1 Timothy 4:3

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What did Y'SHUA do? and the Apostles? and the disciples ?
Honored YHWH.
Kept 7th Day Sabbath.

 

[Soyeong]

Incorrect, Soyeong. Those who demand everyone worship on Saturday - the Sabbath - are Pharisees, more accurately Judaizers who desire to remove Grace and reinstate Mosaic Law.

If anyone here were saying that we you need to obey God's commands according to their traditions in order to be saved, then you would be correct that they would be like the Pharisees, but that still wouldn't mean what I said was incorrect about people who set aside the commands of God to follow their traditions also being like Pharisees. However, there continues to be a world of difference between saying that and saying that we should obey God's commands in order to demonstrate our love for Him, in order to demonstrate our faith in Him about how we should live, because disobedience to His commands is sin, and because repentance from what God has revealed to be sin is a central part of the gospel message.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

What did Y'SHUA do? and the Apostles? and the disciples ?

The matter has been discussed, decided, adjudicated and dismissed from consideration nearly 2,000 years ago. See Acts 15:1 to 35 for details. If you cannot understand the passage and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, nothing I can write will make it any clearer to you.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

If anyone here were saying that we you need to obey God's commands according to their traditions...

The matter has been discussed, decided, adjudicated and dismissed from consideration nearly 2,000 years ago. See Acts 15:1 to 35 for details. If you cannot understand the passage and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, nothing I can write will make it any clearer to you.

 

[Soyeong]

The matter has been discussed, decided, adjudicated and dismissed from consideration nearly 2,000 years ago. See Acts 15:1 to 35 for details. If you cannot understand the passage and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, nothing I can write will make it any clearer to you.

I am in agreement with Acts 15, so as far as I can tell, you are arguing against a position that no one here holds. Nowhere does the Bible require obedience to any of God's commands in order to become saved, so it does not follow that because we shouldn't obey God's commands for a purpose for which they were never given that therefore we shouldn't obey them for the purposes for which they were given.

 

[giftofGod2]

It doesn't matter what day you choose as your sabbath. That is the least of God's concerns. Ideas to the contrary make God seem superficial and shallow.

As a believer, if you hold one day above another, be fully convinced in your own mind on the issue. Or, if you esteem every day alike, be fully convinced in your own mind (see Romans 14).

Many believers hold that Jesus is the fulfillment of the sabbath principle, in that our sabbath rest is in Him (see Matthew 11:28-30, meditate on Hebrews 4, Colossians 2:16-17).

If someone thinks that they ought to set Saturday or Sunday aside as a special day to honour God, I do not judge him. I myself hold every day alike, and of course, I love being in fellowship on Sunday and on Wedenesday Nights.

 

[giftofGod2]

So you're reading that statement as TWO different statements; the 'pass away' being one condition and the 'all is fulfilled' being a second condition. And of course, ignoring Jesus' statement in the prior sentence where Jesus says He will fulfill all.

No; I'm reading the two statements as meaning the same thing. All will not be fufilled until heaven and earth pass away; therefore not one jot or one tittle has passed away from the law. Watch out for spiritual blindness; because you fail to see this I see it in you.

The law is still in effect for unbelievers. Fair enough, and as mentioned in other places, no one is saved by following the law.

The second phrase in your last statement is indeed what I've been saying all along. As Christians, we are not bound to the Mosaic Law.

To both statements, agreed.

Reading the entire paragraph, (Romans 3:27-31) Paul is explaining why we do not perform according to the Mosaic Law. We are NOT justified through works - like following the Mosaic Law in order to please God - but rather by faith. The 'law' we establish is the New Covenant, the law of faith in God through Jesus Christ; not the law of works by Moses.

I have a feeling you will not be satisfied herein, either.

You are right; because you are wrong.

(in Romans chapter 3: ) Yes, the law of faith is mentioned; but verse 31 is spoken in contrast to verse 28: and therefore I certainly believe that we establish the law of Moses primarily for the reason that "by the law is the knowledge of sin" (verse 20). People need to understand that they are sinners in need of a Saviour; so we establlish the law (even of Moses).

No one will take a remedy for a disease that goes in hard unless they first understand the severity of their disease.

 

[rob_aston]

which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving

your thoughts and attitudes of the heart are weighed by your Heavenly Father, do what you decide for Jesus' grace is sufficient for you.

 

[Soyeong]

It doesn't matter what day you choose as your sabbath. That is the least of God's concerns. Ideas to the contrary make God seem superficial and shallow.

As a believer, if you hold one day above another, be fully convinced in your own mind on the issue. Or, if you esteem every day alike, be fully convinced in your own mind (see Romans 14).

Many believers hold that Jesus is the fulfillment of the sabbath principle, in that our sabbath rest is in Him (see Matthew 11:28-30, meditate on Hebrews 4, Colossians 2:16-17).

If someone thinks that they ought to set Saturday or Sunday aside as a special day to honour God, I do not judge him. I myself hold every day alike, and of course, I love being in fellowship on Sunday and on Wedenesday Nights.

Do you think that God would have been pleased if the builders of the temple had decided that what God really wanted was a temple so they could build it in whatever way chose? Should our attitude be that we can worship God in whatever way we choose and God is superficial if He is not pleased with what He gets? Should we expect a wife be pleased if her husband got her a gift that he would be happy with receiving rather than what she asked for? How much more should we not expect God to be pleased if we were to treat Him in that way? God gave spefic commands to His people because He wanted His people to worship Him in specific ways and He told His people not to worship Him in the same way as the pagans worshipped their gods because He does not want to be worshipped in other specific ways, so our attitude should be to seek to worship God in the way that He wants to be worshipped.

In regard to Romans 14, the topic is about whether to heed man's opinions not whether to heed God's commands. In verses 4-5, it is eating or abstaining from eating, so esteeming certain days is in regard to fasting as a matter of opinion, not in regard to obeying God's commands to keep the Sabbath. We are not to keep the Sabbath because we esteem it, but because God esteemed it, blessed it, declared it to be holy, and commanded His people to keep it. Where God's word gives a clear command, then human opinion must yield, but where God's word is not clear, only then should each be convinced in their own mind. What is holy to God should be holy to us, so there is nothing wrong with having fellowship on other nights of the week unless that keeps you from obeying God. We should not set aside the commands of God in order to follow our own traditions.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Back to the OP, I think there is ample historical evidence to show that Paul's prophecy was fulfilled.

 

[giftofGod2]

Actually Soyeong, I do hold Saturday above other days although I don't specificaly set it aside to worship the Lord. I worship on Sunday and Wednesday (and every day); I tend to rest more on Saturday. And when I have a job, I tend to ask for Saturdays off. Most employers respect that, understanding that they are getting a better employee because I hold to religious principles.

Because I am not working right now except for the ministry God has provided, I really tend to rest every day; because the labour of love that I am involved in is not burdensome, therefore to me, it is the same as resting. And if I rest every day I am alive, do I really need to set aside a specific day to rest even more? Jesus said that God made the sabbath for man and not man for the sabbath. (Mark 2:27) It was given because He knew that man would work himself to death unless he was specifically told to rest as God did after doing all His work. And Jesus also said in John 5:17, My Father worketh hithero, and I work. So God took up work again after He rested, although technically it has always been the seventh day ever since the finishing of the Creation. And therefore God is both resting and working; He is taking His time and also making it a fun time of making sure that His elect enter in through the narrow gate. His work of redemption, to God, is a recreational activity though He puts His heart and soul into it and will exert much effort in apprehending anyone He desires to redeem.

 

[giftofGod2]

In Romans 14, Paul and the Holy Spirit are dealing with two subjects that are of a similar nature, both having to do with legalism.

One of those subjects is that some people will have qualms of conscience about eating certain kinds of foods; others will have qualms of conscience about what day they give to God. I'm certain that the Holy Spirit foresaw the division that would take place as the result of such things and also the disobedience to Jesus' command of "Judge not, lest ye be judged." (Matthew 7:1). Since God wants unity to be among people over one thing and one thing only: the gospel, which is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4); He has now said that such things as the kinds of foods that we eat or what day we worship on are highly peripheral issues that have nothing to do with salvation.

If you want to continue to argue on the subject I will continue to receive you but this discussion is basically over because I am exhorted in Romans 14:1 to receive you but not to doubtful disputations; and in context it is disputations concerning these types of things. I may even stop eating sausage McMuffins because of all of this, but I also know that no one is condemned for eating a sausage McMuffin unless their conscience is destroyed by the action. Which is something that all of this might even produce.