A bird with a T. rex head may help reveal how dinosaurs became birds

[Frank Robert]

Dinosaurs to Birds: Few fossils bridge the gap between dinosaur and bird. This one could help fill in some details​

Cratonavis, a newly discovered bird from 120 million years ago, might have filled a similar niche as today’s raptors.​

A 120-million-year-old fossil bird found in China could offer some new clues about how landbound dinosaurs evolved into today’s flying birds. The dove-sized Cratonavis zhui sported a dinosaur-like head atop a body similar to those of today’s birds, researchers report in the January Nature Ecology & Evolution.​

​

...It’s among just a handful of specimens that belong to a recently identified group of intermediate birds known as the jinguofortisids, says Luis Chiappe, a paleontologist at the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County who was not involved in the study. Its dino-bird mishmash “is not unexpected.” Most birds discovered from the Age of Dinosaurs exhibited more primitive, toothed heads than today’s birds, he says. But the new find “builds on our understanding of this primitive group of birds that are at the base of the tree of birds.”​

​

Cratonavis also had an unusually elongated scapula and hallux, or backward-facing toe. Rarely seen in Cretaceous birds, enlarged shoulder blades might have compensated for the bird’s otherwise underwhelming flight mechanics, the researchers say. And that hefty big toe? It bucks the trend of shrinking metatarsals seen as birds continued to evolve. Cratonavis might have used this impressive digit to hunt like today’s birds of prey, Li’s team says.​

 

[AV1611VET]

Nice picture.

Who drew it?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Nice picture.

Who drew it?

An artist. But let's watch you pin this on scientists.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Nice picture.

Who drew it?

Nice fossil also.

How do you think that dino-bird fossil got down there? Did a mischievous angel slip it into the ground when nobody was looking?

 

[AV1611VET]

Nice fossil also.

Yes.

As we're fond of saying:

All of God's creatures, great and small.

How do you think that dino-bird fossil got down there?

If it is antediluvian, it was layered there.

It it is postdiluvian, it rested there.

(Have you seen my pool challenge thread?)

My Pool Challenge

Did a mischievous angel slip it into the ground when nobody was looking?

Would you know it, if he did?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Doesn't sound too distant from the Crocoduck.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Doesn't sound too distant from the Crocoduck.

A VERY different thing all together.

 

[AV1611VET]

Doesn't sound too distant from the Crocoduck.

That's the first think that came to my mind when I saw this thread.

 

[doubtingmerle]

If it is antediluvian, it was layered there.

It it is postdiluvian, it rested there.

Well sure, but the question was whether you think this transitional bird existed. The fossil has intermediate features between dinosaur and bird, and is located in a layer where we would expect such transitions, and thus is evidence for evolution.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well sure, but the question was whether you think this transitional bird existed.

I do.

The fossil has intermediate features between dinosaur and bird,

So does a platypus.

... and is located in a layer where we would expect such transitions,

Before you go using that t-word, I saw someone on here make the point that ALL fossils are considered "transitional."

... and thus is evidence for evolution.

I'll give it a micro, but not a macro.

 

[doubtingmerle]

I'll give it a micro, but not a macro.

Ah, so this represents a transitional between ancient dinosaurs and birds. And that is, er, uh, micro-evolution?

That's odd. I would have thought the jump from dinosaur to bird was rather significant.

 

[AV1611VET]

Ah, so this represents a transitional between ancient dinosaurs and birds. And that is, er, uh, micro-evolution?

That's odd. I would have thought the jump from dinosaur to bird was rather significant.

Birds were on the earth before dinosaurs.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Birds were on the earth before dinosaurs.

Please show me a bird from the Triassic.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Please show me a bird from the Triassic.

In before whatever day of the Creation Week birds are in...

 

[AV1611VET]

Please show me a bird from the Triassic.

Ya -- like I'll get right on that.

 

[AV1611VET]

In before whatever day of the Creation Week birds are in...

DAY FIVE = BIRDS

Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

DAY SIX = DINOSAURS

Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Ya -- like I'll get right on that.

Well, if you are going to claim that birds came before dinosaurs, then yes, one would expect you to get right on that, and search for evidence for a bird fossil older than dinosaurs.

As there are dinosaurs in the Triassic, I suggest you find me a bird fossil in the Triassic or earlier. Otherwise, I am unconvinced by your claim.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, if you are going to claim that birds came before dinosaurs, then yes, one would expect you to get right on that, and search for evidence for a bird fossil older than dinosaurs.

My grandfather came before I did, and I'm sure I don't need to exhume his remains to convince anyone he did.

As there are dinosaurs in the Triassic, I suggest you find me a bird fossil in the Triassic or earlier. Otherwise, I am unconvinced by your claim.

According to Wikipedia, even finding a rabbit in the Precambrian wouldn't be the sockdolager that brings evolution to its knees.

In fact, evolution is expected to wax worse, culminating in the Tribulation period.

So I'm almost sure that, if they found a bird fossil in the Triassic, they'd just adjust the fossil RECORD accordingly.

 

[doubtingmerle]

According to Wikipedia, even finding a rabbit in the Precambrian wouldn't be the sockdolager that brings evolution to its knees.

In fact, evolution is expected to wax worse, culminating in the Tribulation period.

So I'm almost sure that, if they found a bird fossil in the Triassic, they'd just adjust the fossil RECORD accordingly.

We turn now to hypothetical birds in the Triassic? We can't find any real birds down there, so you turn to hypothetical birds? Really?

Hypothetically speaking, if a new confirmed finding hypothetically differs with established scientific theory, we would need to look for the best explanation. Case closed. Next question.

Back to reality. We find vast layers of Triassic rock throughout the Earth. There are many fossils of dinosaurs and other prehistoric life in these layers. But we never find mammals or birds. These Triassic layers are always below younger layers like the Jurassic and Cretaceous unless we see signs that folding or thrusting have rearranged the layers. Further, multiple measurements using multiple techniques consistently show that these Triassic rock layers have been experiencing radioactive decay for 200 to 250 million years after they were put in place.

If you say God arranged it this way after the Flood, why did he arrange it so everything looks so much like what we would expect if the Earth was here for 4.5 billion years? Why does it look so little like what we would expect if a massive flood-cleanup had occurred 4500 years ago in a young Earth? Why do we find dinosaur nests and dinosaur footprints in these supposed flood-cleanup layers?

If you say God laid these rocks out 4500 years ago complete with embedded age and embedded dinosaur footprints, how do I know that he did not create me last Thursday complete with embedded age and embedded memories?

I wonder. Will you ever say that flood cleanup geology and embedded age views can take a hike?

 

[AV1611VET]

We turn now to hypothetical birds in the Triassic?

In my opinion, there is no such thing as "Triassic."

What if they took the street you lived on and stretched it out to about 23 million miles, then claimed every hundred thousand miles or so the countryside was different?