A discussion of the Deep Things of God

[Gary K]

I understand what you are saying, but we need not expect a grand work to come to our lives. It has no bearing on our salvation

Consider God’s word

I desire obedience rather than sacrifice

The story of the widow that gave two pennies. Jesus praised her action rather than the earthly effect of her work.

There will be many people at the throne of grace that say they have done many wonderful works but God will say I never knew you.

This is what it means to say we are not saved by works, but we still must cooperate with grace.
Jesus never tells us to just believe in Him and do nothing, but strive for obedience and not to be seen of men.
Prayer Fasting and almsgiving are works that the Catholic Church tells us to do. They are works that we use to discipline our flesh, and Jesus told us how to do them. When you pray, pray in secret, when you fast do what you can to not let others know you are fasting, when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. Your Father in heaven who sees in secret will reward you openly.

Those that pray, fast and give alms to be seen of men and receive their respect have already received their reward. If we are not to do works as Christians why would Jesus distinguish how we should do them?

The other scripture that may cause confusion in some is let your light shine before men, and they will see the good that you do and give glory to God. These are not works that earn the praise of men, but cause them to wonder. These are acts of obedience.

I used to think this meant give verbal testimony and lead others to Jesus. Nope, that work falls under the first category. If people see you as a man that talks a good game and convinces many people to come to a verbal pronouncement of Jesus, you have received your reward.

The Catholic Church teaches that the works to be seen before men are acts of obedience. Love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you. Be as a little child and learn the faith, think not that you are good enough on your own, but take the counsel of those that have gone before you. Do we obey Jesus in what He says?
He says deny yourself and take up your cross. Do we deny our fleshly appetites and follow His commands regarding them? Do we take counsel from the early Church and keep Christianity as a consistent Gospel? Or are we too cool for school and think we know better because we are modern? Do we mortify our flesh and take the path of poverty, contempt, and humility, or would we rather have wealth, vain glory, and pride?
Answers to these questions tell us if we are one the path to life, waiting for a grand gesture or an amazing work that may come, but we have to not let it distract us from what we should be doing.

The Catholic Church teaches discipline in these works. Prayer is important and a daily prayer life is essential for the Christian. Some accuse us of repetitive prayers and vain speaking, but this would only be true if we were looking for the praise of men, or we thought God does not hear us so we have to repeat ourselves. That is not the case. We use repetitive prayer as a form of discipline, the way a body builder uses repetitive motion to strengthen his muscles. God knows what we need before we ask, but our flesh is weak. So we use repetitive prayer to remind us of what God has done and meditate on His wondrous deeds. It gets the focus off of ourselves and on the Lord. A prayer life gets us a chance to meditate on the Lord and the repetition disciplines our body to say holy things instead of vanity. The Rosary is a common repetitive prayer I which we contemplate 20 mysteries of our salvation along with Scriptural and catechetical references of each. It is not a magic spell, though some may say it that way, just as some may rub weights on their skin and not grow strong. The Rosary is ineffective unless used properly

We discipline our bodies to take our hearts off of the things of this world, and focus on obeying God. That is more useful than hoping for a grand plan. Just as marriage is a sacrifice as one spouse gives themselves to the other, it gets quite boring at times, but if we stick with it we are rewarded with a family and we pass from this world surrounded by loved ones. Those that pursue pleasure frequently have no one after a while and die alone. Repetitive prayer is boring just like lifting weights is boring and marriage is boring, but if we sacrifice our time to do it, we are rewarded with a deeper relationship with God in obedience than if we wile away the hours waiting for a grand gesture that may or may never come.

That is Christian teaching. Paul knew that the Christian life is hard when we sacrifice and boring when we don’t make these grand gestures and get amazed by our work for the Lord. That is why he said, if Christ be not raised we are among men most miserable. We sacrifice our flesh to the Lord in this world in order to have eternal joy with the Lord in heaven

How can you say that miracles have no bearing on our salvation?

Hebrews 11: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Miracles help build our faith in God as it is a positive way He builds our trust in Him. I know the miracles He performed in my life have a lot to do with my faith in Him as they demonstrate how much He loves all of us as He performed a lot of miracles even when I was rebelling against Him. Don't the miracles Jesus performed build our faith in Jesus as the Son of God?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

How can you say that miracles have no bearing on our salvation?

Hebrews 11: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Miracles help build our faith in God as it is a positive way He builds our trust in Him. I know the miracles He performed in my life have a lot to do with my faith in Him as they demonstrate how much He loves all of us as He performed a lot of miracles even when I was rebelling against Him. Don't the miracles Jesus performed build our faith in Jesus as the Son of God?

Sorry if I misspoke. Miracles of Jesus lead us to faith in Him and show that He is from God. What I meant to say is that our performing of miracles will have no bearing on our salvation unless we submit to God in obedience.

Too often, our prayer is “use me Jesus”, as if we could become part of a great work, lead many to the Lord or perform a miracle, God would surely love me and I don’t have to worry.
Not so fast. What does Jesus say at the Judgement? Consider Matthew 7


22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. 24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand


Our working of miracles or making a grand gesture does not justify us before God. Consider 1 Corinthians 13

[1] If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [2] And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [3] And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.


Charity is not just loving our neighbor which is only the second great commandment. The first is to love God with our whole heart whole mind and whole soul. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments.

It is far better to serve God in obedience than to pray for the ability to work a miracle, prophesy, move mountains with faith or speak in tongues

Do you agree?

 

[Gary K]

Sorry if I misspoke. Miracles of Jesus lead us to faith in Him and show that He is from God. What I meant to say is that our performing of miracles will have no bearing on our salvation unless we submit to God in obedience.

Too often, our prayer is “use me Jesus”, as if we could become part of a great work, lead many to the Lord or perform a miracle, God would surely love me and I don’t have to worry.
Not so fast. What does Jesus say at the Judgement? Consider Matthew 7


22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. 24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand


Our working of miracles or making a grand gesture does not justify us before God. Consider 1 Corinthians 13

[1] If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [2] And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [3] And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.


Charity is not just loving our neighbor which is only the second great commandment. The first is to love God with our whole heart whole mind and whole soul. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments.

It is far better to serve God in obedience than to pray for the ability to work a miracle, prophesy, move mountains with faith or speak in tongues

Do you agree?

I don't say I have prayed for miracle all my life. I have asked a few times for Him to meet the needs of my wife and I and He has answered my prayers. I'll give you a couple recent examples.

We have a 2002 Honda Accord EX with the v6 in it. My wife's boss gave us the car after my wife ran our old one out of water and cracked the block. That was a miracle neither one of us asked for. Her boss is a notorius tightwad and only pays my wife minimum wage. And I'm disabled due to an off the job back injury. I applied for disability not long after I was hurt and was denied. It wasn't until more than a decade later that I applied and received disability payments. That lasted a couple years until SS told me that they could retire me at their pleasure as I hadn't applied until after I turned 62. So all those years that passed lowered the amount of SS I could receive. The result is I get very little SS every month.

Now, the car we were given has only gotten between 7 and 8 mpg in town. I've asked my heavenly Father to fix it but up until this week he hasn't done anything about it. I don't know how much the mileage has improved but it's more than doubled as I reset the odometer and I've driven almost 85 miles since then and it has used less than 1/4 tank of gas. Before I would have had to put $25 into the tank and it would have been gone at around 42 to 45 miles of town driving

The other one was the element in our clothes dryer quit working. I knew we could afford a service call and the price of parts So I bowed my head right there and asked God to fix it. I's been drying the clothe for a couple of months now.

I never ask God for anything other than what we need. I'm not out to make myself appear as someone who is really something. I just ask that our needs be filled.

Jesus says we receive not because we ask not and that our heavenly Father knows we need food, clothes and shelter. Not a sparrow falls that He doesn't notice and that we are woth more than many sparrows.

 

[Gary K]

I understand what you are saying, but we need not expect a grand work to come to our lives. It has no bearing on our salvation

Consider God’s word

I desire obedience rather than sacrifice

The story of the widow that gave two pennies. Jesus praised her action rather than the earthly effect of her work.

There will be many people at the throne of grace that say they have done many wonderful works but God will say I never knew you.

This is what it means to say we are not saved by works, but we still must cooperate with grace.
Jesus never tells us to just believe in Him and do nothing, but strive for obedience and not to be seen of men.
Prayer Fasting and almsgiving are works that the Catholic Church tells us to do. They are works that we use to discipline our flesh, and Jesus told us how to do them. When you pray, pray in secret, when you fast do what you can to not let others know you are fasting, when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. Your Father in heaven who sees in secret will reward you openly.

Those that pray, fast and give alms to be seen of men and receive their respect have already received their reward. If we are not to do works as Christians why would Jesus distinguish how we should do them?

The other scripture that may cause confusion in some is let your light shine before men, and they will see the good that you do and give glory to God. These are not works that earn the praise of men, but cause them to wonder. These are acts of obedience.

I used to think this meant give verbal testimony and lead others to Jesus. Nope, that work falls under the first category. If people see you as a man that talks a good game and convinces many people to come to a verbal pronouncement of Jesus, you have received your reward.

The Catholic Church teaches that the works to be seen before men are acts of obedience. Love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you. Be as a little child and learn the faith, think not that you are good enough on your own, but take the counsel of those that have gone before you. Do we obey Jesus in what He says?
He says deny yourself and take up your cross. Do we deny our fleshly appetites and follow His commands regarding them? Do we take counsel from the early Church and keep Christianity as a consistent Gospel? Or are we too cool for school and think we know better because we are modern? Do we mortify our flesh and take the path of poverty, contempt, and humility, or would we rather have wealth, vain glory, and pride?
Answers to these questions tell us if we are one the path to life, waiting for a grand gesture or an amazing work that may come, but we have to not let it distract us from what we should be doing.

The Catholic Church teaches discipline in these works. Prayer is important and a daily prayer life is essential for the Christian. Some accuse us of repetitive prayers and vain speaking, but this would only be true if we were looking for the praise of men, or we thought God does not hear us so we have to repeat ourselves. That is not the case. We use repetitive prayer as a form of discipline, the way a body builder uses repetitive motion to strengthen his muscles. God knows what we need before we ask, but our flesh is weak. So we use repetitive prayer to remind us of what God has done and meditate on His wondrous deeds. It gets the focus off of ourselves and on the Lord. A prayer life gets us a chance to meditate on the Lord and the repetition disciplines our body to say holy things instead of vanity. The Rosary is a common repetitive prayer I which we contemplate 20 mysteries of our salvation along with Scriptural and catechetical references of each. It is not a magic spell, though some may say it that way, just as some may rub weights on their skin and not grow strong. The Rosary is ineffective unless used properly

We discipline our bodies to take our hearts off of the things of this world, and focus on obeying God. That is more useful than hoping for a grand plan. Just as marriage is a sacrifice as one spouse gives themselves to the other, it gets quite boring at times, but if we stick with it we are rewarded with a family and we pass from this world surrounded by loved ones. Those that pursue pleasure frequently have no one after a while and die alone. Repetitive prayer is boring just like lifting weights is boring and marriage is boring, but if we sacrifice our time to do it, we are rewarded with a deeper relationship with God in obedience than if we wile away the hours waiting for a grand gesture that may or may never come.

That is Christian teaching. Paul knew that the Christian life is hard when we sacrifice and boring when we don’t make these grand gestures and get amazed by our work for the Lord. That is why he said, if Christ be not raised we are among men most miserable. We sacrifice our flesh to the Lord in this world in order to have eternal joy with the Lord in heaven

Where did I say miracles are some sort of foundation for salvation? They show us the love of God in clear unmistakable ways. They demonstrate that we know God well enough that He trusts us and that He has a plan for our lives. Knowing God, having a close intimate relationship with Him is what it takes to save us.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus tells us that it is in having a close personal relationship with He and His Father that is eternal life. Who are set aside for destruction during the judgment? Those who Jesus does not know as they have never put forth the effort to get to know Him personally. This is taught all throughout scripture once you realize it is the foundation of salvation. Until I truly understood this I didn't see it in scripture.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Where did I say miracles are some sort of foundation for salvation? They show us the love of God in clear unmistakable ways. They demonstrate that we know God well enough that He trusts us and that He has a plan for our lives. Knowing God, having a close intimate relationship with Him is what it takes to save us.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus tells us that it is in having a close personal relationship with He and His Father that is eternal life. Who are set aside for destruction during the judgment? Those who Jesus does not know as they have never put forth the effort to get to know Him personally. This is taught all throughout scripture once you realize it is the foundation of salvation. Until I truly understood this I didn't see it in scripture.

We develop a personal and intimate relationship with Jesus through obedience. As He said in the scriptures that I showed you. There are some that have miracles in their lives but then ignore obedience and therefore holiness.
I am not accusing you of being one of those. I merely point out, as our Lord did also, the miracle that we should look for is being cleansed from sin. The gifts that God gives are Faith, Hope, and Charity. Faith to believe that He is and is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. Hope that He will complete His work in us as He promised, and Charity to love God and follow His commands. If we claim to have faith alone and do not examine our lives to grow in obedience, we need to ask ourselves if we truly love God and follow Him, or do we love ourselves and want God to follow us?

The difference is subtle but very real. It is why Jesus gave all those warnings about entering by the narrow gate. Narrow is the way, straight is the gate that leads to life. If one is not pursuing obedience, yet relies on miracles, will his faith save him? I would not want to find out

 

[Gary K]

We develop a personal and intimate relationship with Jesus through obedience. As He said in the scriptures that I showed you. There are some that have miracles in their lives but then ignore obedience and therefore holiness.
I am not accusing you of being one of those. I merely point out, as our Lord did also, the miracle that we should look for is being cleansed from sin. The gifts that God gives are Faith, Hope, and Charity. Faith to believe that He is and is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. Hope that He will complete His work in us as He promised, and Charity to love God and follow His commands. If we claim to have faith alone and do not examine our lives to grow in obedience, we need to ask ourselves if we truly love God and follow Him, or do we love ourselves and want God to follow us?

The difference is subtle but very real. It is why Jesus gave all those warnings about entering by the narrow gate. Narrow is the way, straight is the gate that leads to life. If one is not pursuing obedience, yet relies on miracles, will his faith save him? I would not want to find out

I think you have that backwards. It's one of my objections to Catholicism. We become obedient through knowing God. Obedience is the fruit of the Spirit in our lives.

Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

These two verses cover both definitions of sin in the Bible. Transgression of the law and whatsoever is not of faith.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I think you have that backwards. It's one of my objections to Catholicism. We become obedient through knowing God. Obedience is the fruit of the Spirit in our lives.

Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

These two verses cover both definitions of sin in the Bible. Transgression of the law and whatsoever is not of faith.

It’s not backward according to the Bible. And that is my objection to Protestantism.

When I was Protestant we always had talks and small groups on the fruit of the Spirit, but we were never told how to get it. They would say oh just believe and it will come to you. The Bible does not teach that, as clearly told in James 4, we must first obey then the fruit will come, obedience is not a fruit mentioned in scripture but must be worked at

James 4

7 Be subject therefore to God, but resist the devil, and he will fly from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners: and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned into mourning, and your joy into sorrow. 10 Be humbled in the sight of the Lord, and he will exalt you.

Obedience is not listed as a fruit of the Spirit in Galatians because it is not, rather the fruit comes from obedience

The seven virtues of a Christian are

Humility
Chastiity
Kindness
Patience
Generosity
Temperance
Diligence

Virtue means habit, and to build a habit requires work. To work is to obey. When one obeys and attains virtue, the fruit of the spirit naturally follow

 

[bbbbbbb]

It’s not backward according to the Bible. And that is my objection to Protestantism.

When I was Protestant we always had talks and small groups on the fruit of the Spirit, but we were never told how to get it. They would say oh just believe and it will come to you. The Bible does not teach that, as clearly told in James 4, we must first obey then the fruit will come, obedience is not a fruit mentioned in scripture but must be worked at

James 4

7 Be subject therefore to God, but resist the devil, and he will fly from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners: and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned into mourning, and your joy into sorrow. 10 Be humbled in the sight of the Lord, and he will exalt you.

Obedience is not listed as a fruit of the Spirit in Galatians because it is not, rather the fruit comes from obedience

The seven virtues of a Christian are

Humility
Chastiity
Kindness
Patience
Generosity
Temperance
Diligence

Virtue means habit, and to build a habit requires work. To work is to obey. When one obeys and attains virtue, the fruit of the spirit naturally follow

I have pleaded and pleaded with my raspberry plants to please, please start bearing fruit, but do you think they have listened to me and put forth even the tiniest effort to produce fruit for me? No! Not on your life. I am going to burn them up this year and make them really suffer for their disobedience.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I have pleaded and pleaded with my raspberry plants to please, please start bearing fruit, but do you think they have listened to me and put forth even the tiniest effort to produce fruit for me? No! Not on your life. I am going to burn them up this year and make them really suffer for their disobedience.

Your point is?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Your point is?

Fruit, either physical or spiritual, is not the result of the plant, either physical or spiritual, exerting itself to produce the fruit.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Jesus knows that we can’t bear fruit on our own. There are plenty of examples in scripture.

We have than man that cried to the Lord. I believe, help thou my unbelief. We are told the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak, and Paul recognizes that it is no longer he that lives, but Christ lives in Him. We do not work our way to heaven on our own, Catholics included.
Scripture also tells us that there are things we can do to attain virtue. If we don’t do them, could we really say that we love God? Do we want to follow Him, or do we want Him to follow us?

When first called, He tells us, if any man come after me, let him first deny himself take up his cross and follow me. We know our flesh is weak and to build strength, we need spiritual exercises. We need to deny ourselves, detach our hearts from the things of this world and the esteem of men. That is what He commands is to do. If we don’t do it, we are not following Him, we are mouthing words and mocking Him. Scripture tells us God is not mocked, whatever you sow you will reap.

When we are born again, we are not instantly changed into ultra virtuous super saints. The fact that our flesh is weak, does not absolve us from asking God to help us. Basic exercises are prayer, fasting and almsgiving. Prayer sacrifices your time, fasting sacrifices your pleasure, and almsgiving sacrifices your talent and treasure.

Scripture does not teach us that we do not have to sacrifice because Jesus already did it all.
Simple things. Scripture says that if you are faithful in little things you will be given more. If we can’t even bring ourselves to pray, fast or give alms, what do we do?

The Christian life is hard. Jesus warns us on several occasions. He says narrow is the way, straight is the gate that leads to life. Enter by the narrow gate.
Some think that the Christian life should be easy and trouble is a sign that we don’t have faith and God is not pleased. That is the lie of the prosperity gospel. According to scripture, we are to beware when they all speak well of us
Luke 6:26 and rejoice when we are hated for Jesus’ sake. Matthew 5:11-12 and Matthew 10:22-25
We are not hated just for speaking the name of Jesus, but for doing what He tells us to do. Deny ourselves and take up our cross. The biggest lie is that Jesus loves us the way we are. No He loves you for what you could be, and He will take you there if you let Him. If He loves us the way we are then there was no need for Him to die.
If we love Him, we will repent and mourn and weep, for the pain our sins have caused Jesus. Blessed are those who mourn

We do not take sin lightly and have the attitude that we cannot help ourselves, because Hebrews says that if we sin willfully after we have known the truth, we crucify Jesus afresh and bring Him to open shame. If we really loved Him, how could we not mourn for hurting Him so much. While He was enduring His passion, He said weep not for me, but for yourselves and your children. At this Ash Wednesday of 2024, let us remember that we are dust and to dust we shall return, love the Lord by doing good, cease to do evil

 

[bbbbbbb]

Jesus knows that we can’t bear fruit on our own. There are plenty of examples in scripture.

We have than man that cried to the Lord. I believe, help thou my unbelief. We are told the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak, and Paul recognizes that it is no longer he that lives, but Christ lives in Him. We do not work our way to heaven on our own, Catholics included.
Scripture also tells us that there are things we can do to attain virtue. If we don’t do them, could we really say that we love God? Do we want to follow Him, or do we want Him to follow us?

When first called, He tells us, if any man come after me, let him first deny himself take up his cross and follow me. We know our flesh is weak and to build strength, we need spiritual exercises. We need to deny ourselves, detach our hearts from the things of this world and the esteem of men. That is what He commands is to do. If we don’t do it, we are not following Him, we are mouthing words and mocking Him. Scripture tells us God is not mocked, whatever you sow you will reap.

When we are born again, we are not instantly changed into ultra virtuous super saints. The fact that our flesh is weak, does not absolve us from asking God to help us. Basic exercises are prayer, fasting and almsgiving. Prayer sacrifices your time, fasting sacrifices your pleasure, and almsgiving sacrifices your talent and treasure.

Scripture does not teach us that we do not have to sacrifice because Jesus already did it all.
Simple things. Scripture says that if you are faithful in little things you will be given more. If we can’t even bring ourselves to pray, fast or give alms, what do we do?

The Christian life is hard. Jesus warns us on several occasions. He says narrow is the way, straight is the gate that leads to life. Enter by the narrow gate.
Some think that the Christian life should be easy and trouble is a sign that we don’t have faith and God is not pleased. That is the lie of the prosperity gospel. According to scripture, we are to beware when they all speak well of us
Luke 6:26 and rejoice when we are hated for Jesus’ sake. Matthew 5:11-12 and Matthew 10:22-25
We are not hated just for speaking the name of Jesus, but for doing what He tells us to do. Deny ourselves and take up our cross. The biggest lie is that Jesus loves us the way we are. No He loves you for what you could be, and He will take you there if you let Him. If He loves us the way we are then there was no need for Him to die.
If we love Him, we will repent and mourn and weep, for the pain our sins have caused Jesus. Blessed are those who mourn

We do not take sin lightly and have the attitude that we cannot help ourselves, because Hebrews says that if we sin willfully after we have known the truth, we crucify Jesus afresh and bring Him to open shame. If we really loved Him, how could we not mourn for hurting Him so much. While He was enduring His passion, He said weep not for me, but for yourselves and your children. At this Ash Wednesday of 2024, let us remember that we are dust and to dust we shall return, love the Lord by doing good, cease to do evil

I would suggest that the Christian life is not merely hard - it is utterly impossible. Mahatma Ghandi had a point when he stated that he might consider Christianity if he ever met an actual Christian. The simple reality is, as John expressed it in the first chapter of his first letter, if we say that we are without sin we are liars and the truth is not in us.

 

[Gary K]

It’s not backward according to the Bible. And that is my objection to Protestantism.

When I was Protestant we always had talks and small groups on the fruit of the Spirit, but we were never told how to get it. They would say oh just believe and it will come to you. The Bible does not teach that, as clearly told in James 4, we must first obey then the fruit will come, obedience is not a fruit mentioned in scripture but must be worked at

James 4

7 Be subject therefore to God, but resist the devil, and he will fly from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners: and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned into mourning, and your joy into sorrow. 10 Be humbled in the sight of the Lord, and he will exalt you.

Obedience is not listed as a fruit of the Spirit in Galatians because it is not, rather the fruit comes from obedience

The seven virtues of a Christian are

Humility
Chastiity
Kindness
Patience
Generosity
Temperance
Diligence

Virtue means habit, and to build a habit requires work. To work is to obey. When one obeys and attains virtue, the fruit of the spirit naturally follow

Let's look at the NC,

Jeremiah 31: 31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Let's focus in verse 34. What is the result of the NC? Everyone who participates in it has the law of God written in their hearts. Jeremiah, a Jew, could have only understood that to include the 4th commandment.

What did Jesus say about knowing God?

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Notice the exact parallels between the results of the NC and Jesus prayer for His disciples. Knowing God is eternal life. Where do these passages leave room for sanctification by works?

Paul agrees.

1Corinthians 1: 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Jesus is our sanctification as He is made unto us sanctification. Again where does that allow room for sanctification by works?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Fruit, either physical or spiritual, is not the result of the plant, either physical or spiritual, exerting itself to produce the fruit.

I don’t disagree with you. Jesus has come to save us, and to increase in righteous and be cleansed from sin, we just have to ask. He has promised to do it.

If it were not for the cross, we would have no way to heaven. We do have the cross, and our Savior that calls us to follow Him in sacrifice.

What happens if we neglect so great a salvation and tell Him we don’t want to serve Him? He said if anyone lack anything as in faith and believing you will receive and I will give it to you. Jesus says He rewards good works, not lip service. Lack good works? Trapped in sin? Just ask Him to heal your spirit. He promised
I can tell you that I lived as a Protestant, and bought into the Jesus did everything and works can’t save me line. It was when I asked God to give me the answers that He heard me. I didn’t get better just by becoming Catholic. It was when Insubmitted to the full authority of His Church and became as a little child, the sin that so easily beset me was gone. I was left wondering what took me so long to repent. I mourn for the wasted years and wasted time in sin, when Incould have just asked, denied myself and submitted. God’s grace flows through the sacraments. It is not fantasy, He is real. The change in my life just over the last five years I never thought possible.
Have you ever felt His rod and His staff? I can tell you it’s real. I am amazed where He has lead me. Psalm 23 has come alive. Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil. Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me
All I had to do was ask Him, deny myself and give up everything. He takes care of the rest.
The pleasures of this world are fleeting and are like sand. The harder you try to hold on, the more it slips through your fingers or as Jesus says we hold onto the pleasures by building cisterns, broken cisterns that can hold no water. Give up the broken cisterns and He gives us rivers of living water

I pray that you come to know the Lord in that way
God bless you

 

[Gary K]

I don’t disagree with you. Jesus has come to save us, and to increase in righteous and be cleansed from sin, we just have to ask. He has promised to do it.

If it were not for the cross, we would have no way to heaven. We do have the cross, and our Savior that calls us to follow Him in sacrifice.

What happens if we neglect so great a salvation and tell Him we don’t want to serve Him? He said if anyone lack anything as in faith and believing you will receive and I will give it to you. Jesus says He rewards good works, not lip service. Lack good works? Trapped in sin? Just ask Him to heal your spirit. He promised
I can tell you that I lived as a Protestant, and bought into the Jesus did everything and works can’t save me line. It was when I asked God to give me the answers that He heard me. I didn’t get better just by becoming Catholic. It was when Insubmitted to the full authority of His Church and became as a little child, the sin that so easily beset me was gone. I was left wondering what took me so long to repent. I mourn for the wasted years and wasted time in sin, when Incould have just asked, denied myself and submitted. God’s grace flows through the sacraments. It is not fantasy, He is real. The change in my life just over the last five years I never thought possible.
Have you ever felt His rod and His staff? I can tell you it’s real. I am amazed where He has lead me. Psalm 23 has come alive. Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil. Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me
All I had to do was ask Him, deny myself and give up everything. He takes care of the rest.
The pleasures of this world are fleeting and are like sand. The harder you try to hold on, the more it slips through your fingers or as Jesus says we hold onto the pleasures by building cisterns, broken cisterns that can hold no water. Give up the broken cisterns and He gives us rivers of living water

I pray that you come to know the Lord in that way
God bless you

Works are the result of faith not the cause of faith.

Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Let's look at the NC,

Jeremiah 31: 31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Let's focus in verse 34. What is the result of the NC? Everyone who participates in it has the law of God written in their hearts. Jeremiah, a Jew, could have only understood that to include the 4th commandment.

What did Jesus say about knowing God?

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Notice the exact parallels between the results of the NC and Jesus prayer for His disciples. Knowing God is eternal life. Where do these passages leave room for sanctification by works?

Paul agrees.

1Corinthians 1: 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Jesus is our sanctification as He is made unto us sanctification. Again where does that allow room for sanctification by works?

Brother your scriptures are all true and agree 100%. It is not I that do it, but Christ that lives in me.

We read in scripture that the Lord will reward each man according to his works. Why would He say that if it were not true? I agree that it is a mystery that requires prayer and contemplation to understand.

Consider Romans 2

6 Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: 8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. 9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. 10 But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

And 1Cor3

11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
16 Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are. 18 Let no man deceive himself: if any man among you seem to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written: I will catch the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again: The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.


We are not saved by our works, but certainly rewarded. Notice that the man that suffered loss still worked, but he used wood hay and stubble instead of gold silver and precious stones

Jesus calls us to simple things. Prayer, fasting and almsgiving. When we are faithful in simple things, He will give us greater works to do

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Works are the result of faith not the cause of faith.

Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them

Amen, but we still walk in them. James gives us the example of Abraham. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.

Faith is not just lip service. Abraham’s faith caused him to take his son and offer him a sacrifice to God. The angel stopped him and God gave a ram for the sacrifice, but would we be reading about Abraham if he just said I believe in God, yet retained all his possessions for him self? His actions came from faith, but he had works with faith, not faith alone

The thief on the cross is another example. People think that he did not have to do anything to be saved. Not so. Everyone was mocking Jesus, even he was also, but the Spirit touched his heart and he rebuked the other thief and suffered the agonizing death of crucifixion. Christ did not lift his suffering in this world, and he died in shame right beside Our Lord. That is not nothing. It came from the Holy Sprit but it was still a work

 

[Gary K]

Amen, but we still walk in them. James gives us the example of Abraham. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.

Faith is not just lip service. Abraham’s faith caused him to take his son and offer him a sacrifice to God. The angel stopped him and God gave a ram for the sacrifice, but would we be reading about Abraham if he just said I believe in God, yet retained all his possessions for him self? His actions came from faith, but he had works with faith, not faith alone

The thief on the cross is another example. People think that he did not have to do anything to be saved. Not so. Everyone was mocking Jesus, even he was also, but the Spirit touched his heart and he rebuked the other thief and suffered the agonizing death of crucifixion. Christ did not lift his suffering in this world, and he died in shame right beside Our Lord. That is not nothing. It came from the Holy Sprit but it was still a work

I fully agree.

But that does not make the the works we do our own works. It is God who works with in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. That leaves no place for us to do any good works of our own. It's called righteousness by faith.

That was the reason for all the conflict during the Reformation and all the people burnt at the stake. God's grace allowed that and caused them to go willingly and Joyfully to their deaths, I don't know if you have ever read D'aubigne's history of the Reformation but he tells of a young guy in Scotland who was burnt at the stake. After he'd been in the midst of the fire for a long time one of his friends asked him if he was still alive. He raised two fingers one on hand. Why only two fingers? The other three were burnt off. A little bit later he died because the chain holding him to the stake had been red hot for a long time and it burnt clear through him and his body collapsed in two pieces. That is the grace of God. If you or I were being burnt at the stake we'd be screaming bloody murder from that kind of pain. No one would have to ask us if we were still alive,

 

[Gary K]

Hey boughtwithaprice,

When you get over being mad at me I'd like to restart our conversation again.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Hey boughtwithaprice,

When you get over being mad at me I'd like to restart our conversation again.

I am sorry that you think I was angry. I assure you that was never the case. We can continue talking anytime