9th Circuit Court upholds law banning conversion therapy

[The Cadet]

http://www.courthousenews.com/2016/08/23/gay-conversion-therapy-ban-upheld-by-9th-circ.htm

SAN FRANCISCO (CN) — A Ninth Circuit panel upheld California's ban on so-called gay conversion therapy for a second time Tuesday, finding that legislation prohibiting licensed counselors from the controversial practice is not unconstitutional.

Passed by the California Legislature in 2012, SB 1172 prohibits state-licensed psychiatrists, psychologists and counselors from using sexual orientation change therapy and other "reparative methods" on patients younger than 18.

[...]

"The Legislature's stated purpose in enacting SB 1172 was to 'protect the physical and psychological well-being of minors, including lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender youth, and to protect its minors against exposure to serious harms caused by sexual orientation change efforts.' The operative provisions of SB 1172 are fully consistent with that secular purpose," Graber wrote. "The law regulates the conduct of state-licensed mental health providers only; the conduct of all other persons, such as religious leaders not acting as state-licensed mental health providers, is unaffected."
​

Friendly reminder: so-called "conversion therapy" or "ex-gay therapy" has never been demonstrated to work in any meaningful way. It has, however, on numerous occasions been demonstrated to cause severe harm to the clients. Even if one assumes that homosexuality is something to be cured (a stance firmly rejected by the APA, AMA, AAP, and most other major scientific and medical bodies), ex-gay therapy remains non-functional and harmful.

Given that, the response by the plaintiffs is disingenuous at best:

In a phone interview, Pacific Justice Institute president Brad Dacus said, "We of course are very disappointed with this decision. This law we challenged makes it impossible for a minor under 18 who is personally struggling with sexual orientation or gender identity from being able to get the counseling they want in accordance with their personal beliefs, convictions and goals."

He added, "The fact that the law has no exemption for licensed counselors who are in ministry is a major concern for those of us who don't believe the federal government should be delving into religious matters."
​

Problems with this:

1. There's no good way to tell if the minor actually wants this therapy or is simply being coerced into it
2. The therapy demonstrably does not work
3. The therapy is demonstrably harmful
4. The mindset that the therapy arises from (that homosexuality is wrong) is demonstrably harmful
5. This is no more a religious matter than the abuse of children by clergy in any other form is a religious matter.

 

[SkyWriting]

h

1. This is no more a religious matter than the abuse of children by clergy in any other form is a religious matter.

What?

 

[trunks2k]

What?

The plaintiffs are trying to make it an issue of religion - as in "it's a violation of religious liberty to ban sending minors to conversion therapy". However, since such therapy has not been shown to work, and has in fact been shown to be harmful, such an argument is no more valid than saying that laws that won't let clergy abuse children are a violation of religious liberty.

 

[redleghunter]

Considering only God can convert the hearts and minds of His creation, I never understood this secular approach.

 

[SkyWriting]

Considering only God can convert the hearts and minds of His creation, I never understood this secular approach.

Secular groups are only concerned with results. If "Christianity" was the best
method for rehabbing people, that's what they would use.

The reason 12-steps programs can work is based on how they are structured.
Christian based groups have the same option to change peoples lives and
in some cases do.

 

[redleghunter]

Secular groups are only concerned with results. If "Christianity" was the best
method for rehabbing people, that's what they would use.

The reason 12-steps programs can work is based on how they are structured.
Christian based groups have the same option to change peoples lives and
in some cases do.

Not in disagreement with your point. I was focused mainly on the transformative power of the Holy Spirit in converting hearts and minds. The conforming of us to the Son's image as outlined in Romans 8.

 

[dgiharris]

I am of the belief that for whatever reason, God makes certain people gay.

We have to get over the view that being gay is a mistake. No one knows the will of God and why he does what he does.

In math and physics there is an argument if A = B then B = A.
If it is possible to convert gays to straight then it should be possible to convert straight to gay.

So then I ask myself, could I ever be made to stop desiring women and to desire men instead? And since that answer is a resounding no, then it stands to reason it would be no for gays as well.

In any event, conversion therapy is not only a sham but it is abuse of the highest order

 

[cow451]

http://www.courthousenews.com/2016/08/23/gay-conversion-therapy-ban-upheld-by-9th-circ.htm

SAN FRANCISCO (CN) — A Ninth Circuit panel upheld California's ban on so-called gay conversion therapy for a second time Tuesday, finding that legislation prohibiting licensed counselors from the controversial practice is not unconstitutional.

Passed by the California Legislature in 2012, SB 1172 prohibits state-licensed psychiatrists, psychologists and counselors from using sexual orientation change therapy and other "reparative methods" on patients younger than 18.

[...]

"The Legislature's stated purpose in enacting SB 1172 was to 'protect the physical and psychological well-being of minors, including lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender youth, and to protect its minors against exposure to serious harms caused by sexual orientation change efforts.' The operative provisions of SB 1172 are fully consistent with that secular purpose," Graber wrote. "The law regulates the conduct of state-licensed mental health providers only; the conduct of all other persons, such as religious leaders not acting as state-licensed mental health providers, is unaffected."
​

Friendly reminder: so-called "conversion therapy" or "ex-gay therapy" has never been demonstrated to work in any meaningful way. It has, however, on numerous occasions been demonstrated to cause severe harm to the clients. Even if one assumes that homosexuality is something to be cured (a stance firmly rejected by the APA, AMA, AAP, and most other major scientific and medical bodies), ex-gay therapy remains non-functional and harmful.

Given that, the response by the plaintiffs is disingenuous at best:

In a phone interview, Pacific Justice Institute president Brad Dacus said, "We of course are very disappointed with this decision. This law we challenged makes it impossible for a minor under 18 who is personally struggling with sexual orientation or gender identity from being able to get the counseling they want in accordance with their personal beliefs, convictions and goals."

He added, "The fact that the law has no exemption for licensed counselors who are in ministry is a major concern for those of us who don't believe the federal government should be delving into religious matters."
​

Problems with this:

1. There's no good way to tell if the minor actually wants this therapy or is simply being coerced into it
2. The therapy demonstrably does not work
3. The therapy is demonstrably harmful
4. The mindset that the therapy arises from (that homosexuality is wrong) is demonstrably harmful
5. This is no more a religious matter than the abuse of children by clergy in any other form is a religious matter.

 

[MrSpikey]

Christian based groups have the same option to change peoples lives and
in some cases do.

They can still try.

Now, they can only do so with consenting adults, however.

 

[J Cord]

I am of the belief that for whatever reason, God makes certain people gay.

We have to get over the view that being gay is a mistake. No one knows the will of God and why he does what he does.

Well said dgi.

 

[777Sloan]

.

 

[Paulos23]

How dare our young people have the freedom to choose to seek help in overcoming sexual identity psychological distress.

I know, let's make it so that they cannot have this freedom until they are 18. Why? Well...you know, for their own good. We can do that; we determine right and wrong for others, and our moral superiority qualifies absolute determination.

Given that most teenagers that I know that have been put in conversion therapy by their parents, and that most of their psychological distress is caused by their parents and/or or community for them being different, and this is proven not to work and is proven to be harmful, this is not taking away anyone's freedom. Most of the teens that came out where still gay or bi, and had psychological damage to deal with on top of it all.

 

[cow451]

How dare our young people have the freedom to choose to seek help in overcoming sexual identity psychological distress.

I know, let's make it so that they cannot have this freedom until they are 18. Why? Well...you know, for their own good. We can do that; we determine right and wrong for others, and our moral superiority qualifies absolute determination.

Minors must be protected from their well-meaning, but dangerous parents.

 

[The Cadet]

How dare our young people have the freedom to choose to seek help in overcoming sexual identity psychological distress.

They have every right to seek out that help. Just about any trained psychologist will be capable of helping a child deal with distress related to their sexual identity. They just can't seek it out in the form of conversion therapy, because conversion therapy has not been demonstrated to work and has been demonstrated to cause harm. This is not a hard concept. It really isn't. Teaching gay people they are evil and wrong and that they must reject their sexuality doesn't make them not gay. It just makes them suicidal.

I know, let's make it so that they cannot have this freedom until they are 18. Why?

Did you read the first post of the thread? Or almost any other post in the thread?

Well...you know, for their own good.

Oh. You did.

Yes! That is, in fact, the answer! Because when adults want to risk their own health and mental wellbeing with quackery, it's their business, but when children want to do so, it's our job as a society to protect them. Much like we have no problem letting a 40-year-old buy enough alcohol to kill himself with, but we keep the bottle away from little Timmy.

This really is as clear-cut as it gets. Even if you were to assume that being gay was somehow a disease or a mental disorder (it isn't, at least according to the AAP, APA, and AMA, among many others), ex-gay therapy would still both not work and cause harm. That's like trying to cure your child of being a ginger via waterboarding: it doesn't work, and it hurts the kid, and there's no reason to believe being a ginger is a problem to begin with.

 

[Hank77]

They have every right to seek out that help. Just about any trained psychologist will be capable of helping a child deal with distress related to their sexual identity. They just can't seek it out in the form of conversion therapy, because conversion therapy has not been demonstrated to work and has been demonstrated to cause harm.

I think you may be wrong, I'm not seeing 'conversion therapy' defined and it should be.
It seems the a 12 yr. old is old enough to consent to ANY mental health treatment that is consistent with Section 124260, including mind altering drugs, But is not old enough to consent to counseling the MAY lead him/her away from determining that they are not homosexual.

(o) Nothing in this act is intended to prevent a minor who is 12 years of age or older from consenting to any mental health treatment or counseling services, consistent with Section 124260 of the Health and Safety Code, other than sexual orientation change efforts as defined in this act.

Now this section might leave leeway for the adolescent to consent to counseling through which they determine that they are not homosexual. Except the very last clause could be a slippery slope for counselors to pursue maybe you are maybe you aren't counseling. It could keep them from asking pertinent questions, such as abuse questions.

(2) “Sexual orientation change efforts” does not include psychotherapies that: (A) provide acceptance, support, and understanding of clients or the facilitation of clients’ coping, social support, and identity exploration and development, including sexual orientation-neutral interventions to prevent or address unlawful conduct or unsafe sexual practices; and (B) do not seek to change sexual orientation.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201120120SB1172

What do the rest of you think?

 

[Cute Tink]

I think you may be wrong, I'm not seeing 'conversion therapy' defined and it should be.

(b) (1) “Sexual orientation change efforts” means any practices by mental health providers that seek to change an individual’s sexual orientation. This includes efforts to change behaviors or gender expressions, or to eliminate or reduce sexual or romantic attractions or feelings toward individuals of the same sex.

"Conversion therapy" is just another name for what the law labels "Sexual orientation change efforts".

It seems the a 12 yr. old is old enough to consent to ANY mental health treatment that is consistent with Section 124260, including mind altering drugs, But is not old enough to consent to counseling the MAY lead him/her away from determining that they are not homosexual.

Are those treatments for a condition that is:

not a disease, disorder, illness, deficiency, or shortcoming

If not then the question is about a different condition with a different treatment and, thus, not really relevant to the discussion.

Have such treatments been found to:

pose critical health risks to [the patient], including confusion, depression, guilt, helplessness, hopelessness, shame, social withdrawal, suicidality, substance abuse, stress, disappointment, self-blame, decreased self-esteem and authenticity to others, increased self-hatred, hostility and blame toward parents, feelings of anger and betrayal, loss of friends and potential romantic partners, problems in sexual and emotional intimacy, sexual dysfunction, high-risk sexual behaviors, a feeling of being dehumanized and untrue to self, a loss of faith, and a sense of having wasted time and resources

If not then it's not really in the same problematic category.

 

[Razare]

Friendly reminder: so-called "conversion therapy" or "ex-gay therapy" has never been demonstrated to work in any meaningful way.

Amen! The Bible teaches against all therapy, actually. The school of psychology is rejected in most all domains by scripture, which includes a lot of therapy.

Psychology is based upon human philosophy, primarily... Bible teaches against all philosophy: See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ. - Colossians 2:8

The Bible also rejects the sciences, because the sciences too are philosophical in nature and concerned with natural forces, which depend upon the "elemental spiritual forces of this world".

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called - 1 Timothy 6:20

So conversion therapy would never be needed for a Christian. The reason being, we do not repair people into Christians, we execute them into Christ. The execution, when properly done, kills homosexuality at its root, and delivers the person from it. No therapy required.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

The only reason Christians think there is a need for therapy, is because those Christians have unbelief about the power of water baptism to deliver us in this life to spiritually enforce a new life here and now.

Deliverance from all sin behaviors in scripture was meant to be done supernaturally upon being brought into the body.

 

[pakicetus]

The school of psychology is rejected in most all domains by scripture, which includes a lot of therapy.

At the time the Bible was written, psychology as a modern field of study didn't even exist.

 

[Hank77]

If not then it's not really in the same problematic category.

What I am saying is that if a 12 yr. old is enough to consent to mind altering drugs they are surely old enough to decide if they Want to talk about their feelings and explore why they may feel that way. Not all people who think that they may be gay, are gay. And that is a fact. To not allow them to do that is harmful to them. This type of counseling is not attempting to change an identity that they are sure of but an attempt to help them sort out any confusion they may feel.
To make a law that would restrict them from being able to do this is just wrong.
imo, this law is poorly written and closes the door to for these kids. Again we see that only one side of the coin is being considered and the victims will be children. These kids will be left out of the equation or will likely be talking to unqualified people, and it doesn't seem like very many people care about them.

 

[The Cadet]

Amen! The Bible teaches against all therapy, actually. The school of psychology is rejected in most all domains by scripture, which includes a lot of therapy.

You had me... Then you lost me. Psychology is a pretty darn important field of study that indisputably makes people's lives better. You might as well claim the bible is against medicine in general - that'd be cute. In that case the bible would be wrong and I don't like smallpox.

The only reason Christians think there is a need for therapy, is because those Christians have unbelief about the power of water baptism to deliver us in this life to spiritually enforce a new life here and now.

If I could hazard a guess as to why that might be the case: because baptism has about a 0% success rate when it comes to curing things like bipolar disorder, depression, and sociopathy. Becoming spiritual can help sometimes, but for people actually suffering from serious mental disorders, it does next to nothing.

Not that any of this has anything to do with ex-gay therapy; ex-gay therapy is not supported by psychology and rejected outright because it doesn't work. As opposed to a great many therapies in psychology which do work.