I hate Repent of your sins to be Saved. it is a false gospel, lie from the pit of hell

Rsdar said:

That would still not negate repentance.

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If one does not confess and forsake any sins committed after getting saved, then they are on the hook for those sins because God is not mocked, we do reap what we sow.

When one turns away from the Lord and sins, they must forsake their sin and confess their sin to the Lord in order to be in right standing with the Lord once again according to His Word.

Proverbs 28:13
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Confessing our sin and turning away from our sin would be sowing to the Spirit where we reap life so this is what we must do if we sin.

Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Salvation is not all works (Works Alone), and neither is it all grace (with no works).
People are confused on this topic because they do not understand that there are two aspects of salvation for the believer.

In the 1st aspect of salvation: We are initially saved by God's grace without works by faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).
This is generally believing the gospel message that Christ died for our sins, he was buried, and risen on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This is how salvation starts. This is what Paul is talking about in most of his letters. He says this because he is also fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" in Acts 15. There were Jews who were trying to deceive Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised to be saved. This is why Paul says in Galatians 5:2 that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Read also the end of Romans 2, and Romans 3:1.

But do not be deceived into thinking like George Sodini. According to his suicide letter, George Sodini killed a bunch of people and he took his own life believing he was saved by a belief alone in Jesus. Even his church believed he was saved (Which is insanity). Sadly this is what Eternal Security can do to a person's mind. They can do unimaginable evils and claim to be in God's good graces. They are only deceiving themselves. Jude 1:4 warns against those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality. The KJV says, "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." (Jude 1:4).

2 Thessalonians 2:13 is like the huge plane that flies over most Christians heads these days. They love Ephesians 2:8-9, as they clap their hands and celebrate their sin to their own destruction and rebellion against God, but they will not be honest with themselves in dealing with this verse and others by the apostle Paul himself that condemns their sin and still be saved mentality. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. This is the second aspect of salvation. Examples of it in Scripture? Romans 8:13 says, "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." Galatians 6:8-9 says, "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not." 1 Timothy 5:8 says, "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." Romans 2:5-9 says, "...God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;"

Just read Matthew 13:41-42.

It says the Son of Man (JESUS) will send forth His angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who do iniquity and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e., the Lake of Fire obviously). So this is why most Christians are going to be in for a surprise when they are at the Judgment. But it is not a surprise because we warned them with Scripture and they just refuse to listen. Sin is the real reason why they believe the way they do. Sin is pleasurable and folks simply do not want to give up their sin because it is enjoyable. Their allegiance is to their sin and or evil and not to God and, if people love evil, they are not saved. One has to love God and the things that He loves and submit to Him. If not, you're going to be toast. I am sorry to say this but this is simply the reality of what will happen according to the Bible. But people love to pick and choose parts of the Bible that they prefer to see (even if it is indefensible).

Side Note:

As for repentance:

Repentance is seeking forgiveness with the LORD Jesus Christ of one's past life of sin or specific sins by way of prayer with godly sorrow. This is done with the intention of forsaking sin. It can happen at one’s Initial Salvation (Romans 10:9-13), and also continue throughout the Christian life when a believer honestly stumbles on rare occasions (1 John 1:9). But many today have accepted another Christ from a preacher who says we are all sinners and we cannot help but to sin and all we need to do is just believe in Jesus and the finished work of the cross and we are saved. The problem with this belief is that it cannot be found in the Scriptures. You may be able to twist the Initial Salvation verses by the apostle Paul, but there are so many others even by Paul that refutes this kind of wrong belief. Anyway, I say this all in love and with the hope that many will hear and turn from their evil and wicked ways. Ask yourself: What was the reason why God turned back from bringing wrath upon the Ninevites? (See: Jonah 3:6-10 for the answer, and then see Matthew 12:41). If after you read these verses plainly like a child and still think you can sin and still be saved, only God can lift the veil from your eyes (if you don’t have a seared conscience).

Side Note 2:

I am also not Catholic or Orthodox.
I just believe the Bible alone + the Anointing to understand it (1 John 2:27).

Bible Highlighter said:

You may be able to twist the Initial Salvation verses by the apostle Paul, but there are so many others even by Paul that refutes this kind of wrong belief.

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Exactly!

We know this is one of many-

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

The bible has to be taken as a whole. And many people do, I agree gloss over that that we should always be in the process of sanctifying one's self through the spirit throughout our lives. We have to continue to strive to put the spirit above the flesh. And that shouldn't be looked at as a "work" but a natural progression as a Christian. Through repentance, we "want" to try and put the spirit above the flesh. Will we fall short at times, yes of course but we know we have an advocate in Christ that let's us back into that light.

Cockcrow said:

not Repent from all your sins, stop sinning.

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I'm sorry but if one does not even have an the urge to stop sinning I highly doubt the Spirit is dwelling within that person. It means the person has not achieved repentance (changed their minds) That person is deceiving themselves as pointed out in the bible. Repentance and sanctification can take time but to simply say I believe and live out the rest of your life still serving the flesh and your good to go is not biblical. We have to take the bible as a whole, not just pull out a few verses to produce a doctrine.

Romans 6:1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Romans 6:2 "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

We are not to live in sin.

We are supposed to be dead to sin and if that be the case we cannot live in it. Someone that does is deceiving themselves and the truth is not in them.


And there's a difference between falling short (we always will) and living in blatant sin.

JulieB67 said:

if one does not even have an the urge to stop sinning I highly doubt the Spirit is dwelling within that person.

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But, they could have been saved at one time and the Word has been choked out of them as we see Jesus speaking of in Mark 4:13-20

Some do actually get born again but they backslide by taking off the new man and put the old man back on and go back to living in sin. There is no such thing as once saved always saved sin mankind is free to reject the Lord and turn away from Him.

JulieB67 said:

Exactly!

We know this is one of many-

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

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Yes, the last part of this verse you highlighted (bolded) is removed in most Modern Bibles but it is present in the King James Bible.
The word “fornication” (i.e., sex before marriage) is removed entirely or watered-down in some Modern Bibles;
And folks wonder why Christians today think sex before marriage is okay (When this was not the way of thinking by Christians in the past). According to some Modern Bibles: You can divorce for immorality (instead of divorcing for fornication).
Meaning, a person could divorce for lying (immorality) if they follow an NAS95.
Hence, I always point folks back to the KJV because it has the fuller superior message in many verses like these.

JulieB67 said:

The bible has to be taken as a whole.

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I agree 100%.
Some Christians reject not only certain parts of the Bible, but others reject whole books of the Bible.
For example: I have run into Christians who reject the book Esther or Song of Solomon.
Some Christians believe the scholars and reject whole sections of Scriptures like the ending in Mark, or the real life story of the woman caught in the act of adultery in John 8.

We truly are living in the last days.

Side Note:

Now, those Christians who reject certain verses of the Bible (like the verses on repentance involving our salvation) may say they are not rejecting these verses, but by their inability to properly explain such verses plainly like a child simply shows they really do not accept them (Despite their claims).

JulieB67 said:

And many people do, I agree gloss over that that we should always be in the process of sanctifying one's self through the spirit throughout our lives. We have to continue to strive to put the spirit above the flesh. And that shouldn't be looked at as a "work" but a natural progression as a Christian.

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I see Sanctification as synergistic. It is a walk with God. A co-operation (cooperation). I believe when we surrender to God, He does the good work through us. It is why the 24 elders had cast their crowns down before Jesus. It is why Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). I see Sanctification is about sanctifying our lives to God in putting away sin out of our lives and living a holy life by His power.

Ephesians 2:8-9 talks about our Initial Salvation in being saved by God’s grace through faith without works.
A person can be saved by believing the gospel message in that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day (for our salvation) (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We see Cornelius and his household receive the Spirit for just believing the gospel messsage (when it was preached to them by Peter). This is being saved by God’s grace. Being saved by God’s grace in our Initial Salvation can sometimes include seeking forgiveness of one’s past life of sin with the Lord Jesus (i.e., repentance).

God’s grace can continue in a believer’s life in the fact that if we do sin on rare occasion, we can confess of our sins to Jesus to be forgiven of our sins (instead of doing a good work to absolve that sin) (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1).

However, I believe there is a secondary aspect of salvation that many Christians are not aware of.
It is defined for us in 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen you to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth.
This secondary aspect of salvation is two fold according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13.


In the Sanctification of the Spirit, we have to live holy by God’s power.
In the belief of the truth, we have to study His Word to show ourselves approved unto God (a workman who needs not be ashamed) (See: 2 Timothy 2:15). This study of course leads to believing the doctrines in the Bible (i.e., like believing the Trinity, and loving our enemies, loving the brethren, etcetera).

While Sanctification from God is not really called a work (according to the Bible), we know that living holy does involve doing good works as a part of Sanctification. Note: Please keep in mind I am not Catholic or Orthodox. My position is the Bible alone + the Anointing to Understand It (1 John 2:27). Okay. So Sanctification involves putting away sin and overcoming sin. What are these sins? Well, they would be sins of commission and sins of omission.

Sin is the breaking of God’s commands or laws (See: 1 John 3:4).
Sins of commission are the “Thou shalt not’s” (like: Thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, etcetera).
Sins of omission are things we do not do for God that He commands of us (like: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love thy neighbor as thyself). Sins of omission would include not doing the following: Worshiping and adoring God. Preaching or spreading the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Helping the poor. Loving the brethren. Partaking of the great commission, which is to teach all nations to observe all things whatsoever Jesus has commanded.

When John the Baptist said we are to bring forth fruits (works) worthy of repentance, the crowd asked him:
“What shall we do then?
He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise. Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do? And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.” (Luke 3:11-14).

Remember, John the Baptist said the axe is laid to the root of the tree. Jesus said if the branch does not bring forth fruit, it will be cut off and thrown into the fire. Fruit is good works. Jesus even warns us with the Parable of the Talents and says that the unprofitable servant will be cast into outer darkness. In the Parable of the Sheep and Goats, those believers who did not help the poor in this life will go away into everlasting punishment. So yes. We do need good works (At least if one believes the Bible plainly). Some will say that we will just naturally do good works as a part of being born again, but the Bible says we are to continue in the faith, continue in God’s grace, continue in His goodness, and to abide in His love. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Why is Paul telling us to do this if it is automatic?

Side Note:

Folks are confused on the works issue because they do not understand that Paul was talking about Initial Salvation in Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:3-5, and he was fighting against the heresy of which I call, “Circumcision Salvationism” as shown in Acts 15. This is the false belief that said you had to be circumcised in order to be initially saved. Paul also said that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2).
Why? Because if a person thought they had to first be circumcised to be initially saved, they would be making salvation all about good works as the entrance gate and foundation of their faith (instead of being saved by God’s grace through faith). People would be shocked to learn that Paul actually taught works for salvation in our Sanctification in Galatians 6:8-9, 1 Timothy 5:8, Titus 1:16, and Romans 2:5-9. Sanctification can only happen AFTER we are saved initially by God’s grace through faith without works (of course). We also do not do a good work to redeem any sin, either. If we mess up, God’s grace is there for us in that we can confess our sins to our Lord Jesus Christ. Let us boldly come before the throne of His grace.

Then again, do not take my word for it. Check these verses out for yourself in prayer.

JulieB67 said:

Through repentance, we "want" to try and put the spirit above the flesh. Will we fall short at times, yes of course but we know we have an advocate in Christ that let's us back into that light.

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I see repentance as seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ with a godly sorrow (with a person intending to forsake their sin for good). If a person has no intention or belief they can overcome sin, then there is no real point in confessing sin If one knows they will just go back out and do that sin again. It would be like a husband who says he loves his wife, and yet he is cheating on her and he has no intention to ever stop or overcome his sin. He really does not love her and he actually loves his sin or lust more than his wife. Yes, Jesus said the spirit is willing and the flesh is weak, but Galatians says that they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts. Peter says in 1 Peter 4:1-2 that one can cease from sin if they suffer in the flesh. But most Christians today cannot see these verses in Scripture. It is as if they do not exist. So believers must strive to overcome sin in their life. It’s not easy, and I am not saying I have it all figured out, but I know that the first steps are believing the Bible, being thankful for His grace, and asking God for help.

We have to remember that with God, nothing is impossible.
The battles in the Old Testament are mirror reflections of the battles we must fight spiritually in the New Testament.

RocK Guy said:

But, they could have been saved at one time and the Word has been choked out of them as we see Jesus speaking of in Mark 4:13-20

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Yes, that's possible as well.

RocK Guy said:

There is no such thing as once saved always saved sin mankind is free to reject the Lord and turn away from Him.

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I believe this as well. We see that many he will turn away at the end.

Bible Highlighter said:

Peter says in 1 Peter 4:1-2 that one can cease from sin if they suffer in the flesh.

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Good example.

Cockcrow said: Jonah 3:10 says turning from evil way is works.

God honored their turning away from evil. At the time there was no Savior to atone for them so they had to perform good deeds or works that correspond with repentance for God to see and relent to punish them. Jonah 4:2, Jerem.18:8, Joel 2:13.

In that time of law and the need to do as God commanded, that makes works a saving from divine punishment thing, not a disgusting thing.

The problem with works in the age of grace is when people rely on their works and not rely on the atonement sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Read Galatians and Hebrews. To see the contrast.

T.i.m.o.t.h.y. said:

Cockcrow said: Jonah 3:10 says turning from evil way is works.

God honored their turning away from evil. At the time there was no Savior to atone for them so they had to perform good deeds or works that correspond with repentance for God to see and relent to punish them. Jonah 4:2, Jerem.18:8, Joel 2:13.

In that time of law and the need to do as God commanded, that makes works a saving from divine punishment thing, not a disgusting thing.

The problem with works in the age of grace is when people rely on their works and not rely on the atonement sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Read Galatians and Hebrews. To see the contrast.

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No. Repentance is also required in the New Testament. Just go to BlueLetterBible and search for the word "repent" or "repentance," etcetera. In fact, Jesus makes it a point in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up against this generation because they repented at Jonah's preaching. Even the apostle Paul says that godly sorrow leads to repentance that is not to be regretted (2 Corinthians 7:10).

In addition, what you propose sounds like Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, which is unbiblical. Salvation has always been "Faith (without works) + Works of Faith." In short, we are saved by God's grace and Sanctification. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule. A person can die accepting Jesus as their Savior and be saved solely by God's grace through faith without works of faith (like the thief on the cross). But the believer who lives out their faith has to have works of faith. Even the apostle Paul says in Galatians 6:8-9 that if you sow to the Spirit, you shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. This sowing to the Spirit is defined in verse 9 as "well doing" (which is good works or works of faith), and we are told to not be weary (tired) in well-doing, for we will reap if we faint not. Reap what? Everlasting life (according to verse 8). So you have to sow to the Spirit in well doing (good works) to reap "everlasting life."

Another one? 1 Timothy 5:8. Paul says if any man does not provide for his own, he has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel. So if you do not do the good work of providing for your own as a believer, you will then become worse than an unbeliever (infidel), and you will, in effect, have denied the faith at this point by such an action. This again demonstrates how your fruit or work is a necessary component in God's plan of salvation. Yes, we are saved by God's grace through faith without works, but this is in our Initial Salvation. Just read the context of Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:3-5, and Romans 11:6. If you read these chapters carefully in context, you will see that they talk about how to GET saved. It does not discuss how to continue in salvation after being saved. Romans 11 is talking to the unsaved Jew and how they need to GET saved, and we learn in Acts 15 that a particular sect of Jews was trying to deceive Gentile Christians into thinking they had first to be circumcised in order to be initially saved. For if you believed this wrong sect of Jews that you had to be circumcised FIRST to be initially saved, then you would be making a "work" or "the Law" the entrance gate and foundation of your salvation and faith. It would then be "Works Alone Salvationism" (with no grace). Hence, this is what is in view of Romans 11:6.

Furthermore, 1 Timothy 6:3-4 says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of godliness, he is proud and knows nothing. So, imagine you lived in Paul's time and received a copy of Timothy's letter. You never saw Jesus but lived during the early church era when Paul's letters were circulated. How would you know of Jesus's words back then? By the gospels. So, if a believer back then disagreed with the words of Jesus by saying they do not apply, that would mean they would be proud and know nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Side Note:

Keep in mind that I am not Catholic or Orthodox. I believe "the Bible Alone + The Anointing to Understand It" (2 Timothy 3:16-17) (1 John 2:27).

Keep in mind that I did not post for the purpose of anyone to find fault with. Keep the focus on giving correction or encouragement to the OP.

Bible Highlighter said:

No. Repentance is also required in the New Testament. Just go to BlueLetterBible and search for the word "repent" or "repentance," etcetera. In fact, Jesus makes it a point in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up against this generation because they repented at Jonah's preaching. Even the apostle Paul says that godly sorrow leads to repentance that is not to be regretted (2 Corinthians 7:10).

In addition, what you propose sounds like Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, which is unbiblical. Salvation has always been "Faith (without works) + Works of Faith." In short, we are saved by God's grace and Sanctification. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule. A person can die accepting Jesus as their Savior and be saved solely by God's grace through faith without works of faith (like the thief on the cross). But the believer who lives out their faith has to have works of faith. Even the apostle Paul says in Galatians 6:8-9 that if you sow to the Spirit, you shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. This sowing to the Spirit is defined in verse 9 as "well doing" (which is good works or works of faith), and we are told to not be weary (tired) in well-doing, for we will reap if we faint not. Reap what? Everlasting life (according to verse 8). So you have to sow to the Spirit in well doing (good works) to reap "everlasting life."

Another one? 1 Timothy 5:8. Paul says if any man does not provide for his own, he has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel. So if you do not do the good work of providing for your own as a believer, you will then become worse than an unbeliever (infidel), and you will, in effect, have denied the faith at this point by such an action. This again demonstrates how your fruit or work is a necessary component in God's plan of salvation. Yes, we are saved by God's grace through faith without works, but this is in our Initial Salvation. Just read the context of Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:3-5, and Romans 11:6. If you read these chapters carefully in context, you will see that they talk about how to GET saved. It does not discuss how to continue in salvation after being saved. Romans 11 is talking to the unsaved Jew and how they need to GET saved, and we learn in Acts 15 that a particular sect of Jews was trying to deceive Gentile Christians into thinking they had first to be circumcised in order to be initially saved. For if you believed this wrong sect of Jews that you had to be circumcised FIRST to be initially saved, then you would be making a "work" or "the Law" the entrance gate and foundation of your salvation and faith. It would then be "Works Alone Salvationism" (with no grace). Hence, this is what is in view of Romans 11:6.

Furthermore, 1 Timothy 6:3-4 says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of godliness, he is proud and knows nothing. So, imagine you lived in Paul's time and received a copy of Timothy's letter. You never saw Jesus but lived during the early church era when Paul's letters were circulated. How would you know of Jesus's words back then? By the gospels. So, if a believer back then disagreed with the words of Jesus by saying they do not apply, that would mean they would be proud and know nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Side Note:

Keep in mind that I am not Catholic or Orthodox. I believe "the Bible Alone + The Anointing to Understand It" (2 Timothy 3:16-17) (1 John 2:27).

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I used Bible hub's Old Testament suggested verse references when I looked up Jonah 3:10 that the OP used to reject all New Testament verses to counter the OP's objections. so you should perhaps go and present your reply to them.

Other than that I'm quite aware that the word repentance is in the New Testament. I have likely been reading the Bible long before you have been and I'm certainly aware of what repentance means and why it's necessary for salvation as well as anytime of weakness in sin after salvation.

But you have overloaded your reply to me with assumptions that I don't know very much of the most basic of Bible topics. And you've showed your own ignorance in stating that dispensations are not biblical. The most obvious dispensations are the Old Testament of law and the New Testament of grace.

There's a difference between knowing the scriptures and knowing your audience. My reply was to the audience (the OP), your reply was to someone other than me.

Bible Highlighter said:

No. Repentance is also required in the New Testament. Just go to BlueLetterBible and search for the word "repent" or "repentance," etcetera. In fact, Jesus makes it a point in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up against this generation because they repented at Jonah's preaching. Even the apostle Paul says that godly sorrow leads to repentance that is not to be regretted (2 Corinthians 7:10).

In addition, what you propose sounds like Mid-Acts Dispensationalism, which is unbiblical. Salvation has always been "Faith (without works) + Works of Faith."

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I would point out Abraham as an example, as he is used as an acceptable example of true Faith. Abraham was given a commandment. Basically, take your son up on a mountain, and sacrifice him to me. Well Abraham could has said, "Well I believe in God, and I "profess to know him and Love Him", but I don't agree with His Commandment, so I'm not going to obey Him in it". Now a lot of religious men, who Profess to know God, live in this very manner, concluding that they are free to disobey God's Instruction they might not like, and they "shall surely not die". It's the oldest recorded deception in the Bible.

But Abraham didn't do this. Sure, he lived 70 years in sin and in the religions of his father, but when God gave him instructions, he obeyed them, even at the risk of losing his family, his friends, and even his own son. This is called Faith in God. It is the Faith Jesus had in Him, becoming a man in a world that HE knew would hate Him.

Without this obedience, Abraham's Faith was dead. So the "work" of Faith, was obedience to God, according to scriptures. Through Study I have learned what Paul meant when he said Abraham was Justified "Apart from the Law" or "works of the Law". In Abrahams time there was no Levitical Priesthood. There were no Commandments to take a goat to a Levite Priest and kill it, before atonement could be provided for him. This "LAW" was not even ADDED until 430 years after God said "that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

So in the Bible, Faith and obedience to God were always bound together, one not existing without the other. If a man takes a look at the examples of Faith given us in Heb. 11, this is perfectly clear. Salvation has always been granted to those who Paul teaches, "that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." Or as the Christ, before becoming a man teaches;

Ez. 18: 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

And again, after HE ascended up where HE was before becoming a man;

Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Obedience to God in a world surrounded by men who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." takes Faith/obedience, the kind of faith Abraham had when he refused to disobey God, even at the risk of losing his only son.

Bible Highlighter said:

In short, we are saved by God's grace and Sanctification. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule. A person can die accepting Jesus as their Savior and be saved solely by God's grace through faith without works of faith (like the thief on the cross). But the believer who lives out their faith has to have works of faith. Even the apostle Paul says in Galatians 6:8-9 that if you sow to the Spirit, you shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. This sowing to the Spirit is defined in verse 9 as "well doing" (which is good works or works of faith), and we are told to not be weary (tired) in well-doing, for we will reap if we faint not. Reap what? Everlasting life (according to verse 8). So you have to sow to the Spirit in well doing (good works) to reap "everlasting life."

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So who defines for men what God's definition of "Well doing" is? Isn't being a servant of God's Righteousness, and not our own, considered "well doing"?

Rom. 6: 15 What then? shall we sin, (Disobey) because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye "yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin (disobedience) unto death, or of "obedience" unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of (God's) righteousness.

Bible Highlighter said:

Side Note:

Keep in mind that I am not Catholic or Orthodox. I believe "the Bible Alone + The Anointing to Understand It" (2 Timothy 3:16-17) (1 John 2:27).

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Peter said, in the Spirit of Christ,

Acts 5: 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, "whom God hath given" to them that obey him.

And Paul;

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

I agree with you that we should trust the Holy Scriptures alone "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" and that means we "deny" the religious traditions of this world God placed us in and turn to God in obedience. This world's religions will ridicule the man who does this, just as the mainstream preachers of Paul's time ridiculed him. A man will lose family members friends and there is a cost. And this Narrow Path Jesus said to strive for is walked by few, as Jesus Himself teaches.

But Paul believed it was worth the cost.

Bible Highlighter said:

Salvation is not all works (Works Alone), and neither is it all grace (with no works).

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Amen~

Our "works" do not grant us faith, we are granted free grace. Still, our works are the evidence of our faith, not the cause of it. God gives us the free gift of grace. Through that gift, we are granted faith and we know that faith without works is dead. Not because we didn't merit salvation but because our faith was a dead faith. God wants us to live in faith which we are granted with grace. But we must answer the call. We must to the best of our ability obey Christ's commandments, not just agree with them.

To be a Christian is to live as a Christian and we know we live as a Christian by our actions. When we are made Christian we don't prop up our faith with works, we are granted the ability to produce good fruit BECAUSE we have been granted the free gift of grace.

So I completely agree with the statement or yours that I quoted because it illustrates that faith is what we have been granted and works are the fruits of the grace and faith that we were given.

I hope I am making sense but it feels like I'm going around in circles.

T.i.m.o.t.h.y. said:

I used Bible hub's Old Testament suggested verse references when I looked up Jonah 3:10 that the OP used to reject all New Testament verses to counter the OP's objections. so you should perhaps go and present your reply to them.

Other than that I'm quite aware that the word repentance is in the New Testament. I have likely been reading the Bible long before you have been and I'm certainly aware of what repentance means and why it's necessary for salvation as well as anytime of weakness in sin after salvation.

But you have overloaded your reply to me with assumptions that I don't know very much of the most basic of Bible topics. And you've showed your own ignorance in stating that dispensations are not biblical. The most obvious dispensations are the Old Testament of law and the New Testament of grace.

There's a difference between knowing the scriptures and knowing your audience. My reply was to the audience (the OP), your reply was to someone other than me.

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I believe dispensations are biblical, but Mid Acts Dispensationalism or Hyper Dispensationalism is unbiblical.

Also, years of reading or studying the Bible does not mean one has superior knowledge of God’s Word always. A Unitarian, Mormon, and atheist can each study the Bible for 80 years, and yet if they don’t reject the false beliefs they have, they clearly still do not believe the Bible properly.

As for repentance:

You believe repentance is a work.

You left your conversation opened ended making it appear that you are against works for our current dispensation and yet it is oddly required in another (making God a respecter of persons). If this is the case, have you seriously looked at the verses that refutes Mid Acts? Why don’t you think they are not valid?

Studyman said:

I would point out Abraham as an example, as he is used as an acceptable example of true Faith. Abraham was given a commandment. Basically, take your son up on a mountain, and sacrifice him to me.

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Well, I believe Genesis 22:2 is a false rendering in Modern Bibles. The King James Bible properly says that God was telling Abraham to offer his son. What’s the difference? Well, sometimes under the Old Covenant, the Israelite would bring an animal as a gift to the priest and the priest would make the actual sacrifice. So under the OT, one could make an offering without actually having to do any kind of sacrifice themselves. Granted, the word “offer” can also mean to sacrifice, too. This is where Abraham misunderstood God.

Studyman said:

Well Abraham could has said, "Well I believe in God, and I "profess to know him and Love Him", but I don't agree with His Commandment, so I'm not going to obey Him in it". Now a lot of religious men, who Profess to know God, live in this very manner, concluding that they are free to disobey God's Instruction they might not like, and they "shall surely not die". It's the oldest recorded deception in the Bible.

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I believe the Bible teaches that there are sins unto death and sins not unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

Studyman said:

But Abraham didn't do this. Sure, he lived 70 years in sin and in the religions of his father, but when God gave him instructions, he obeyed them, even at the risk of losing his family, his friends, and even his own son. This is called Faith in God. It is the Faith Jesus had in Him, becoming a man in a world that HE knew would hate Him.

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We do not have a play by play instruction of the life of Abraham entirely. We are given glimpses. I believe Abraham would have first believed God by faith first (with no works) before he did any work of faith (Which I believe is a part of the faith, i.e., the next step).

Studyman said:

Without this obedience, Abraham's Faith was dead. So the "work" of Faith, was obedience to God, according to scriptures. Through Study I have learned what Paul meant when he said Abraham was Justified "Apart from the Law" or "works of the Law". In Abrahams time there was no Levitical Priesthood. There were no Commandments to take a goat to a Levite Priest and kill it, before atonement could be provided for him. This "LAW" was not even ADDED until 430 years after God said "that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

So in the Bible, Faith and obedience to God were always bound together, one not existing without the other. If a man takes a look at the examples of Faith given us in Heb. 11, this is perfectly clear. Salvation has always been granted to those who Paul teaches, "that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." Or as the Christ, before becoming a man teaches;

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I would agree, but I believe the work of faith (that justifies) only exists in the secondary aspect of the believer’s salvation (or the next step in a Christian’s faith). I see faith like a two sided coin. The first side of the coin is Initial Salvation in being saved by God’s grace through faith (without works). The second side of the coin are the works of faith (Which is a part of our Sanctification in living a holy life by the Spirit). Works of faith and holy living (by God’s power) is the next step in our faith and it is how we continue to access the saving grace of God.

Studyman said:

Ez. 18: 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

And again, after HE ascended up where HE was before becoming a man;

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The word “repent” and its variations in the Bible has several meanings and it is based on the context.
When it is mentioned in relation to God it can mean “grieve,” or a “change of mind,” etc.
Primarily, when God tells man to repent, this would mean that man would have a godly sorrow and seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ with the intent in forsaking their sin and overcoming it. Yes, there are a two instances that repent sounds more like forsaking sin but I found this only in the Parable of the Two Sons, and when we compare Jonah 3:6-10 with Matthew 12:41.

To see my Biblical Case for Repentance, see this thread here:

Studyman said:

Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Obedience to God in a world surrounded by men who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." takes Faith/obedience, the kind of faith Abraham had when he refused to disobey God, even at the risk of losing his only son.




So who defines for men what God's definition of "Well doing" is? Isn't being a servant of God's Righteousness, and not our own, considered "well doing"?

Rom. 6: 15 What then? shall we sin, (Disobey) because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye "yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin (disobedience) unto death, or of "obedience" unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of (God's) righteousness.

Click to expand...

I agree 100%. Many Christians today believe they can sin and still be saved by having a belief alone in Jesus, but that’s not how things work.

Studyman said:

Peter said, in the Spirit of Christ,

Acts 5: 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, "whom God hath given" to them that obey him.

And Paul;

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

I agree with you that we should trust the Holy Scriptures alone "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" and that means we "deny" the religious traditions of this world God placed us in and turn to God in obedience. This world's religions will ridicule the man who does this, just as the mainstream preachers of Paul's time ridiculed him. A man will lose family members friends and there is a cost. And this Narrow Path Jesus said to strive for is walked by few, as Jesus Himself teaches.

But Paul believed it was worth the cost.

Click to expand...

Yes, folks do not know just how narrow the straight gate path really is. We should always strive to pray for them and tell them truth in love.

Anyway, may the Lord Jesus bless you and your family greatly.

Bible Highlighter said:

Well, I believe Genesis 22:2 is a false rendering in Modern Bibles. The King James Bible properly says that God was telling Abraham to offer his son.
What’s the difference? Well, sometimes under the Old Covenant, the Israelite would bring an animal as a gift to the priest and the priest would make the actual sacrifice. So under the OT, one could make an offering without actually having to do any kind of sacrifice themselves. Granted, the word “offer” can also mean to sacrifice, too. This is where Abraham misunderstood God.

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Gen. 22: 2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. 7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

I would not presume to teach others that Abraham didn't understand God, or that God was not able to sufficiently explain Himself to Abraham. And such a teaching is never taught or even implied in Scriptures, at least to my knowledge. I appreciate your opinion in the matter, and the reply. But I have learned a long time ago not to make such judgments about God or those who were Faithful to Him. And surely it seems God and Abraham were on the same page, according to what is written.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: "for now I know" that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Was it not a test of Abraham's faith? And a brilliant one at that, because Abraham did sacrifice his son in his heart, which God knew. He did everything but plunge the knife he carried into his son's heart, but in his mind, which God knew, he already did. I find this obedience noteworthy, and it seems God did as well, because although Abraham is dead and has been dead for centuries, what man in this world has not heard of his great faith? And who made this knowledge of Abraham possible, was it not the God of Abraham and His Son, the Jesus of the Bible?

And regarding the offerings you spoke of in the Levitical Priesthood, Abraham was not under this Priesthood covenant, as it wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years after God told Isaac he was Blessed "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Surely this story aligns with the rest of the bible, as it is inspired by the Same God to be written though Samuel, "And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. Surely that is the lesson God gave me through Abraham.

Our possible disagreements notwithstanding, these topics are great and beneficial to examine and discuss as we press towards the Prize of the High calling of God, which was in Christ Jesus, as Abraham did.

Studyman said:

Gen. 22: 2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. 7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

I would not presume to teach others that Abraham didn't understand God, or that God was not able to sufficiently explain Himself to Abraham. And such a teaching is never taught or even implied in Scriptures, at least to my knowledge. I appreciate your opinion in the matter, and the reply. But I have learned a long time ago not to make such judgments about God or those who were Faithful to Him. And surely it seems God and Abraham were on the same page, according to what is written.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: "for now I know" that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Was it not a test of Abraham's faith? And a brilliant one at that, because Abraham did sacrifice his son in his heart, which God knew. He did everything but plunge the knife he carried into his son's heart, but in his mind, which God knew, he already did. I find this obedience noteworthy, and it seems God did as well, because although Abraham is dead and has been dead for centuries, what man in this world has not heard of his great faith? And who made this knowledge of Abraham possible, was it not the God of Abraham and His Son, the Jesus of the Bible?

And regarding the offerings you spoke of in the Levitical Priesthood, Abraham was not under this Priesthood covenant, as it wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years after God told Isaac he was Blessed "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Surely this story aligns with the rest of the bible, as it is inspired by the Same God to be written though Samuel, "And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. Surely that is the lesson God gave me through Abraham.

Our possible disagreements notwithstanding, these topics are great and beneficial to examine and discuss as we press towards the Prize of the High calling of God, which was in Christ Jesus, as Abraham did.

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Using a knife to sacrifice and the later action of a burnt offering are not the same actions. God wanted Abraham to offer his son but not to sacrifice him.

In Genesis 22:2, “offer him up” (KJB) is changed to: “sacrifice” in Modern Bibles (CEV, ERV, GW, TLB, MSG, NOG, NIV, NLT). God told Abraham to offer up Isaac and not to sacrifice him. So if certain Modern bibles are correct, the dilemma here is that either:

1. Abraham did not obey God or:
2. God went back on His Word.

Studyman said:

Gen. 22: 2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. 7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

I would not presume to teach others that Abraham didn't understand God, or that God was not able to sufficiently explain Himself to Abraham. And such a teaching is never taught or even implied in Scriptures, at least to my knowledge. I appreciate your opinion in the matter, and the reply. But I have learned a long time ago not to make such judgments about God or those who were Faithful to Him. And surely it seems God and Abraham were on the same page, according to what is written.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: "for now I know" that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Was it not a test of Abraham's faith? And a brilliant one at that, because Abraham did sacrifice his son in his heart, which God knew. He did everything but plunge the knife he carried into his son's heart, but in his mind, which God knew, he already did. I find this obedience noteworthy, and it seems God did as well, because although Abraham is dead and has been dead for centuries, what man in this world has not heard of his great faith? And who made this knowledge of Abraham possible, was it not the God of Abraham and His Son, the Jesus of the Bible?

And regarding the offerings you spoke of in the Levitical Priesthood, Abraham was not under this Priesthood covenant, as it wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years after God told Isaac he was Blessed "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Surely this story aligns with the rest of the bible, as it is inspired by the Same God to be written though Samuel, "And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. Surely that is the lesson God gave me through Abraham.

Our possible disagreements notwithstanding, these topics are great and beneficial to examine and discuss as we press towards the Prize of the High calling of God, which was in Christ Jesus, as Abraham did.

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Also notice it says for a burnt offering. Offering. I may offer you some chocolate, but you could refuse. In short, Abraham was to offer his son as an offering (that was a burnt offering) but it does not mean God really wanted Abraham to have his son sacrificed with a Knife and then burned. Yes, it was a test of his faith to give up his son. God spoke in a way that could be understood in two different ways. But God never at any point desired Abraham to have his son actually killed.

In short, God was using clever wording to test Abraham’s faith.

Bible Highlighter said:

I believe dispensations are biblical, but Mid Acts Dispensationalism or Hyper Dispensationalism is unbiblical.

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This thread is not the topic of dispensation. So you are off topic.

You have misidentified my position concerning dispensation.

Bible Highlighter said:

Also, years of reading or studying the Bible does not mean one has superior knowledge of God’s Word always. A Unitarian, Mormon, and atheist can each study the Bible for 80 years, and yet if they don’t reject the false beliefs they have, they clearly still do not believe the Bible properly.

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I was accurately comparing my Bible knowledge with yours. But you use unorthodox religions in contrast to orthodox Christianity to imply that the number of years of mine compared to yours means nothing. That is what a bible student still wet behind the ears would say.

Bible Highlighter said:

As for repentance:

You believe repentance is a work.

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You are mistaken. You don't know my theological background at all.

Bible Highlighter said:

You left your conversation opened ended making it appear that you are against works for our current dispensation and yet it is oddly required in another (making God a respecter of persons).

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My last post to you was not open ended. It was final but apparently you chose to misjudge it in order to continue misjuding me.

I'm amazed that you'd think that I'd want to talk to you any further.

If you reply to me again I will report it as goading.

rturner76 said:

Amen~

Our "works" do not grant us faith, we are granted free grace. Still, our works are the evidence of our faith, not the cause of it. God gives us the free gift of grace. Through that gift, we are granted faith and we know that faith without works is dead. Not because we didn't merit salvation but because our faith was a dead faith. God wants us to live in faith which we are granted with grace. But we must answer the call. We must to the best of our ability obey Christ's commandments, not just agree with them.

To be a Christian is to live as a Christian and we know we live as a Christian by our actions. When we are made Christian we don't prop up our faith with works, we are granted the ability to produce good fruit BECAUSE we have been granted the free gift of grace.

So I completely agree with the statement or yours that I quoted because it illustrates that faith is what we have been granted and works are the fruits of the grace and faith that we were given.

I hope I am making sense but it feels like I'm going around in circles.

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Jesus gave us the Parable of the Talents. If the fruit was automatic, this parable would not make any sense (See Matthew 25:14-30). It is telling us believers to be faithful (fruitful) and gives us the warning that the unprofitable servant will be cast into outer darkness. This warning applies to us. There are other such warnings in the Bible. John 15:1-6 would be another.

I hope this helps.

In any event, may God bless you.

rturner76 said:

Amen~

Our "works" do not grant us faith, we are granted free grace. Still, our works are the evidence of our faith, not the cause of it. God gives us the free gift of grace. Through that gift, we are granted faith and we know that faith without works is dead. Not because we didn't merit salvation but because our faith was a dead faith. God wants us to live in faith which we are granted with grace. But we must answer the call. We must to the best of our ability obey Christ's commandments, not just agree with them.

To be a Christian is to live as a Christian and we know we live as a Christian by our actions. When we are made Christian we don't prop up our faith with works, we are granted the ability to produce good fruit BECAUSE we have been granted the free gift of grace.

So I completely agree with the statement or yours that I quoted because it illustrates that faith is what we have been granted and works are the fruits of the grace and faith that we were given.

I hope I am making sense but it feels like I'm going around in circles.

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I see works as believing everything in our Bible. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).