and Peter drew comparisons between the Flood and the destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70 itself a regional, national judgment.

View attachment 339512
View attachment 339513

Both of your theories have been debunked. The debate is over, so it's time to fess up.
First the germ/virus theory has been exposed as a scam.

The End of Germ Theory

Secondly Noah's Global Flood, has been confirmed as fact. So you fail on both counts.

Worldwide Flood, Worldwide Evidence

Glad to help if you have any other questions

 

[The Barbarian]

Both of your theories have been debunked. The debate is over, so it's time to fess up.
First the germ/virus theory has been exposed as a scam.

The End of Germ Theory

"I saw a video on the inteweb; it has to be true!" C'mon.

Worldwide Flood, Worldwide Evidence

Your site is wrong. The Himalayas are not covered in marine fossils. They are made of marine fossils. This is because they are continental shelves pushed up into mountains when India moved north and collided with Asia. The other stuff on that site is equally foolish. If you doubt that, present what you think is the best evidence cited there, and we'll discuss it.

 

[Diamond7]

Seems to have no knowledge of geology or physics at all.

We were talking about how you seem to know as much about Bible interpretation as your lawn boy. Jesus taught in Parables. In addition to Paradigms we have allegory's, metaphor, archetype, homiletics, symbolic, allusions and so on. Walt Disney said there is no end and it goes on forever. My whole post started out with the simple statement we do not even enter into a deeper understanding of the Bible until we have been a christian for 40 years. My dad worked 12 hours a day six days a week for 50 years and in the end he was just getting started. Everything has a reason and a purpose. My son is a computer engineer and he tells me nothing is random. Some things are just to complicated to understand.

 

[Dan1988]

"I saw a video on the inteweb; it has to be true!" C'mon.


Your site is wrong. The Himalayas are not covered in marine fossils. They are made of marine fossils. This is because they are continental shelves pushed up into mountains when India moved north and collided with Asia. The other stuff on that site is equally foolish. If you doubt that, present what you think is the best evidence cited there, and we'll discuss it.

There's no point in discussing these subjects while you still hold to theories which have been debunked and proven to be lies.

C'mon some scammer invents a fairy tale and it has to be true because the majority drank the cool aid. BTW, I have a harbor bridge to sell you. I'll throw in a free opera house, for the first 50 callers

 

[The Barbarian]

There's no point in discussing these subjects while you still hold to theories which have been debunked and proven to be lies.

The difference is, your debunked theories are just religious speculation and revision of scrlpture, while scientists can measure and examine the evidence to see if it fits predictions. And it does. The movement of India into Asia is not over. The Himalayas are still rising. We can even measure how fast it took, because it's still moving.

C'mon some scammer invents a fairy tale and it has to be true because the majority drank the cool aid. BTW,

Actually, only a minority of Christians accept your fairy tales.

 

[The Barbarian]

We were talking about how you seem to know as much about Bible interpretation as your lawn boy.

Well, when I had one, he was going to seminary after graduation, so maybe you're right.

Jesus taught in Parables.

God often uses stories and figurative language to teach. Not just Jesus' parables. You might do a little reading and see. Paradigms are not figurative stories, however.

Definition of PARADIGM

example, pattern; especially : an outstandingly clear or typical example or archetype; an example of a conjugation or declension showing a word in all its inflectional forms… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

My whole post started out with the simple statement we do not even enter into a deeper understanding of the Bible until we have been a christian for 40 years.

Well, I can beat that by a lot. "Christian" is capitalized, BTW, in respect to Jesus.

My dad worked 12 hours a day six days a week for 50 years and in the end he was just getting started.

I've had people like that working for me. Union shop; not much to do about it.

My son is a computer engineer and he tells me nothing is random.

He doesn't know about quantum random numbers? I would think a computer engineer would be aware of that...

ANU QRNG – Quantum random numbers

qrng.anu.edu.au

Some things are just to complicated to understand.

I suppose so.

 

[Dan1988]

The difference is, your debunked theories are just religious speculation and revision of scrlpture, while scientists can measure and examine the evidence to see if it fits predictions. And it does. The movement of India into Asia is not over. The Himalayas are still rising. We can even measure how fast it took, because it's still moving.


Actually, only a minority of Christians accept your fairy tales.

I'm sure your scientists can measure anything to fabricate evidence. Funny how they don't allow anyone to question their methodology, which has been proven to be a fraudulent method which relies on circular reasoning. That's where scammers force you to accept their fake method before they spin the baloney to produce evidence.

It's all good, you can put your blind faith in the scammers. You're just one of many who follow the Pied Piper to that illusive destination, which never they never reach. True science has all the answerers to everything, but most people have been conditioned to reject the truth and embrace fairy tales.

 

[The Barbarian]

The difference is, your debunked theories are just religious speculation and revision of scrlpture, while scientists can measure and examine the evidence to see if it fits predictions. And it does. The movement of India into Asia is not over. The Himalayas are still rising. We can even measure how fast it took, because it's still moving.


Actually, only a minority of Christians accept your fairy tales.

I'm sure your scientists can measure anything to fabricate evidence.

Ah... "They are lying!! THEY ARE ALL LYING!!!" Heard that one before. That's your best excuse?

Funny how they don't allow anyone to question their methodology, which has been proven to be a fraudulent method which relies on circular reasoning.

It seems you don't know what "circular reasoning" is. What do you think it is?

The methodology of science works better than anything else humans can do to understand the physical universe.

That's where scammers force you to accept their fake method before they spin the baloney to produce evidence.

Maybe you'd do better if you understood a little about the way science learns about things like this.

True science has all the answerers to everything

No. Science is a limited method. It can't consider the supernatural at all. Can't endorse it, can't reject it. You have a very naive idea of what science is.

 

[Diamond7]

He doesn't know about quantum random numbers? I would think a computer engineer would be aware of that...

He mostly programs with Pi, he just took a ton of math classes. He was taking classes from four different colleges when he was in High School. They gave him a budget of $30,000 per year. His friends were amazing, some of them got $90,000 scholarships to the best universities. He wanted to take a class on 3D computers but he had a conflict to the High School added the class for us. Only they spent most of the class setting up the printer and getting it to work. So he did not do much on it. In some cases it is possible to graduate from High School with a 2 year degree.

 

[The Barbarian]

He mostly programs with Pi, he just took a ton of math classes. He was taking classes from four different colleges when he was in High School. They gave him a budget of $30,000 per year. His friends were amazing, some of them got $90,000 scholarships to the best universities. He wanted to take a class on 3D computers but he had a conflict to the High School added the class for us. Only they spent most of the class setting up the printer and getting it to work. So he did not do much on it. In some cases it is possible to graduate from High School with a 2 year degree.

There's a lot more to it. Key is that quantum events are irreducibly random. So you can get true random numbers thereby.

 

[The Barbarian]

I'm sure your scientists can measure anything to fabricate evidence. Funny how they don't allow anyone to question their methodology, which has been proven to be a fraudulent method which relies on circular reasoning.

Lots of errors there. First, scientists are usually pretty leery of fabricating evidence. If your results can't be reproduced, it can be career-ending for you. And even scientists question the methodology from time to time. Read some Karl Popper or Thomas Kuhn; The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Not that they can't make mistakes. Both Popper and Kuhn goofed on some things. Popper even came forward and discussed his error.

which has been proven to be a fraudulent method which relies on circular reasoning.

Perhaps you don't know what "circular reasoning" means. What do you think it means?

That's where scammers force you to accept their fake method before they spin the baloney to produce evidence.

YE creationists aren't scientists. Do you have some real examples? Show us from the scientific literature. What do you have?

True science has all the answerers to everything,

No. Science can only investigate the physical universe. You shouldn't worship science. It's just a method. Granted, the best method we have for investigating the physical universe, but that's it.

but most people have been conditioned to reject the truth and embrace fairy tales.

Not all YE creationists are just following fairy tales. Some are making a good faith effort to support their religious ideas with evidence.

 

[Dan1988]

Lots of errors there. First, scientists are usually pretty leery of fabricating evidence. If your results can't be reproduced, it can be career-ending for you. And even scientists question the methodology from time to time. Read some Karl Popper or Thomas Kuhn; The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Not that they can't make mistakes. Both Popper and Kuhn goofed on some things. Popper even came forward and discussed his error.


Perhaps you don't know what "circular reasoning" means. What do you think it means?


YE creationists aren't scientists. Do you have some real examples? Show us from the scientific literature. What do you have?


No. Science can only investigate the physical universe. You shouldn't worship science. It's just a method. Granted, the best method we have for investigating the physical universe, but that's it.

Not all YE creationists are just following fairy tales. Some are making a good faith effort to support their religious ideas with evidence.

Sounds like you don't know the difference between true science and pseudo science.

In true science, everything must be proven with actual evidence, not theoretical non existent evidence as in pseudo science.

We poses the truth and our science is fully documented an proven by irrefutable evidence. There is none of this theoretical nonsense involved.

We have all the evidence from the One who created everything, He told us how everything came into being because He actually did it Himself. So it's up to pseudo scientist to fabricate evidence to try and disprove what God said, all the evidence confirms a YE, there is no fossils older than 6,000 years.

Now just before you go off on a tangent, with your circular reasoning defense. Understand that God created everything, in a fully mature state. Adam was around 30 years old on the day he was created, all the trees were fully mature. The sedimentary rock layers already appeared to be billions of years old, and everything else looked fully mature and old.

So you can't apply your circular reasoning to this equation, and say the sediments on the river bed show millions of years worth of layers. God did that to confuse foolish wise guys.

There's no such thing as a Christian scientist who puts his faith in deluded snake oils salesmen like Darwin. We already poses the truth and no mad scientist has ever come up with any scheme to challenge the truth. All they have managed to do is deceive those who are already blind to the truth, but they can never damage the integrity of God who always has the last laugh.

 

[The Barbarian]

Sounds like you don't know the difference between true science and pseudo science.

In true science, everything must be proven with actual evidence, not theoretical non existent evidence as in pseudo science.

This is what happens to you for sleeping in science class. Nothing in science is ever "proven." We only get increasingly confident we have it right. Science is basically inductive. Proof is when you know all the rules and deduce the particulars. Science is when you observe the particulars and infer the rules. There are inductive proofs in math, but I can't think of one that applies in science.

We poses the truth and our science is fully documented an proven by irrefutable evidence.

Sounds very unlikely, but go ahead and show us your proof. Remember what's required for proofs.

We have all the evidence from the One who created everything, He told us how everything came into being

That's your addition to scripture. For example, he says the Earth brought forth living things, but didn't tell us how. You filled in the blanks with your imagination and declared that to be the word of God. Stop putting words in God's mouth.

Now just before you go off on a tangent, with your circular reasoning defense.

It seems you don't know what "circular reasoning" is. What do you think it is?

Understand that God created everything, in a fully mature state.

Did God create you? Are you telling us you were created in a mature state? C'mon. That's another of your revisions of His word, to make it more acceptable to you.

The sedimentary rock layers already appeared to be billions of years old, and everything else looked fully mature and old.

Since God is truth, such deception is not something He would do. You did give us a demonstration of circular reasoning, however. Nice work.

There's no such thing as a Christian scientist who puts his faith in deluded snake oils salesmen like Darwin.

No scientist puts faith in other scientists. We accept what they say, if they can show that their predictions are verified by subsequent evidence. You really don't know much about science at all, do you?

All they have managed to do is deceive those who are already blind to the truth, but they can never damage the integrity of God who always has the last laugh.

I don't think He's laughing at you. I suspect He's disappointed you can't believe Him.

 

[HarleyER]

Lots of errors there. First, scientists are usually pretty leery of fabricating evidence. If your results can't be reproduced, it can be career-ending for you. And even scientists question the methodology from time to time. Read some Karl Popper or Thomas Kuhn; The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Not that they can't make mistakes. Both Popper and Kuhn goofed on some things. Popper even came forward and discussed his error.


Perhaps you don't know what "circular reasoning" means. What do you think it means?


YE creationists aren't scientists. Do you have some real examples? Show us from the scientific literature. What do you have?


No. Science can only investigate the physical universe. You shouldn't worship science. It's just a method. Granted, the best method we have for investigating the physical universe, but that's it.

Not all YE creationists are just following fairy tales. Some are making a good faith effort to support their religious ideas with evidence.

Just curious on your thought process…

You seem to place a lot of faith in science and scientists-all except YEC who, you feel are pseudo-scientists because they don’t fit your paradigm. In post #316 you stated that “Science can only investigate the physical universe.” and yet by your bio, your Catholic. The question in my mind is do you believe in the Virgin Birth and how, under your definition, would you investigate that?

I wouldn't place a great deal of faith in any scientist. They can't even tell us what gender a person is today or where the Covid virus came from.

 

[The Barbarian]

Just curious on your thought process…

You seem to place a lot of faith in science

One does not put faith in science. One looks at the evidence and decides.

all except YEC who, you feel are pseudo-scientists because they don’t fit your paradigm.

There are legitmate YE scientists. They honestly admit that they put their faith in YE above the evidence. But they generally admit that the evidence supports an OE an evolution. Would you like to see some of that?

In post #316 you stated that “Science can only investigate the physical universe.” and yet by your bio, your Catholic.

Yes.

The question in my mind is do you believe in the Virgin Birth and how, under your definition, would you investigate that?

The immaculate conception is a miracle, and not open to scientific investigation. Science can neither confirm nor deny miracles.

I wouldn't place a great deal of faith in any scientist.

They wouldn't want you to. They would only hope you'd look at the evidence.

They can't even tell us what gender a person is today

You can tell what gender one is genetically by whether or not they have a Y chromosome. Biological gender is easy. But social gender is a cultural construct. Like race, you have to decide which is important to you. There are biological races in some species, but in humans, race is just a cultural construct,

or where the Covid virus came from.

China. Most likely from miners who were exposed to bats in a cave in Hunan.