A Calculating Age

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I agree that the entertainment factor of certain posters (myself included) is part of the reason why some people read this forum, however as we are here to discuss Creation and Evolution -- this thread will be for serious discussion. ( my question is below this amazing photograph )

carl-sagan-pale-blue-dot-500x234.jpg


Apparently the age of our earth can be calculated in a number of very complicated ways.

NB: No links, no quotes, only simple explanations by you.

Please use simple words, simple enough for an elementary school class to get a proper handle on the data. :)

Thanks in advance.
 

juvenissun

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I agree that the entertainment factor of certain posters (myself included) is part of the reason why some people read this forum, however as we are here to discuss Creation and Evolution -- this thread will be for serious discussion. ( my question is below this amazing photograph )

carl-sagan-pale-blue-dot-500x234.jpg


Apparently the age of our earth can be calculated in a number of very complicated ways.

NB: No links, no quotes, only simple explanations by you.

Please use simple words, simple enough for an elementary school class to get a proper handle on the data. :)

Thanks in advance.

I guess your hidden point is: no matter how is it calculated, it will be more than 6000. Is that right?

But don't forget that 6000 is also a calculated value.
 
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Freodin

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there is no direct way to measure the age of the universe.
some will say "cosmic background radiation" but this could simply be coincidence.

there are a few more ways, but they are all based one one or more assumptions.

There isn't a "direct" way to measure the age of anything. All of our methods to do that are based on one or more assumptions.

It is just that some assumptions are more reasonable than others and have more evidence for them than others.
 
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lewiscalledhimmaster

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There isn't a "direct" way to measure the age of anything. All of our methods to do that are based on one or more assumptions.

It is just that some assumptions are more reasonable than others and have more evidence for them than others.

How about the analysis of meteorites and lunar rocks?
 
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lewiscalledhimmaster

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Question: Please explain how you would calculate the age of the Earth?

NB:
No links, no quotes, only simple explanations by you. Please use simple words, simple enough for an elementary school class to get a proper handle on the data.

Mean-Teacher.jpg
 
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Freodin

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How about the analysis of meteorites and lunar rocks?

Can you explain the "direct" way to show the ages of meteorites and lunar rocks? What is this "direct" way?

What we do, in all cases, is (try to) count the effects of periodic events, starting from a singular event that we can safely assert as "the start".

That's it. No "direct" way.
 
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AV1611VET

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essentialsaltes

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Radioactive decay provides a very accurate clock.

Radiocarbon dating shows that some objects are at least tens of thousands of years old.

Uranium-thorium dating shows that some objects are at least 500,000 years old.

Several radiometric dating methods involve half-lives in the billions of years. They give consistent answers that the objects in the solar system (including the earth) are 4.5 billion years old.
 
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lewiscalledhimmaster

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Can you explain the "direct" way to show the ages of meteorites and lunar rocks? What is this "direct" way?

What we do, in all cases, is (try to) count the effects of periodic events, starting from a singular event that we can safely assert as "the start".

That's it. No "direct" way.

Did I do that? Nope, not I.

Sure.

Might one then begin with something as simple as say: THE SUN --- and eventually end up with a full explanation of RADIOCARBON DATING?

sun.jpg


I mean starting with a basic description of COSMIC RADIATION and moving along one tiny step at a time (NB: this is meant for children in elementary school -- so basic, very basic stuff) ;)
 
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Freodin

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Did I do that? Nope, not I.
Huh?

I mentioned that there is no direct way to calculate age. You asked me about meteorites... so I assumed that you think that there was a direct way to calculate the age of these.

I explained why there isn't.

So what "that" did you do? What "that" do you think I think you did do?


:confused:
 
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lewiscalledhimmaster

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Huh?

I mentioned that there is no direct way to calculate age. You asked me about meteorites... so I assumed that you think that there was a direct way to calculate the age of these.

I explained why there isn't.

So what "that" did you do? What "that" do you think I think you did do?


:confused:

It's perhaps a bit to complicated to begin with that. Hence my suggestion to begin with something like RADIOCARBON DATING -- even simpler: COSMIC RADIATION.

Maybe later on in this thread, we can have a look at something like that.
 
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lewiscalledhimmaster

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Radioactive decay provides a very accurate clock.

Radiocarbon dating shows that some objects are at least tens of thousands of years old.

Uranium-thorium dating shows that some objects are at least 500,000 years old.

Several radiometric dating methods involve half-lives in the billions of years. They give consistent answers that the objects in the solar system (including the earth) are 4.5 billion years old.

So RADIOCARBON DATING isn't much good in helping us figure out the Age of the Earth, correct?
Where do you suggest we begin with helping an elementary school class begin? RADIOMETRIC DATING?
 
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How about the analysis of meteorites and lunar rocks?
these will give the age of the solar system, not the universe.
this also assumes the physical laws we now know has been constant.
if the "big bang" actually happened there is a good chance our physical laws could have been very different from what we now know.

the "big bang" also brings up the question of where did all this energy come from and where the singularity itself came from.
this also implies there must be something the universe is expanding into.
IOW, there must be an "outside".
all of these are unanswerable.

the "big bang" isn't the only scientific theory out there.
the steady state model.
the plasma model.
and the string model.

the discovery of "dark matter" suggests that the observable universe isn't all there is.
some scientists speculate that as much as 2/3 remains "hidden"

there are no known models that can simulate galaxy formation from a "big bang" basis.
 
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lewiscalledhimmaster

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Hold on a minute. This whole matter of the age of the Earth was settled around about the same time that ELVIS (the soon to become King of Rock 'n Roll) recorded with SUN RECORDS.
Good on yer Clair Patterson!

elvis-presley-759.jpg
 
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essentialsaltes

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So RADIOCARBON DATING isn't much good in helping us figure out the Age of the Earth, correct?
Where do you suggest we begin with helping an elementary school class begin? RADIOMETRIC DATING?

Maybe I'm taking your elementary school class suggestion too literally, but...

Imagine there's a bird called the isoduck that lays eggs. And you're an isoduck farmer, and you have lots of isoducks and lots of isoduck eggs.

You discover that if you have a bunch of isoduck eggs, half of them will hatch into isoduck chicks every hour.

So if you put 16 eggs in a big box, after an hour, there would be 8 eggs and 8 chicks. And after another hour there would be only 4 eggs and 12 chicks. And so on.

One day one of your farmhands shows you a box. Inside it are 3 eggs and 9 chicks. He tells you that he only put eggs into the box, but now there are both eggs and chicks. You tell him, "I know when you put the eggs in the box."

He asks you how you know that. So kids, how do you know?

That's right! You know that half of the eggs hatch every hour. If there are 3 eggs now, that means an hour ago there were six eggs, and that means instead of 9 chicks, there were only 6 chicks and hour ago. And with six eggs and six chicks, obviously one more hour ago, there were 12 eggs. So your farmhand put the eggs into the box two hours ago.

By counting the number of eggs and chicks, you can calculate how long ago the eggs were put in a box.

Now the isoduck is made up. But in real life there are certain atoms that are radioactive. These radioactive atoms, also called isotopes, don't hatch into ducks, but they hatch into different kinds of atoms. For instance, one kind of potassium isotope hatches into an argon isotope.

And they hatch with the same rules as the duck. Only it isn't half of them every hour. It takes 1.3 billion years for half of them to hatch!

But the rules are the same, by counting the number of potassiums and argons, you can calculate how long ago the isotopes were put in a box.

Of course, there aren't any potassium farmers that put potassium isotopes in a box. But there are certain kinds of rocks that have potassium in them. And argon is a gas, so it shouldn't be found in a rock like this. But when we look, we find there are little argon isotopes trapped inside the rock! When the rock was hot and molten, the argon would all bubble away like steam escaping. So when the rock cools and gets hard, there's no argon inside. So all the argon that we see today came from the potassium isotopes hatching.

By counting the number of potassium and argon isotopes, you can calculate how long ago the rock cooled down and became solid.

And when we do that, we find that the oldest rocks on earth we find are more than 4 billion years old.
 
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