911 Towers Were Exploded Outwards, Not Collapsed

[Btodd]

people jumped who had no place eles to go

No place to go to escape what, exactly? They had to choose from being burned to death, or jumping.

...since this heat and fire completely melted and weakened the entire structure.

No, it didn't 'melt and weaken the entire structure'. The impact points are where the collapse began, when the weakened steel failed (after bearing excess load because of severed columns). The 'entire structure' does not have to be weakened in order to be crushed by the upper (and accumulating) mass crashing down on it.

I suggest you actually read a real science paper on the collapses, pgp protector linked to two of them on a previous page, if you want something outside of the NIST report.

I probably care more about the victims of 911 than you do

Now you're psychic?

You want everyone to stop talking about it, I want Americans to never forget it. only the 911 truthers are bringing up the subject I never see any threads you cover story believers are putting forth on the subject

I don't ever want Americans to forget it, either. 9/11 Truthers bring it up repeatedly, not because they 'don't want Americans to forget', but because they think a conspiracy happened, and they want to change public opinion.


Btodd

 

[ManFromUncle]

The Madrid fire is unbelievable, if a building can burn like a torch as that one did, for 20+hours and our buildings have a few scattered fires, on different floors and come crashing down at freefall speed, there definately needs to be an investigation in our building codes and architecture plans. And just like they rebuild airplanes after they crash, piece by piece. The same should of been done to building 7 so we would have a better idea as why several scattered fires cause universal symmetrical structure failure not just on one floor but the whole building literally disintegrated before our very eyes........this sort of thing NEVER HAPPENS!.... well it happened 3 times on 911 before that it never happened..............where are those guys? haven't they come up with past buildings falling yet?

Yes, they have yet to come up with a lot of things, since the tactic is to keep it bogged down on things where they think they can blow smoke ("prove there was $2.3 trillion to be stolen at the Pentagon!" I dunno. Ask CBS News) to keep people from going onto more dangerous ground, like who had the means, motive and opportunity to pull off this crime. They say "changing the subject!" You'd better believe it. They don't want it changed to where they don't want to go. Because 911 was mass murder, and mass murderers go to jail, or get lethal injections. They play the old "insulting the families" card when REAL 911 families, here, are calling for a new investigation. THIS TV AD IS NOW RUNNING IN NYC!!!

YouTube - ‪Help Put This Ad On Air - Go to BuildingWhat.org‬‏

They never like to talk about the complex flight paths, and how two of the planes nearly collided over Stewart AFB, or how the flight paths hugged the airspace of military bases.

At one point the two WTC planes crossed so close over Stewart AFB they almost collided. How likely is that?

From USA Today:
The two hijacked jets that demolished the World Trade Center nearly crashed into each other while heading to their target, according to a Federal Aviation Administration employee at a regional control center. “The two aircraft got too close to each other down by Stewart International Airport in New Windsor, N.Y., about 55 miles north of New York City, the employee told The Telegraph of Nashua.USA Today: FAA Employee: Hijacked jets almost collided

Now this is where the facts get pretty damning. Some speculate that Stewart is where remote control of the planes, old technology (controllers at Creech AFB in Nevada fly remote control drones over Afghanistan a hundred times a day,) was handed off for the final leg to NYC.

Whoa! Remote control of the planes??!! Hang onto your hat, you're going to love this. This is the stuff they don't want you to get to by bogging it down with "prove there was thermite!" even though you have ten times.

The inventor of this remote control technology which allowed ground controllers to seize control of hijacked planes happened to be Dov Zakheim, who was also Comptroller of the Pentagon at the time the $2.3 TRILLION was announced missing.. Zakheim was also a member of the Project for a New American Century,the "Neo-cons" who wound up running Bush's foreign policy and dreamed of overthrowing Saddam by force for a decade. PNAC wrote of this goal being elusive absent a "new Pearl Harbor." None of them had ever actually served in the military. Zakheim is speculated by some to be the mastermind behind 911, and comes from a family of Middle East terrorists in Irgun.

More about flight paths here:
The Memory Hole > Map: Hijacked 9/11 Flights and Military Bases

Pentagon Comptroller Dov Zakheim and Commercial Aircraft Remote Control "Flight Termination System"

Flying a plane by remote control is old technology (remote flying is common, Predator drones over Afghanistan.) In October 2001, the government was caught lying that it had the techology to override control of a commercial aircraft from the ground, ostensibly to foil hijackers and guide the plane in for a landing. The inventor of this technology was Dov Zakheim, CEO of Systems Planning Corporation (SPC) and later Comptroller of the Pentagon under George W. Bush at the time $2.3 trillion was announced missing from the Pentagon, on Sept. 10, 2001, the day before 911. The money has never been accounted for.

LINK: October 2, 2001: Remote Controlled Passenger Airplane Flew Before 9/11, Despite Claims to the Contrary (HistoryCommons.org)


A Raytheon 727 lands in New Mexico in August, 2001. [Source: Associated Press] It is reported that the US company Raytheon landed a 727 six times in a military base in New Mexico without any pilots on board. This was done to test equipment making future hijackings more difficult, by allowing ground control to take over the flying of a hijacked plane. [Associated Press, 10/2/2001; Der Spiegel (Hamburg), 10/28/2001]

Wikipedia entry for Dov Zakheim:

"From 1987-2001, Zakheim was CEO of SPC International, a subsidiary of System Planning Corporation, a high-technology analytical firm...He was then appointed to be Undersecretary of Defense and Comptroller from 2001 to 2004 under the George W. Bush administration, and served in this capacity until April 2004.

SPC description of Flight Termination System (click on image):


The above document reads:


"Flight Termination System...System Planning Corporation's is proud to offer the Flight Termination System (FTS), a fully redundant turnkey range safety and test system for remote control and flight termination of airborne test vehicles."


Hmm.

It turns out that Zakheim also in early 2001 sent at least 32 767s (the kind which hit the towers) to MacDill AFB in FLA to be refitted as tankers. He was Comproller of the Pentagon. He could do that kind of thing.

BUT WHY?

War is about money. honey! Read one of the greatest generals you never heard of, Marine General Smedley Butler, double Medal of Honor, who wrote the book "War is a Racket."

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes."

911 Wars have cost at least $5 trillion (national debt is $14 trillion) that is $50,000 for every American family.

MSNBC News: "Defense CEOs doing well since 9/11, study says":

"Stock price gains for defense contractors have averaged 48 percent while the overall stock market has remained flat. Stock market gains translate into higher pay for executives, who often reap windfalls from stock options."

And check out this article at a Wall Street newsletter Investing Daily:

"The Afghanistan troop surge means profits!...the likelihood that the U.S. will end up the loser in Afghanistan is a long-term worry. In the short-term, military contractors doing business in Afghanistan will make a boatload of money..."

The top suspects for 911, according to former Assistant Deputy Secretary of State Dr. Steve Pieczenik, are the same people in the Bush administration who have wanted to invade Iraq all along, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Pentagon Comptroller Dov Zakheim, Elliot Abrams, etc. They have made no secret of it, and created the think tank Project for a New American Century(PNAC) and wrote letters urging Clinton to overthrow Saddam in the 90s. In 1996 an important policy paper was written for Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu called: "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm" Which advised:

"Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing, and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right as a means of foiling Syria's regional ambitions."

Who were the authors of this paper? The people who later became George Bush's foreign policy team, and members of Project for a New American Century, including Richard Perle and Douglas Feith.

The men best placed to stand down the air defenses and access the towers (Marvin Bush, George's little brother, held the security contract for the complex) are the same men who have been itching to overthrow Saddam for decadess. Without 911, a new Pearl Harbor, the invasion of Iraq would never have been possible.

Dick Cheney failed to order the plane coming into the Pentagon shot down, despite ample opportunity. Why isn't he being called up for treason? This is from testimony by Norman Panetta to the 911 Commission.

These people in PNAC once wrote

"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event, like a new Pearl Harbor" - Project for a New American Century, Sept. 2000

​

Dr. Pieczenik, former Assistant Deputy Secretary of State under three presdients, says he will go under oath under penalty of perjury and tell a congressional committee the name of a general on Paul Wolfowitz's staff (Bush's Deputy Secretary of Defense) who confirmed to him 911 was an orchestrated event.

[SIZE=-1]Contacting the Congress: A Citizen's Congressional Directory

[/SIZE]

Suspected 911 conspirators
​

Who Did It? - Conspirators
​

 

[oldbetang]

well this massive fire that you claim, has people standing where the flames have subsided, holding onto the structure. If this fire burned so HOT as you believe #1 the smoke would have been white, not billows of black smoke which show lack of oxygen and

What do you make of the following then?

​

Also, consider the following:

Large fires involving plastics produce copious quantities of black smoke..
​

#2 people could of never have stood where such an intense fire had just recently been as the floor and walls and cieling would have radiated heat like an oven.

The fires raging within the building were drawing air through the opening where at least one person was seen standing. That air flow would have certainly had a cooling effect.

Then take in account none of the floors below this disaster are on fire or being weakened, even if I were to believe such a theory as to ten or so floors falling into the remaining 100 undamaged floors, the rate of resistance would slow the fall and collapes down not speed it up, each floor that came into impact of the above weight would resist so if we were to actually watch this scenerio unfold it may have collapsed a few untouched floors but it would of never reacted the way we see the twin towers fall.

How did you come up with that? Speed it up? What are you talking about?

Just as I mentioned earlier a building in Bangledesh had 6 floors collapes all at once due to fire and the first floor it hit (that wasn't affected by fire) it was stopped it resisted the fall, now if it had broken through that first structurally sound floor, the speed would been reduced and the next floor would have resisted and reduced untill finally it would of stopped. Also each floor that resisted would never be completely laterally equal some parts or sides of the building would have been higher or lower in resistance, where as it would never continue down in an even fall. thats the exact reason demolition experts come in play to bring down a building, BECAUSE THEY NEVER NATURALLY FALL THAT WAY ! NEVER! If they did they would just blow up one floor and watch the building fall into its footprint, Like I said, just the fact alone that these buildings fell the way they did warrants an investigation! not in terrorist attacks and who was involved! but what the heck is wrong with American construction and why these buildings break all records of what normally happens in fire and disaster.

6 floors? That's all? What was the weight of 6 floors? How does that compare with the 20 floors of the North Tower and the 42 floors of the south tower?

 

[oldbetang]

This is particularly insulting to the victims of 9/11, considering more than 100 people jumped to their deaths that day. Why were they jumping if the fires weren't that bad?

The smoke was suffocating them? Just a thought.

 

[spiritman1]

The smoke was suffocating them? Just a thought.

Hey oldbetang you didn't have to torch your hoveround just to make a point, yeah that hole in the tower where steel was heated to the point of failure it cooled right down, so some poor victim could wave at you, hoping you would do the right thing and find out who was behind this thing. because if you want me or anyone eles to believe 19 Arabs armed with box cutters led by a guy hiding in a cave, outsmarted our whole Military defense system, Pentagon defense system, and all the Intelligence systems in between you are a very naive man......think about what you want people to believe! Its a much crazier conspiracy story that 19 Arabs with box cutters could succeed at such a incredible plan

 

[oldbetang]

Hey oldbetang you didn't have to torch your hoveround just to make a point, yeah that hole in the tower where steel was heated to the point of failure it cooled right down, so some poor victim could wave at you, hoping you would do the right thing and find out who was behind this thing. because if you want me or anyone eles to believe 19 Arabs armed with box cutters led by a guy hiding in a cave, outsmarted our whole Military defense system, Pentagon defense system, and all the Intelligence systems in between you are a very naive man......think about what you want people to believe! Its a much crazier conspiracy story that 19 Arabs with box cutters could succeed at such a incredible plan

I know that 19 Arabs with utility knives carried out the dastardly deeds of 9/11. The vast majority of Americans believe that 19 Arabs with utility knives carried out the dastardly deeds of 9/11. Only a small fringe group believe otherwise. You guys are the naive ones. You've been duped by shysters like Alex Jones and David Ray Griffin.

 

[spiritman1]

I know that 19 Arabs with utility knives carried out the dastardly deeds of 9/11. The vast majority of Americans believe that 19 Arabs with utility knives carried out the dastardly deeds of 9/11. Only a small fringe group believe otherwise. You guys are the naive ones. You've been duped by shysters like Alex Jones and David Ray Griffin.

I'm afraid its much more than a small fringe group, and its growing everyday, people are tired of their governments lies and deceptions. someday the people behind this will all face justice, and I think you will be very humble that day

 

[oldbetang]

I'm afraid its much more than a small fringe group, and its growing everyday, people are tired of their governments lies and deceptions. someday the people behind this will all face justice, and I think you will be very humble that day

I've been hearing that nonsense for five years now. About how the Truther movement was growing exponentially and that a wave of Trutherism was sweeping across America. The real truth of the matter is that the Truther movement peaked about five years ago. Oh, you've seen some new blood come in , for sure. However, they haven't been sufficient in numbers to replace those who have grown up and left.

Realistically, you don't have a hope in obtaining another government investigation, let alone of bringing anyone but Islamists to justice. About 16% of the public believe that 9/11 was an inside job. Compare that with about 70% who believe that the JFK assassination was an "inside job". Who has been brought to justice for the assassination of JFK? Think about that.

 

[spiritman1]

I've been hearing that nonsense for five years now. About how the Truther movement was growing exponentially and that a wave of Trutherism was sweeping across America. The real truth of the matter is that the Truther movement peaked about five years ago. Oh, you've seen some new blood come in , for sure. However, they haven't been sufficient in numbers to replace those who have grown up and left.

Realistically, you don't have a hope in obtaining another government investigation, let alone of bringing anyone but Islamists to justice. About 16% of the public believe that 9/11 was an inside job. Compare that with about 70% who believe that the JFK assassination was an "inside job". Who has been brought to justice for the assassination of JFK? Think about that.

Oh! I'm sorry I didn't mean human justice, I meant there is a day coming when they will face the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords and face a Holy and Godly justice, the bible is perfectly clear on the matter about deception and lies, they according to the bible will become worse and worse all the way up untill the end, In fact the antichrist according to the book of Daniel will be well versed sinister schemes, through his cunning he shall cause deceit to prosper (see Daniel 10:23-26) There is groups of people that basically control everything, as much as you want to believe they don't a few presidents tried to warn the American people as they became all to aware of this problem when they came to sit in the highest seat in the land. most were assassinated. Others spoke as they were leaving office, but most really weren't listening, they were as you are, living in a world where everything is seen through rose colored glasses, and just for the record the truth about JFK started at a much lower level than 911, It takes alot of truth to set people free when they so desperately want to hold onto the safe feeling of lies. There really is no benefit in knowing the truth, in fact your much better off where your at.

 

[ManFromUncle]

//

 

[oldbetang]

Oh! I'm sorry I didn't mean human justice, I meant there is a day coming when they will face the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords and face a Holy and Godly justice, the bible is perfectly clear on the matter about deception and lies, they according to the bible will become worse and worse all the way up untill the end, In fact the antichrist according to the book of Daniel will be well versed sinister schemes, through his cunning he shall cause deceit to prosper (see Daniel 10:23-26)

Ok, that doesn't bode well for the likes of David Ray Griffin. He of all people should know better than to spread around lies.

There is groups of people that basically control everything, as much as you want to believe they don't a few presidents tried to warn the American people as they became all to aware of this problem when they came to sit in the highest seat in the land. most were assassinated. Others spoke as they were leaving office, but most really weren't listening, they were as you are, living in a world where everything is seen through rose colored glasses,

You live in a scary world. It's the Jews right? It's always the Jews. Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley, and Kennedy were all killed by the Illuminati?? WOW!

and just for the record the truth about JFK started at a much lower level than 911, It takes alot of truth to set people free when they so desperately want to hold onto the safe feeling of lies. There really is no benefit in knowing the truth, in fact your much better off where your at.

Not true. A poll taken two weeks after the Kennedy assassination found that a majority of Americans believed in a conspiracy.

 

[Btodd]

Here they are, again.
@ManFromUncle:

Originally Posted by Btodd

You've never addressed how these powerful explosions were so quiet, nor how thermite is supposed to:

1. Leave molten metal for weeks
2. Sever vertical columns, in perfectly-timed succession to make it appear like it collapsed from the top-down, since it uses gravity to 'melt' through its target (like an acid would)
3. Survive the impact of the planes and ensuing fires and still work
4. How any of this was installed, what mechanism would be used
5. How much thermite would be needed to accomplish this
6. A single example of thermite ever being used to demolish a skyscraper, after saying it's 'old hat in demolitions'

Also, still asking (this is at least the 6th time now) for you to answer the question, 'Why did the 2nd building to be hit collapse FIRST?'.


Btodd
​

 

[ManFromUncle]

Here they are, again.
@ManFromUncle:

Originally Posted by Btodd

You've never addressed how these powerful explosions were so quiet, nor how thermite is supposed to:

1. Leave molten metal for weeks
2. Sever vertical columns, in perfectly-timed succession to make it appear like it collapsed from the top-down, since it uses gravity to 'melt' through its target (like an acid would)
3. Survive the impact of the planes and ensuing fires and still work
4. How any of this was installed, what mechanism would be used
5. How much thermite would be needed to accomplish this
6. A single example of thermite ever being used to demolish a skyscraper, after saying it's 'old hat in demolitions'

Also, still asking (this is at least the 6th time now) for you to answer the question, 'Why did the 2nd building to be hit collapse FIRST?'.


Btodd
​

1. Leave molten metal for weeks

How should I know but you have accepted the fact that they did find molten steel which is the important part. Ask a chemist for the specific exothermic reaction (gives off heat, rather than absorbs it.) We know gravitational collapse cannot cause molten steel.

2. Sever vertical columns, in perfectly-timed succession to make it appear like it collapsed from the top-down, since it uses gravity to 'melt' through its target (like an acid would)

Again at least you accept this is what happened, since you are asking for the mechanism rather than disputing the observation. The absence of a mechanism does not mean the observation never happened. That's like saying if you can't tell me how that big fireball in the sky puts out so much heat, it ain't there. Stupid. Perfectly timed succession is how demolitions work. You answered your own question.

3. Survive the impact of the planes and ensuing fires and still work

Papers I've read say it has a very high ignition temperature. Look it up and get back to me, but I know you won't, because then you'll be arguing with facts, and you don't like those.

4. How any of this was installed, what mechanism would be used

What am I, the guy who installed it? If you sincerely want to know (you don't) get Marvin Bush on the witness stand, his company held the security contract, and ask him for the logs to the building.

5. How much thermite would be needed to accomplish this

Beats me, ask the demolitions expert below, they're the ones that use it.

6. A single example of thermite ever being used to demolish a skyscraper, after saying it's 'old hat in demolitions.'

If I have to show you this video one more time after this I'll vomit. Can you see the demolition expert telling you how it is used? I'm bookmarking this page for later so don't play dumb anymore. Why don't you try actually watching the video? I watched yours, that's basic respect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J8ojEWlkrs

Also, still asking (this is at least the 6th time now) for you to answer the question, 'Why did the 2nd building to be hit collapse FIRST?'

.

This confirms even more that it was a demolition, because the building burning longer should have gone first, and it doesn't matter where it was hit, which is how you are trying to prove your magic show that 10 floors or 30 floors pushed down and made the collapse. You are forgetting about the 80-90 stories of 35,000 tons of vertical steel, continuous beams pushing up, it's called static resistance. Steel doesn't just roll down on itself. Also the reason those floors are on top is that they are the lightest, or you are a lousy engineer.


And now about that respect, I've answered your questions (or did u forget already? Look up so address mine please. Most important the last, are you in favor of the former Assistant Deputy Secretary of State Dr. Steve Pieczenik getting his hearing, under oath, to say the name of general on Wolfowitz's staff who told him 911 was an inside job, under penalty of perjury, and if he lies we can send him to jail? Because if we can agree on that we can work to get the hearing, and of course you're betting he's lying and I'm betting he's not, but that's ok. I'll accept the outcome. We can unite on this if you like.

How likely do you find it that two of the planes nearly collided over Stewart AFB, as reported by USA Today? Or how the flight paths hugged the airspace of military bases?

Flight paths:

From USA Today:

The two hijacked jets that demolished the World Trade Center nearly crashed into each other while heading to their target, according to a Federal Aviation Administration employee at a regional control center. “The two aircraft got too close to each other down by Stewart International Airport in New Windsor, N.Y., about 55 miles north of New York City, the employee told The Telegraph of Nashua.USA Today: FAA Employee: Hijacked jets almost collided

More about flight paths here:
The Memory Hole > Map: Hijacked 9/11 Flights and Military Bases

Once again,remote control of the planes is old technology. Controllers at Creech AFB in Nevada fly remote control drones over Afghanistan a hundred times a day. This is true even of very large planes. One of the largest is the Global Hawk pictured below:

The inventor of remote control technology which allowed ground controllers to seize control of hijacked planes (did you get that?) happened to be Dov Zakheim, who was also Comptroller of the Pentagon at the time the $2.3 TRILLION was announced missing.. Zakheim was also a member of the Project for a New American Century,the "Neo-cons" who wound up running Bush's foreign policy and dreamed of overthrowing Saddam by force for a decade. PNAC wrote of this goal being elusive absent a "new Pearl Harbor." Zakheim is speculated by some to be the mastermind behind 911, and comes from a family of Middle East terrorists in Irgun.

In October 2001, the government was caught lying that it had the technology to override control of a commercial aircraft from the ground, to foil hijackers and guide the plane in for a landing.

LINK: October 2, 2001: Remote Controlled Passenger Airplane Flew Before 9/11, Despite Claims to the Contrary (HistoryCommons.org)


A Raytheon 727 lands in New Mexico in August, 2001. [Source: Associated Press] It is reported that the US company Raytheon landed a 727 six times in a military base in New Mexico without any pilots on board. This was done to test equipment making future hijackings more difficult, by allowing ground control to take over the flying of a hijacked plane. [Associated Press, 10/2/2001; Der Spiegel (Hamburg), 10/28/2001]

Wikipedia entry for Dov Zakheim:

"From 1987-2001, Zakheim was CEO of SPC International, a subsidiary of System Planning Corporation, a high-technology analytical firm...He was then appointed to be Undersecretary of Defense and Comptroller from 2001 to 2004 under the George W. Bush administration, and served in this capacity until April 2004.

Here is the marketing lit from Zakheim's SPC on the system which allows control of commercial planes to be seized from the ground.

SPC description of Flight Termination System (click on image):


The above document reads:


"Flight Termination System...System Planning Corporation's is proud to offer the Flight Termination System (FTS), a fully redundant turnkey range safety and test system for remote control and flight termination of airborne test vehicles."


Zakheim also in early 2001 sent at least 32 767s (the kind which hit the towers) to MacDill AFB in FLA to be refitted as tankers. He was Comproller of the Pentagon.

Now here's the question, yes or no, does this pattern establish "means and opportunity," again since we can dismiss the official conspiracy miracle show of 19 guys with box cutters.

Project for New American Century has been wanting to re-make the map of the Middle East by force for years. Any American worth his or her salt needs to know about Project for New American Century. The top suspects for 911, according to former Assistant Deputy Secretary of State Dr. Steve Pieczenik, are the same people in the Bush administration who have wanted to invade Iraq all along, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Pentagon Comptroller Dov Zakheim, Elliot Abrams, etc. In 1996 an important policy paper was written for Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu called: "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm" Which advised:

"Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing, and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right as a means of foiling Syria's regional ambitions."
​

Who were the authors of this paper? The people who later became George Bush's foreign policy team, and members of Project for a New American Century, including Richard Perle and Douglas Feith.

Does this not establish motive? When a criminal investigator has motive, means and opportunity, he opens a case.

How did they get into the towers to wire them? Guess what? Marvin Bush, George's little brother, held the security contract for the complex. Remember, without 911, a new Pearl Harbor, the invasion of Iraq would never have been possible.

Why did Dick Cheney fail to order the plane coming into the Pentagon shot down, despite ample opportunity? This is from testimony by Norman Panetta to the 911 Commission.

These people in PNAC once wrote:

"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event, like a new Pearl Harbor" - Project for a New American Century, Sept. 2000
​

​

Dr. Pieczenik, former Assistant Deputy Secretary of State under three presdients, says he will go under oath under penalty of perjury and tell a congressional committee the name of a general on Paul Wolfowitz's staff (Bush's Deputy Secretary of Defense) who confirmed to him 911 was an orchestrated event.

Okay, would you be in favor of Dr. Pieczenik getting his hearing under oath, and if he turns out to be lying, throw him in jail for perjury? Because if we can agree on that, we can put this to bed. We'll both work for him to get his hearing, and let the chips fall.

CONTACT CONGRESS

"Planning the attacks was a master deed, in technical and organizational terms. To hijack four big airliners within a few minutes and fly them into targets within a single hour and doing so on complicated flight routes! That is unthinkable, without backing from the secret apparatuses of state and industry." -German Defense Ministry Secretary and Intelligence Overseer Andreas Von Bulow
​

911truth.org : Now That You Know, What Can You Do?

Who Did It? - Suspected Conspirators
​

Main website:

911: Shock and Awe Master Deed. Prosecute Giuliani.

 

[spiritman1]

Here they are, again.
@ManFromUncle:

Originally Posted by Btodd

You've never addressed how these powerful explosions were so quiet, nor how thermite is supposed to:

1. Leave molten metal for weeks
2. Sever vertical columns, in perfectly-timed succession to make it appear like it collapsed from the top-down, since it uses gravity to 'melt' through its target (like an acid would)
3. Survive the impact of the planes and ensuing fires and still work
4. How any of this was installed, what mechanism would be used
5. How much thermite would be needed to accomplish this
6. A single example of thermite ever being used to demolish a skyscraper, after saying it's 'old hat in demolitions'

Also, still asking (this is at least the 6th time now) for you to answer the question, 'Why did the 2nd building to be hit collapse FIRST?'.


Btodd
​

right out of the gate, your completely in error the explosions were not silent, and hundreds of eyewitnesses have confirmed these explosions. you just keep denying that they ever happened, when someone post utube live video of that day of people telling about the explosions, you act as if it never happened. nobody should answer you anymore because you obviously have your own agenda

 

[Btodd]

@ManFromUncle:

Thanks for at least finally making an attempt on some of these, and I'm gonna do my best here to ignore the insults and see if we can still have a give-and-take discussion.

But the first question was skipped, it was how the 'explosions' (as you put it, 'with 5 times the force of a normal demolitions charge') were so quiet. For the record, that is how the thermite hypothesis originally came up in the Truth movement many years ago, when they were stumped by questions about such quiet explosions when they claimed it was a 'controlled demolition'. Voila, 'it was thermite' became the new claim. Now, it appears to be a mixture of the two claims, 'explosions PLUS thermite'.

So that part remains a big contradiction, a force 5 times greater, yet not even as loud. I would like to hear how you resolve that.

1. How thermite would leave molten metal for weeks.

How should I know but you have accepted the fact that they did find molten steel which is the important part. Ask a chemist for the specific exothermic reaction (gives off heat, rather than absorbs it.) We know gravitational collapse cannot cause molten steel.

Don't change my words. I have repeatedly told you that you have no idea that any molten metal was actually molten steel, and I have yet to see any evidence of this. The question is, 'given claims about molten metal', how would thermite leave molten metal for weeks? Since you appeal to it as evidence of wrongdoing, that's the question. Your hypothesis would have to explain this.

And what you've said here is, 'I don't know'. I will remind you that thermite burns at very high temperature, and it burns up very quickly. It eats through the target using gravity. When you make claims about 'molten steel' as if it's evidence that thermite was used, you are saying that thermite did something that thermite DOES NOT DO. It does not leave molten metal for weeks, no matter what metal we talk about. So this repeated attribution of 'molten steel', which I again do not accept (although I will accept claims about molten metal), is not explained by thermite in the slightest. So each time you try to make that connection, you are completely wrong about what thermite even does. It doesn't do that.

That can be explained because of a burning building collapsing, and heat being trapped in the rubble, melting other metals at much lower temperatures. If you want to me to give examples of this happening in other fires, I will be happy to.


2. Sever vertical columns, in perfectly-timed succession to make it appear like it collapsed from the top-down, since it uses gravity to 'melt' through its target (like an acid would)

Again at least you accept this is what happened, since you are asking for the mechanism rather than disputing the observation.

The observation is that the Twin Towers collapsed from the top-down, starting at the impact points. I'm asking how, if you do not accept the explanation provided by NIST and other scientific papers on it, the thermite hypothesis explains this type of collapse. Let's see what you have to say below.

The absence of a mechanism does not mean the observation never happened.

Again, the observation is that the collapse happened from the top-down, starting at the impact points. If we agree on that, then it's a matter of putting our hypothesis to the test and seeing which one explains that observation the best, with the least amount of assumptions (Occam's Razor). So again, let's see how you explain that with 'thermite'.

That's like saying if you can't tell me how that big fireball in the sky puts out so much heat, it ain't there. Stupid.

No need for you to try and get cute here, and I'm not sure you even understood the question, given this statement. The observation is of a building collapsing from the top-down, and without demolitions charges going off. So, what is your explanation of the mechanism? I already have one (which I will be happy to elaborate on again, if you wish), and have yet to hear yours, other than the word 'thermite'. You aren't explaining anything at all yet. There is no thermite mechanism for this...that's not how thermite works.

Perfectly timed succession is how demolitions work. You answered your own question.

Demolitions work by setting off a perfectly-timed sequence of very loud, powerful detonations that can be both seen and heard (and heard for miles). Since that did not happen in this collapse, then the question is still only answered by the explanation I have given, but not AT ALL explained by thermite. Thermite burns through its target using gravity, and it's not an 'instant' process that can be timed, like a demolitions charge, so you need to explain how somebody was able to use it to sever vertical columns, in perfectly timed succession, to bring the Towers down from the top-down in a manner that looks exactly like a gravity-driven collapse that started when the upper block collapsed onto the lower block, at the weakened impact points. Again, what you're attributing to thermite is something that THERMITE DOESN'T DO.


3. Survive the impact of the planes and ensuing fires and still work

Papers I've read say it has a very high ignition temperature. Look it up and get back to me, but I know you won't, because then you'll be arguing with facts, and you don't like those.

Again, your attempt at an insult isn't going to pass for an answer here. Yes, thermite does have a high ignition temperature. But if you're gonna claim (or imply) that the top-down collapse was accomplished by a series of thermite reactions all the way down vertical columns, timed just right to look like that, then there has to be a mechanism for delivering the thermite to each of these places (this assumes you could explain how it burned sideways through a vertical column in the first place, which remains to be seen), and timing the reactions perfectly (and quickly). If we go with your hypothesis, then somebody had to 'set off' these reactions (via what, remote control?) that had been installed in the building, right? So how is it that the planes can smash into the Towers, sever critical columns, set off massive fires, and NOT disrupt/destroy this mechanism? How could it remain intact?


4. How any of this was installed, what mechanism would be used

What am I, the guy who installed it? If you sincerely want to know (you don't) get Marvin Bush on the witness stand, his company held the security contract, and ask him for the logs to the building.

First, here's a little summary of the attempted 'Marvin Bush' did it myth.

Stratesec

Second, you're the one trying to claim that thermite was used to accomplish this (along with some mysterious, quiet-yet-powerful explosions), instead of the scientific claims I have previously given (and pointed you to). My explanation has a mechanism, so I'm asking you what yours is. Since it would involve hundreds (at least) of points where the thermite would have to sever the columns to make the collapse 'look like' it was gravity-driven from the top down, in perfect succession, then that requires some mechanical explanation first, and then some idea of how they were able to install all of this stuff in working office buildings, without anyone noticing. To get to these critical columns would require the removal of sheetrock and other building materials, on every floor of the building. Any records of this type of complete renovation happening? Any 'thermite cutters' found in the rubble? These are the things your hypothesis has to explain.


5. How much thermite would be needed to accomplish this

Beats me, ask the demolitions expert below, they're the ones that use it.

The point is that it takes a lot of thermite to burn through even a small area (we can both post videos, if you wish). If it was used in hundreds of areas along the vertical columns to burn through, then the stuff would naturally be all over the place. It wouldn't show up in 'trace amounts', as Steven Jones put it, it would be freaking everywhere. It's a really messy, and inefficient material for cutting through metal. But I'll move on to your video.


6. A single example of thermite ever being used to demolish a skyscraper, after saying it's 'old hat in demolitions'

If I have to show you this video one more time after this I'll vomit. Can you see the demolition expert telling you how it is used? I'm bookmarking this page for later so don't play dumb anymore. Why don't you try actually watching the video? I watched yours, that's basic respect.

YouTube - ‪9/11 CONSPIRACY:WERE THERMITE SHAPE CHARGES USED AT THE WTC?‬‏

Did you watch your own video? The guy at the end is talking about shape charges (explosives), not thermite. The woman doing the voice-over says, 'WAS thermite used with a shape charge?', speculating on the idea. Then it goes back to the demolitions guy, who isn't talking about thermite AT ALL. He's talking about a shape charge, which takes us back to explosions again. It has nothing to do with thermite, so I can't believe you think this even addresses my question, or explains anything about the collapses. No explosions, no shape charges.

And the video starts with pictures of beams that had been cut during cleanup, with an oxyacetylene torch. Here's another picture of that being done, days/weeks after the collapses.

The makers of the video have taken pictures of beams cut during cleanup, and tried to get us to believe that it happened prior to the collapse. They're either completely ignorant of their own mistake, or intentionally dishonest. At any rate, that's obviously a false assertion. I assume you won't try to use that video again, in light of this.


Also, still asking (this is at least the 6th time now) for you to answer the question, 'Why did the 2nd building to be hit collapse FIRST?'.

This confirms even more that it was a demolition, because the building burning longer should have gone first, and it doesn't matter where it was hit, which is how you are trying to prove your magic show that 10 floors or 30 floors pushed down and made the collapse. You are forgetting about the 80-90 stories of 35,000 tons of vertical steel, continuous beams pushing up, it's called static resistance. Steel doesn't just roll down on itself. Also the reason those floors are on top is that they are the lightest, or you are a lousy engineer.

That 'magic' you're referring to is basic physics. Static resistance is simply the weight of the building when the structure is intact. Once critical columns were severed at the impact points, the structural integrity was compromised, and parts of the structure started bearing more load than they were designed for. As the fires burned, and weakened the steel in those areas, the structure failed at the impact points, and the upper block came crashing down on the lower portion...this is not 'static force', and that's why you don't understand how the collapses happened. So the extra mass over the impact point is what caused the second tower to be hit to collapse FIRST. You still didn't answer the question, given your hypothesis of a controlled demolition...did the demolition team just accidentally detonate the wrong building first, then?

So far, your hypothesis isn't explaining anything at all, and I have an explanation for everything we observed in the collapses. It's one supported by science, not only the NIST report, but multiple peer-reviewed papers. If a YouTube video that misrepresents beams cut during cleanup with an oxyacetylene torch as having been done by thermite, prior to the collapses, is the alternative...then only one explanation exists as of yet.

We'll see how you deal with these issues going forward. I will be back to respond to your newer questions, so if you wish, no need to address my current response until I've fulfilled my part of the bargain.


Btodd

 

[Btodd]

right out of the gate, your completely in error the explosions were not silent, and hundreds of eyewitnesses have confirmed these explosions. you just keep denying that they ever happened, when someone post utube live video of that day of people telling about the explosions, you act as if it never happened. nobody should answer you anymore because you obviously have your own agenda

Watch a controlled demolition, and get back to me.

There is no way that a force '5 times that of a normal detonation', and one that supposedly ejected steel beams at 70mph, was only heard by a handful of people inside the building.

If you want to pretend otherwise, then that's your right, but that's all it is...pretending.

Another thing to remember is that the word 'explosion' does not mean 'controlled demolitions charge'. I can give you tons of fire-reports where people use that word, and see if you would like to say a controlled demolition happened in all of them because of it.


Btodd

 

[circa02]

2 points: I'm curious where people got the idea that thermite ALONE has been the only alternative explanation given. Also, for the people who say this 'truther nonsense' is going nowhere, that might be true if you weren't contributing to these threads.

 

[Btodd]

2 points: I'm curious where people got the idea that thermite ALONE has been the only alternative explanation given. Also, for the people who say this 'truther nonsense' is going nowhere, that might be true if you weren't contributing to these threads.

I think I state very early in the post that thermite was initially proposed because conspiracists couldn't account for the lack of sound that the supposed explosions would create, and that now they seem to have merged the explanations together, a la 'detonations PLUS thermite'. That appears to be ManFromUncle's route, too.

As to your second question, I still make attempts to reach people, and ManFromUncle isn't my sole intended audience here. We finally got to the heart of the matter in comparing explanations, so I'm happy to compare the two. If you're truly interested in answers, then you shouldn't resent my efforts here.


Btodd

 

[Btodd]

I have to separate this into two posts, since there's a character limit. Part 1:

And now about that respect, I've answered your questions (or did u forget already? Look up so address mine please. Most important the last, are you in favor of the former Assistant Deputy Secretary of State Dr. Steve Pieczenik getting his hearing, under oath, to say the name of general on Wolfowitz's staff who told him 911 was an inside job, under penalty of perjury, and if he lies we can send him to jail? Because if we can agree on that we can work to get the hearing, and of course you're betting he's lying and I'm betting he's not, but that's ok. I'll accept the outcome. We can unite on this if you like.

I have no problem with him giving testimony at all; I'm not out to stifle anyone from speaking. Let him get up there, take his oath, and testify. But let's be honest about what he's saying his testimony is...'a top general told me so'. We'll see what happens with him, but my prediction is that he will never do anything other than appear on the Alex Jones show, or something equally ridiculous. I guess we'll see.

I won't get into him further unless you really want me to, but some of his other claims are highly suspect. But again...he's welcome to make his case as far as I'm concerned.

How likely do you find it that two of the planes nearly collided over Stewart AFB, as reported by USA Today? Or how the flight paths hugged the airspace of military bases?

The first thing I will note is that from the very same article you're getting this information, he talks about how the planes have been hijacked, and that they listened to the hijacker threaten the pilot once the pilot had activated his push-to-talk microphone.

The controller noticed American Flight 11 was having difficulties when its transponder, the device that sends an electrical radar pulse to air traffic control centers, shut off, the employee said. At that point, the plane veered from its course, the employee said.

Soon after, the controller realized a hijacker stood in the cockpit when the plane's captain, John Ogonowski of Dracut, Mass., turned on his microphone, the employee said.

The pilot was apparently triggering a "push-to-talk button" on the aircraft's steering wheel, a feature that enables pilots to have their hands on the controls while communicating, another employee told The Christian Science Monitor. That let controllers hear much of what was said and other cockpit noises.

"The button was being pushed intermittently most of the way to New York," the employee said. "He wanted us to know something was wrong. When he pushed the button and the terrorist spoke, we knew. There was this voice that was threatening the pilot, and it was clearly threatening."
Through the radio connection, the controller heard someone instruct, "'Nobody do anything stupid"' and no one would get hurt, the employee said. The controller heard no more conversations, The Telegraph reported.


So, if we're going to accept this article, then we've established that the planes were hijacked. Correct?


Now, assuming his other claim is correct, that they 'nearly crashed into each other', I don't see why this is any damning evidence of a conspiracy by the government. Would you like to elaborate? In normal flights, the FAA schedules these things and tracks them so that risk is minimized; but if two planes have been hijacked and aren't aware of each other's immediate location, they can very well cross paths and almost collide. What are the odds? Well, they might be small, but I don't see how it's any damning evidence that the government did it. If they did, why would the government nearly collide the two planes necessary for their evil plot? It doesn't make any sense for your story.

Flight paths:

From USA Today:

The two hijacked jets that demolished the World Trade Center nearly crashed into each other while heading to their target, according to a Federal Aviation Administration employee at a regional control center. “The two aircraft got too close to each other down by Stewart International Airport in New Windsor, N.Y., about 55 miles north of New York City, the employee told The Telegraph of Nashua.USA Today: FAA Employee: Hijacked jets almost collided

More about flight paths here:
The Memory Hole > Map: Hijacked 9/11 Flights and Military Bases

Your second link is merely a single map, and the link to how that was established (shown on the page), is a faulty link (I get a '403 error'). It goes nowhere. They don't explain how the map was even figured, so it's merely a map on a page, and has no actual data supplied that I can check to see if it's accurate. If you have a different link, I'll be happy to look at it...but since you require detailed descriptions of the official story, I also require detailed descriptions of the supposed conspiracy.

Once again,remote control of the planes is old technology. Controllers at Creech AFB in Nevada fly remote control drones over Afghanistan a hundred times a day. This is true even of very large planes. One of the largest is the Global Hawk pictured below:

The inventor of remote control technology which allowed ground controllers to seize control of hijacked planes (did you get that?)

I don't see any reason to assume the planes were remote-control flown yet, and perhaps you will elaborate why that's necessary to explain the events of the day, since we've already established (If I'm to accept your USA Today article) that they were hijacked. Are you actually suggesting that real hijackers took over the plane, and THEN the government further hijacked them via remote-control, to do what the hijackers intended to do in the first place?

happened to be Dov Zakheim, who was also Comptroller of the Pentagon at the time the $2.3 TRILLION was announced missing..

I think oldbetang has asked you to respond to his question on this repeatedly, and I haven't yet seen one. That's much, much larger than the budget itself, so an explanation is definitely necessary.

Zakheim was also a member of the Project for a New American Century,the "Neo-cons" who wound up running Bush's foreign policy and dreamed of overthrowing Saddam by force for a decade. PNAC wrote of this goal being elusive absent a "new Pearl Harbor." Zakheim is speculated by some to be the mastermind behind 911, and comes from a family of Middle East terrorists in Irgun.

Stating that a huge terrorist attack would be a necessary element to starting a war like that is not evidence that any event that happened was staged to that end. There had already been the attempted bombing in 1993, and we knew full-well that Al Qaeda had plans to attack us on a grand scale, and would attempt it again. If this were to make much sense, then we would have framed Iraq instead of Al Qaeda, and at least 'planted' WMD's in Iraq instead of saying they were there and then ending up looking like fools once we didn't find them. This is another area where the supposed conspiracy makes no sense whatsoever.

In October 2001, the government was caught lying that it had the technology to override control of a commercial aircraft from the ground, to foil hijackers and guide the plane in for a landing.

LINK: October 2, 2001: Remote Controlled Passenger Airplane Flew Before 9/11, Despite Claims to the Contrary (HistoryCommons.org)


A Raytheon 727 lands in New Mexico in August, 2001. [Source: Associated Press] It is reported that the US company Raytheon landed a 727 six times in a military base in New Mexico without any pilots on board. This was done to test equipment making future hijackings more difficult, by allowing ground control to take over the flying of a hijacked plane. [Associated Press, 10/2/2001; Der Spiegel (Hamburg), 10/28/2001]

Wikipedia entry for Dov Zakheim:

"From 1987-2001, Zakheim was CEO of SPC International, a subsidiary of System Planning Corporation, a high-technology analytical firm...He was then appointed to be Undersecretary of Defense and Comptroller from 2001 to 2004 under the George W. Bush administration, and served in this capacity until April 2004.

Here is the marketing lit from Zakheim's SPC on the system which allows control of commercial planes to be seized from the ground.

SPC description of Flight Termination System (click on image):


The above document reads:


"Flight Termination System...System Planning Corporation's is proud to offer the Flight Termination System (FTS), a fully redundant turnkey range safety and test system for remote control and flight termination of airborne test vehicles."


Zakheim also in early 2001 sent at least 32 767s (the kind which hit the towers) to MacDill AFB in FLA to be refitted as tankers. He was Comproller of the Pentagon.

Again, even if I grant all of this technology as being true and existing before 9/11, you haven't given good reason to believe it happened on 9/11, especially since the initial article you appealed to established that the planes had been hijacked. It makes no sense for the conspiracy at all.

Now here's the question, yes or no, does this pattern establish "means and opportunity," again since we can dismiss the official conspiracy miracle show of 19 guys with box cutters.

Means and opportunity are pretty easy to establish, for multiple suspects. Al Qaeda had means and opportunity, and we've established that the planes had been hijacked. There's no need to appeal to an extra hijacking by government remote-control. If you want to elaborate on what you mean by 'miracle show of 19 guys with box cutters', I will be happy to respond...suffice to say, your personal incredulity doesn't count as an argument against the facts yet.

(continued below)

 

[Btodd]

(continued from above)

Project for New American Century has been wanting to re-make the map of the Middle East by force for years. Any American worth his or her salt needs to know about Project for New American Century. The top suspects for 911, according to former Assistant Deputy Secretary of State Dr. Steve Pieczenik, are the same people in the Bush administration who have wanted to invade Iraq all along, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Pentagon Comptroller Dov Zakheim, Elliot Abrams, etc. In 1996 an important policy paper was written for Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu called: "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm" Which advised:

"Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing, and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right as a means of foiling Syria's regional ambitions."
​

Who were the authors of this paper? The people who later became George Bush's foreign policy team, and members of Project for a New American Century, including Richard Perle and Douglas Feith.

Does this not establish motive? When a criminal investigator has motive, means and opportunity, he opens a case.

This would merely establish that they wanted to go to war in Iraq. That does not establish that 9/11, which was attributed to Al Qaeda, was a necessary component for going to Iraq. Why not simply frame Iraq in the first place, then? Why use what Al Qaeda did, and then go non-sequitur by trying to equate them with Iraq, and even end up looking like idiots because we found no WMD's? This doesn't make any sense at all. I was (and still am) against the Iraq War...it had nothing to do with 9/11, and it's a poor excuse for a 'smoking gun' that 9/11 was an inside job.

Why did Dick Cheney fail to order the plane coming into the Pentagon shot down, despite ample opportunity? This is from testimony by Norman Panetta to the 911 Commission.

The plane hadn't reached the hijacked aircraft, it was a shoot-down order, not a stand-down. If you really want to get into the details of that conversation, I will make it very clear how it only makes sense in light of that fact. The very fact that the 'assistant' is asking Cheney if the 'order still stands' is obvious...he has to know if they're really going to shoot down a passenger airliner! That's a very serious thing to do. If you think it's a stand-down, then what is some low-level assistant doing in on the conspiracy, and asking Dick Cheney if he's changed his mind about it at the last second? Again, your angle makes no sense.

I snipped the last part, because it involves the supposed testimony we talked about at the start of your post, and I commented on that already. I look forward to your dealing with my previous post about thermite/demolitions, and if you want me to elaborate on anything in this post regarding your questions, just ask and I will do so.


Btodd