A Creationist Speaks on the Nature of Science

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Xaero

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ArcticFox said:
When the Bible is interpreted allegorically, and this line of interpretation is open to any aspect of the Bible, then it ceases to be useful for any purposes other than nice stories that we might learn a lesson from.
Why not take everything literal?

Why not believe that revelations is literal?

Why not believing that blacksmith and the waster were created by god ex nihilo? (Isa 54:10)

I raise this question from time to time, no respond from a YEC so far ...
 
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lucaspa

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http://youtube.com/watch?v=L-HiHNhKuJM

Even if young earth creationism is false, it seems to at least be logically consistent.

First, in science logic doesn't count in evaluating theories. Only data decides whether a theory is accurate or false. And the data showed YEC to be false.

Second, Safarti is drawing a mistaken distinction between science in the present and science in the past. It's a false distinction. Even repeatable experiments are done in the past. The recent past, but the past. And we don't observe what has taken place; we observe the results of the process.

Think of any simple chemistry experiment. Take burning hydrogen and oxygen to get water. We don't observe the molecules of oxygen and hydrogen combining to form water. NO! We look at the end product -- water -- and deduce that the event of molecular binding took place.

What Safarti does is logically inconsistent: he is denying that the present is the way it is because the past was the way it was. IOW, he is accepting cause and effect in "today" but denying it in the past.
 
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lucaspa

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Must a literal interpretation of the Bible require a 6000-year-old universe?

A very young universe, which is why YECs go back no more than 20,000 years. After all, read literally, creation took place in Genesis 1 in six 24 hour days. And humans were on day 6 along with all the mammals, etc. This doesn't allow an old universe with lots of time before humans existed.
 
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lucaspa

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When the Bible is interpreted allegorically, and this line of interpretation is open to any aspect of the Bible, then it ceases to be useful for any purposes other than nice stories that we might learn a lesson from.

I strongly disagree. After all, the allegorical fashion that Genesis 2-3 is written provides a very powerful message: we all disobey God at some point in our lives and thus we are all cut off from God by that act.

If one is unwilling to accept a literal interpretation of the Bible in Genesis 1-3, perhaps one would accept Romans 5?

If a literal interpretation of Genesis 1-3 is used, then why are there 2 creation stories and why do they contradict?

No, Romans 5 is an attempt by Paul to make a theology that would tie Jesus to Adam so that the Gentiles would have a reason to still accept the Torah as scripture.

Jesus died for our sins, sins we commit. Not for Adam's sin. Of course, our sin is the same category as Adam's: we disobey God.

If both are labeled allegorical (contrary to the nature of the writings and the way the authors wrote), there is no hope for useful discussion; further discussion will only press more Scripture into the "allegorical" category and damage the ability of others to learn from it.

Actually, only Genesis 2-3 is a true allegory. There are several ways to write non-literally besides allegory. For allegory you need archetypes and Genesis 2-3 has that. Romans does not.

I thank God for his sovereign promise that his Word would not return to him empty; were it not for his sovereign power, the Word would indeed be rendered useless and void at every turn by this world and its crooked ways.

What are you referring to when you say "Word"?
 
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A very young universe, which is why YECs go back no more than 20,000 years. After all, read literally, creation took place in Genesis 1 in six 24 hour days. And humans were on day 6 along with all the mammals, etc. This doesn't allow an old universe with lots of time before humans existed.

How could there be 24-hour days before the creation of the sun?
 
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stumpjumper

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lucaspa said:
A very young universe, which is why YECs go back no more than 20,000 years. After all, read literally, creation took place in Genesis 1 in six 24 hour days. And humans were on day 6 along with all the mammals, etc. This doesn't allow an old universe with lots of time before humans existed.

How could there be 24-hour days before the creation of the sun?

Indeed.

So how could there have been six literal days of creation again?

Also, Genesis 2 gives a different sequence of events and depicts humans as being created before animals and stuff...

So which literal sequence do we follow?
 
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stumpjumper

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Given the various meanings of the Hebrew "yom," the most literal interpretation of Genesis does not seem to be young earth creationism.

I actually believe that in the context of Genesis 1 "yom" is best translated as one 24-hour day.

Of course, the context is a mythical creation story meant to emphasize the sabbath and relay theological or ontological truths and that the subject was not science or history...
 
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lucaspa

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How could there be 24-hour days before the creation of the sun?

Now you are confusing what happens outside the Bible with the intent of the authors of Genesis 1.

The authors' intent is very clear: they want the days to be 24 hours. Why? Because they are constructing a justification for the observance of the Sabbath. Remember, Exodus happened long before Genesis 1 was written.

So, what we see is the phrase "evening and morning" on the first 3 days of creation in Genesis 1. Why? Because they want a 24 hour day so they are putting in a standard "evening and morning" as tho the sun is there.

In Genesis 2:1-3 we see the modification of the word "yom" to "beyom" for "day". Why? Because "yom" can be indistinct whereas "beyom" is limited to a 24 hour day. With God resting on the seventh day, beyom is used to be sure that rest didn't extend to an indefinite period.

In Exodus 20:11 (and another place), you find the justification inserted into the story of the Commandments. None of the other Commandments have a justification. God commands them, and that is enough. But the sabbath gets a justification -- Hebrews rest on the 7th day because God labored for 6 days at creation and rested on the 7th.

Does this mean that we should read Genesis 1 literally? NO! Genesis 1 is there to tell theological truths, not historical ones. It is there to affirm that there is only one god -- Yahweh -- and refute the Babylonian gods by making the things associated with them be things created by Yahweh.

Genesis 1 sets its theological truths in the best "science" known at the time. That science is wrong. But the theological truths work just as well in modern science as they did in Babylonian science.
 
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lucaspa

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Also, Genesis 2 gives a different sequence of events and depicts humans as being created before animals and stuff...

So which literal sequence do we follow?

:thumbsup: Keep hammering on this point! We've got 2 creation stories ( and a third in Genesis 5) and they contradict when read literally. That's a neon sign NOT to read them literally. :)
 
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In Genesis 2:1-3 we see the modification of the word "yom" to "beyom" for "day". Why? Because "yom" can be indistinct whereas "beyom" is limited to a 24 hour day. With God resting on the seventh day, beyom is used to be sure that rest didn't extend to an indefinite period.
Gen 2:4
These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day [beyom]that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens. Here we have the entire creation described as a single yom.

Another problem with the six literal days interpretation is the avoidance of standard numbering system for counting consecutive days. Instead of 'the first day... the second day... the third day' we have 'one day... a second day... a third day'. This is much more vague. Add to that we have other days cropping up beside the six numbered days. There is a day and night mentioned before 'day one' in verse 5, and the 'days seasons and years' being marked out in verse 14. Even if we take the numbered days literally we don't have a six day creation in Genesis 1.
 
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ArcticFox

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I've always found it strange how YECs think stories are worthless. How do you know that our Bible passages aren't precisely that: nice stories that we might learn a lesson from?

The Bible is full of such stories; the difference here is that these stories are true, not invented myths or legends.

Our hope is based on God's work throughout history, that he is not only real, and a rewarder of those who do good, but that he intervenes in history to work out his ultimate plan of salvation for mankind, to his everlasting glory. If these are all stories, there is no assurance that God works in history, and the foundation of our faith (that it is real, and it is God working through people) is thus undermined if not completely lost.

This is the key difference: that if the Old Testament narratives are reduced to mere fictional stories, it means that God did not sovereignly and lovingly act in the lives of real individuals. There is therefore no realistic hope that God will do for you what he never did for others, because it's just fiction. If he didn't really save the Israelites by intervening in history, what makes you think he'll really do it this time for you?

But, our hope in God is not so wishy-washy; we have a true hope in a real God who really acts in the lives of real people. We have hope because God has condescended, not in some fictional story that contains truth, but in a factual history that contains more than just truth, but hope. God is not like all of the other gods, claiming to be something through fiction and myth, but he declares his power through his real actions, through real people, in the history of this world that he created.

If nice stories couldn't do these things all the time, why would Jesus pepper the Gospels chock-full of nice (and not so nice) stories? Suppose you had a Christian who thinks that the Parable of the Prodigal Son was just a nice story to learn a lesson from, and you had another Christian who thinks that the Parable of the Prodigal Son literally and historically happened. Would you say that the second Christian has gained more from it than the first Christian? Certainly not! A metaphorical interpretation of the Parable of the Prodigal Son loses no clout to a historical-literal interpretation of it (and the parable itself is never explicitly labeled a parable, being reported in straight narrative).
Perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying. Did you interpret my comment as sarcastic? Did you not take me literally when I said, "nice stories?" Well, please take my words at their face value. They are nice stories that teach us lessons, but ultimately they are useless because they offer no more assurance than the nice stories that Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Shintoism can offer us. If they are merely stories, why not believe the stories of other religions? We have confidence in God because he does more than the other "gods" do; he isn't based in myths, nor do his followers offer us myths and legends with no truth. Instead, we are offered history as it really happened, the truth of God's work throughout the lives of his people and the rest of mankind.

Your literal-historical interpretation of Genesis 1 does not tell us one word about Christianity proper - it makes interesting claims about the earth, the universe, life, and man, but not a peep about God that has not already been assumed. So we don't have anything to lose in rejecting it. The Bible has never been crippled by reading it as a good story, for a good story will edify a man more than a thousand scientific beliefs.
Actually, I didn't present any interpretation of Genesis whatsoever. You are now merely assuming that I am like others that you have met and spoken to, and thus conversation is useless if you refuse to acknowledge that I am not "just another one of them." This is the most frequent problem I encounter when discussing the whole realm of Evolution and the Bible, is that I am immediately labeled and tossed into a pile with every other person who dares to challenge one aspect of the TE position. It is impolite and improper, for only a fool answers a case before he hears it (Proverbs 18:13 If one gives an answer before he hears,
it is his folly and shame.)

The issue with such an allegorical interpretation is that there is no evidence contained in the writings to suggest allegory; even poetic language does not qualify language as allegory (the Psalms are not fake situations, but the real situations David and the other Psalmists encountered). If we choose to interpret allegorically whatever we like, we can render meaningless numerous sections of Scripture.

Why interpret the gospels literally? Surely you see all of these parables, so why not argue that the gospels themselves are big parables? Why argue that Jesus really ever existed, or that he died on the cross? Perhaps, as the "liberal Christians" say, it is just a big parable to teach us about love. By whitewashing the historicity of the Scriptures, we can begin to formulate interpretations that in effect eliminate the significance of passages.

What is lost in an allegorical interpretation of Scripture is the meaning that God intended for it to have. God says nothing about 6000 years, or 10,000 years, and so I make no claims as to how old the earth ultimately is. However, God says that he created the world and all that is within it in six days, and rested on the seventh. If it didn't happen that way, why tell us that it did? Teach a truth by presenting a false version of history? I doubt anyone really equates this kind of use of allegory with the parables that Jesus uses; Jesus makes clear what he is doing and why, even telling his disciples the meanings of his parables. We have no such interpretation given to us for Genesis, merely a narrative that begs to be read literally.

If we don't interpret Genesis 1 literally, it's now unreasonable to interpret Genesis 2 or 3 as literal. Thus, we do not need to see the origin of sin as being with a woman who grabbed a piece of fruit. Thus, 1 Timothy 2:14 seems quite a strange argument, considering that the woman never existed, and thus it is a lie.

There's a big difference between the following two narratives; which one, if any, seem inappropriate? Neither of these things really happened:

Scenario 1: "Hey, let me tell you a story. Say there's this guy, and he comes over to me and pulls a gun on me and demands my money. Say I give him all my money, and tells me that if I don't take him to my house, he'll kill me. Should I take him to the house, even though my family is there?"

Scenario 2: "Yesterday, I ran into this strange guy on the street. He started asking me lots of weird questions, and then pulled a gun on me and demanded all my money. I gave it to him, but then he said I had to show him where I lived, so I took him to the house."

Would you simply say in Scenario 2, "well my friend (my dear), I'm sure you're speaking allegorically here, because that doesn't seem like a realistic thing based on the evidence. You must have some significant meaning for me here."

Of course not. You would immediately attempt to confirm that this narrative is indeed true. "Are you serious? What happened? Are you okay?" When you are told it is not true, your reaction would depend on the relationship, but if this were an otherwise serious person who had never pulled such a stunt, you would likely seriously question why he would make such a story up to you.

Why suddenly assume that God's Word should be "spiritualized" so as to lose its historical significance?

And yet evolution has no quarrel with Romans 5 - no TE here denies that all sin in Adam and live in Christ.
Then I have a couple questions. I will not just assume you are like "every other TE I've met," so I'm asking you. That is common courtesy in a debate, you know. Who is Adam? Who was Eve? Were they real people, and when and where did they live (to the best of your knowledge)?

Also, please explain to me your interpretation of Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

If sin entered the world through one man (Adam), how death entered through sin, how did death bring about Adam (Macro Evolution as the origin of man)? How did a process bring about a result that caused that original process?

Please follow my logic here so that you can formulate a good response:

A causes B, which causes C. It is a cause and effect relationship.
However, TE teaches that C causes A. It is a logical fallacy to believe that C causes A but that A is the result of C at the same time (being that it is not an endless loop).

If TE is true, than the Trinity is not the ultimate mystery of logic: the nature of Adam, sin, and death is the ultimate mystery of logic and reason.

Although I have never been a staunch believer in Macro Evolution as the origin of species, I do not ultimately have any scientific reason for rejecting this view of Evolution (though I have many, many, many serious questions and doubts); my reasons are ultimately theological, based on Scripture. For me, there is no question: should Scripture and any human theories or science seem to be at odds, it is my duty to believe in the Scriptures first, and interpret the rest of life through that. When one researcher stated that he believed rape was a natural part of sexuality, and that men were meant to participate in rape in order to advance the species, I rejected it; it may be somewhat natural to us in our fallen nature, but it is indeed not "the way men are supposed to be." I reject it on the grounds that the Scriptures teach us otherwise. Same with Evolution.

There are basically only three essential reasons for rendering Genesis 1-3 as allegorical:

1) You are inherently skeptical of religious texts or claims to truth. You simply, in general, view all religious claims (particularly miraculous ones) as being untrue in the empirical sense.

2) You have some moral or intellectual obstacle that makes a literal interpretation difficult for your lifestyle and/or world-view.

3) Although it can be said to belong to #2, I'll make it separate: you have a scientific belief in Macro Evolution, and allow that to dictate how you interpret the Scriptures.

Let me place them side-by-side for comparison:

ME = Macro Evolution as origin of species, S = Scripture

ME: Death is a natural part of the cycle of life.

S: Death is an unnatural result of sin, and was never the intended plan for mankind (Rev. 21:4, James 1:15)

ME: Death has been around since life

S: Death entered into the world only after Adam, a man, sinned (Romans 5:12)

ME: Death brought Adam into existence.

S: Adam brought death into existence (through sin; Romans 5:12).

ME: The world and biological life continue to develop, following the course of survival of the fittest.

S: The whole world groans in pain because of sin (Romans 8:22)

ME: The world and biological life were created in billions of years.

S: The world and all life in it were created in 6 days (Genesis 1).

ME: Mankind evolved slowly and gradually from the primate family.

S: Man was created instantly from the "dust of the ground" (Genesis 2:7).

ME: Woman evolved simultaneously with man in this gradual process of evolution.

S: Woman was created from man, from his rib (Genesis 2:22).

It's these inconsistencies that cause me to believe that TE, Theistic Evolution, is contrary to Bible-based Christianity. It is theoretically possible to believe that a god exists, and that this god created life through Evolution, but I do not believe it is reasonable or possible to hold the truth of Christianity and Macro Evolution as both true; I believe one negates the other necessarily.

BTW, I have never heard of the Creationist individual who's video has been linked to here. I am sure, however, that Christ would not be content with the level of attack made against this brother in the name of science. When brothers and sisters argue over doctrine, I understand completely; doctrine is essential for our lives. If we get the Bible wrong, we put our souls in serious peril. Although it is not good for them to become enraged at one another, it is understandable in the sense that it is of such enormous and serious importance. However, the anger, attacks, and heated argument over a scientific position is simply mind-boggling to me: is this so important to brothers and sisters that they will attack and malign one another, creating barriers and hurting our unity in Christ? Over what? How to interpret old bones? If a brother insists that his view of doctrine requires a belief that God created the world in six days, we should discuss and debate such a view in one arena: the Word of God, since that is where he is convinced. Apart from that, all other things are subordinate, and indeed lesser.
 
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ArcticFox

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:thumbsup: Keep hammering on this point! We've got 2 creation stories ( and a third in Genesis 5) and they contradict when read literally. That's a neon sign NOT to read them literally. :)

Genesis absolutely does not contain contradictory creation narratives. I am not a YEC, so I would ask anyone and everyone to stop attacking me with such labels. If you are angry, pray; or yell into your pillow, just don't take it out on a brother.

And, before I begin with anything, let me say that Genesis 5 contains no narrative of ANY sense whatsoever; this is the ONLY statement in the entirety of the chapter that even makes a remark about the creation account that has already taken place:

Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. 2 Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man* when they were created.

Jesus himself says the same thing in the gospels, so should we label the gospels as "another Creation account?" Of course not! This is purely insane to start labeling all of these Scriptures as "Creation accounts."

Genesis 1 and 2 have absolutely no contradictions whatsoever, and I am still clueless as to why people continually present them as so.

Genesis chapter 2 says the following, which is the primary thing that people take the wrong way:

Genesis 2:18 Then the LORD God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for* him.” 19 So out of the ground the LORD God formed* every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam* there was not found a helper fit for him.

Is this a creation narrative? It is not in any way. This is the history of the Garden of Eden, in which Adam is brought to it. The statement that God "formed every beast of the field" can easily be rendered "had formed." There are two reasonable interpretations:

1) This is merely a statement that God had formed all of the animals, and now he is bringing these animals he made to Adam; there is no statement that this is the order of any creation, nor that they are being created right then and there for the first time to be brought to Adam.

2) These animals are specifically created in and/or for the Garden of Eden in order to achieve the immediate goal: find a helpmate for Adam.

It's very possible that people completely overlook the fact that creation is finished in its basic form, and now God is tending to the Garden of Eden where he will place his newly created man, Adam.

Look again at this supposed "Creation narrative" in Genesis 2. See how the emphasis is on what God is doing in the Garden of Eden. Re-read this passage of Scripture with an eye to what is going on here based on the context, and it will be easy to understand. If you read this passage with the already held belief that it's another Creation narrative, you will of course find flaws with it; it's not a Creation narrative!

Besides, many have pointed out what are apparent contradictions in the Passion narrative (Christ's sentencing and crucifixion). Should we immediately just accept the criticism and therefore turn the whole Passion narrative into an allegory? Of course not! Instead, we (as a whole) pursued good hermeneutics and rules of interpretation and discovered that these were not contradictions at all; we maintained the integrity of the accurate history of the crucifixion. Should we do no less for the account of Creation?

We live in a very twisted and corrupt world where learned men and women in universities can sit around a table and make an author's "yes" mean "no" and their "no" mean "yes." We do things to people's writings that we would never, ever want done to our own. Those in western society used to sit around tables and use all their knowledge of reason, logic, history, and literature to try to determine the original intent of the author to his original audience, and then we declared that to be the "truth" of a document. Now, we sit around and theorize about how we feel about it, what ideas a document "conjures up" in our heads as we read it, what we think the "deeper" or "secret" meaning could have been. What one person thinks it means and what another thinks it means is irrelevant; what is important is that everyone gets something out of it. This is wrong! This is horrible! This does great violence to the Scriptures!

And, of course, another obvious reason that there is no sufficient grounds for a literal interpretation is what follows these narratives: nothing special. There is no clear start and stop to this supposed "allegory;" that is, the "story" keeps going with Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Seth, right down into Noah, Lot, Abram, Sarai, etc. At exactly what point do we stop this allegorical interpretation? Do we ever stop interpreting allegorically? Genesis is not broken into chapters and verses, as most of you probably already know; documents simply kept going on and on.

I pose the serious question as to the alleged allegory of Genesis. At what point does the allegory cease and real history begin? Does it ever stop? Do we stop the allegory somewhere in Genesis at all, or do we just continue on until the end of the Pentateuch? Do we even stop the allegory for the opening of the NT with the epistles and gospels? These are legitimate challenges.

Another challenge to the allegorical interpretation of Genesis 1-3 is the treatment of these Scriptures as history. Note the arguments used by Jesus in the gospels, as well as Paul in the epistles:

Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’

What does "from the beginning of creation" mean? Billions of years after God created the world, guided Evolution leads to a man? Does that qualify as "from the beginning of creation?" I definitely do not agree. Was even Jesus himself fooled by Genesis 1-3, believing them to be literal when they were really allegory? If Christ treated them as literal, I want to do the same.

See Paul's treatment of Genesis as literal in the following verses:

Romans 5
1 Corinthians 15:22
1 Corinthians 15:45
1 Timothy 2:13-14

Note how Jude treats Adam as a literal, individual human in Jude 14.

Another powerful reason not to believe that Gen 1-3 is allegory is the following:

Luke 3:23 Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi [it goes on for some time...] (38) the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Jesus lineage, the lineage of the only begotten Son of God, is traced back to Adam. Now, I do not subscribe to counting years here necessarily, but only so far as the Scriptures count the years and generations; apart from that, we do not know who may be left out of this genealogy, or who is in fact a grandfather or great-grandfather (which would only be labeled as "the son of").

However, we have Adam being directly the son of God. So now we have a dilemma. TE presents a challenge: who was this first human man Adam? At what exact point does "humankind" begin and any other animal end? Now we have a strange, twisted mix of science and religion trying to determine at what point in this Theistic Evolution a man has developed and thus remains morally responsible to God. Additionally, how is this moral responsibility supposed to play itself out in a world that is already fraught with death, perils, and suffering?


Which leads to my next reason for rejecting TE: death and suffering. I already spoke some of how death cannot be present prior to sin in a previous post, but suffering is central too.

Genesis 3:16a To the woman he said,
“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.

So would a believer in TE suggest that birthing was pain-less during this whole TE process? I would suspect, however, that perhaps even this verse must now become an allegory, and therefore the ravages of sin lose their meaning because they are no longer truly the punishment (the result) of sin, but simply a way of life that has been around from the beginning.

How about Genesis 3:17-19, the curse on the land that will now be a difficult toil? Were these pre-human primates producing vegetation in ease before the sin of the first man?

Again, the whole nature of Creation, sin, death, and suffering is called into question by an allegorical rendering of Genesis 1-3. It creates problems with numerous other passages of Scripture, where the authors (including Christ) seem to be confused as to the fact that Genesis 1-3 didn't really happen (Christ, Paul, Jude, and others seem to think that it really happened).

Additionally, this is a summary point: there is nothing at all beautiful, majestic, or divine about Evolution. It is a dirty process of death, suffering, destruction, and the perversion (mutation) of the essence of biological life (DNA). There is also absolutely no sense in such a creation mechanism, especially not for a God of good; TE would make God into the direct Creator of death and suffering, who seeks the death and suffering of his creation with no sensible reason. That is to say, he is entirely able to do exactly what he said he did in Genesis 1: create the world out of nothing, and do it in a short time frame. He wants his people to work six days and rest on the seventh, and so he does the same himself.

I am in good company when I take Genesis 1-3 as literal; in fact, it's the best company you can be in.
 
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shernren

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Wow, that's a lot of material you've brought up there. I apologize for wrongly considering you a YEC; at the same time, it's apparent that you have as many mistaken first impressions of our beliefs as I have of yours.

In any case. Can I just cut to a few points which are at the heart of your posts, to make this easier for everyone:

Perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying. Did you interpret my comment as sarcastic? Did you not take me literally when I said, "nice stories?" Well, please take my words at their face value. They are nice stories that teach us lessons, but ultimately they are useless because they offer no more assurance than the nice stories that Buddhism, or Hinduism, or Shintoism can offer us. If they are merely stories, why not believe the stories of other religions? We have confidence in God because he does more than the other "gods" do; he isn't based in myths, nor do his followers offer us myths and legends with no truth. Instead, we are offered history as it really happened, the truth of God's work throughout the lives of his people and the rest of mankind.

Now, as I understand your concept, a "just-so" story from any of the world's religions is the same, and I can switch one for another. Once a story has no historicity there is no other standard by which we can judge its truthfulness.

If that is true, by what standard are the parables true, since they have no historicity? And if they offer us "no more assurance than the nice stories that other religions offer us", why are they in the Bible?

There's a big difference between the following two narratives; which one, if any, seem inappropriate? Neither of these things really happened:

Scenario 1: "Hey, let me tell you a story. Say there's this guy, and he comes over to me and pulls a gun on me and demands my money. Say I give him all my money, and tells me that if I don't take him to my house, he'll kill me. Should I take him to the house, even though my family is there?"

Scenario 2: "Yesterday, I ran into this strange guy on the street. He started asking me lots of weird questions, and then pulled a gun on me and demanded all my money. I gave it to him, but then he said I had to show him where I lived, so I took him to the house."

Would you simply say in Scenario 2, "well my friend (my dear), I'm sure you're speaking allegorically here, because that doesn't seem like a realistic thing based on the evidence. You must have some significant meaning for me here."

Of course not. You would immediately attempt to confirm that this narrative is indeed true. "Are you serious? What happened? Are you okay?" When you are told it is not true, your reaction would depend on the relationship, but if this were an otherwise serious person who had never pulled such a stunt, you would likely seriously question why he would make such a story up to you.

Of course we would try to confirm whether or not a narrative is historical. But whoever said they have to be? Narratives that put on the air of historicity are a dime a dozen, and I'm not just talking about April Fool jokes like TiSP or Gmail Paper. People have serious reasons to make narratives sound serious. I've used the exact technique you describe here on these forums. Why, the Bible itself has a case of mistaken literalness:

And the LORD sent Nathan to David. He came to him and said to him, "There were two men in a certain city, the one rich and the other poor. The rich man had very many flocks and herds, but the poor man had nothing but one little ewe lamb, which he had bought. And he brought it up, and it grew up with him and with his children. It used to eat of his morsel and drink from his cup and lie in his arms, and it was like a daughter to him. Now there came a traveler to the rich man, and he was unwilling to take one of his own flock or herd to prepare for the guest who had come to him, but he took the poor man's lamb and prepared it for the man who had come to him." Then David's anger was greatly kindled against the man, and he said to Nathan, "As the LORD lives, the man who has done this deserves to die, and he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity." Nathan said to David, "You are the man!"
(2 Samuel 12:1-7 ESV)

David took it literally and thought there was an actual rich man to get angry about. No doubt his next question would have been which city this had taken place in so that the rich man could have been brought to justice. But if David had been able to take it figuratively, would he not have perceived in a moment that he was the man? A narrative can be at its most powerful when it is most unreal - the story which slips past the "dragons at the door" (as C.S. Lewis put it) and explodes in our minds.

About Adam and Eve, countless threads have discussed this here. My personal feelings about it (as well as a look at Romans 5, though in a slightly different context) are best explained here.

Which leads to my next reason for rejecting TE: death and suffering. I already spoke some of how death cannot be present prior to sin in a previous post, but suffering is central too.

Genesis 3:16a To the woman he said,
“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.

So would a believer in TE suggest that birthing was pain-less during this whole TE process? I would suspect, however, that perhaps even this verse must now become an allegory, and therefore the ravages of sin lose their meaning because they are no longer truly the punishment (the result) of sin, but simply a way of life that has been around from the beginning.

How about Genesis 3:17-19, the curse on the land that will now be a difficult toil? Were these pre-human primates producing vegetation in ease before the sin of the first man?

Again, the whole nature of Creation, sin, death, and suffering is called into question by an allegorical rendering of Genesis 1-3. It creates problems with numerous other passages of Scripture, where the authors (including Christ) seem to be confused as to the fact that Genesis 1-3 didn't really happen (Christ, Paul, Jude, and others seem to think that it really happened).

Additionally, this is a summary point: there is nothing at all beautiful, majestic, or divine about Evolution. It is a dirty process of death, suffering, destruction, and the perversion (mutation) of the essence of biological life (DNA). There is also absolutely no sense in such a creation mechanism, especially not for a God of good; TE would make God into the direct Creator of death and suffering, who seeks the death and suffering of his creation with no sensible reason. That is to say, he is entirely able to do exactly what he said he did in Genesis 1: create the world out of nothing, and do it in a short time frame. He wants his people to work six days and rest on the seventh, and so he does the same himself.

I am in good company when I take Genesis 1-3 as literal; in fact, it's the best company you can be in.

That there is nothing at all beautiful, majestic, or divine about evolution is a subjective matter, and honestly, the more I study evolution the more I am amazed by its simplicity and completeness as a tool of God. But I appreciate your point. The difficulty of theodicy seems to be more acute from an evolutionary perspective: the world is full of suffering and death, so if this is how it has always been, how can we let God off the hook?

Much sacred gibberish has been bandied about over this but something everybody misses is that God never let Himself off the hook. The fact of it is hinted at in various places in the Bible, but it comes to the fore in Job 39. In this passage God is in the courtroom, and Job has dragged Him before the jury for sheer injustice. God is speaking. But what does He speak of? If you read the chapter, you'll see the representatives He's chosen from creation:

- the loss of the doe, whose young never return to her
- the scorn of the wild donkey
- the stubbornness of the wild ox
- the stupidity of the ostrich
- the terror of the war-horse
- the violence of the hawk and eagle.

God lists all these things before us the reader, and solemnly declares, "Can you do these things?" But why is He taking credit for all this savagery in nature and parading it down the courtroom in His defense? Is He actually taking pride in the futility of creation?

I treat this argument more fully here, a thread which you were involved in some time ago. But to me the issue of theodicy really has nothing to do with creationism. When one reads the Bible carefully, God simply doesn't let Himself off the hook, no matter how much we would like to get Him off on a technicality like "He made it all good and we screwed it up". We're attorneys trying to defend a client who has all but pleaded guilty. God's answer to theodicy is very different from our answer, and it doesn't invoke a perfect creation anywhere.
 
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Also, please explain to me your interpretation of Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

If sin entered the world through one man (Adam), how death entered through sin, how did death bring about Adam (Macro Evolution as the origin of man)? How did a process bring about a result that caused that original process?
Please follow my logic here so that you can formulate a good response:

A causes B, which causes C. It is a cause and effect relationship.
However, TE teaches that C causes A. It is a logical fallacy to believe that C causes A but that A is the result of C at the same time (being that it is not an endless loop).

If TE is true, than the Trinity is not the ultimate mystery of logic: the nature of Adam, sin, and death is the ultimate mystery of logic and reason.
Romans 5:12 is not talking about death in animals. It only say death spread to all men, and gives the reason this happened, 'because all sinned'. If death of animals is not the result of Adam's sin then there is no reason why this death should not have been in the world, part of the natural order God created, before man was formed.

Although I have never been a staunch believer in Macro Evolution as the origin of species, I do not ultimately have any scientific reason for rejecting this view of Evolution (though I have many, many, many serious questions and doubts); my reasons are ultimately theological, based on Scripture. For me, there is no question: should Scripture and any human theories or science seem to be at odds, it is my duty to believe in the Scriptures first, and interpret the rest of life through that. When one researcher stated that he believed rape was a natural part of sexuality, and that men were meant to participate in rape in order to advance the species, I rejected it; it may be somewhat natural to us in our fallen nature, but it is indeed not "the way men are supposed to be." I reject it on the grounds that the Scriptures teach us otherwise. Same with Evolution.
Finding food appealing to the eyes and good to eat, being formed to with bodies that appreciate and hunger after nice food does not tell us anything about the morality of taking food that does not belong to us. Morality is bigger than the way we were made, as Eve found out in the story.

There are basically only three essential reasons for rendering Genesis 1-3 as allegorical:

1) You are inherently skeptical of religious texts or claims to truth. You simply, in general, view all religious claims (particularly miraculous ones) as being untrue in the empirical sense.

2) You have some moral or intellectual obstacle that makes a literal interpretation difficult for your lifestyle and/or world-view.

3) Although it can be said to belong to #2, I'll make it separate: you have a scientific belief in Macro Evolution, and allow that to dictate how you interpret the Scriptures.
Oh dear. You have fallen into the trap of passing judgments on others: It is impolite and improper, for only a fool answers a case before he hears it (Proverbs 18:13 If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.) :p
There is another reason for a non literal interpretation of Genesis 1-3.

4) An appreciation of the text itself, and how the rest of scripture interprets the text shows it was not meant as a literal narrative.

Let me place them side-by-side for comparison:

ME = Macro Evolution as origin of species, S = Scripture

ME: Death is a natural part of the cycle of life.

S: Death is an unnatural result of sin, and was never the intended plan for mankind (Rev. 21:4, James 1:15)
Revelation 21:4 He will wipe away from them every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more. The first things have passed away." It sound to me like death and pain were part of the original creation, 'the first things' and will only disappear with the new creation.

James 1:15Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
Is James talking about physical death here or spiritual?
James 5:20let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

ME: Death has been around since life

S: Death entered into the world only after Adam, a man, sinned (Romans 5:12)
And death spread to all men because all sinned. So how do animals die? If their death is not the result of Adam's sin then why shouldn't it have been around since life began.

ME: Death brought Adam into existence.

S: Adam brought death into existence (through sin; Romans 5:12).
Death never brought anybody into existence. That is down to creature obeying God first command, being fruitful and multiplying.

ME: The world and biological life continue to develop, following the course of survival of the fittest.

S: The whole world groans in pain because of sin (Romans 8:22)
Actually Romans does not connect the world groaning with sin.

ME: The world and biological life were created in billions of years.

S: The world and all life in it were created in 6 days (Genesis 1).
If you assume we are supposed to interpret God's days literally, a mistake we are warned about by both Moses and Peter.

ME: Mankind evolved slowly and gradually from the primate family.

S: Man was created instantly from the "dust of the ground" (Genesis 2:7).
God as a potter, or forming people out of dust or clay, is a very common metaphor in the bible.

ME: Woman evolved simultaneously with man in this gradual process of evolution.

S: Woman was created from man, from his rib (Genesis 2:22).
According to Genesis, Paul and Jesus himself, Adam and Eve being 'one flesh' is an allegorical illustration of the sexual union in marriage.
 
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Is this a creation narrative? It is not in any way. This is the history of the Garden of Eden, in which Adam is brought to it. The statement that God "formed every beast of the field" can easily be rendered "had formed." There are two reasonable interpretations:

1) This is merely a statement that God had formed all of the animals, and now he is bringing these animals he made to Adam; there is no statement that this is the order of any creation, nor that they are being created right then and there for the first time to be brought to Adam.

2) These animals are specifically created in and/or for the Garden of Eden in order to achieve the immediate goal: find a helpmate for Adam.

It's very possible that people completely overlook the fact that creation is finished in its basic form, and now God is tending to the Garden of Eden where he will place his newly created man, Adam.
There is no justification for using the pluperfect 'had formed', the verb is in the same tense as verbs throughout the narrative which are translated with a simple past tense. The actual grammatical form of these verbs is what is called the 'waw consecutive' which is used to describe a consecutive series of events. God creating the beasts comes after God saying "it is not good for man to be alone." The use of the waw consecutive through out the narrative shows us very specifically that these events are being described in order. The fact that the order contradicts the order (with waw consecutives again) in chapter one tells us that one or both of the narratives are not meant literally.

A second creation of animal and birds seems an even stranger twist. Why would God create more animals after he had gone to all the trouble of creating the first lot and telling them to fill the earth? Why would Adam only name the animals from the second batch? Why would Genesis lay such emphasis on Adam naming all the animals if he ignored all of the first creation? And when did God create all livestock and every bird of the heaven that Adam named? After Adam was created Gen 2:19&20, or before Adam Gen 1:21&25?

Look again at this supposed "Creation narrative" in Genesis 2. See how the emphasis is on what God is doing in the Garden of Eden. Re-read this passage of Scripture with an eye to what is going on here based on the context, and it will be easy to understand. If you read this passage with the already held belief that it's another Creation narrative, you will of course find flaws with it; it's not a Creation narrative!
The story of God creating Adam, and vegetation, beasts, livestock birds and woman is not a creation narrative?

We live in a very twisted and corrupt world where learned men and women in universities can sit around a table and make an author's "yes" mean "no" and their "no" mean "yes." We do things to people's writings that we would never, ever want done to our own. Those in western society used to sit around tables and use all their knowledge of reason, logic, history, and literature to try to determine the original intent of the author to his original audience, and then we declared that to be the "truth" of a document. Now, we sit around and theorize about how we feel about it, what ideas a document "conjures up" in our heads as we read it, what we think the "deeper" or "secret" meaning could have been. What one person thinks it means and what another thinks it means is irrelevant; what is important is that everyone gets something out of it. This is wrong! This is horrible! This does great violence to the Scriptures!
I understand your frustration, but have you ever though that you may be doing the same thing yourself? We have a story where God sees that Adam is alone and then he creates all the animals and bring them to Adam to name. But apparently this is not what the story says. The animals were actually created earlier. I think TEs actually treat the story with much more respect and integrity allowing it to say what it says without twisting the meaning to fit our preconceived interpretive frameworks. It is what the story says and the way it says it that tells us it is giving an allegorical description of creation, a parable of the creation and fall rather than literal history.

And, of course, another obvious reason that there is no sufficient grounds for a literal interpretation is what follows these narratives: nothing special. There is no clear start and stop to this supposed "allegory;" that is, the "story" keeps going with Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Seth, right down into Noah, Lot, Abram, Sarai, etc. At exactly what point do we stop this allegorical interpretation? Do we ever stop interpreting allegorically? Genesis is not broken into chapters and verses, as most of you probably already know; documents simply kept going on and on.

I pose the serious question as to the alleged allegory of Genesis. At what point does the allegory cease and real history begin? Does it ever stop? Do we stop the allegory somewhere in Genesis at all, or do we just continue on until the end of the Pentateuch? Do we even stop the allegory for the opening of the NT with the epistles and gospels? These are legitimate challenges.
A good question, but surely we should look at each passage and try to understand what it means rather than using an one size fits all framework to fit them all? If I do not understand how to interpet Gen 4 and 5, it does not mean I ignore the allegory and symbolism in Gen 1-3.

Another challenge to the allegorical interpretation of Genesis 1-3 is the treatment of these Scriptures as history. Note the arguments used by Jesus in the gospels, as well as Paul in the epistles:

Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’

What does "from the beginning of creation" mean? Billions of years after God created the world, guided Evolution leads to a man? Does that qualify as "from the beginning of creation?" I definitely do not agree. Was even Jesus himself fooled by Genesis 1-3, believing them to be literal when they were really allegory? If Christ treated them as literal, I want to do the same.
How about from when God created of mankind? Jesus is discussing God's plan for man and wife, not the creation of the world, is there any reason to read the beginning of creation as the begining of the creation of the world? Besides if you read Genesis literally, Adam and Eve were formed at the end of the creation not the begining.

Another thing to consider is that 'the beginning of creation' is a common idiom, like 'the end of the earth' an idiom we do not take literally.

See Paul's treatment of Genesis as literal in the following verses:

Romans 5
Where Adam is described as a figure of Christ showing us Paul is actually discussing Adam allegorically here.

1 Corinthians 15:22
1 Corinthians 15:45
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. Note the use of the present tense. We are in Adam now and die in Adam the way we will be made alive in Christ. This is looking at Adam as a present allegorical figure that sums up the whole mortal human race.

1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.

Only two people in this allegorical picture and they sum up the entire human race between them. There have been plenty of people named Adam since but according to Paul Jesus was the last Adam. If we read Genesis literally Cain was the second man andnthere have been billions since, but according to Paul Jesus was the second man. Paul is not speaking literal history here.

1 Timothy 2:13-14
Why do people always leave out the last verse?
1Tim 2:15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

Verses 13-14 treat Gen 2&3 as an illustration of how husband and wife should relate, and allegorical lesson drawn from the passage. Verse 15 make no sense whatsoever if we take Paul as speaking literally.

We need to realise that Paul the Rabbi could be a lot more rabbinical in his teaching than we may expect.

Note how Jude treats Adam as a literal, individual human in Jude 14.
Jude does not say what Adam was, just where Enoch comes in the book of Genesis.
 
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ArcticFox

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Oh dear. You have fallen into the trap of passing judgments on others: It is impolite and improper, for only a fool answers a case before he hears it (Proverbs 18:13 If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame.) :p
There is another reason for a non literal interpretation of Genesis 1-3.

4) An appreciation of the text itself, and how the rest of scripture interprets the text shows it was not meant as a literal narrative.

Fair enough. You have a valid point, and that I should account for the reasons others give. Although I disagree that your reason #4 is a valid reason, it was unfair not to list it as a reason that people believe is valid. Point well taken.


Revelation 21:4 He will wipe away from them every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more. The first things have passed away." It sound to me like death and pain were part of the original creation, 'the first things' and will only disappear with the new creation.


I would simply disagree here. However, I think that's how most of the rest of my reply to your post would go, so I think it'll be good for me to cease here on commenting on those verses. I think my treatment of them earlier was sufficient.


Death never brought anybody into existence. That is down to creature obeying God first command, being fruitful and multiplying.

Death would have brought about mankind through Evolution (a process of mutation, birth and death).

God as a potter, or forming people out of dust or clay, is a very common metaphor in the bible.

I believe it's a metaphor because he did INDEED create us in similar fashion.


According to Genesis, Paul and Jesus himself, Adam and Eve being 'one flesh' is an allegorical illustration of the sexual union in marriage.

We can say it is an "allegorical illustration," but it's not the same as interpreting the whole of a historical narrative as allegory. God frequently gives us examples. This I believe is a fallacy, to argue that because God gives us parables or metaphors at certain points, that therefore we can take historical narratives as allegory as well.
 
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There is no justification for using the pluperfect 'had formed', the verb is in the same tense as verbs throughout the narrative which are translated with a simple past tense. The actual grammatical form of these verbs is what is called the 'waw consecutive' which is used to describe a consecutive series of events. God creating the beasts comes after God saying "it is not good for man to be alone." The use of the waw consecutive through out the narrative shows us very specifically that these events are being described in order. The fact that the order contradicts the order (with waw consecutives again) in chapter one tells us that one or both of the narratives are not meant literally.

A second creation of animal and birds seems an even stranger twist. Why would God create more animals after he had gone to all the trouble of creating the first lot and telling them to fill the earth? Why would Adam only name the animals from the second batch? Why would Genesis lay such emphasis on Adam naming all the animals if he ignored all of the first creation? And when did God create all livestock and every bird of the heaven that Adam named? After Adam was created Gen 2:19&20, or before Adam Gen 1:21&25?

The story of God creating Adam, and vegetation, beasts, livestock birds and woman is not a creation narrative?


I understand your frustration, but have you ever though that you may be doing the same thing yourself? We have a story where God sees that Adam is alone and then he creates all the animals and bring them to Adam to name. But apparently this is not what the story says. The animals were actually created earlier. I think TEs actually treat the story with much more respect and integrity allowing it to say what it says without twisting the meaning to fit our preconceived interpretive frameworks. It is what the story says and the way it says it that tells us it is giving an allegorical description of creation, a parable of the creation and fall rather than literal history.


A good question, but surely we should look at each passage and try to understand what it means rather than using an one size fits all framework to fit them all? If I do not understand how to interpet Gen 4 and 5, it does not mean I ignore the allegory and symbolism in Gen 1-3.


How about from when God created of mankind? Jesus is discussing God's plan for man and wife, not the creation of the world, is there any reason to read the beginning of creation as the begining of the creation of the world? Besides if you read Genesis literally, Adam and Eve were formed at the end of the creation not the begining.

Another thing to consider is that 'the beginning of creation' is a common idiom, like 'the end of the earth' an idiom we do not take literally.


Where Adam is described as a figure of Christ showing us Paul is actually discussing Adam allegorically here.


1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. Note the use of the present tense. We are in Adam now and die in Adam the way we will be made alive in Christ. This is looking at Adam as a present allegorical figure that sums up the whole mortal human race.

1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.

Only two people in this allegorical picture and they sum up the entire human race between them. There have been plenty of people named Adam since but according to Paul Jesus was the last Adam. If we read Genesis literally Cain was the second man andnthere have been billions since, but according to Paul Jesus was the second man. Paul is not speaking literal history here.


Why do people always leave out the last verse?
1Tim 2:15Yet she will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

Verses 13-14 treat Gen 2&3 as an illustration of how husband and wife should relate, and allegorical lesson drawn from the passage. Verse 15 make no sense whatsoever if we take Paul as speaking literally.

We need to realise that Paul the Rabbi could be a lot more rabbinical in his teaching than we may expect.


Jude does not say what Adam was, just where Enoch comes in the book of Genesis.

Assyrian, we will simply disagree completely here. I do not view these Scriptures with an eye to allegory; I believe the reason why is because I have no need to adjust my interpretive framework for a scientific theory (I use the word theory because it claims to explain a process that can never be repeated).

I specifically object to your treatment of Romans 5. Basically, you would have me believe that Adam is an allegorical figure while Christ is a real figure. Both figures are treated with the same language, but you turn one into an allegory and accept the other as historically real. Why? I just cannot do that with a clear conscience, nor can I do it and have any confidence that I study showing myself approved to God.

As for your statement about 1 Timothy 2:15, we must be careful: the word "saved" here is not a loaded theological term like it is today. To Paul and the writers of the NT, the Greek word used here was not a special theological word, it was a regular word. Not every instance of the word "saved" is speaking of salvation from sin.

A lack of clarity, or difficulty in interpreting, is still not a valid reason to fall back on allegory.

Your treatment of 1 Corinthians 15:45 is just silly. I believe your silly interpretation was invented purely to try to prove your point, but no one interprets in such a silly and obviously crazy manner. If you wish to convince me through interpretation, you'll have to use reasonable and realistic hermeneutics.

Let me point out the biggest flaw. You tried to force this view that the words "first" and "second" mean the first man alive and the second man alive. This is entirely a foolish tactic. It is clear that Paul is speaking of two people, and he refers to the first person as the "first," and the second as the "second." It's simple use of language. There is absolutely no one I have ever met or read who ever used such a foolish and absurd interpretive algorithm. Surely you must see how silly it is?

I think we'll simply disagree. My hope and prayer now is that God's people continue to have confidence that his Word is not mere allegory, but historical truth; God does not give us historical narratives and hope that we'll just figure out that he meant it allegorically.

The parables and marked allegories are clearly that: clear. They are made obviously, even painfully clear, that they are not true stories.
 
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Why not take everything literal?

Why not believe that revelations is literal?

Why not believing that blacksmith and the waster were created by god ex nihilo? (Isa 54:10)

I raise this question from time to time, no respond from a YEC so far ...

I'm not a YEC, so you'll have to ask one.
 
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Wow, that's a lot of material you've brought up there. I apologize for wrongly considering you a YEC; at the same time, it's apparent that you have as many mistaken first impressions of our beliefs as I have of yours.

You are always welcome to correct any misconceptions I have of your beliefs. The last thing I want to do is to argue with someone who doesn't exist!

I may excuse myself from this conversation after this post, and give you the last word if you wish to respond; I find that this subject hits some hard walls even faster than debates about homosexuality and women's roles in the church! :eek:

Now, as I understand your concept, a "just-so" story from any of the world's religions is the same, and I can switch one for another. Once a story has no historicity there is no other standard by which we can judge its truthfulness.

If that is true, by what standard are the parables true, since they have no historicity? And if they offer us "no more assurance than the nice stories that other religions offer us", why are they in the Bible?
The parables are NOT true. However, they teach us truths; that is why they are parables, and they are clearly so. Jesus explains the meanings of several of his parables directly. In fact, no one questioned that Christ was speaking in parables when he was. In fact, the problem is when they thought he was speaking allegorically when he wasn't (speaking about his death).

There is no language to mark Genesis as allegory (or a parable). There is no explanation given to us, and the writers of other Bible books treat these "allegories" as if they were true history. I would think that I can do no better than to treat them the same way as Jesus and Paul.



Of course we would try to confirm whether or not a narrative is historical. But whoever said they have to be? Narratives that put on the air of historicity are a dime a dozen, and I'm not just talking about April Fool jokes like TiSP or Gmail Paper. People have serious reasons to make narratives sound serious. I've used the exact technique you describe here on these forums. Why, the Bible itself has a case of mistaken literalness:
I understand your point, but these issues still offer nothing convincing. The reason is simple: it is obvious that these are parables! No one is questioning these, and in fact they are explained as parables.

There is no such thing with the Genesis narratives.

David took it literally and thought there was an actual rich man to get angry about. No doubt his next question would have been which city this had taken place in so that the rich man could have been brought to justice. But if David had been able to take it figuratively, would he not have perceived in a moment that he was the man? A narrative can be at its most powerful when it is most unreal - the story which slips past the "dragons at the door" (as C.S. Lewis put it) and explodes in our minds.
David knew it was a parable, because Nathan made that clear! Nathan did not leave David in the dark about what he was getting at. However, with Genesis, we are clearly left in the dark as to the significance of this "parable." And still, there is nothing to clearly (or even partially) qualify it as a parable.

Narratives that are not true can be ultimately powerful, but not if the narrative is meant as true and we accept as allegory. It may retain some of its ability to change us, but it loses significance and skews other interpretations.

About Adam and Eve, countless threads have discussed this here. My personal feelings about it (as well as a look at Romans 5, though in a slightly different context) are best explained here.
I just cannot subscribe in even the slightest to such a position. I see it as only a harmful misinterpretation. Although it isn't a damning heresy, it is very destructive and dangerous. I just cannot see any use of good hermeneutics ever producing such a view of Adam and Eve. I mean no disrespect, as you have been entirely respectful, but I see these kinds of arguments as the mere musings of worldly philosophers, nothing at all consistent with the Scriptural presentation of this information.

That there is nothing at all beautiful, majestic, or divine about evolution is a subjective matter, and honestly, the more I study evolution the more I am amazed by its simplicity and completeness as a tool of God. But I appreciate your point. The difficulty of theodicy seems to be more acute from an evolutionary perspective: the world is full of suffering and death, so if this is how it has always been, how can we let God off the hook?
As a convinced Calvinist (missing the Limited Atonement), I know what it is to have a God that just isn't as "clean and neat" as we would think he'd be. I know that God and the problem of evil is much bigger than we could imagine, and that God is perhaps closer to this situation than we would like to admit. However, I think we both agree that we know and are confident in God's goodness, love, and holiness.

Given all that, I still will never see Macro Evolution as anything but an ugly process of death, bearing no mark of the wonderful works of a glorious and holy God.

Your comments about Job are interesting, but I believe they are too obscure to carry to some full theological position. God's "parading" of these creatures does not require that death and suffering be a part of the world. God created mankind with the ability to know good and evil and to do both, but we were never ideally supposed to know evil or do it. Just the same, even if God makes the eagle capable of being an awesome predator, it does not mean that it was ever originally meant to be so (or to actually bring about suffering or death).

Just like many kings adorn their castles with swords that are never meant to be used (decorative), so God is not to be excluded from doing the same. After all, viewing this world purely through the lens of expediency robs you of the ability to see what the purpose of this world is: to make known the glory of God. With this as the purpose, there is no reason why God would purposefully make everything minimally "functional," as a view of Evolution might.

God's answer to theodicy is very different from our answer, and it doesn't invoke a perfect creation anywhere.
I agree our answers to these deeper, unanswered questions will always be limited. This new concept of a clean cut, easy to grasp God of love is the product of modern apologists who have tried to make God more palatable to the world. However, I disagree that he never made a "perfect creation."
 
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