What holds the Atom together?

[tacoman528]

We know that an atom is composed of protons and electrons. If the protons are positive and the electrons are negative, then what keeps the electrons from crashing into the positively charged nucleus. If the nucleus is completely made of positive material, what holds it together? Wouldn't it fly apart because of the like charges. We know that gluons don't because they have never been observed or measured. How would they hold the atoms together anyway, no force is really strong enough to keep electrons away from the nucleus or to keep the nucleus together. That is, except the power of god.

Check out this verse...Colossians 1:17

also John 1:3

 

[Tenek]

Somebody's been reading Chick Tracts again...

1) Electrons aren't pulled into the nucleus... hmmm... well, classical mechanics would have them in circular motion around the nucleus in the same manner that that Moon orbits the Earth.

2) The nucleus is held together by the strong nuclear force, which is about 100 times stronger than the elecromagnetic repulsion of the protons, theoretical exchange particle being the gluon.

Somehow I don't think that God is going to create a universe so flawed that it needs His constant, omnipresent intervention to avoid completely dissolving.

 

[Arikay]

Well instead of making an assumption, I took a quick walk on the web, and I found this:

What holds an atom together:
http://www.svsu.edu/~slaven/atom/atom2.html
and its root page: http://www.svsu.edu/~slaven/atom/

It linked to this:
http://www.svsu.edu/~slaven/micro/index.html

I also found this:
http://www.sciam.com/askexpert_question.cfm?articleID=0007955E-3D93-1C71-84A9809EC588EF21

 

[Nathan Poe]

Somebody's been reading Jack Chick's "Big Daddy" tract and repeated it verbatim.

Chick: Bad artwork, Bad theology, worse science.

C'mon taco, try an original thought.

 

[David Gould]

I think Chick is chic - the Stan Lee of Christian comics. I mean, everyone knows he is not serious don't they?

 

[tacoman528]

Seems like a pretty good arguement to me. Like I said, gluons have never been observed, measured, or proven to exist. They were made up by Athiests to try to explain the phenomina of why the nuclei stay together. Gluons do not exist.

Tenek, you need to have paid more attention in Chemistry. A man named Rutherford thought the same as you do. But another man named Neils Bohr proved Rutherford wrong because of the orbitals and the behavior of electrons in their energy levels. Electrons do not follow a single path around the atom. They actually jump randomly around the atom, trying in vain to fill the positively charged atmosphere around the nucleus.

Try again

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by tacoman528
Seems like a pretty good arguement to me. Like I said, gluons have never been observed, measured, or proven to exist. They were made up by Athiests to try to explain the phenomina of why the nuclei stay together. Gluons do not exist.

Tenek, you need to have paid more attention in Chemistry. A man named Rutherford thought the same as you do. But another man named Neils Bohr proved Rutherford wrong because of the orbitals and the behavior of electrons in their energy levels. Electrons do not follow a single path around the atom. They actually jump randomly around the atom, trying in vain to fill the positively charged atmosphere around the nucleus.

Try again

Gluons have never been proven to exist.

Electrons have never been proven to exist.

Neither have leopards.

 

As to Bohr, you are correct. Quantum mechanics explains why the atom does not collapse. No need for God to hold on to anything.

 

[tacoman528]

And why, may I ask, do you think the atom does not collapse or the nucleus doesn't fly apart

 

[Jerry Smith]

Gluons have never been proven to exist.

Electrons have never been proven to exist.

Neither have leopards.

Ergo, leopards hold the nuclei of atoms together.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by tacoman528
And why, may I ask, do you think the atom does not collapse or the nucleus doesn't fly apart

I believe that to be the case because atoms appear to exist, and hold their form. I do not currently have a very good understanding of nuclear forces, and hope never to need one.

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by tacoman528
And why, may I ask, do you think the atom does not collapse or the nucleus doesn't fly apart

The nucleus does not fly apart because of the strong nuclear force. There is a huge amount of energy locked into the nucleus of an atom - this is where the energy for nuclear reactors and bombs is obtained. This energy keeps protons and neutrons from flying apart.

The reasons why the atom does not collapse are comlicated. This whole question is what lead to the development of quantum physics in the first place.

The problem was that according to classical mechanics combined with Maxwell's laws on electronmagneticm the electron should spiral in towards the nucleus in a very short order.

The fact that this did not happen demonstrated that classical mechanics must be wrong in some fashion.

Quantum mechanics developed in this gap.

It is the most successfully tested theory in scientific history. It has solved the problem of the atom collapsing. As to the specific details, I am not a physicist so I cannot tell you, although I would recommend you read some popular physics books on quantum mechanics.

 

[Jerry Smith]

LOL. I love this thread. I suppose that radioactive decay comes from God getting the hiccups. (Or maybe leopards?). Since obviously Z particles haven't been "proven" either... This is fun. Who's next?

LOL better yet - nuclear fission a la Hiroshima... is that the use of tiny little levers to pry God's fingers apart?

 

[Arikay]

"Made up by Atheists"?

Why do atheists always get the blame?

And how come because something hasnt been proven by science is it automatically gods doing?

Originally posted by tacoman528
Seems like a pretty good arguement to me. Like I said, gluons have never been observed, measured, or proven to exist. They were made up by Athiests to try to explain the phenomina of why the nuclei stay together. Gluons do not exist.

Tenek, you need to have paid more attention in Chemistry. A man named Rutherford thought the same as you do. But another man named Neils Bohr proved Rutherford wrong because of the orbitals and the behavior of electrons in their energy levels. Electrons do not follow a single path around the atom. They actually jump randomly around the atom, trying in vain to fill the positively charged atmosphere around the nucleus.

Try again

 

[tacoman528]

So you're saying it does, because it does. Doesn't sound too scientific to me.

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by Jerry Smith
LOL. I love this thread. I suppose that radioactive decay comes from God getting the hiccups. (Or maybe leopards?). Since obviously Z particles haven't been "proven" either... This is fun. Who's next?

Leopards were what led to the development of Relativity. They run very fast relative to trees, and make trees look as though they are going backwards in time.

Leopards sure are important.

It's probably about time we worked out a way of proving they exist.

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by tacoman528
So you're saying it does, because it does. Doesn't sound too scientific to me.

No, I said that quantum mechanics explains it. Read up on quantum mechanics and you will find your answer. Don't expect it to be an easy one to understand, though.

 

What about the nucleus? Do you think that God "lets go" whenever humans want to set off a nuclear bomb?

Or do you think that maybe - just maybe - humans have found what holds the atom together and are able to release it? 

 

[Tenek]

Originally posted by tacoman528
Seems like a pretty good arguement to me. Like I said, gluons have never been observed, measured, or proven to exist. They were made up by Athiests to try to explain the phenomina of why the nuclei stay together. Gluons do not exist.

Tenek, you need to have paid more attention in Chemistry. A man named Rutherford thought the same as you do. But another man named Neils Bohr proved Rutherford wrong because of the orbitals and the behavior of electrons in their energy levels. Electrons do not follow a single path around the atom. They actually jump randomly around the atom, trying in vain to fill the positively charged atmosphere around the nucleus.

Try again

"Gluons do not exist"

"Subatomic particles do not exist"

"Atoms do not exist"

"Molecules do not exist"

Just because you haven't proved it exists doesn't mean that it doesn't. *Something* is doing it. Might as well call it a gluon.

Note that I said "according to classical mechanics". I could tell you about probability clouds but that's not really the point. I don't know how it works, but a) it does and b) I'm fairly sure that God has nothing to do with it.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by tacoman528
So you're saying it does, because it does. Doesn't sound too scientific to me.

No, I'm saying I believe it to be the case, because I do not appear to be either collapsing to a point or expanding as a cloud of dust. I don't know *why* it's the case - yet - but so what? It's obviously true, and I have no idea how to go about answering the question of "why".

 

[David Gould]

Classical physics tells us that if we think of an atom as a miniature solar system with electronic planets orbiting a nuclear sun, then it should not exist. The circling electrons SHOULD RADIATE AWAY their energy like microscopic radio antennas and spiral into the nucleus. To resolve this problem, physicists had to introduce a set of mathematical rules, called quantum mechanics, to describe what happens. Quantum theory endows matter and energy with both wave and particle-like characteristics. It also restrains electrons to particular orbits, or energy levels, so they cannot radiate energy unless they jump from one orbit to another.

Measuring the spectral lines of atoms verifies that quantum theory is correct. Atoms appear to emit or absorb packets of light, or photons, with a wavelength that exactly coincides with the difference between its energy levels as predicted by quantum theory.

taken from this: http://www.harmonology.com.au/Puthoff.html

It goes on to explain that this answer does not convince people because they want to know WHY in quantum mechanics the atom does not radiate away energy.

But then it shows that even this question looks as though it is about to be answered.

 

I should add that your initial question seemed to indicate that the positive force of the proton would drag the electron in to the nucleus, and collapse the atom that way. That is not what would happen - we do not crash into the sun even though we are attracted to the sun by gravity.

The "collapse of the atom" that ended the classical model was all to do with the Maxwell's laws of electromagnetism.

 

[tacoman528]

None of you seem to know the answer. So I will have to properly inform you. If anyone here thinks they know the answer, then say it. In Colossians 1:17, it says that Jesus holds all things together. Its the only thing that makes sense. Think about it. You don't know the answer, yet the answer is before you. It is Jesus that holds everything together. I've given you my answer which is completely logical. For some of you, the best answer I've heard yet is, "Nothing Exists at all."

C'mon, people