A few questions

[GrayAngel]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (3 & 4) JESUS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
​

And finally, the questions about Jesus (P)...

I have heard those answers before, and they are not satisfactory to my intellect.

Here is the problem. People say “The Son and the Father are One”… But even Bible shows that that there were things that the Son could not do or did not know, which the Father DID. As GrayAngel quoted: For His second coming, Jesus said that even He didn't know when He'd return, but only the Father knew.

So for those people who say “ONE BEING, 3 REVELATIONS” that conflicts with Jesus’s limitations. If JESUS and FATHER are ONE, then they would be ‘ONE’ in knowledge, power, ability.

‘I can do nothing of my own authority'
(John 5:30)

So the above verse indicates that Jesus (SON) is somehow on a lower level than GOD (Father)? Indicating he did not have the same “authority” as God?
There are other verses in the Bible that would go against Jesus being on the same level as GOD. Does that mean that GOD is above JESUS who is above HOLY SPIRIT? That logic would at least explain some of the statements in the Bible.

The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him.
(Acts 3:13)

The disciples of Jesus knew him as a servant of God, not LITERAL SON OF GOD. They would have known best… And it seems like it would have been made CLEAR that he is the LITERAL SON of God… And verses such as the one above wouldn’t have been placed in the Bible, which point to Jesus being nothing more than a Servant of God...

Also, did Jesus (SON) exist even before his body was created on this earth or did this 3rd ‘revelation of God’ come into existence only 2000 years ago?

For the H2O analogy... So do you believe God to be like those three in the sense that you can have them all 3 present at once in 1 room? Or do you believe to be them 3 different "types" but all ONE type still? Meaning, you can have water, gas, and ice all present in a room... Do you believe in the trinity in that sense? Or do you claim that they are all somehow ONE, while being 3 different "forms"...

To me, saying "Jesus is fully divine and fully human" is like saying "something is a square and a circle at the same time"... my brain can't accept & process that statement.

Qur’an teaches that Jesus (like all other prophets & messengers of God) was just a human. He was born through a virgin birth, as God said “be and in was”…

"Behold! the angels said, 'Oh Mary! God gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him. His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter, and in (the company of) those nearest to God. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. He shall be (in the company) of the righteous... And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel'"
(Quran 3:45-48).

One of the most fascinating verses in the Qur’an to me is the following:
"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'"
(Quran 5:116-117).

Quran the final revelation from God to man. The above verse shows that GOD wanted to correct the error man has fallen into when it comes to Jesus Christ and He revealed that verse, to clarify the case with Jesus and to give Christians clear guidance, who are seeking guidance.

The Quran defines itself right off the bat, with one of my favorite verses:
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God.
(Quran 2:2)

Early followers of Christ believed him to be a servant of God. The concept of his divinity was later introduced, which explains why NOWHERE in the Bible does it clearly state “JESUS IS GOD”… The church has translated the books to their desires and has taken ambiguous statements and made them hint to trinity.

The word trinity is nowhere in the Bible.

The answer “the trinity is a mystery that cannot be comprehended by human brain” doesn’t suffice for me because I cannot accept that GOD would ask his servants to accept something that goes against their intellect. “Have faith” is not enough for me… I can say that I have looked for the truth, and I just have trouble believing that GOD would send me to HELL because I refused to accept that He had a SON... Which was against my human intellect in the first place.

God is my witness that I am NOT trying to be hateful or insult your religion. I am trying to make myself understand and I am trying to show you my perspective, which plays a role in why I can't understand the twists & turns in modern day Christianity. It asks a lot of "mental gymnastics" to be performed just to be able to understand it's basic beliefs. The staff on this board may get upset at my post and delete it perhaps, because I pose questions Christians would rather avoid, and I provide a comparison answer which seems more logical and God-like.​

Coming from a faith which believes in the COMPLETE ONENESS of GOD, it is hard to comprehend that GOD having a Son. God says in the Qur’an that He is ABOVE having a Son.

I did not realize how long this reply turned out. Please feel free to send me a private message for further discussion; as my response may not be acceptable according to the forum rules…

As-Salamu Alaykum / Peace and blessings be upon you all, my brothers in humanity.

Do you believe that God is something we can fully conceive? If so, you and I disagree. God is far from our realm of understanding. So when you say that the Trinity doesn't fit with your intellect, all I can say is: So what?

You say that the Bible doesn't say the word "Trinity." This is true. The word was invented to refer to the truth the Bible does speak of.

Matthew 28:16-20 - Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Christians baptize in the names of all three of the Trinity. But we baptize in the name (singular).

The above verse also proves another thing you said misinformed. The Bible does speak of Jesus' divinity. Jesus was given all authority in Heaven and on Earth. What kind of a man could claim that? You are right that Jesus was a servant. This was Jesus' whole purpose of coming. When Jesus came to earth, He humbled Himself, born to a carpenter's family in a feeding trough, to serve people (even washing feet, which only the lowest ranking person would do), and dying as a replacement for our sin. Jesus was born to serve.

Even the Old Testament spoke of Jesus divinity, hundreds of years before He was born.

Isaiah 9:6 - For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

To answer one of your questions, yes Jesus did exist before His birth. He even said so Himself, just as He applied one of God's own titles to Himself.

John 8:58 - “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I Am!”

A few questions for you, if you don't mind me asking. You say that you believe that Jesus was born to a virgin woman, correct? What was the significance of that? Why create a human without a human father?

According to the Bible, it's because the bloodline was traditionally followed down from the father. And there was one father in particular that Jesus would not be akin to: Adam. According to the Bible, Jesus has become the second Adam. The first Adam gave us death, but through Jesus we inherit life.

1 Corinthians 15:20-22 - But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Second, Jesus was called Son of God and Son of Man. What is the significance of this? Particularly, why call Jesus Son of Man? Aren't all humans born from humans? Why point it out unless He was more than just a man?

And on an unrelated note, you said that the Bible has been tampered with and is imperfect. I would agree with you that our English translations are imperfect. It's impossible to make a perfect translation. Many words don't have exact English equivalents. However, we have a huge number of resources available today. We have thousands of manuscripts to compare. Even laymen can look up the original Greek and find in-depth explanations for what the original words meant.

But what about the Quran? I've seen your video, and you say that's been preserved very delicately. However, the Muslims were not the first recipients of God's word. The first were the Jews. Without them, neither Christians or Muslims would exist. Then there were the Christians, the followers of Jesus. Then another prophet comes and claims that he's got a new word from God and that he's going to correct scripture, and the Quran was born. Even if the Quran is meticulously guarded today, why should I believe it over the OT that was just as equally guarded by the Jews? Why should I believe its words over what was written by Jesus' closest friends and disciples?

I don't see adequate reason to accept the Quran as the inspired words of God.

 

[Sketcher]

That is Islam’s view on Angels & Iblis/Lucifer, according to my knowledge of it.

Never assume that they will be the same.

The “result of Adam’s fall remains”? Not according to Deuteronomy, as far as I understand it.

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”
(Deuteronomy 24:16)

“…No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another…”
(Quran 6:164)

By the verses from the Qur’an and the Bible, it would point to us not carrying the sin of Adam even if he did not repent.

Again, Quran teaches that Adam repented, God accepted, and we don’t carry the sin... We are born without sin. So it's hard for me to comprehend the Biblical version where God has to KILL somebody in order to forgive Adam for sinning.

You misunderstand what original sin is. Original sin is not generational guilt, but part of our nature. Adam corrupted his own nature by sinning, and we inherit the corruption. It is a deprivation of good, therefore our nature falls short of God's perfect good.

I have heard those answers before, and they are not satisfactory to my intellect.

Here is the problem. People say “The Son and the Father are One”… But even Bible shows that that there were things that the Son could not do or did not know, which the Father DID. As GrayAngel quoted: For His second coming, Jesus said that even He didn't know when He'd return, but only the Father knew.

So for those people who say “ONE BEING, 3 REVELATIONS” that conflicts with Jesus’s limitations. If JESUS and FATHER are ONE, then they would be ‘ONE’ in knowledge, power, ability.

‘I can do nothing of my own authority'
(John 5:30)

So the above verse indicates that Jesus (SON) is somehow on a lower level than GOD (Father)? Indicating he did not have the same “authority” as God?
There are other verses in the Bible that would go against Jesus being on the same level as GOD. Does that mean that GOD is above JESUS who is above HOLY SPIRIT? That logic would at least explain some of the statements in the Bible.

The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him.
(Acts 3:13)

This was adequately answered by VisCrucis.

The disciples of Jesus knew him as a servant of God, not LITERAL SON OF GOD. They would have known best… And it seems like it would have been made CLEAR that he is the LITERAL SON of God… And verses such as the one above wouldn’t have been placed in the Bible, which point to Jesus being nothing more than a Servant of God...
Early followers of Christ believed him to be a servant of God. The concept of his divinity was later introduced, which explains why NOWHERE in the Bible does it clearly state “JESUS IS GOD”… The church has translated the books to their desires and has taken ambiguous statements and made them hint to trinity.

It's because of the disciples that we even have this doctrine of Jesus being the Son of God. They reported it in their Gospels, which were written later than some of Paul's letters, and which are also harmonious with them. They and other early followers believed him to be God made in the flesh.

John 1 tells us that Son pre-existed his incarnation, and that the Son is also one with the Father. In fact, the entire book of John hammers home that Jesus was in fact God. Colossians 1 also fleshes this out, where its description of Jesus is very much a description of God.

For the H2O analogy... So do you believe God to be like those three in the sense that you can have them all 3 present at once in 1 room? Or do you believe to be them 3 different "types" but all ONE type still? Meaning, you can have water, gas, and ice all present in a room... Do you believe in the trinity in that sense? Or do you claim that they are all somehow ONE, while being 3 different "forms"...

We are not Modalists, so the states of water analogy is not accurate. For more on the Trinity, listen to this. Dr. Craig is very brilliant, and has written many books on Christian belief. You may want to look into some of these works for more detailed explanations.

To me, saying "Jesus is fully divine and fully human" is like saying "something is a square and a circle at the same time"... my brain can't accept & process that statement.

The answer “the trinity is a mystery that cannot be comprehended by human brain” doesn’t suffice for me because I cannot accept that GOD would ask his servants to accept something that goes against their intellect. “Have faith” is not enough for me… I can say that I have looked for the truth, and I just have trouble believing that GOD would send me to HELL because I refused to accept that He had a SON... Which was against my human intellect in the first place.

I fully accept that the Creator of the Universe and everything that is beyond it is going to be too big and complex for any human mind to wrap itself around. If we cannot fully know and understand the creation, how can we claim to fully know and understand the Creator outside of what he tells us about himself? And the source material for this is the Bible, not the Quran; what the Bible says is what we are discussing, and appeals to the Quran's authority have no bearing on my argument.

God says in the Qur’an that He is ABOVE having a Son.

We don't. We believe God is not only perfect, but not “above” coming to Earth in human flesh, but bearing the weight of the load that separates people from him on the cross. What it sounds like to me is that Islam shows God as a king who never steps out of his court, but Christianity shows God as a king who will also go into the thick of daily life and lead by example – such as a king who leads his troops from the front. Such a king doesn't just say to his troops “Go and die for me,” he goes into the battle he would have them fight and says “Follow me!”

 

[Danyc]

This is fascinating.

 

[JustAnotherAbdullah]

May God reward you all for the effort you put into responding.

I've been extremely busy and haven't had time to sit down and process all this information.

I just wanted to post; to let you know I'm going through it all and appreciate your time.

 

[GrayAngel]

May God reward you all for the effort you put into responding.

I've been extremely busy and haven't had time to sit down and process all this information.

I just wanted to post; to let you know I'm going through it all and appreciate your time.

No problem. Take your time.

 

[JustAnotherAbdullah]

In regards to #1 & #2 (nature of angels & Adam's (PBUH) "original sin") It's my understanding that the Biblical teachings we have today and Quranic teachings differ on these topics.

I've learned something new in this thread that I did not know about modern day Christian beliefs. May Allah reward you all for sharing your knowledge.

Before you freak out, Allah just simply means "THE ONE GOD"... Arab speaking Christians refer to "GOD" as "ALLAH"

 

[JustAnotherAbdullah]

Jesus's nature is a bit more complex as there are many different answers and they all very in explanation a tad bit from one another.

 

[JustAnotherAbdullah]

I guess my biggest hold up with the trinity is the fact that the Bible consists of hundreds of pages... And NO WHERE could God have SIMPLY said a CLEAR statement like "I AM ONE GOD WITH 3 REVELATIONS. WORSHIP ME, JESUS CHRIST, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, AS WE ARE ALL ONE GOD, IN 3 DIFFERENT REVELATIONS"

It seems that IF this was to be one of the biggest ideologies in Christianity, God would have made it CLEAR...

 

[JustAnotherAbdullah]

This does not seem all that different from the Christian idea of "fallen angels," who were created good but disobeyed God. My understanding is that Islam teaches that the Jinn were created with free will.

Wow, great connection you've made.

However one difference is that Islam teaches that JINN have free-choice and some are believers... Some are Christians, Jews, atheists, etc.

While FALLEN ANGELS are all enemies of GOD... Correct?

 

[JustAnotherAbdullah]

3) I worship one God, eternally expressed in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These three are distinct in person but one in Being. All through God's creation we are given examples of plural unity... light is light, but it is expressed to us in three divisions: infrared, visible, and ultraviolet. Most animals and plants are unified beings that are composed of millions of cells. An egg is one thing, yet composed of many cells, and also three parts: shell, white, yoke. Man is a triune being; composed of body, soul, and spirit. I could go on and on, but I hope you understand.

4) Jesus is God in His Divine nature, but He humbled Himself to become a finite man... when He was born, something wonderful happened, the eternal Divine Son of God became the Son of Man. This is a great mystery, but a truth so wonderfull and powerfull as to make me praise God for His greatness. The Son of God never became the Son of God, He was eternally in triune relationship/Being as God with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus became the Son of Man when He was miraculously conceived within the womb of the virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit... no sexuality was involved contrary to the concept Muslims have of the Miraculous Conception... God, by the Holy Spirit, simply miraculously fertilized an egg in Mary's womb... no sperm, no sexuality, "just" a miracle.

Hope these answers helped you understand.

Mike

Thanks for your insight Mike.

So let me ask you. Why did none of the previous prophets teach the trinitarian view on God?

From what I've read in the Quran, no previous prophet even hinted towards worshiping anything/anyone OTHER than "GOD"...

Again, coming from 25 years of "GOD IS COMPLETELY ONE"... it's just hard to wrap my mind around the NEED of Jesus & Holy Spirit to be in the equation.

 

[JustAnotherAbdullah]

The Son is God even as the Father is God. The doctrine of the Trinity is not that there is God and His Son; two (or three) beings. Rather, the Trinity means that God, in His infinite, eternal, inseparate, and united Being is a relationship of Three. Three gods? No, there is only one God: God. Three beings? No, there is only one Being: God. Yet we confess that there is a Father and He is God, there is a Son and He is God, and there is a Holy Spirit and He is God, not three gods, but one. One infinite, one perfect, one Almighty, one Eternal, one Creator--One.

I'm sorry man... But you keep saying "NOT 3, NOT 3, NOT 3"... And then at the end finish it with "But there is God, Son, Holy Spirit"... TO ME, that sounds like 3

 

[Supreme]

I'm sorry man... But you keep saying "NOT 3, NOT 3, NOT 3"... And then at the end finish it with "But there is God, Son, Holy Spirit"... TO ME, that sounds like 3

There is three persons in the Trinity (the word Trinity I believe initially comes from the Latin for three), but only one God.

 

[hedrick]

Being one and three isn't a contradiction if it's one of X and three of Y. E.g. no one objects to one thing with three parts. For technical reasons we don't speak of the persons as parts, but as a first approximation it's a place to start.

The Trinity is one God. Classically the Trinity is understood to have one will and presumably one consciousness. In most modern understandings of a person I think that makes him one person.

The West has emphasized the unity of God. For us God is basically one, with the persons being distinct only to the extent needed for personal relationship to exist within God. The Catholic Encyclopedia speaks of a single three-fold consciousness, experiencing itself in three ways. But definitely a single consciousness.

Ironically, the motivation behind the Trinity was really to preserve the unity of God. The New Testament speaks of the Logos as having been the agent of creation. The Arians thought of the Logos as a separate divine entity, inferior to God. But having a second divine entity, even if inferior to the Father, isn't a great idea. So the Logos was interpreted as being part of the one God. Making him something like an angel would be a problem, since it would result in Jesus being the incarnation of an angel rather than of God, and that contradicts other parts of the New Testament.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm sorry man... But you keep saying "NOT 3, NOT 3, NOT 3"... And then at the end finish it with "But there is God, Son, Holy Spirit"... TO ME, that sounds like 3

As Hedrick said, think of it like this maybe:

One X
Three Y's

One Substance, Essence, Nature, Being: God.
Three Hypostases, Subsistences, or "Persons": Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

One Lord: God.
One Being: God.
One Nature: God.
One Essence: God.
One Almighty: God.
etc.

The Father is that one God (thus Lord, the One Being, Nature, or Essence, and He is Almighty).

The Son is that one God (thus Lord, the One Being, Nature, or Essence, and He is Almighty).

The Spirit is that one God (thus Lord, the One Being, Nature, or Essence, and He is Almighty).

One X (God)
Three Y's, the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

One way I've heard it put that I like is this:

A rock is one substance/being/essence -- rock
A rock is zero persons/hypostases.

George is one substance/being/essence -- human
George is one person/hypostasis -- George

The Trinity is one Substance/Being/Essence -- God
The Trinity is three Persons/Hypostases -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

-CryptoLutheran

 

[GrayAngel]

Thanks for your insight Mike.

So let me ask you. Why did none of the previous prophets teach the trinitarian view on God?

From what I've read in the Quran, no previous prophet even hinted towards worshiping anything/anyone OTHER than "GOD"...

Again, coming from 25 years of "GOD IS COMPLETELY ONE"... it's just hard to wrap my mind around the NEED of Jesus & Holy Spirit to be in the equation.

The apostle Paul:

Philippians 2:5-11 - In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death —
even death on a cross!
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Or did you mean "previous" as in OT? If so, the passage from Isaiah 9:6, which I quoted earlier, applies here.

Isaiah 9:6 - For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

Son, authority over government, Mighty God? It sounds like a perfect description of the Son of God to me.

 

[Radagast]

Wow, great connection you've made.

However one difference is that Islam teaches that JINN have free-choice and some are believers... Some are Christians, Jews, atheists, etc.

While FALLEN ANGELS are all enemies of GOD... Correct?

Christianity teaches that some former angels choose to rebel against God (and are now demons) while other angels remained in God's service.

 

[Radagast]

Also, did Jesus (SON) exist even before his body was created on this earth or did this 3rd ‘revelation of God’ come into existence only 2000 years ago?

Christianity teaches that (1) there was an aspect/person of God ("God the Son" or "The Logos") who existed from eternity, and (2) God the Son took human form as the man Jesus:

John 1:1-17: 1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. 2 οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν. 3 πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν 4 ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἐστιν, καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἦν τὸ φῶς τῶν ἀνθρώπων. 5 καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει, καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν. 6 Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος, ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ θεοῦ, ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης· 7 οὗτος ἦλθεν εἰς μαρτυρίαν, ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός, ἵνα πάντες πιστεύσωσιν δι’ αὐτοῦ. 8 οὐκ ἦν ἐκεῖνος τὸ φῶς, ἀλλ’ ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός. 9 Ἦν τὸ φῶς τὸ ἀληθινόν, ὃ φωτίζει πάντα ἄνθρωπον, ἐρχόμενον εἰς τὸν κόσμον. 10 ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ ἦν, καὶ ὁ κόσμος δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ ὁ κόσμος αὐτὸν οὐκ ἔγνω. 11 εἰς τὰ ἴδια ἦλθεν, καὶ οἱ ἴδιοι αὐτὸν οὐ παρέλαβον. 12 ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτόν, ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν τέκνα θεοῦ γενέσθαι, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ, 13 οἳ οὐκ ἐξ αἱμάτων οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος σαρκὸς οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος ἀνδρὸς ἀλλ’ ἐκ θεοῦ ἐγεννήθησαν. 14 καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός, πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας. 15 Ἰωάννης μαρτυρεῖ περὶ αὐτοῦ καὶ κέκραγεν λέγων· οὗτος ἦν ὃν εἶπον· ὁ ὀπίσω μου ἐρχόμενος ἔμπροσθέν μου γέγονεν, ὅτι πρῶτός μου ἦν. 16 ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ πληρώματος αὐτοῦ ἡμεῖς πάντες ἐλάβομεν, καὶ χάριν ἀντὶ χάριτος· 17 ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωϋσέως ἐδόθη, ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐγένετο.

1 In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made, and without him no created thing was made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not grasped it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the light, so that all might believe through him. 8 John was not the light, but only a witness about the light. 9 The true light, which enlightens all men, was coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God — 13 children born not of blood, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 And the Logos became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 In fact, John bore witness about him, crying out, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’” 16 And from the Logos' fullness we have all received grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

 

[JustAnotherAbdullah]

I think most Christians understand Jesus to be "son" as in me being my father's son of God.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
(I'm sure I don't even need to mention which Chapter & Verse)

​

But from what I understand from this forum, Jesus is not his son as this verse may hint...?

He's not really a "SON" at all... He's just one of the ways God chooses to reveal himself?

 

[Radagast]

He's not really a "SON" at all... He's just one of the ways God chooses to reveal himself?

There's a subtle distinction between, on the one hand, "God the Son," or the "Logos" (who is eternal) and, on the other hand, Jesus, who is the Logos in human form, and therefore both God and Man. Jesus was of course born, and grew up from childhood.

 

[Supreme]

I think most Christians understand Jesus to be "son" as in me being my father's son of God.

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
(I'm sure I don't even need to mention which Chapter & Verse)

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But from what I understand from this forum, Jesus is not his son as this verse may hint...?

He's not really a "SON" at all... He's just one of the ways God chooses to reveal himself?

Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit (who is God) and Mary. As the Holy Spirit conceived Jesus, He is often called the Son of God, as He quite literally was the Son of God.