A few questions

JustAnotherAbdullah

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As you can probably tell, I am Muslim and I would like to be able to understand Christianity and the logic behind some of it's beliefs (those which are different than Islam's beliefs)

As some of you might have seen, I have a YouTube channel where I try to serve God, for lack of better term... Many people have fallen into the SOCIALLY-PROMOTED trap of atheism, and I'm trying to bring people back to the true path, by the will of God.

Above is my channel.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

At times, I do talk about Christianity and I would like to be able to better represent it's teaching... Because there is NOTHING I hate more than going on
YouTube and seeing somebody talk about things relating to Islam that are FAR from our beliefs and the teachings in the Qur'an.

I don't want to do that same injustice to Christianity, and upset my brothers in humanity. (We are ALL from Adam & Eve)

Please try to provide me with "short and sweet" answers. :)

QUESTIONS​

1) Angels are perfect beings... So HOW was Lucifer able to sin against God? Doesn't that indicate that God's attempt to create PERFECTION failed?

2) Why wasn't God able to forgive Adam when he asked for forgiveness? Seems selfish of God to have to kill his "son" in order to forgive us...

3) If GOD told you in the Bible to worship HIM alone (Isaiah 45:21-22)... Then why do you attribute to HIM a son and take him for worship too?

4) Who is Jesus? God? Son of God? Was he divine or was he human?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Those are some of the questions I have, because I don't understand them. Islam has a different viewpoint on these issues... I pray that somebody takes the time to answer them.

May God guide us ALL to the straight path!
 

GrayAngel

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As you can probably tell, I am Muslim and I would like to be able to understand Christianity and the logic behind some of it's beliefs (those which are different than Islam's beliefs)

As some of you might have seen, I have a YouTube channel where I try to serve God, for lack of better term... Many people have fallen into the SOCIALLY-PROMOTED trap of atheism, and I'm trying to bring people back to the true path, by the will of God.

Above is my channel.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

At times, I do talk about Christianity and I would like to be able to better represent it's teaching... Because there is NOTHING I hate more than going on
YouTube and seeing somebody talk about things relating to Islam that are FAR from our beliefs and the teachings in the Qur'an.

I don't want to do that same injustice to Christianity, and upset my brothers in humanity. (We are ALL from Adam & Eve)

Please try to provide me with "short and sweet" answers. :)

I'd be happy to answer your questions. I might even visit your channel and watch a few of your videos. I admit I don't know too much about Islam.

However, I think you'll find that even if you understood Christianity, it would be impossible to please everyone. There are a lot of things Christians do not all agree on. For example, I will tell you that the Bible teaches predestination, but the majority believe in free will (even though many will admit that the Bible doesn't say anything about it). Christianity has been around for 2,000 years, so we've had plenty of time to divide and to deviate from what the disciples taught.

QUESTIONS​

1) Angels are perfect beings... So HOW was Lucifer able to sin against God? Doesn't that indicate that God's attempt to create PERFECTION failed?


This question makes me wonder what you believe on the subject, since we do both share the first few books of the Bible, and Satan was in the Garden of Eden.

As I alluded to earlier, I don't believe in free will. I believe that it was in God's plan for Satan to fall and bring sin into the world. God was not surprised by it at all. In fact in the book of Job, we see God even suggesting to Satan who He should tempt. Some skeptics of Christianity claim that Satan was a servant of God, but this wasn't the case. Satan's expressed intent was to cause Job, a man God called righteous, to curse God. God, however, had other things in mind. Even when evil intends to hurt us, God's intent is to use it for something good:

Genesis 50:18-21 - His brothers then came and threw themselves down before him. “We are your slaves,” they said.

But Joseph said to them, “Don’t be afraid. Am I in the place of God? You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. So then, don’t be afraid. I will provide for you and your children.” And he reassured them and spoke kindly to them.


2) Why wasn't God able to forgive Adam when he asked for forgiveness? Seems selfish of God to have to kill his "son" in order to forgive us...

Isn't this another thing we have in common?

The Bible doesn't mention Adam asking for forgiveness. God gave him a chance to explain himself, but he blamed his wife. Then his wife did the same, passing the blame to Satan.

Later on, I'm sure they did regret what they did, but sin has consequences. God is love, but He is also just. He rewards good and punishes evil. He could not rightly just accept them back.

But, remember, God's plan never fails. He knew this would happen. When Adam and Eve left the garden, God said that Eve's offspring would come to crush the head of Satan. Jesus, a son born to a virgin woman, fulfilled this prophecy.

3) If GOD told you in the Bible to worship HIM alone (Isaiah 45:21-22)... Then why do you attribute to HIM a son and take him for worship too?

4) Who is Jesus? God? Son of God? Was he divine or was he human?

I lumped these two questions together because they both require understanding of the concept of the Trinity.

Christians believe in one God, not three. However, we believe that God expresses Himself in "three persons." Jesus was God in the flesh, fully man and fully God. We don't see a distinction between worshiping Jesus and the Father. We also don't worry about giving the Holy Spirit some attention, as all three are God.

If you don't understand the Trinity, don't worry. Many of us would argue that it is incomprehensible anyway (though, I'd say it's just tough to grasp). It is considered a great mystery, as while Jesus is God, so is the Father. While the Jesus was completely God, He also had human limitations. For His second coming, Jesus said that even He didn't know when He'd return, but only the Father knew. Then there is also the Holy Spirit, the middle-man between humans and the Father. He descended onto Jesus after His baptism. All are distinctly different, yet the same God.

Those are some of the questions I have, because I don't understand them. Islam has a different viewpoint on these issues... I pray that somebody takes the time to answer them.

May God guide us ALL to the straight path!

I'd actually like to know what your viewpoints are, if you don't mind.

PS: Sorry. I don't do short and sweet well when it comes to theology.

EDIT: I just finished watching your "5 things you did NOT know about ISLAM" video. It was interesting and informative, but also opened up some new questions. I might post some comments on your video later.
 
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Tucansam93

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As you can probably tell, I am Muslim and I would like to be able to understand Christianity and the logic behind some of it's beliefs (those which are different than Islam's beliefs)

As some of you might have seen, I have a YouTube channel where I try to serve God, for lack of better term... Many people have fallen into the SOCIALLY-PROMOTED trap of atheism, and I'm trying to bring people back to the true path, by the will of God.

Above is my channel.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

At times, I do talk about Christianity and I would like to be able to better represent it's teaching... Because there is NOTHING I hate more than going on
YouTube and seeing somebody talk about things relating to Islam that are FAR from our beliefs and the teachings in the Qur'an.

I don't want to do that same injustice to Christianity, and upset my brothers in humanity. (We are ALL from Adam & Eve)

Please try to provide me with "short and sweet" answers. :)

QUESTIONS​

1) Angels are perfect beings... So HOW was Lucifer able to sin against God? Doesn't that indicate that God's attempt to create PERFECTION failed?

2) Why wasn't God able to forgive Adam when he asked for forgiveness? Seems selfish of God to have to kill his "son" in order to forgive us...

3) If GOD told you in the Bible to worship HIM alone (Isaiah 45:21-22)... Then why do you attribute to HIM a son and take him for worship too?

4) Who is Jesus? God? Son of God? Was he divine or was he human?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Those are some of the questions I have, because I don't understand them. Islam has a different viewpoint on these issues... I pray that somebody takes the time to answer them.

May God guide us ALL to the straight path!

Those are good questions. I'm not going to answer 1 and 2 because I don't know the Bible enough but I will answer 3 and 4. What you have to keep in mind is that in Islam (I might be wrong, but this is what I thought) you have to do "good works" so that God accepts you, while in Christianity, God has forgiven you by grace already and therefore you should follow Him. That ties into question 4 of how Jesus was the human form of God who lived and died for humanity which is why we should follow Him. So to answer question 4, Jesus was God, which is part of the Trinity. To answer question 3, Jesus was God, and according to the Trinity, they are the same God.

I have a couple of questions for you too, if you don't mind.

-Christianity and Islam are somewhat similar, but in Islam, if a Christian lives his or her life for God but believes Jesus was God, are they still accepted by God, or Allah?

-Who is Jesus to Islam?
 
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drich0150

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1) Angels are perfect beings... So HOW was Lucifer able to sin against God? Doesn't that indicate that God's attempt to create PERFECTION failed?
Why do you assume angels were perfect? The bible does not say they were perfect and Lucifers action prove otherwise.

2) Why wasn't God able to forgive Adam when he asked for forgiveness? Seems selfish of God to have to kill his "son" in order to forgive us...
Because God's leading attribute is Righteousness. Not the modern understanding of Love. Righteousness demands a death/blood for sin. therefore Blood had to be spilled, and the innocent had to die for the guilty so we may find attonement for sin.

3) If GOD told you in the Bible to worship HIM alone (Isaiah 45:21-22)... Then why do you attribute to HIM a son and take him for worship too?
God is a title and not a name as in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. One God three deities.

4) Who is Jesus? God? Son of God? Was he divine or was he human?
Jesus was the name of the physical embodyment of God the Son.
 
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Sketcher

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1) Angels are perfect beings... So HOW was Lucifer able to sin against God? Doesn't that indicate that God's attempt to create PERFECTION failed?
There are angels that obey God, and angels that did not. Obedience is a choice.

2) Why wasn't God able to forgive Adam when he asked for forgiveness? Seems selfish of God to have to kill his "son" in order to forgive us...
There is no verse in Genesis which states Adam asked for forgiveness - only his passing the buck to Eve.

Besides, a couple more points from your statement -

- If anyone has the right to be selfish, God has that right.

- The sacrifice of Jesus had the burden all on God. God the Son suffered on the cross and in the agony of death, God the Father suffered from Heaven. If God were being selfish, he wouldn't have gone through with it.

3) If GOD told you in the Bible to worship HIM alone (Isaiah 45:21-22)... Then why do you attribute to HIM a son and take him for worship too?
Jesus is God the Son. God is complex in his unity, and from that we have the Trinity. God is not restricted to being God the Father, there is also God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit - not three separate gods, but one God who is greater than the human mind can comprehend.

4) Who is Jesus? God? Son of God? Was he divine or was he human?
Pertaining to his divinity, see the previous answer. Pertaining his nature, he is the God-man, God made manifest in human flesh. God is both omnipotent and omnipresent, he can do that.
 
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singpeace

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QUESTIONS​

1) Angels are perfect beings... So HOW was Lucifer able to sin against God? Doesn't that indicate that God's attempt to create PERFECTION failed?


Since the beginning of time, there has been a war raging in the cosmos. It is a war that starts in heaven when Lucifer decides that he wants to be God. Lucifer was God’s most beautiful creation. He walked before the throne room daily and was considered an archangel. But Lucifer became jealous of God, and it was out of that jealously that Lucifer convinced one third of the angels to join his efforts to overthrow God and become God himself. It was at this point He ceased being an archangel and became the Prince of Darkness. The Devil’s revolt resulted in him being cast out of Heaven by God and ever since Satan and God have been enemies.

2) Why wasn't God able to forgive Adam when he asked for forgiveness? Seems selfish of God to have to kill his "son" in order to forgive us...

1) God was gracious to warn Adam about sin and its consequences. (Genesis 2:15-17).

(2) When Adam sinned, God did not immediately put Adam to death. Instead, God sought Adam out, and exposed his sin (Genesis 3:8-13).

(3) God promised to provide a cure for sin and death (Genesis 3:15). He also provided Adam and Eve with coverings (3:21).

(4) God graciously removed Adam and Eve from the garden, and prevented them from returning to it. He kept them from eating of the tree of life, lest they live forever in their sin (3:22-24).

(5) God was gracious to turn the curse into the cure. Death kept Adam and Eve from living forever as condemned sinners. It was death (the death of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary) that ultimately and permanently defeated Satan, sin, and death -- because our Lord died in the sinner's place, and then rose from the dead. Even the woman's pain in childbearing was gracious, because it was through this painful process that the Messiah would someday come into the world to save sinners.

All of this suggests that Adam and Eve did seek God's forgiveness, and receive it. The Bible places the emphasis on Adam's sin (and not on his repentance and forgiveness) because it was through Adam's sin that all mankind was corrupted and brought under the same sentence of death (Romans 5:12-21). Adam turns our attention toward the sin of the human race. Jesus Christ turns our attention to redemption, life, and righteousness.


3) If GOD told you in the Bible to worship HIM alone (Isaiah 45:21-22)... Then why do you attribute to HIM a son and take him for worship too?

4) Who is Jesus? God? Son of God? Was he divine or was he human?

The Son and the Father are One - There is only One God - but He has manifested himself in three different ways: 1. as Jehovah, our Father. 2. as Christ, our Savior. 3. as the Holy Spirit, our Comforter.

Think of it this way; you are a spirit, you dwell in a physical body, and you have a soul (your mind, will, and emotions). This makes you a three dimensional person but still only one person.

Another example is H20. In three different stages, H20 is water, vapor, and ice; yet, it is always H20.

We worship only one God; however He is three-dimensional and triune just as we are - as He made us in his image.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Those are some of the questions I have, because I don't understand them. Islam has a different viewpoint on these issues... I pray that somebody takes the time to answer them.

May God guide us ALL to the straight path!
[/QUOTE]
 
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bling

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QUESTIONS

1) Angels are perfect beings... So HOW was Lucifer able to sin against God? Doesn't that indicate that God's attempt to create PERFECTION failed?
First off: There are some things that just cannot be done and even God cannot do these things, such as make something that has always existed (not been made). When God makes man, man is “very good” but that does not mean perfect and yet it does mean as good as man can be made. Angle were also created beings made “very good” as good as they could be made, but that is not perfection.

Beings that can Love like God Loves have to have free will, because Godly type Love is not strictly an emotional type of Love nor is it instinctive (that would make it a robotic type of Love). Godly type Love is not “logical” but is a “Love for your enemies”; so the being has decided of his/her own free will to do. The person with Godly type Love will Love others in spite of who they are, how they look or what they have done, but because of who he is.

This required free will even in angels allows them to both Love with Godly type Love, but also to be self seeking and that later is what happened to Lucifer.
2) Why wasn't God able to forgive Adam when he asked for forgiveness? Seems selfish of God to have to kill his "son" in order to forgive us...


God can forgive anyone any time there is no lack of Love on God’s part. We do not have recorded Adam asking for forgiveness, but he could have and also been forgiven. This requires a huge understanding of atonement and you are starting from some miss conceptions.

All I can do is; ask you some questions, wait for your response and move on from there:

What is man’s objective while here on earth?

What is God’s objective as it relates to man?

What is this Godly type Love and would it control all of God’s actions?

Why did God make man in the first place?

Would you prefer to be in a wonderful place in close relationship with God, but your dependence on staying in that place and relationship with God was totally dependent on your personal ability to be totally obedient (never failing for eternity) (this is the Garden situation) OR would you prefer to be in a situation where you mess up, but your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your willingness to accept God’s charity (that is where you are today)?

God did not kill His son; but did allow wicked people to murder His very willing son (Jesus could stop it anytime) in order to help willing people to finally accept God’s charity fairly and justly.

You are very right to see the injustice of penal substitution (the whipping boy scenario), but that is not at all what is happening. I will explain if you would like and ask me to, but it is lengthy.


3) If GOD told you in the Bible to worship HIM alone (Isaiah 45:21-22)... Then why do you attribute to HIM a son and take him for worship too?



The trinity maybe beyond our human understanding and there is nothing like it and books have been written on it. Christians do worship the one God.

This is from the New Testament and Jesus is telling us:


Mark 12:29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these."


Is it possible for God to be in multiple locations at the same time?


4) Who is Jesus? God? Son of God? Was he divine or was he human?
Let us start with what we agree on:



Jesus is the Messiah. (The one and only Messiah).

Jesus was born of a virgin birth. (the only person born of a virgin birth).

Jesus did not sin. (The only adult mature person to never sin).

Jesus did more miracles than any other person (prophet) before or after him.

Jesus is returning (the only one that is said to be returning at the end of this earth).

Jesus fulfilled tons of Old Testament prophecies and all of them about the Messiah.

Jesus was at least a messenger of God, but did not say the message they had was wrong at the time and from what we do have did not contradict their Old Testament.

The record we do have about Jesus was protected and preserved in an amazing way with 23,000+ ancient manuscripts with 8000+ in the original language and the others in 16 other languages, yet all 96+ word for word consistent and 100% consistent in content (the same message).

Jesus just ministered for a very short time (three years) and at the end of His ministry he had just a few poor uneducated followers (11 or maybe 120 and at most 500). But something had to have happened because these few followers risked their lives, with their leader physically gone and no one to replace him to become a huge group over the next 300 years.

The big difference about Jesus, over the prophets, is it is not the words He spoke (the verbal or written message) that is significant (these words for the most part had been said by prophets before Jesus came), it was what He did (especially going to the cross and completing all the Old Testament promises) and what Jesus does even today by living in and through true Christians by the indwelling Holy Spirit.
 
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a_ntv

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1) Angels are perfect beings... So HOW was Lucifer able to sin against God? Doesn't that indicate that God's attempt to create PERFECTION failed?

Angels are not fully perfect (where it is written?): they can choose the evil

2) Why wasn't God able to forgive Adam when he asked for forgiveness? Seems selfish of God to have to kill his "son" in order to forgive us...
God forgave Adam. But the results of Adam's fall remain

3) If GOD told you in the Bible to worship HIM alone (Isaiah 45:21-22)... Then why do you attribute to HIM a son and take him for worship too?
Jesus is GOD. Same substance of the Father (same essence, nature, power, action, and will)

4) Who is Jesus? God? Son of God? Was he divine or was he human?
Jesus Christ, our Lord and our God, is both true-man and true-God: He is the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before times, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
 
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ViaCrucis

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1) Angels are perfect beings... So HOW was Lucifer able to sin against God? Doesn't that indicate that God's attempt to create PERFECTION failed?


Depends on how we mean "perfection". In some ways we can say that the only truly perfect is God Himself, wholly independent in His own Being--whereas all creatures are dependent, we can't exist apart from the will of God--after all He created all that exists. If by perfect we simply mean without flaw, then that doesn't preclude being a rational creature with a creaturely will, after all in this sense God created everything perfect, including mankind, and yet mankind can and has fallen; thus the angels are as capable of sin as human beings are.

2) Why wasn't God able to forgive Adam when he asked for forgiveness? Seems selfish of God to have to kill his "son" in order to forgive us...


God doesn't need anything to forgive, and I think this is one of the more detrimental flaws in the modern theology (and its presentation) of Penal Substitution. God didn't need Christ to die (and He certainly didn't kill Him) in order to forgive us, God in His infinite mercy has always been quite capable of extending that mercy to us. Christianity and its doctrine of the Atonement is about God's act of uniting the human race to Himself and setting the world right; not finding a scapegoat upon which to throw His fury in order that we can avoid God's smite stick.

3) If GOD told you in the Bible to worship HIM alone (Isaiah 45:21-22)... Then why do you attribute to HIM a son and take him for worship too?


The Son is God even as the Father is God. The doctrine of the Trinity is not that there is God and His Son; two (or three) beings. Rather, the Trinity means that God, in His infinite, eternal, inseparate, and united Being is a relationship of Three. Three gods? No, there is only one God: God. Three beings? No, there is only one Being: God. Yet we confess that there is a Father and He is God, there is a Son and He is God, and there is a Holy Spirit and He is God, not three gods, but one. One infinite, one perfect, one Almighty, one Eternal, one Creator--One.

4) Who is Jesus? God? Son of God? Was he divine or was he human?


The answer to all these questions is yes. He is God because He is the Son, thus He is Divine. He is human because He became incarnate in the womb of the Blessed Virgin, this is why we call her Theotokos: mother or bearer of God. Her Child is also her Creator.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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GrayAngel

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Greetings Abdullah, peace be with you.

I don't want to do that same injustice to Christianity, and upset my brothers in humanity. (We are ALL from Adam & Eve)

:amen: May the one true God of Abraham bless you for your charitable attitude, sir. May we all return the favor!

Please try to provide me with "short and sweet" answers.

I do short and sweet pretty well. :) Cause I'm too lazy to type a lot haha.

1) Angels are perfect beings... So HOW was Lucifer able to sin against God? Doesn't that indicate that God's attempt to create PERFECTION failed?

It's worth pointing out that not all Christians actually believe Satan is Lucifer fallen; some believe that story is just a myth. (I'm not necessarily saying I am or am not one of those people; just throwing it out there...) That said, I don't know what Islam teaches regarding angels but Christian belief allows for the notion that angels are not robotically controlled by God; they are individuals with free choice. Therefore even though God created them perfect, they have the choice to choose evil, just like Man.

2) Why wasn't God able to forgive Adam when he asked for forgiveness? Seems selfish of God to have to kill his "son" in order to forgive us...

I will admit I don't know of one conclusive biblical answer explaining why God couldn't just "snap his fingers" and pronounce humanity forgiven after the Fall; I can only say that if I believe the New Testament is true then I have no choice but to accept that God says it has to happen this way, for reasons known to him.

The best answer I could attempt is to say that God is just, and even an omnipotent being can choose to follow his own rules if he so chooses. Once he establishes unbreakable rules of justice at the beginning of the world, which he himself chooses to follow, including the rule that justice must be served when the Law is broken, then he must receive satisfaction/justice for sin before it can be forgiven.

3) If GOD told you in the Bible to worship HIM alone (Isaiah 45:21-22)... Then why do you attribute to HIM a son and take him for worship too?

I don't claim to know exactly why God is a Trinity, but again as with the last answer, if I believe the NT is God's Word and that it teaches the doctrine, I must accept it. And I can't come away from the NT without agreeing with the orthodox Christian teaching, that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not the same divine persons, and yet they are all equally given credit as being divine. If the Son and the Spirit are equal to the Father in divinity, they are worthy of worship.

4) Who is Jesus? God? Son of God? Was he divine or was he human?

Scripture refers to him both as God (John 1:1) and as the Son of God (John 1:18). The orthodox Christian teaching (formulated at the Council of Nicea) is that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate persons yet share the same divine nature. So Jesus is God in the sense that he shares the Father's nature; he is the Son of God in the sense that he's not the same person as the Father. Also, orthodoxy taught at the Council of Chalcedon that he was both divine and human; he had a fully divine nature as well as a fully human nature.

Okay so my answers weren't as short as I planned. :D But I hope they were informative! Peace
 
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food4thought

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As you can probably tell, I am Muslim and I would like to be able to understand Christianity and the logic behind some of it's beliefs (those which are different than Islam's beliefs)

May God bless you for your honest seeking.

As some of you might have seen, I have a YouTube channel where I try to serve God, for lack of better term... Many people have fallen into the SOCIALLY-PROMOTED trap of atheism, and I'm trying to bring people back to the true path, by the will of God.


Above is my channel.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Although I disagree with the Qur'an, I think you presented the information in an engaging and well produced format. A very good job.

At times, I do talk about Christianity and I would like to be able to better represent it's teaching... Because there is NOTHING I hate more than going on Youtube
and seeing somebody talk about things relating to Islam that are FAR from our beliefs and the teachings in the Qur'an.

I don't want to do that same injustice to Christianity, and upset my brothers in humanity. (We are ALL from Adam & Eve)

May God bless you for that aspiration, and help you to understand what the truth is regarding these things.

Please try to provide me with "short and sweet" answers. :)

Some of your questions just cannot be fully answered in a "short and sweet" format without distorting the truth into something you hope to avoid as you said above... I will do my best to keep my answers on point and concise, but cannot promise a short response.



1) Angels are perfect beings... So HOW was Lucifer able to sin against God? Doesn't that indicate that God's attempt to create PERFECTION failed?

I know of no place in the Bible that says the angels were created or are perfect. As others have stated, God created the angels as beings with the capacity to choose, thus they were created with the capacity to choose that which is against God's will... some of the angels chose God, some chose to follow Satan.

2) Why wasn't God able to forgive Adam when he asked for forgiveness? Seems selfish of God to have to kill his "son" in order to forgive us...

This is a somewhat complex question... Do you believe that God is perfectly just and perfectly righteous? If so, then these qualities DEMAND that God judge sin righteously and justly. In order for justice and righteousness to be served, sin (missing the mark of perfection) must be punished. The penalty for sin is physical death and spiritual death (seperation from God). No other penalty would satisfy perfect justice and righteousness because the end result of sin, which at heart is going against the will of God, is potential death and potential broken relationship. Because God is omniscient, knowing all things possible and actual, only He can chart a path for man, who is finite in knowledge, that does not lead to eventual death and/or broken relationship. Therefore following the will of God is the only sure path to life and right relationship to others, and all turning from God's guidance is sin. Think about that for a bit...

What basis does Allah have for forgiving sin if He is perfectly righteous and perfectly just? Allah is mercifull, but on what basis does he show mercy to sinners if he is to remain righteous and just? Is Allah mercifull to sinners without justification and therefore not righteous and just; or is Allah righteous and just but not mercifull. He cannot be both without judging sin righteously and justly while at the same time showing mercy to sinners.

The Bible gives us the answer: substitutionary atonement. God in His love and mercy sent Jesus, who was without sin and perfectly followed God all His days, and therefore was able to righteously and justly take upon Himself the sins of all mankind and thus satisfied God's righteous and just judgement of sin while showing mercy and love to us... without that sacrifice, we are all lost and condemned by God's righteous justice.

3) If GOD told you in the Bible to worship HIM alone (Isaiah 45:21-22)... Then why do you attribute to HIM a son and take him for worship too?

4) Who is Jesus? God? Son of God? Was he divine or was he human?

3) I worship one God, eternally expressed in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These three are distinct in person but one in Being. All through God's creation we are given examples of plural unity... light is light, but it is expressed to us in three divisions: infrared, visible, and ultraviolet. Most animals and plants are unified beings that are composed of millions of cells. An egg is one thing, yet composed of many cells, and also three parts: shell, white, yoke. Man is a triune being; composed of body, soul, and spirit. I could go on and on, but I hope you understand.

4) Jesus is God in His Divine nature, but He humbled Himself to become a finite man... when He was born, something wonderful happened, the eternal Divine Son of God became the Son of Man. This is a great mystery, but a truth so wonderfull and powerfull as to make me praise God for His greatness. The Son of God never became the Son of God, He was eternally in triune relationship/Being as God with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus became the Son of Man when He was miraculously conceived within the womb of the virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit... no sexuality was involved contrary to the concept Muslims have of the Miraculous Conception... God, by the Holy Spirit, simply miraculously fertilized an egg in Mary's womb... no sperm, no sexuality, "just" a miracle.

Hope these answers helped you understand.

Mike
 
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JustAnotherAbdullah

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All praise is to God alone and peace and blessings be upon all of his messengers.

First off, I want to thank EVERYBODY for responding to my questions. May God reward you for every single letter you typed.

Secondly, I want to mention that what I say is only MY understanding of things… And I could be wrong.

And lastly, before I start, I want to say that I will post verses from the Quran as well, just to help you better understand where I am coming from and what my thought process is... Also, why I have a hard time understanding & accepting Christian teachings...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (1) ANGELS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My ignorance of Biblical teachings lead me to assuming...

As for the angels… Islam’s viewpoint on them is that they were created by God to worship, obey, glorify, serve, etc God. They do not have “free-will” to choose NOT to obey God, as that is not in their nature as they were created for purpose of being God's servants. Humans have free will; angels don't.

“They celebrate His praises night and day, nor do they ever slacken.”
(Quran 21:20)


Knowing Islam’s explanation of angels, I assumed it was the same in Christianity as well, but I guess that’s where I assumed wrong. Lucifer (Iblis) in Qur’an became jealous at ADAM (P), not GOD… He became jealous at the fact that Adam (p) had replaced him as God’s favorite creature; as he had pride and arrogance. He was NOT of the Angels. He was a “jinn” who had been a loyal servant of God and his favorite creature before disobeying a ‘showing his true colors’… He then made a supplication to God not to destroy him and to allow him to try to misguide mankind until the Day of Judgment, and God accepted his prayer/supplication.

That is Islam’s view on Angels & Iblis/Lucifer, according to my knowledge of it.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (2) ADAM'S SIN ("ORIGINAL SIN") ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Again, my ignorance of Biblical teachings has lead me to another incorrect assumption.

According to the Quran, Adam repented...

“Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.”
(Quran 2:37)


As you can see, Quran teaches us that Adam repented and asked for forgiveness, and God forgave him… (no original sin)

As for the answer that “sin is paid back with blood sacrifice”… To me, it doesn’t make sense that God would require blood sacrifice as well. I believe God is more merciful than that, I guess. I see humans forgiving murder without sacrifice, and I don't believe them to be more merciful than God.

The “result of Adam’s fall remains”? Not according to Deuteronomy, as far as I understand it.

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”
(Deuteronomy 24:16)

“…No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another…”
(Quran 6:164)


By the verses from the Qur’an and the Bible, it would point to us not carrying the sin of Adam even if he did not repent.

Again, Quran teaches that Adam repented, God accepted, and we don’t carry the sin... We are born without sin. So it's hard for me to comprehend the Biblical version where God has to KILL somebody in order to forgive Adam for sinning.

May God forgive me if I have stated something which is false, everything above is only my understanding of Quranic teachings & Islam.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (3 & 4) JESUS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And finally, the questions about Jesus (P)...

I have heard those answers before, and they are not satisfactory to my intellect.

Here is the problem. People say “The Son and the Father are One”… But even Bible shows that that there were things that the Son could not do or did not know, which the Father DID. As GrayAngel quoted: For His second coming, Jesus said that even He didn't know when He'd return, but only the Father knew.

So for those people who say “ONE BEING, 3 REVELATIONS” that conflicts with Jesus’s limitations. If JESUS and FATHER are ONE, then they would be ‘ONE’ in knowledge, power, ability.

‘I can do nothing of my own authority'
(John 5:30)


So the above verse indicates that Jesus (SON) is somehow on a lower level than GOD (Father)? Indicating he did not have the same “authority” as God?
There are other verses in the Bible that would go against Jesus being on the same level as GOD. Does that mean that GOD is above JESUS who is above HOLY SPIRIT? That logic would at least explain some of the statements in the Bible.

The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him.
(Acts 3:13)


The disciples of Jesus knew him as a servant of God, not LITERAL SON OF GOD. They would have known best… And it seems like it would have been made CLEAR that he is the LITERAL SON of God… And verses such as the one above wouldn’t have been placed in the Bible, which point to Jesus being nothing more than a Servant of God...

Also, did Jesus (SON) exist even before his body was created on this earth or did this 3rd ‘revelation of God’ come into existence only 2000 years ago?

For the H2O analogy... So do you believe God to be like those three in the sense that you can have them all 3 present at once in 1 room? Or do you believe to be them 3 different "types" but all ONE type still? Meaning, you can have water, gas, and ice all present in a room... Do you believe in the trinity in that sense? Or do you claim that they are all somehow ONE, while being 3 different "forms"...

To me, saying "Jesus is fully divine and fully human" is like saying "something is a square and a circle at the same time"... my brain can't accept & process that statement.

Qur’an teaches that Jesus (like all other prophets & messengers of God) was just a human. He was born through a virgin birth, as God said “be and in was”…

"Behold! the angels said, 'Oh Mary! God gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him. His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter, and in (the company of) those nearest to God. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. He shall be (in the company) of the righteous... And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel'"
(Quran 3:45-48).


One of the most fascinating verses in the Qur’an to me is the following:
"And behold! God will say [i.e. on the Day of Judgment]: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'"
(Quran 5:116-117)
.

Quran the final revelation from God to man. The above verse shows that GOD wanted to correct the error man has fallen into when it comes to Jesus Christ and He revealed that verse, to clarify the case with Jesus and to give Christians clear guidance, who are seeking guidance.

The Quran defines itself right off the bat, with one of my favorite verses:
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God.
(Quran 2:2)


Early followers of Christ believed him to be a servant of God. The concept of his divinity was later introduced, which explains why NOWHERE in the Bible does it clearly state “JESUS IS GOD”… The church has translated the books to their desires and has taken ambiguous statements and made them hint to trinity.

The word trinity is nowhere in the Bible.

The answer “the trinity is a mystery that cannot be comprehended by human brain” doesn’t suffice for me because I cannot accept that GOD would ask his servants to accept something that goes against their intellect. “Have faith” is not enough for me… I can say that I have looked for the truth, and I just have trouble believing that GOD would send me to HELL because I refused to accept that He had a SON... Which was against my human intellect in the first place.

God is my witness that I am NOT trying to be hateful or insult your religion. I am trying to make myself understand and I am trying to show you my perspective, which plays a role in why I can't understand the twists & turns in modern day Christianity. It asks a lot of "mental gymnastics" to be performed just to be able to understand it's basic beliefs. The staff on this board may get upset at my post and delete it perhaps, because I pose questions Christians would rather avoid, and I provide a comparison answer which seems more logical and God-like.

Coming from a faith which believes in the COMPLETE ONENESS of GOD, it is hard to comprehend that GOD having a Son. God says in the Qur’an that He is ABOVE having a Son.

I did not realize how long this reply turned out. Please feel free to send me a private message for further discussion; as my response may not be acceptable according to the forum rules…

As-Salamu Alaykum / Peace and blessings be upon you all, my brothers in humanity.
 
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ViaCrucis

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This is going to be slightly unusual in that I think it would be easier to address certain points you bring up without dissecing the entire post snip by snip. In other words I'm not quoting the entire post, but rather addressing the points you raise mostly by piecemeal.

In terms of angels and Satan etc, it's probably simple enough that we acknowledge where our religions depart on the matter. I wouldn't bring it up at all, except to mention that it may be helpful to understand "Lucifer" in terms of some context.

Lucifer has for at least several hundred years (not sure how long exactly) been used in the West as the proper name for the devil. I just wanted to address a few facts concerning that just for the sake of information.

The word "lucifer" is Latin, and it comes from the Latin translation found in Isaiah chapter 14. It means, roughly, "day-star" and is a reference to the planet Venus, the Hebrew text says "heylel" in Isaiah 14:12, it's the noun form of halal, meaning "to shine" and is used also to describe the act of praise (such as in the word hallelujah, Halal+Yah, "praise YAH[WEH]). Thus "shining (one)", a reference to the day star, Venus, the brightest "star" in the sky. The Greek text of the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) translates it as heosphoros, which from what I can gather literally translated means "before-light", or more poetically dawn-bringer, that is the light that appears before the sunrise, morning star. Again, it refers to the planet Venus.

The text, in context, is part of a prophecy directed to the "king of Babylon", thus a human being is intended. However, at some point the passage came to be taken as a description of Satan's fall, thus the text was read anagogically, that is read to refer to metaphysical or more secret things than the simple "plain" reading itself. My guess is that this is a medieval circumstance, but I'm really not sure. In any event eventually the anagogical reading has taken over as the primary reading, and thus the term "lucifer" has been taken as the devil's proper name, particularly because of its inclusion as such in the King James Version of the Bible, the most popular English language Bible in the past four hundred years (modern translations typically render the original Hebrew text plainly, rather than appropriate from the Latin).

Again, just some information that I think is of interest.

---------

Now as far as Adam is concerned, this one gets trickier.

The most common view, I'd wager, with which you are familiar is some form of the doctrine of Original Sin. What makes this tricky is two-fold:

1) The doctrine of Original Sin is unique only to Western Christianity (Catholicism and Protestantism, broadly speaking), Eastern Christianity (Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, including the Greek, Russian, Syriac, et al Churches) have never subscribed to the doctrine of Original Sin.

The reason for this is actually fairly simple, the basic formula of the doctrine Original Sin comes from the writings of St. Augustine of Hippo in the 5th century, Augustine became one of the most important (if not THE most important) theologians in the West. Augustine dominates the theological landscape of Western Christianity, not just as a theologian, but as a philosopher as well. So important has Augustine been in the West that in the middle ages the genius theologians and philosophers, most significantly St. Thomas Aquinas, had to be very careful not to ruffle any feathers by implying Augustine was wrong. Likewise, the Protestant Reformers, in particular Martin Luther and John Calvin, were strongly attached to St. Augustine, and saw their theology as distinctly Augustinian (especially John Calvin) and a revival of pre-medieval Christian teaching.

However, Augustine had no influence in the East. He is recognized as a Saint in the East, but his writings were never translated into Greek until the last several hundred years, as such the Eastern Churches were almost completely unfamiliar with his work for most of history, and he never had much influence if any at all.

Thus it's important to keep in mind that the doctrine of Original Sin, in and of itself, is distinctively Western, and only represents the theology of Catholicism and Protestantism, thus one shouldn't generalize all of Christianity by it.

2) This is perhaps the trickier part: The doctrine of Original Sin is, problematically, one of the least well explained teachings one may encounter when discussing Christianity. A reason for this is that it's usually pretty sloppily presented as "Adam messed up, so now God is punishing all of us for it." It's actually far more complex than that, and far more nuanced in many ways.

The best way I can think of, perhaps, to offer a more technical "official" explanation of Original Sin is to quote how the Roman Catholic Church teaches it, and thus I'll quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church (bear in mind that I'm not Roman Catholic):

"Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God's command. This is what man's first sin consisted of. All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully "divinized" by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to "be like God", but "without God, before God, and not in accordance with God".

Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness. They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.

The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul's spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination. Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject "to its bondage to decay". Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will "return to the ground", for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.

After that first sin, the world is virtually inundated by sin There is Cain's murder of his brother Abel and the universal corruption which follows in the wake of sin. Likewise, sin frequently manifests itself in the history of Israel, especially as infidelity to the God of the Covenant and as transgression of the Law of Moses. And even after Christ's atonement, sin raises its head in countless ways among Christians. Scripture and the Church's Tradition continually recall the presence and universality of sin in man's history: What Revelation makes known to us is confirmed by our own experience. For when man looks into his own heart he finds that he is drawn towards what is wrong and sunk in many evils which cannot come from his good creator. Often refusing to acknowledge God as his source, man has also upset the relationship which should link him to his last end, and at the same time he has broken the right order that should reign within himself as well as between himself and other men and all creatures.

All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms: "By one man's disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners": "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned." The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."

Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the "death of the soul". Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.

How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man". By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act." - Catechism of the Catholic Church 397-404 (may be easier to read more here Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 1 PARAGRAPH 7)

Thus we are not so much talking about being punished for Adam's transgressions, but rather inheriting Adam as a whole, as we are his offspring. Adam's brokenness is passed on to us. Western theology speaks of concupiscence, the inward-desires; that we inherit from Adam a state of being human weakened and broken driven toward selfish and self-directed lusts, desires; and this is the source of "personal sin", or actual acts of sin.

This is important to point out because, again, it's one of the most troublesome doctrines to try and properly communicate, again in part because it is often so sloppily communicated.

It is worth mentioning that I'm not wholly certain where I stand on the issue, I don't entirely disagree, but in many ways I probably side closer to the Eastern view, usually known as "Ancestral Sin", which departs in many significant ways.

------------

As for the Son, we keep in mind two things:

1) He was entirely human, and thus we confess He assumed the limitations and weaknesses that comes with being human. Jesus could say He didn't know the timing of the Parousia, not because He isn't by nature God, but simply because He willingly assumed the limitations of being human.

2) We confess that the Son always lovingly submits to the Father, not because the Son is less than the Father or subordinate to Him in nature; but rather because the Son loves the Father. The Father loves the Son and pours Himself out to the Son, and the Son likewise loves the Father and pours Himself back out to the Father. Thus the Son can lovingly submit to His Father, call Him greater, without at any point being less than Almighty God Himself. This demands a rather radical re-understanding of what we mean by Divinity itself; because Divinity becomes defined not by power but by love and servanthood. God displays His awesome Divinity, not by a show of power and might; but by revealing Himself as Servant, as One who lays Himself down, who pours Himself out, who gives freely of Himself out of unconditional love. God reveals Himself as being truly God, not in spite of the Cross, but because of it.

This is not a theological bit tacked on because it gives theologians something to rack their brains over; it is rather the very heart and soul of the Christian religion. The entire Christian religion really hinges upon this radical, subversive, upside-down paradox of God-crucified. Jesus Christ crucified on the cross in weakness, as victim, as powerlessness is not antithesis to God as God is; but is rather the purest, most naked portrait of God as He eternally and truly is. It is everything God has ever tried to communicate to us, that He is the weak victim of Mt. Calvary; and paradoxically it is principally here that all salvation, all hope, all victory can be found. Life springs from Death, rendering Death impotent, violence is crushed, no sword, no weapon of man can prevail: the God of Peace has conquered, not by the brute force of sword or word; but by His full subsummation into Victimhood, as the Word made flesh, as God-with-us, here with us in all of our sin, all of our misery, all of our sufferings, all of our weakness and fragility. God is the One who offers Himself freely, gives Himself impartially, and suffers willingly with all.

Thus what we see in Christ, revealed in, through, and by Him; is nothing short of the Mystery of God Himself. God's love is always Other-love. Even from before all time, in eternity, God's love is an outpouring love. The Father loving the Son, pouring Himself out; the Son loving the Father, pouring Himself out; the Spirit breathing, loving, blowing, moving, proceeding. One God, Three Persons, Holy Trinity. In One Another, never separate, never parted, never divided, always One, Whole, Eternal, Almighty God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (1) ANGELS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


My ignorance of Biblical teachings lead me to assuming...

As for the angels… Islam’s viewpoint on them is that they were created by God to worship, obey, glorify, serve, etc God. They do not have “free-will” to choose NOT to obey God, as that is not in their nature as they were created for purpose of being God's servants. Humans have free will; angels don't.

“They celebrate His praises night and day, nor do they ever slacken.”
(Quran 21:20)

Knowing Islam’s explanation of angels, I assumed it was the same in Christianity as well, but I guess that’s where I assumed wrong. Lucifer (Iblis) in Qur’an became jealous at ADAM (P), not GOD… He became jealous at the fact that Adam (p) had replaced him as God’s favorite creature; as he had pride and arrogance. He was NOT of the Angels. He was a “jinn” who had been a loyal servant of God and his favorite creature before disobeying a ‘showing his true colors’… He then made a supplication to God not to destroy him and to allow him to try to misguide mankind until the Day of Judgment, and God accepted his prayer/supplication.

That is Islam’s view on Angels & Iblis/Lucifer, according to my knowledge of it.
If the angels were made without free will than they are like machines, so their worship is not done with a Godly type Love, but more like a robotic type love which the bible would describe as worthless and no “Love” at all. God might as well be listening to a record and have machines serving him. Do you see this?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (2) ADAM'S SIN ("ORIGINAL SIN") ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Again, my ignorance of Biblical teachings has lead me to another incorrect assumption.

According to the Quran, Adam repented...

“Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.”
(Quran 2:37)

As you can see, Quran teaches us that Adam repented and asked for forgiveness, and God forgave him… (no original sin)

As for the answer that “sin is paid back with blood sacrifice”… To me, it doesn’t make sense that God would require blood sacrifice as well. I believe God is more merciful than that, I guess. I see humans forgiving murder without sacrifice, and I don't believe them to be more merciful than God.

The “result of Adam’s fall remains”? Not according to Deuteronomy, as far as I understand it.

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”
(Deuteronomy 24:16)

“…No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another…”
(Quran 6:164)

By the verses from the Qur’an and the Bible, it would point to us not carrying the sin of Adam even if he did not repent.

Again, Quran teaches that Adam repented, God accepted, and we don’t carry the sin... We are born without sin. So it's hard for me to comprehend the Biblical version where God has to KILL somebody in order to forgive Adam for sinning.

May God forgive me if I have stated something which is false, everything above is only my understanding of Quranic teachings & Islam.

You show good wisdom here.

Among those that call themselves Christians there is lots of differences on this subject.

Adam could definitely have repented and God could easily have forgiven him, but that does not mean there was no sin. There is sin and forgiveness of the sin.

You are very right to point out we do not inherit sin, but we did inherit the new knowledge of “good and evil”, which like everything else actually helps us.

Adam and Eve’s sinning just meant that the best man/woman ever made tried and failed to fulfill their earthly objective without sinning. Since no only human could do any better than Adam and Eve, all mature adults in the future would have to sin. Sin actually helps man fulfill his objective and sin is not the problem (while unforgiven sin can be a huge problem). (Christ did not sin because he was more than just human, which is another subject.)

Did Adam/Eve bring death into the world?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (3 & 4) JESUS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



And finally, the questions about Jesus (P)...

I have heard those answers before, and they are not satisfactory to my intellect.


You do well to see how three does not equal one. I do not understand it either.

Can Allah be in multiple places at the same time?

It would be nice if you addressed my post 7, I would like to know what we do agree on about the Christ?



 
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hedrick

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1) You're really asking about common Christian legends, not anything in the Bible, or anything that's particularly important to Christian theology. The Bible doesn't say much about angels. But it looks like they are spiritual, i.e. not limited to a body, and that (unlike humans) that are capable of not sinning. But they still have free will, and can decide to sin. I'm not sure whether that makes them perfect or not. I suppose the ones who haven't sinned are perfect in some sense.

2) I'm going to give you an answer that I think agrees with the Bible, but not necessarily most Christians. I think God was perfectly able to forgive people. The point of Jesus is that in union with him we die to our old lives of sin and receive new life through the power of his resurrection. That is, without Jesus, God would have been able to forgive people, but Jesus was needed to regenerate them. God isn't satisfied just ignoring our sin. He wants to deal with it.

I don't think we can say that Jesus is the only possible way God could have given us new life. It's just the way he chose to do it.

3) The term "son" is metaphorical. Many Muslims misunderstand what it means. Jesus is simply God's way of participating in human life as a human. So when we worship Christ, we're worshipping the one God, because it's that God who became human in Christ. In effect Jesus is God's human form.

4) When God joined us in human life, he did so through a full human existence. That's Jesus. So Jesus is God's human form.

I think calling him "divine" is dangerous. Divine is an adjective. Using it implies that conceivably there could be more than one thing that's divine. But that's wrong. There's only one God. So I prefer to say that Jesus was a human being who was used by God as God's own presence in human life. Thus he was both a human being and God.
 
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Radagast

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God is a title and not a name as in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. One God three deities.

This is not the Trinitarian concept of God, which mainstream Christianity shares, and which is required on CF. This is what Christians believe:

(1) Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith; (2) Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

(3) And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; (4) Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. (5) For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the Holy Spirit. (6) But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal. (7) Such as the Father is, such is the Son and such is the Holy Spirit. (8) The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit uncreate. (9) The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. (10) The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. (11) And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal. (12) As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensibles, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. (13) So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; (14) And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty. (15) So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; (16) And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. (17) So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; (18) And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord. (19) For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord; (20) so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say: There are three Gods or three Lords. (21) The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. (22) The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten. (23) The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. (24) So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. (25) And in this Trinity none is afore, nor after another; none is greater, or less than another. (26) But the whole three persons are co-eternal, and co-equal. (27) So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. (28) He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

(29) Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. (30) For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. (31) God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and made of the substance of His mother, born in the world. (32) Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. (33) Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood. (34) Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. (35) One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the manhood into God. (36) One altogether, not by the confusion of substance, but by unity of person. (37) For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; (38) Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; (39) He ascended into heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; (40) From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. (41) At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; (42) And shall give account of their own works. (43) And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

(44) This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.
 
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Radagast

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Lucifer (Iblis) in Qur’an became jealous at ADAM (P), not GOD… He became jealous at the fact that Adam (p) had replaced him as God’s favorite creature; as he had pride and arrogance. He was NOT of the Angels. He was a “jinn” who had been a loyal servant of God and his favorite creature before disobeying ...

This does not seem all that different from the Christian idea of "fallen angels," who were created good but disobeyed God. My understanding is that Islam teaches that the Jinn were created with free will.
 
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GrayAngel

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (1) ANGELS ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My ignorance of Biblical teachings lead me to assuming...

As for the angels… Islam’s viewpoint on them is that they were created by God to worship, obey, glorify, serve, etc God. They do not have “free-will” to choose NOT to obey God, as that is not in their nature as they were created for purpose of being God's servants. Humans have free will; angels don't.

“They celebrate His praises night and day, nor do they ever slacken.”
(Quran 21:20)


Knowing Islam’s explanation of angels, I assumed it was the same in Christianity as well, but I guess that’s where I assumed wrong. Lucifer (Iblis) in Qur’an became jealous at ADAM (P), not GOD… He became jealous at the fact that Adam (p) had replaced him as God’s favorite creature; as he had pride and arrogance. He was NOT of the Angels. He was a “jinn” who had been a loyal servant of God and his favorite creature before disobeying a ‘showing his true colors’… He then made a supplication to God not to destroy him and to allow him to try to misguide mankind until the Day of Judgment, and God accepted his prayer/supplication.

That is Islam’s view on Angels & Iblis/Lucifer, according to my knowledge of it.

As I said, the Bible doesn't teach that anyone has free will, whether human or angel. God is the only one with free will. Many Christians do believe in free will, but there is not scriptural justification for it.

As for Satan, there is something we agree on. The angels do worship God. This is what all of God's creation was made to do. Satan himself is believed to have had the honor to preserve the throne of God. But he became corrupted and tried to take the throne for himself.

It is possible that the creation of man may have contributed to it, but I don't believe that Bible has anything to say on the specifics. All we know is that he led 1/3 of Heaven's angels in rebellion, then he tempted Adam and Eve and caused them to rebel.

What is the difference between and angel and a "jinn?" Also, why would God choose to answer Satan's prayer and allow him to deceive humanity? Did God have something to gain from it? If we were made to replace Satan as God's favorite creature, wouldn't it be counterproductive to allow Satan to corrupt us and cause us to disobey and hate God? Also, if God could change His mind like that, get bored with one creation and make something more entertaining to take its place, what's to stop that from happening to us? Will God get bored of us and make something better?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (2) ADAM'S SIN ("ORIGINAL SIN") ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Again, my ignorance of Biblical teachings has lead me to another incorrect assumption.

According to the Quran, Adam repented...

“Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.”
(Quran 2:37)


As you can see, Quran teaches us that Adam repented and asked for forgiveness, and God forgave him… (no original sin)

As for the answer that “sin is paid back with blood sacrifice”… To me, it doesn’t make sense that God would require blood sacrifice as well. I believe God is more merciful than that, I guess. I see humans forgiving murder without sacrifice, and I don't believe them to be more merciful than God.

The “result of Adam’s fall remains”? Not according to Deuteronomy, as far as I understand it.

“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”
(Deuteronomy 24:16)

“…No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another…”
(Quran 6:164)


By the verses from the Qur’an and the Bible, it would point to us not carrying the sin of Adam even if he did not repent.

Again, Quran teaches that Adam repented, God accepted, and we don’t carry the sin... We are born without sin. So it's hard for me to comprehend the Biblical version where God has to KILL somebody in order to forgive Adam for sinning.

May God forgive me if I have stated something which is false, everything above is only my understanding of Quranic teachings & Islam.

If Adam was forgiven, then why do we live in this broken world instead of the perfection of the Garden of Eden? In the Bible, God cursed the earth following Adam's sin, making the world the way it is today. Future generations, as a result, would also be born with a natural tendency to sin.

We are not punished for Adam's sin, but because we are sinful ourselves, we inevitably fall into the same trap of sin as Adam. No human being has ever lived without sin, with only one exception. Even David, the "man after God's own heart" slept with another man's wife, got her pregnant, tried to hide it from her husband by tempting him to sleep with her (which he refused on matter of principle), and then ordered the the man to be sent to the front lines of a battle to have him killed.

If David couldn't live a perfect life, what chance do we have? And if we can't do it, doesn't that tell you something has changed since the fall of Adam?

Concerning the mercy of God, I see two problems with that. First, if all we have to do is ask to receive forgiveness, how come I we still have to die? Death is a result of the fall, a consequence of sin. So why is it I can't say a prayer and live forever?

According to Christianity, we must die physically because of Adam. When we die, our corrupted flesh will stay behind and we'll be given perfect bodies in the resurrection. What about Islam? Do we need to die in order to leave our corrupted flesh behind? If so, how did our flesh become corrupted in the first place?

Second, if blood sacrifice isn't necessary, then why did the original followers of God (the Hebrews) do it ritualistically? You're probably familiar with this, but the Jews would use two goats. One would be slain, and its blood sprinkled on the people and on the temple. The second goat is where we get the term "scapegoat." It would be led far away from city and pushed off a cliff. What was the purpose of these sacrifices?

In my view, God is not any less merciful than us. Far from it. God is capable of forgiving far more than we are capable of forgiving. But are justice system also pales in comparison to God's. At the end of the world, God will judge all of us by what we've done.

A perfect justice system would be like God's. Every act of evil will be punished based on the degree of its severity. For a murderer, perhaps they'll be experience the act of murder through the eyes of their victim's. When we let a murderer our of jail, we have not made them pay their debt in full. They've just served a small sentence that man decided he should serve. Modern jails are generally made for rehabilitation, not true justice.
 
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