1 Timothy 4:3

[Kenny'sID]

I fail to see your point. The Law of Moses was given to keep the Israelites from continuing in idolatry, spiritual adultery. It was given because of transgression.

So God told Noah, who had never eaten meat, that he and his posterity could eat meat that was harmful to them,....Abraham and Issac?

Which of the Ten Commandments was allowed, before they were given, but was not allowed later?

Which ones were not allowed? As far as I know there were no commandments before the commandments.

But, tell you what, let's dwell on the multiple wives thing...we both know it was allowed and then was not.

If you still fail to see my point, then you choose not too.

FWIW, I'll leave you with this, from which I gather God is not too fond of eating swine. Also it goes for everyone. Judge for yourself...seems to me God certainly will.

Please, just read it all and see what general idea you get from it :



King James Bible
Heaven is My Throne

Isaiah 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

2For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

3He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

4I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

5Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

6A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

Rejoice with Jerusalem

7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

9Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

10Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

11That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.

12For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.

13As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

14And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.

God's Final Judgments against the Wicked

15For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

16For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

17They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

18For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

To the original post.

Read 1 Timothy 4: 1 to 5, the whole paragraph. The meaning is much clearer that way.

The paragraph is advising Timothy to steer clear of those who want to add requirements onto faith and adherence to Jesus. The 'legalists', who want to put all Christians under the tyranny of a 'check-off list' of what to do and what to avoid.

They're still around.

 

[Job8]

So what does this verse really mean?

While the word could mean food, in the context of what is known of dietary restrictions in Scripture, it applies to meats.

In the Old Testament the meats of certain "unclean" animals were forbidden to the Jews. However, that restriction has been removed in the New Testament, so Paul is revealing here that all meats are accepted when sanctified by prayer and thanksgiving. Therefore those who insist on certain meats being unclean today are in violation of New Testament teaching. In fact Paul takes it one step further and says that that is a doctrine of demons. Why? Because Christians are not sanctified by dietary observances, but by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

When the Lord Jesus Christ ruled that it is not what goes into a person that defiles him, but what comes out of him, it covered "unclean" meats also. Furthermore, the application of the law of Moses was restricted to two dietary commandments in Acts 15 -- the consumption of blood, and the consumption of meat from strangled animals (which retained the blood). This goes back to the covenant with Noah.

 

[giftofGod2]

@Job8

How does Matthew 5:17-20 play into what you have said?

It seems to me that to be great in the kingdom, one must keep and teach even the least of the Old Testament requirements. Would that not include dietary and sabbath laws?

 

[Archie the Preacher]

How does Matthew 5:17-20 play into what you have said?

One should read the entire passage. I direct your attention to the qualifying phrase at the end of verse 18. How does John 19:30 play into what Jesus said?

It seems to me that to be great in the kingdom, one must keep and teach even the least of the Old Testament requirements. Would that not include dietary and sabbath laws?

Asked, answered and discounted roughly 2,000 years ago in Acts 15.

 

[giftofGod2]

@Archie the Preacher

Heaven and earth have not passed away.

And Matthew 5:17-20 is still scripture, and scripture does not nullify scripture, therefore Acts 15 wil not succeed at nullifying Matthew 5:17-20.

It may take some meditation on the word to discover how the greatest in the kingdom will obey and teach the least of the OT commandments; while at the same time Gentiles are not required to keep the law.

One might say that for the Christian (whether Gentile or Jew), obedience to the law is not accompllished as obedience to a requirement, but is rather the supernatural outworking of being spiritually minded (Romans 8:7).

 

[Archie the Preacher]

gift, believe whatever you want.

 

[giftofGod2]

@Archie the Preacher,

I am interested in the input of others though (and your input also).

I was really hoping for an answer, as personally I believe that as a Christian, I am not under the law, am dead to the law, and am delivered from the law.

Don't give up on people so easily, Archie.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

I am interested in the input of others though (and your input also).

May I inform you that you do a very good job convincing me to the contrary.

I was really hoping for an answer, as personally I believe that as a Christian, I am not under the law, am dead to the law, and am delivered from the law.

I did give you not just an answer, but THE answer. It seems you dismissed it without thought.

Don't give up on people so easily, Archie.

In fact, I consigned you to God; knowing that in His wisdom, someone else might make more headway with you. Perhaps you shouldn't act so ignorant and recalcitrant.

 

[giftofGod2]

May I inform you that you do a very good job convincing me to the contrary.

I think you must have me mistaken with someone else. Wherein have I convinced you that I am not interested in your opinion? Simply because I did not agree with you outright? Please...have better candor than this.

I did give you not just an answer, but THE answer. It seems you dismissed it without thought.

No, I did not dismiss your answer without a thought. I considered it and integrated it into my theology. btw, I was one of the ones at grace-centered forums that always contended for such things as you think you are contending for now (though you seem to have given up without much thought), and I will continue to contend for them. But if I take the opposite point of view in order to get you to think a little better, am I therefore become your enemy?

In fact, I consigned you to God; knowing that in His wisdom, someone else might make more headway with you. Perhaps you shouldn't act so ignorant and recalcitrant.

This is practically our first encounter and already you've handed me over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. I think that the scripture rightly says that "he who hastens with his feet sinneth..."

But really, the only reason why I believe you did not want to continue the discussion is because you don't have an answer. How's that for "recalcitrant"?

 

[Archie the Preacher]

I think you must have me mistaken with someone else. Wherein have I convinced you that I am not interested in your opinion? Simply because I did not agree with you outright?

No, because you merely repeated the same old thing and dismissed my answer without a thought.

Please...have better candor than this.

Okay. You as well, then.

No, I did not dismiss your answer without a thought. I considered it and integrated it into my theology.

You fooled me. I think I said that already.

... as you think you are contending for now (though you seem to have given up without much thought)...

Your perception. In fact, I've encountered so many non-thinkers on this forum who will not change their minds for any reason, I've just resigned myself to not being the one to change their minds.

In reality, it is the Holy Spirit who 'changes minds' by conviction; not my brilliance (or attempt).

But if I take the opposite point of view in order to get you to think a little better, am I therefore become your enemy?

Point taken, however, you showed every sign of simply rejecting my answer because you don't agree.

This is practically our first encounter and already you've handed me over to satan for the destruction of the flesh.

Really. I thought I said I left you to God for someone else to sort, convince, explain; not Satan.

I think that the scripture rightly says that "he who hastens with his feet sinneth..."

Scripture also says "Do not give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs; otherwise they will trample them under their feet and turn around and tear you to pieces."

Okay, we've both shown we can quote Scripture. Shall we proceed?

But really, the only reason why I believe you did not want to continue the discussion is because you don't have an answer. How's that for "recalcitrant"?

That's interesting. I did give you an answer. The one you said you didn't discard without thought. But NOW you don't remember me giving you an answer.

I think the reason you can't remember the answer is you don't can't deal with the consequences.

I will respond if you want to actually continue and not play those sort of games.

 

[giftofGod2]

My friend, Archie the Preacher,

I just want to say that you come off as kind of rude.

The thing you did not answer was what I posted in reply #106.

But I can do the same as you, and just say that I will consign you to God because I generally don't like to deal with rude people.

If you will stop being rude, we can continue, if you will reply to reply #106. But I have to say that my heart is not in it anymore, I will just consign you to God.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

My friend, Archie the Preacher,

I see you as a friend as well, even though I do not agree with you some of the time.

I just want to say that you come off as kind of rude.

Believe it or not, that has been mentioned in casual conversations. I like to think I'm just direct and straightforward. In all fairness, I admit it is a minority view. I think I have a very low onset of Asperger's Syndrome. Oh, well.

The thing you did not answer was what I posted in reply #106.

I DID answer you, in #105. That was what you ignored.

Since you either cannot grasp it, did not notice or simply don't want to deal with it, I'll spell it out.

In Matthew 5:18, Jesus is recorded as saying "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass awaynot the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place." (In the KJV, "until all is finished".)

As I pointed out, when Jesus was crucified and He died, the penalty was paid and 'The Law' was 'finished'. Note Jesus said (John 19:30) - after telling the guards He was thirsty and taking a 'sip'(?) of sour wine - "It is completed!" That is, He accomplished what He came to do.

That is the answer. The statement in Matthew five no longer applies.

That is what you ignored.

If you wish to disagree and desire to hold the death of Jesus didn't end the Law, be my guest. And please understand, if you refuse to deal with me at all, you still have to justify your answer to that before God. No one - including you - answers to me.

 

[giftofGod2]

@Archie the Preacher

Like I said in reply#106, Heaven and earth have not passed away. Read the whole verse in Matthew 5:18. "Till all be fulfilled" is qualified by, "until heaven and earth pass away."

The law is still in effect for unbelievers, though if we are in Christ we are not under the law. As believers we do not make void the law but we establish the law (Romans 3:31).

Also, I just want to say that you couldn't have possibly given an answer to reply #106 in reply #105, as reply #106 was in response to reply #105 and reply #105 was also before reply#106 and so could not have been an answer to reply #106.

And for the record, I think that I also may have a low onset of cheeseburger's syndrome (love to eat 'em!).

 

[Berean777]

I am a little confused about this verse.
"Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth."

The word that was translated to "meats" actually means "food". So to me, it looks like this bible verse is saying not to tell people to abstain from certain foods. But what does that mean exactly?

I THINK the word "abstain" means to not let yourself do something, even if you feel like doing it.
Example: Someone wants to have a slice of pepperoni pizza, but they decide not to because they think they should eat something healthier instead. This person is abstaining from pepperoni pizza.

So what exactly does this verse mean? I don't think it means that I should eat all the junk food I want. That wouldn't be consistent with the bible telling us to take care of our bodies. Also, it would encourage gluttony.

So what does this verse really mean?

Let us quote these versus in question....

1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

If you look at the seriousness of the charge in the first verse, then you will need to understand that this teaching must be one that is institutionalised and not one that is simply elected by some and not others.

Paul is talking about the institutionalisation of abstaining from those things. Paul calls the heads of the religious institutions who make these rules as hypocritical liars.

If you look at evidence and consider certain religious institutions, you will discover that priests are forbidden to marry and are put on a special kosher diet.

Again Paul calls this act as moving away from the faith. Notice that when religious institutions made such policies for their hierarchy, they would also tell the congregation to abstain from meats on Wednesdays and Fridays. What would happen is a focus on an outward temple centred religious practice that is modelled to the Pharisical model that Jesus abandoned and made desolate.

We can easily eatablish that once a religious institution makes such policy, they are reinforcing an outward purifying concept similar to Judaism and by having people focus on an outward temple, they also make the worship extrinsic ally outward and dependent on the religious institution. Paul saw this coming and would highlight that such faith doesn't conform with the one that the Holy Spirit author's.

We see that as soon as members of the congregation teach that the Kingdom of God is in you and so is the living temple who is Jesus Christ, they are immediately met with opposition.

Paul is not so much appealing against a certain diet mindset, rather he is exposing the beginnings of a religious cult that has abandon the faith and followed deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

Serious charge indeed!

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Like I said in reply#106, Heaven and earth have not passed away. Read the whole verse in Matthew 5:18. "Till all be fulfilled" is qualified by, "until heaven and earth pass away."

So you're reading that statement as TWO different statements; the 'pass away' being one condition and the 'all is fulfilled' being a second condition. And of course, ignoring Jesus' statement in the prior sentence where Jesus says He will fulfill all.

The law is still in effect for unbelievers, though if we are in Christ we are not under the law.

The law is still in effect for unbelievers. Fair enough, and as mentioned in other places, no one is saved by following the law.

The second phrase in your last statement is indeed what I've been saying all along. As Christians, we are not bound to the Mosaic Law.

As believers we do not make void the law but we establish the law (Romans 3:31).

Reading the entire paragraph, (Romans 3:27-31) Paul is explaining why we do not perform according to the Mosaic Law. We are NOT justified through works - like following the Mosaic Law in order to please God - but rather by faith. The 'law' we establish is the New Covenant, the law of faith in God through Jesus Christ; not the law of works by Moses.

I have a feeling you will not be satisfied herein, either.

Also, I just want to say that you couldn't have possibly given an answer to reply #106 in reply #105, as reply #106 was in response to reply #105 and reply #105 was also before reply#106 and so could not have been an answer to reply #106.

Obviously, you didn't read any of them. Or you are simply playing games.

Where have I seen that before?

 

[Soyeong]

To the original post.

Read 1 Timothy 4: 1 to 5, the whole paragraph. The meaning is much clearer that way.

The paragraph is advising Timothy to steer clear of those who want to add requirements onto faith and adherence to Jesus. The 'legalists', who want to put all Christians under the tyranny of a 'check-off list' of what to do and what to avoid.

They're still around.

There are 1,050 commands in the NT, so is that not a list of things to do and to avoid? For example, was Paul being tyrannical when he gave a list of things to do and to avoid in Galatians 5:19-23? Was God being tyrannical when He gave the law to Moses? Do you believe God when He said that His commands were given for His people's own good (Deuteronomy 10:13)? Would not demonstrating that you trust that God's commands are for your own good through living in obedience to them be living by faith rather than adding to faith? Do you think living by faith in God means to avoid obeying His commands? If you read the context of the verse, it's pretty clear that the types of people that Paul was speaking against were not those who were teaching obedience to God, but to their own traditions.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Do you think living by faith in God means to avoid obeying His commands?

Not at all. But don't lose track a Christian obeys the Lord out of love and gratitude for salvation; because a Christian is already the recipient of Grace and thereby Salvation. A Christian does not obey in order to obtain salvation. Nor is the Mosaic Law the commandments applicable to Christians.

And what is the list of commandments applicable to Christians? There are two, only: "Love the Lord your God with totality of heart, mind and strength; love your neighbor as one's self". None of this applies to dietary restrictions or upon which day to meet with other Christians to worship, please note.

For example, was Paul being tyrannical when he gave a list of things to do and to avoid in Galatians 5:19-23?

No. He was addressing some particular problems they had as a group, all of which violated the two commandments presented above. You might want to look at Galatians 5:14, which is part of the same passage as what you quote.

Christianity is NOT based on personal worth, merit, works or anything else one does to make God like the individual and so obtain salvation. Christianity is based on God's grace, manifest in Jesus' death in a seriously painful and distasteful manner.

And, to belabor the point just a little more; Christianity does NOT have a list of do's and don'ts, scored to award salvation.

 

[Soyeong]

Not at all. But don't lose track a Christian obeys the Lord out of love and gratitude for salvation; because a Christian is already the recipient of Grace and thereby Salvation. A Christian does not obey in order to obtain salvation. Nor is the Mosaic Law the commandments applicable to Christians.

And what is the list of commandments applicable to Christians? There are two, only: "Love the Lord your God with totality of heart, mind and strength; love your neighbor as one's self". None of this applies to dietary restrictions or upon which day to meet with other Christians to worship, please note.

No. He was addressing some particular problems they had as a group, all of which violated the two commandments presented above. You might want to look at Galatians 5:14, which is part of the same passage as what you quote.

Christianity is NOT based on personal worth, merit, works or anything else one does to make God like the individual and so obtain salvation. Christianity is based on God's grace, manifest in Jesus' death in a seriously painful and distasteful manner.

And, to belabor the point just a little more; Christianity does NOT have a list of do's and don'ts, scored to award salvation.

According to Romans 4:1-8, Abraham and David were justified by faith, and the one and only way to become justified is by faith apart from the law, so Moses was justified by faith apart from the law, which means that the law was never given nor needed for that purpose. Rather, obedience to the law has always been about demonstrating our faith in God to lead us in how we should live, demonstrating our faith that God's commands are for our own good, demonstrating our love for God, and thereby growing in a relationship with God based on faith and love. Jesus said that all of the other laws hang on the greatest two commandments, or in other words, they are all examples of what it looks like to correctly obey the two greatest two commandments. So obeying God's Sabbath and dietary restrictions is about demonstrating our faith and love for God. We should seek to worship God in the way that He wants to be worshipped rather than seek to worship God in the way that we want to. People who worship on Sunday rather than Saturday are essentially modern day pharisees who have set aside the commands of God to follow their own traditions (Mark 7:6-8).

In Galatians 5:14, it summarizes the law as being about how to love your neighbor, which means if you say we just need to love our neighbor so we can ignore all of God's instructions for how He wants us to love our neighbor, then you are missing the point. Again, obedience to the law has never been about being awarded salvation, but rather it is instructions for how to live by faith because we have been saved from lawlessness by faith.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

People who worship on Sunday rather than Saturday are essentially modern day pharisees who have set aside the commands of God to follow their own traditions (Mark 7:6-8).

Incorrect, Soyeong. Those who demand everyone worship on Saturday - the Sabbath - are Pharisees, more accurately Judaizers who desire to remove Grace and reinstate Mosaic Law.