A discussion of the Deep Things of God

[boughtwithaprice]

I was having a conversation with Gary K in another thread, and we were discussing Christian principles. Gary says that I am more Adventist than I know, and I believe Gary is actually discussing Catholic teaching.

The denominational barriers would seem to limit our discussion, so I thought that I would start a thread where neither of us try to convert the other. We merely discuss scripture and be respectful. I believe that I have reached that level with Gary K, and he is going to tell me more about his life. We were in another thread and I would like to hear Gary Ks story, but it was off topic for the thread we were in, so I moved our discussion to this thread.

The conversation will be primarily between Gary K and I, but others are welcome as long as they can be civil. No arguments or thread derailments please. If you reply, keep it focused for the topic at hand

Ok? Gary K can make the first post and tell me about his life and journey with the Lord

 

[BobRyan]

Sounds interesting. But why do you think Gary K views you as leaning toward Adventist POV as compared to Catholic?

 

[Gary K]

Sounds interesting. But why do you think Gary K views you as leaning toward Adventist POV as compared to Catholic?

Read the thread on Sola Scriptura in the traditional Adventist forum.

 

[Gary K]

I was having a conversation with Gary K in another thread, and we were discussing Christian principles. Gary says that I am more Adventist than I know, and I believe Gary is actually discussing Catholic teaching.

The denominational barriers would seem to limit our discussion, so I thought that I would start a thread where neither of us try to convert the other. We merely discuss scripture and be respectful. I believe that I have reached that level with Gary K, and he is going to tell me more about his life. We were in another thread and I would like to hear Gary Ks story, but it was off topic for the thread we were in, so I moved our discussion to this thread.

The conversation will be primarily between Gary K and I, but others are welcome as long as they can be civil. No arguments or thread derailments please. If you reply, keep it focused for the topic at hand

Ok? Gary K can make the first post and tell me about his life and journey with the Lord

And here I thought you would start of the conversation in the Traditional Adventist forum. You're fortunate I found this, although the HS most likely led me to search for posts from another user and that led me to find this forum.

Why don't you let me know exactly where you want to start?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Sounds interesting. But why do you think Gary K views you as leaning toward Adventist POV as compared to Catholic?

Because he said so

 

[boughtwithaprice]

And here I thought you would start of the conversation in the Traditional Adventist forum. You're fortunate I found this, although the HS most likely led me to search for posts from another user and that led me to find this forum.

Why don't you let me know exactly where you want to start?

You last quoted me the passage from Ellen White and told me that I was more Adventist than I thought, and you said you would share more of your life if I was interested.

We can discuss Ms White’s quote, and you can elaborate on your remarks. Also let me know that more of your life that you promised to tell

I started this thread here so that we would have no restrictions on our conversation and you would be free to critique the Catholic Church and I SDA.

Notice that I said critique, not attack misrepresent or inflame. I want to be courteous and I sense that I can expect the same from you
Specific forums may not allow critique and it would be more open here. I am glad you found this to read here

 

[Gary K]

You last quoted me the passage from Ellen White and told me that I was more Adventist than I thought, and you said you would share more of your life if I was interested.

We can discuss Ms White’s quote, and you can elaborate on your remarks. Also let me know that more of your life that you promised to tell

I started this thread here so that we would have no restrictions on our conversation and you would be free to critique the Catholic Church and I SDA.

Notice that I said critique, not attack misrepresent or inflame. I want to be courteous and I sense that I can expect the same from you
Specific forums may not allow critique and it would be more open here. I am glad you found this to read here

I've never seen anyone kicked out of the Traditional Adventist form for respectful discussion. We expect it as our beliefs are seen as peculiar by a lot of people and most people don't look at what forum they are in before they post.

I thought that quote was self explanatory. What part of it do you need help with?

On to my boring life story.

When I was in the 1st or 2nd grade, I have a hard time remembering events by the year so I have to go by where we lived as I did too many drugs, I was running home from school one day I ran out in front of a car on a paved country road as the street I came from was the last street on the edge of town. I heard the screeching of tires and looked to my left as that was where the car was coming from. There was a fire engine red Ford Galaxie with it's brakes locked up coming at me. The drivers eyes looked as big as saucers and his arms and hands were braced against steering wheel. I freaked out and turned to run back the way I had come. The next thing I knew I was standing on the sidewalk again. I turned and looked at the car again and he had slid half way through the intersection. I'd have been dead if my angel hadn't moved me.

Here's another one for free. In my early twenties I was doing a lot of psychedelics. One night I dropped a four way hit of windowpane. I lost it and saw my mind fly out the window. I was so full of anxiety I thought I was going to have a heart attack. There was only one person there that night and he refused to take me to the emergency room no matter how I pleaded with him.

I had anxiety from that for years. In fact until I was rebaptised. Then it just disappeared completely. Ever since then as long as my relationship with my heavenly Father is right it's been gone.

 

[The Liturgist]

I've never seen anyone kicked out of the Traditional Adventist form for respectful discussion. We expect it as our beliefs are seen as peculiar by a lot of people and most people don't look at what forum they are in before they post.

I thought that quote was self explanatory. What part of it do you need help with?

On to my boring life story.

When I was in the 1st or 2nd grade, I have a hard time remembering events by the year so I have to go by where we lived as I did too many drugs, I was running home from school one day I ran out in front of a car on a paved country road as the street I came from was the last street on the edge of town. I heard the screeching of tires and looked to my left as that was where the car was coming from. There was a fire engine red Ford Galaxie with it's brakes locked up coming at me. The drivers eyes looked as big as saucers and his arms and hands were braced against steering wheel. I freaked out and turned to run back the way I had come. The next thing I knew I was standing on the sidewalk again. I turned and looked at the car again and he had slid half way through the intersection. I'd have been dead if my angel hadn't moved me.

Here's another one for free. In my early twenties I was doing a lot of psychedelics. One night I dropped a four way hit of windowpane. I lost it and saw my mind fly out the window. I was so full of anxiety I thought I was going to have a heart attack. There was only one person there that night and he refused to take me to the emergency room no matter how I pleaded with him.

I had anxiety from that for years. In fact until I was rebaptised. Then it just disappeared completely. Ever since then as long as my relationship with my heavenly Father is right it's been gone.

Sorry, just to clarify, you were doing drugs in first and second grade?

 

[Gary K]

Sorry, just to clarify, you were doing drugs in first and second grade?

No. Sorry about confusing you.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

What struck me from that quote from Ellen White was when she said God want us to feel good about ourselves. It sounds like the modern secular psychology that tells people to love themselves. Feels good, but what does scripture say?

We have the Beatitudes that tell us to be poor in spirit, meek, mourn, hunger and thirst, pure in heart, peacemakers, merciful, and prepare for persecution. We are to rejoice that our reward is great in heaven, but it says nothing about ourselves. All of the Beattitudes are directed outward. Toward God, not ourselves.

Feeling good about our selves is a form of pride and Proverbs 16:18 says Pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.

Philippians 2 tells us to think of others as better than ourselves. Romans 12 tells us not to think more highly of ourselves than we ought but with sober judgement

Revelation 3 tells us that God is revolted when we think highly of ourselves and say we are spiritually rich, have acquired wealth and have need of nothing. We are actually miserable blind poor and naked.

Paul says that if Christ be not raised then we are men most miserable. Christianity is a miserable life by worldly standard. We constantly have to judge ourselves, mortify our flesh, endure suffering, accept persecution and love our enemies. We don’t feel good about ourselves, but we have our eye one the prize of salvation. We endure those hardships out of love of God

What is your experience in your assembly? Do others accept criticism? Or do they cry out and say, you don’t make me feel good, you are judging me? Is there a problem with gossip?
Do they want to be recognized for their holiness, or can they accept that they need more and are willing to be humiliated to get it?
My experience was when people hear that they are supposed to feel good about themselves, they won’t endure preaching that does not tickle their ears. Have you felt that ?

 

[Gary K]

What struck me from that quote from Ellen White was when she said God want us to feel good about ourselves. It sounds like the modern secular psychology that tells people to love themselves. Feels good, but what does scripture say?

We have the Beatitudes that tell us to be poor in spirit, meek, mourn, hunger and thirst, pure in heart, peacemakers, merciful, and prepare for persecution. We are to rejoice that our reward is great in heaven, but it says nothing about ourselves. All of the Beattitudes are directed outward. Toward God, not ourselves.

Feeling good about our selves is a form of pride and Proverbs 16:18 says Pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.

Philippians 2 tells us to think of others as better than ourselves. Romans 12 tells us not to think more highly of ourselves than we ought but with sober judgement

Revelation 3 tells us that God is revolted when we think highly of ourselves and say we are spiritually rich, have acquired wealth and have need of nothing. We are actually miserable blind poor and naked.

Paul says that if Christ be not raised then we are men most miserable. Christianity is a miserable life by worldly standard. We constantly have to judge ourselves, mortify our flesh, endure suffering, accept persecution and love our enemies. We don’t feel good about ourselves, but we have our eye one the prize of salvation. We endure those hardships out of love of God

What is your experience in your assembly? Do others accept criticism? Or do they cry out and say, you don’t make me feel good, you are judging me? Is there a problem with gossip?
Do they want to be recognized for their holiness, or can they accept that they need more and are willing to be humiliated to get it?
My experience was when people hear that they are supposed to feel good about themselves, they won’t endure preaching that does not tickle their ears. Have you felt that ?

About your comment on psychology here's what Jesus said.

John 16: 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Here is a very similar comment.

It is peace that you need—Heaven's forgiveness and peace and love in the soul. Money cannot buy it, intellect cannot procure it, wisdom cannot attain to it; you can never hope, by your own efforts, to secure it. But God offers it to you as a gift, “without money and without price.” Isaiah 55:1. It is yours if you will but reach out your hand and grasp it. The Lord says, “Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” Isaiah 1:18. “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you.” Ezekiel 36:26. Steps to Christ p. 49 paragraph 2

As to people looking to become offended, I'm sure there are a few as those kinds of people are everywhere these days. To me it's another sign of the end.

As to pop psychology Ellen White would condemn it as she had nothing good to say about those who told others people were mean if they gave constructive criticism

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Yes we can have an untroubled heart or peace amongst persecution without feeling good about ourselves that is our flesh

The new heart defies human nature and says yes to God.
If any man come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me.

Our natural instincts don’t want to do that, so we build up psychological excuses and get our minds distracted. Faith, instead of a realization of our abject poverty and need for repentance becomes mere intellectual assent , yep I believe Jesus died for me so He loves me jist the way that I am, I don’t have to strive to change. I come to church every week, sing the songs slap my hands, pay the tithe, go to potluck. What else is there?

Do you encourage those to examine their consciences? Repent?

SDA teaching seems to say that we should ignore sin and be more forgiving and gives alternative reasons for acting a certain way, modern technology, stewardship and difficult decisions.
Forgiveness is good and offered to anyone that repents, but when does it become presumption or licentiousness ?

 

[Gary K]

Yes we can have an untroubled heart or peace amongst persecution without feeling good about ourselves that is our flesh

The new heart defies human nature and says yes to God.
If any man come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me.

Our natural instincts don’t want to do that, so we build up psychological excuses and get our minds distracted. Faith, instead of a realization of our abject poverty and need for repentance becomes mere intellectual assent , yep I believe Jesus died for me so He loves me jist the way that I am, I don’t have to strive to change. I come to church every week, sing the songs slap my hands, pay the tithe, go to potluck. What else is there?

Do you encourage those to examine their consciences? Repent?

SDA teaching seems to say that we should ignore sin and be more forgiving and gives alternative reasons for acting a certain way, modern technology, stewardship and difficult decisions.
Forgiveness is good and offered to anyone that repents, but when does it become presumption or licentiousness ?

Nope. Not even close. There are definitely people in the church like that and in positions of leadership too. But that's no different than any other denomination. The difference is that we don't teach sin is OK. We don't teach a forgiveness separate from repentance and reformation of the life.

I'll give you another quote or two from Ellen White to demonstrate this.

I now charge you before God to make thorough work of repentance and reformation. You have but little time left in which to show the fruits of reformation. You may now so humble yourself before God that you may be trusted to represent the sacred character of His work. But your peculiarity of disposition is such that if you are in office, you will always be in danger of ruling arbitrarily. God forbids that one man shall have arbitrary jurisdiction over the minds of his brethren. Letter 380 1907 paragraph 3

But I will address these lines to those who have had light, those who have had privileges, those who have had warnings and entreaties, who have made no determined effort to yield themselves in full surrender to God. I would warn you to fear lest you sin against the Holy Ghost, and be left to your own course, sunk in moral lethargy, and never obtain forgiveness. Why allow yourselves to be longer educated in the school of Satan, and pursue a course of action that will make repentance and reformation impossible? Why resist the overtures of mercy? Why say, “Let me alone,” until God shall be compelled to give you your desire, since you will have it so? Those who resist the Spirit of God think that they will repent at some future day, when they get ready to take a decided step toward reformation; but repentance will then be beyond their power. According to the light and privileges given will be the darkness of those who refuse to walk in the light while they have the light. Review and Herald June 29, 1851 paragraph 8

I think this is enough to demonstrate the point as these are very stern warnings.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

That is what Ellen White said, and it makes sense from scripture, but are even her words heeded?
You can correct me if I am wrong, but Ellen White was very stern when it came to warnings on sexuality, but it does not seem to carry over to modern SDA teaching. I mean even the gentiles see that contraception necessitates abortion; see planned parenthood vs Casey, yet the SDA allows and even justifies contraception, and ignores 1900 years of Christian teaching. They ignore the fact that by allowing contraception, they will make abortion a permanent part of society. They buy into the lie of overpopulation and seem to think that it is responsible behavior. Do you agree with what they have done?


From SDA statement of consensus


Scientific technologies today permit greater control of human fertility and reproduction than was formerly possible. These technologies make possible sexual intercourse with the expectation of pregnancy and childbirth greatly reduced. Christian married couples have a potential for fertility control that has created many questions with wide-ranging religious, medical, social, and political implications. Opportunities and benefits exist as a result of the new capabilities, as do challenges and drawbacks. A number of moral issues must be considered. Christians who ultimately must make their own personal choices on these issues must be informed in order to make sound decisions based on biblical principles.
Among the issues to be considered is the question of the appropriateness of human intervention in the natural biological processes of human reproduction. If any intervention is appropriate, then additional questions regarding what, when, and how must be addressed. Other related concerns include:

• likelihood of increased sexual immorality which the availability and use of birth control methods may promote;
• gender dominance issues related to the sexual privileges and prerogatives of both women and men;
• social issues, including the right of a society to encroach upon personal freedom in the interest of the society at large and the burden of economic and educational support for the disadvantaged; and
• stewardship issues related to population growth and the use of natural resources.

A statement of moral considerations regarding birth control must be set in the broader context of biblical teachings about sexuality, marriage, parenthood, and the value of children-and an understanding of the interconnectedness between these issues. With an awareness of the diversity of opinion within the Church, the following biblically based principles are set forth to educate and to guide in decision making.

1. Responsible stewardship. God created human beings in His own image, male and female, with capacities to think and to make decisions (Isa 1:18; Josh 24:15; Deut 30:15-20). God gave human beings dominion over the earth (Gen 1:26, 28). This dominion requires overseeing and caring for nature. Christian stewardship also requires taking responsibility for human procreation. Sexuality, as one of the aspects of human nature over which the individual has stewardship, is to be expressed in harmony with God’s will (Exod 20:14; Gen 39:9; Lev 20:10-21; 1 Cor 6:12-20).
2. Procreative purpose. The perpetuation of the human family is one of God’s purposes for human sexuality (Gen 1:28). Though it may be inferred that marriages are generally intended to yield offspring, Scripture never presents procreation as an obligation of every couple in order to please God. However, divine revelation places a high value on children and expresses the joy to be found in parenting (Matt 19:14; Ps 127:3). Bearing and rearing children help parents to understand God and to develop compassion, caring, humility, and unselfishness (Ps 103:13; Luke 11:13)
3. Unifying purpose. Sexuality serves a unifying purpose in marriage that is God-ordained and distinguishable from the procreative purpose (Gen 2:24). Sexuality in marriage is intended to include joy, pleasure, and delight (Eccl 9:9; Prov 5:18, 19; Song of Sol 4:16-5:1). God intends that couples may have ongoing sexual communion apart from procreation (1 Cor 7:3-5), a communion that forges strong bonds and protects a marriage partner from an inappropriate relationship with someone other than his or her spouse (Prov 5:15-20; Song of Sol 8:6, 7). In God’s design, sexual intimacy is not only for the purpose of conception. Scripture does not prohibit married couples from enjoying the delights of conjugal relations while taking measures to prevent pregnancy.
4. Freedom to choose. In creation-and again through the redemption of Christ-God has given human beings freedom of choice, and He asks them to use their freedom responsibly (Gal 5:1, 13). In the divine plan, husband and wife constitute a distinct family unit, having both the freedom and the responsibility to share in making determinations about their family (Gen 2:24). Married partners should be considerate of each other in making decisions about birth control, being willing to consider the needs of the other as well as one’s own (Phil 2:4). For those who choose to bear children, the procreative choice is not without limits. Several factors must inform their choice, including the ability to provide for the needs of children (1 Tim 5:8); the physical, emotional, and spiritual health of the mother and other care givers (3 John 2; 1 Cor 6:19; Phil 2:4; Eph 5:25); the social and political circumstances into which children will be born (Matt 24:19); and the quality of life and the global resources available. We are stewards of God’s creation and therefore must look beyond our own happiness and desires to consider the needs of others (Phil 2:4).
5. Appropriate methods of birth control. Moral decision making about the choice and use of the various birth control agents must stem from an understanding of their probable effects on physical and emotional health, the manner in which the various agents operate, and the financial expenditure involved. A variety of methods of birth control-including barrier methods, spermicides, and sterilization-prevent conception and are morally acceptable. Some other birth-control methods* may prevent the release of the egg (ovulation), may prevent the union of egg and sperm (fertilization), or may prevent attachment of the already fertilized egg (implantation). Because of uncertainty about how they will function in any given instance, they may be morally suspect for people who believe that protectable human life begins at fertilization. However, since the majority of fertilized ova naturally fail to implant or are lost after implantation, even when birth control methods are not being used, hormonal methods of birth control and IUDs, which represent a similar process, may be viewed as morally acceptable. Abortion, the intentional termination of an established pregnancy, is not morally acceptable for purposes of birth control.
6. Misuse of birth control. Though the increased ability to manage fertility and protect against sexually transmitted disease may be useful to many married couples, birth control can be misused. For example, those who would engage in premarital and extramarital sexual relations may more readily indulge in such behaviors because of the availability of birth control methods. The use of such methods to protect sex outside of marriage may reduce the risks of sexually transmitted diseases and/or pregnancy. Sex outside of marriage, however, is both harmful and immoral, whether or not these risks have been diminished.
7. A redemptive approach. The availability of birth-control methods makes education about sexuality and morality even more imperative. Less effort should be put forth in condemnation and more in education and redemptive approaches that seek to allow each individual to be persuaded by the deep movings of the Holy Spirit.
8. Some current examples of these methods include intrauterine devices (IUDs), hormone pills (including the “morning-after pill”), injections, or implants. Questions about these methods should be referred to a medical professional.

 

[Gary K]

That is what Ellen White said, and it makes sense from scripture, but are even her words heeded?
You can correct me if I am wrong, but Ellen White was very stern when it came to warnings on sexuality, but it does not seem to carry over to modern SDA teaching. I mean even the gentiles see that contraception necessitates abortion; see planned parenthood vs Casey, yet the SDA allows and even justifies contraception, and ignores 1900 years of Christian teaching. They ignore the fact that by allowing contraception, they will make abortion a permanent part of society. They buy into the lie of overpopulation and seem to think that it is responsible behavior. Do you agree with what they have done?


From SDA statement of consensus


Scientific technologies today permit greater control of human fertility and reproduction than was formerly possible. These technologies make possible sexual intercourse with the expectation of pregnancy and childbirth greatly reduced. Christian married couples have a potential for fertility control that has created many questions with wide-ranging religious, medical, social, and political implications. Opportunities and benefits exist as a result of the new capabilities, as do challenges and drawbacks. A number of moral issues must be considered. Christians who ultimately must make their own personal choices on these issues must be informed in order to make sound decisions based on biblical principles.
Among the issues to be considered is the question of the appropriateness of human intervention in the natural biological processes of human reproduction. If any intervention is appropriate, then additional questions regarding what, when, and how must be addressed. Other related concerns include:

• likelihood of increased sexual immorality which the availability and use of birth control methods may promote;
• gender dominance issues related to the sexual privileges and prerogatives of both women and men;
• social issues, including the right of a society to encroach upon personal freedom in the interest of the society at large and the burden of economic and educational support for the disadvantaged; and
• stewardship issues related to population growth and the use of natural resources.

A statement of moral considerations regarding birth control must be set in the broader context of biblical teachings about sexuality, marriage, parenthood, and the value of children-and an understanding of the interconnectedness between these issues. With an awareness of the diversity of opinion within the Church, the following biblically based principles are set forth to educate and to guide in decision making.

1. Responsible stewardship. God created human beings in His own image, male and female, with capacities to think and to make decisions (Isa 1:18; Josh 24:15; Deut 30:15-20). God gave human beings dominion over the earth (Gen 1:26, 28). This dominion requires overseeing and caring for nature. Christian stewardship also requires taking responsibility for human procreation. Sexuality, as one of the aspects of human nature over which the individual has stewardship, is to be expressed in harmony with God’s will (Exod 20:14; Gen 39:9; Lev 20:10-21; 1 Cor 6:12-20).
2. Procreative purpose. The perpetuation of the human family is one of God’s purposes for human sexuality (Gen 1:28). Though it may be inferred that marriages are generally intended to yield offspring, Scripture never presents procreation as an obligation of every couple in order to please God. However, divine revelation places a high value on children and expresses the joy to be found in parenting (Matt 19:14; Ps 127:3). Bearing and rearing children help parents to understand God and to develop compassion, caring, humility, and unselfishness (Ps 103:13; Luke 11:13)
3. Unifying purpose. Sexuality serves a unifying purpose in marriage that is God-ordained and distinguishable from the procreative purpose (Gen 2:24). Sexuality in marriage is intended to include joy, pleasure, and delight (Eccl 9:9; Prov 5:18, 19; Song of Sol 4:16-5:1). God intends that couples may have ongoing sexual communion apart from procreation (1 Cor 7:3-5), a communion that forges strong bonds and protects a marriage partner from an inappropriate relationship with someone other than his or her spouse (Prov 5:15-20; Song of Sol 8:6, 7). In God’s design, sexual intimacy is not only for the purpose of conception. Scripture does not prohibit married couples from enjoying the delights of conjugal relations while taking measures to prevent pregnancy.
4. Freedom to choose. In creation-and again through the redemption of Christ-God has given human beings freedom of choice, and He asks them to use their freedom responsibly (Gal 5:1, 13). In the divine plan, husband and wife constitute a distinct family unit, having both the freedom and the responsibility to share in making determinations about their family (Gen 2:24). Married partners should be considerate of each other in making decisions about birth control, being willing to consider the needs of the other as well as one’s own (Phil 2:4). For those who choose to bear children, the procreative choice is not without limits. Several factors must inform their choice, including the ability to provide for the needs of children (1 Tim 5:8); the physical, emotional, and spiritual health of the mother and other care givers (3 John 2; 1 Cor 6:19; Phil 2:4; Eph 5:25); the social and political circumstances into which children will be born (Matt 24:19); and the quality of life and the global resources available. We are stewards of God’s creation and therefore must look beyond our own happiness and desires to consider the needs of others (Phil 2:4).
5. Appropriate methods of birth control. Moral decision making about the choice and use of the various birth control agents must stem from an understanding of their probable effects on physical and emotional health, the manner in which the various agents operate, and the financial expenditure involved. A variety of methods of birth control-including barrier methods, spermicides, and sterilization-prevent conception and are morally acceptable. Some other birth-control methods* may prevent the release of the egg (ovulation), may prevent the union of egg and sperm (fertilization), or may prevent attachment of the already fertilized egg (implantation). Because of uncertainty about how they will function in any given instance, they may be morally suspect for people who believe that protectable human life begins at fertilization. However, since the majority of fertilized ova naturally fail to implant or are lost after implantation, even when birth control methods are not being used, hormonal methods of birth control and IUDs, which represent a similar process, may be viewed as morally acceptable. Abortion, the intentional termination of an established pregnancy, is not morally acceptable for purposes of birth control.
6. Misuse of birth control. Though the increased ability to manage fertility and protect against sexually transmitted disease may be useful to many married couples, birth control can be misused. For example, those who would engage in premarital and extramarital sexual relations may more readily indulge in such behaviors because of the availability of birth control methods. The use of such methods to protect sex outside of marriage may reduce the risks of sexually transmitted diseases and/or pregnancy. Sex outside of marriage, however, is both harmful and immoral, whether or not these risks have been diminished.
7. A redemptive approach. The availability of birth-control methods makes education about sexuality and morality even more imperative. Less effort should be put forth in condemnation and more in education and redemptive approaches that seek to allow each individual to be persuaded by the deep movings of the Holy Spirit.
8. Some current examples of these methods include intrauterine devices (IUDs), hormone pills (including the “morning-after pill”), injections, or implants. Questions about these methods should be referred to a medical professional.

I mostly agree with the Adventist statement. I think it's almost a crime to bring a child into this world today with all the perversion, transgenderism, corruption, and political and financial instability in the world today. The US is already bankrupt and our monetary system is very close to total collapse. And Biden's open border policy is only speeding things up. There are millions of people coming across the border every month with no vetting whatsoever. They give the illegals $2200/month, drivers licenses, and require no vaccination while people who have emigrated here legally in the last few years and want to finish getting their citizenship papers are required to be vaccinated before they can get their citizenship papers. How do I know this> My next door neighbor's brother is married to a very pretty Mexican woman and she was wanting to finish up her citizenship. They flew up here, to Washington state, finish it up from California. Once they got here they told her she had to get vaccinated or no citizenship. On top of that she had initially filed her papers in California. It's just the government messing with people who do things the right way.

Our world is very close to being destroyed by God raining.down fire upon it like He did to Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

[The Liturgist]

I mostly agree with the Adventist statement. I think it's almost a crime to bring a child into this world today with all the perversion, transgenderism, corruption, and political and financial instability in the world today. The US is already bankrupt and our monetary system is very close to total collapse. And Biden's open border policy is only speeding things up. There are millions of people coming across the border every month with no vetting whatsoever. They give the illegals $2200/month, drivers licenses, and require no vaccination while people who have emigrated here legally in the last few years and want to finish getting their citizenship papers are required to be vaccinated before they can get their citizenship papers. How do I know this> My next door neighbor's brother is married to a very pretty Mexican woman and she was wanting to finish up her citizenship. They flew up here, to Washington state, finish it up from California. Once they got here they told her she had to get vaccinated or no citizenship. On top of that she had initially filed her papers in California. It's just the government messing with people who do things the right way.

Our world is very close to being destroyed by God raining.down fire upon it like He did to Sodom and Gomorrah.

I completely disagree with it, because those Christian churches who are flourishing are those with lots of children, like the Coptic Orthodox Church, and I am opposed to birth control as I regard sex as something to be used chiefly for procreation. Two men I greatly admire, along with their wives, are Fr. Josiah Trenham, who has ten children, and among laity, the British MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, who has six, with his sixth child, a boy, appropriately named Sixtus after the martyred Roman bishop St. Sixtus, who is also highly venerated among Syriac Christians.

I also agree with @boughtwithaprice concerning overpopulation being effectively a non-issue, and about how contraception can lead to adultery.

Lastly on the issue of Sodom and Gomorrah, while the truly righteous are exceedingly rare, as Christians, we must remember that Christ our True God promised us that where two or three are gathered together in His name, that He would be there in the midst of them, and through our prayers, I firmly believe we can avert catastrophe. Indeed I believe it was through the prayers of Christians that nuclear war did not erupt between the US and the Soviet Union during the previous cold war. Rather, the time to worry will be when there are no more Christians, but we are very far from such an apostasy despite the decline of Christianity in some Western countries (largely due to the decline in the liberal mainline churches).

 

[Gary K]

I completely disagree with it, because those Christian churches who are flourishing are those with lots of children, like the Coptic Orthodox Church, and I am opposed to birth control as I regard sex as something to be used chiefly for procreation. Two men I greatly admire, along with their wives, are Fr. Josiah Trenham, who has ten children, and among laity, the British MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, who has six, with his sixth child, a boy, appropriately named Sixtus after the martyred Roman bishop St. Sixtus, who is also highly venerated among Syriac Christians.

I also agree with @boughtwithaprice concerning overpopulation being effectively a non-issue, and about how contraception can lead to adultery.

Lastly on the issue of Sodom and Gomorrah, while the truly righteous are exceedingly rare, as Christians, we must remember that Christ our True God promised us that where two or three are gathered together in His name, that He would be there in the midst of them, and through our prayers, I firmly believe we can avert catastrophe. Indeed I believe it was through the prayers of Christians that nuclear war did not erupt between the US and the Soviet Union during the previous cold war. Rather, the time to worry will be when there are no more Christians, but we are very far from such an apostasy despite the decline of Christianity in some Western countries (largely due to the decline in the liberal mainline churches).

That's our difference of opinion. The two men you speak of can afford to raise their kids. What about a day laborer who makes far less money? Should he bring kids he can't afford to feed into this world? Say he has enough income to raise two kids. Should he bring ten into the world and depend on others to feed them? I don't see that as being anywhere close to ethical.

BTW, I don't buy into the over population myth. Or lots of other political myths. I'm a political conservative which means I'm far to the right of what people in Europe consider to be right wing.

The evils of the welfare system are numerous. What has happened here in the US demonstrates this clearly. Before Johnson's Great Society blacks in this country had a far lower percentage of single parent homes. Now the number of single parent homes in the black community far exceeds the number in white population. There are other factors in this too, such as the quality of education in black communities in historically Democrat run cities. Many of them have less than a 25% graduation rate and even then they are functionally illiterate and have math skills that are maybe at the third or fourth grade level. All the jobs in the US that could have supported a family that don't require a good education have been exported out of the US. It's the deliberate dumbing down and the deindustrialisation of the US by our politicians. I see it happening there too. I saw a video some time back that showed the Soho district of London at night with garbage bags piled in the street and the gross immorality taking place just like in our big cities.

This is what happens with publicly funded education as the teachers unions take control of the educational system. There are teachers in the big cities in the US who are paid to sit around all day, and have been for years because of their level of incompetence.

These problems stem from we the people as we are the ones who reelect the same politicians again and again so that the corruption runs so deep it is impossible to clean up. In the US there are people who make a living blackmailing politicians whom they have trapped with sexual photographs that are faked. As they will slip the newly elected politicians a mickey and then after they pass out photograph them in compromising pictures. The depth of evil is just beyond belief. Pedophilia is rampant among politicians, the wealthy, and media members. How do I know? There was a independently produced true movie on chasing down children used by pedophile rings and media crucified it. They cut that movie to shreds without even seeing it.

My wife and I watched it, First movie we have gone to a theater to see since we ertr married more than 40 years ago. There were people crying in that movie as it was powerful beyond words. No nudity or sexual scenes, just the story of a government under cover agent who tossed away his career and retirement to chase pedophiles and break up their rings.

They actor who played the agent was Jim Cavaziel and I watched a clip of him being interviewed. He said it took them years to get the movie released because of all the road blocks thrown in their way by the media, Hollywood and politicians.

We don't own a tv either as it is a source of hypnotism. Someone who watches tv regularly is put into an alpha brain wave state within a few seconds and that causes the mind to accept the messages tv sends out uncritically. It sends them straight to the subconcious mind where they change our morality without us even knowing it.

The devil's tools for deception are everywhere and much more powerful now than ever before because he employs ubiquitous technology against us.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I mostly agree with the Adventist statement. I think it's almost a crime to bring a child into this world today with all the perversion, transgenderism, corruption, and political and financial instability in the world today. The US is already bankrupt and our monetary system is very close to total collapse. And Biden's open border policy is only speeding things up. There are millions of people coming across the border every month with no vetting whatsoever. They give the illegals $2200/month, drivers licenses, and require no vaccination while people who have emigrated here legally in the last few years and want to finish getting their citizenship papers are required to be vaccinated before they can get their citizenship papers. How do I know this> My next door neighbor's brother is married to a very pretty Mexican woman and she was wanting to finish up her citizenship. They flew up here, to Washington state, finish it up from California. Once they got here they told her she had to get vaccinated or no citizenship. On top of that she had initially filed her papers in California. It's just the government messing with people who do things the right way.

Our world is very close to being destroyed by God raining.down fire upon it like He did to Sodom and Gomorrah.

I would like to know what parts you disagree with, as you say you mostly agree with the SDA statement.

The thing that I was most disappointed in is that the SDA fail to recognize that contraception and the contraceptive mentality is the cause of abortion. They seem to think that if we had better technology we could eliminate abortion.

That is the same argument used by planned parenthood, the nations largest abortion provider
Also pro abortion spokes people that argue against pro life say that is we were really pro life then we have to provide better birth control

That is so wrong, and a self serving argument. Contraception caused the death of millions of children, and to stop it we need more contraception?

You correctly state that you believe that God is about to pour out His wrath on the ungodly. Yes abortion and homosexuality are sins that cry out to heaven, but do we add fuel to the fire by promoting the cause of that ungodliness?

Or would we rather imitate Jonah and announce God’s coming wrath?

We have almost 100 years of time to see the fruits of contraception. It was in 1930 when the anglicans first said that contraception could be morally licit, and we have seen Romans chapter 1 play out before our eyes. We have left the natural use of the woman, child rearing, and made her an object of pure pleasure to be used as we see fit. Do you disagree that morality has greatly declined since the anglicans made that decision? Do you want to be part of that ?

Would you rather be part of 2corinthians6, go against the prevailing logic of the world, listen to God no matter the consequences and take a stand for truth? Why did the SDA fall for the lies of the world that says sex can be free of the responsibilities of children? Irresponsible sex leads to abortion and the solution is not to promote more irresponsible sex. Don’t you think?

Those are my thoughts, I would like to hear yours

 

[Gary K]

I would like to know what parts you disagree with, as you say you mostly agree with the SDA statement.

The thing that I was most disappointed in is that the SDA fail to recognize that contraception and the contraceptive mentality is the cause of abortion. They seem to think that if we had better technology we could eliminate abortion.

That is the same argument used by planned parenthood, the nations largest abortion provider
Also pro abortion spokes people that argue against pro life say that is we were really pro life then we have to provide better birth control

That is so wrong, and a self serving argument. Contraception caused the death of millions of children, and to stop it we need more contraception?

You correctly state that you believe that God is about to pour out His wrath on the ungodly. Yes abortion and homosexuality are sins that cry out to heaven, but do we add fuel to the fire by promoting the cause of that ungodliness?

Or would we rather imitate Jonah and announce God’s coming wrath?

We have almost 100 years of time to see the fruits of contraception. It was in 1930 when the anglicans first said that contraception could be morally licit, and we have seen Romans chapter 1 play out before our eyes. We have left the natural use of the woman, child rearing, and made her an object of pure pleasure to be used as we see fit. Do you disagree that morality has greatly declined since the anglicans made that decision? Do you want to be part of that ?

Would you rather be part of 2corinthians6, go against the prevailing logic of the world, listen to God no matter the consequences and take a stand for truth? Why did the SDA fall for the lies of the world that says sex can be free of the responsibilities of children? Irresponsible sex leads to abortion and the solution is not to promote more irresponsible sex. Don’t you think?

Those are my thoughts, I would like to hear yours

After rereading the statement I have to say I fully agree with it. You'll find those principles throughout my reply to Liturgist.

I disagree as to the cause of abortion. The cause of abortion is evil. It's the murder of the innocent. It is the blatant breaking of the 10 commandments.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

After rereading the statement I have to say I fully agree with it. You'll find those principles throughout my reply to Liturgist.

I disagree as to the cause of abortion. The cause of abortion is evil. It's the murder of the innocent. It is the blatant breaking of the 10 commandments.

You do know that before contraception, abortion was not part of polite society. You just did not do that. Contraception was around, but was thought of as for prostitutes and degenerates.

After the pill and the sexual revolution we have over a million babies per year slaughtered. Yes that has gone on for centuries if not millennia but it had its proper place in the fires of Moloch where the drums were played loud to drown out the screams. Now the priests wear surgical scrubs and we are told to think of it as reproductive freedom and women’s healthcare
I see people all the time that claim to be Christians go to doctors to get contraception or even abortions because they think it is just healthcare. You would not see as many going, if they had to take their unwanted babies to the temple of Moloch to toss in the fire, but that is what is going on. Abortions are in medical trash and incinerated.
You may turn a blind eye, but if people were not made to think that sexual intercourse can be had for pleasure without responsibility, there would be less abortions as they would be properly taught that sexual intercourse leads to children. You don’t have to want children, but, if you don’t, then don’t have sex.

One of my favorite lines from an eighties sitcom was when a grandfather was telling his granddaughter not to go on the pill. She said, “I don’t want to contribute to the population explosion!” The grandfather said, then you shouldn’t be playing with dynamite!
Think about it. It does not appear that the SDA has.