Saved by Grace doesn't mean our works don't matter. Ephesian's over all context screams this.

fhansen said:

...you've been influenced by a relatively new and novel gospel

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This is not true. Abraham saw Jesus' day and was glad. Moses wrote about Him. Jeremiah wrote about the new covenant which the writer of Hebrews said Jesus mediates. Paul described the glory of "Christ in you" and proclaimed the excellence of participating in the glory as we see it as if looking in a mirror. Jesus thanked the Father for the most excellent part of eternal life, that being "that they may know you, the one true God, and Jesus Christ whom you sent." John spoke of the anointing that we receive from Him that abides in us and teaches us concerning all things. And Paul told Timothy that he should trust what He teaches him because he knows he learned it from God.

Having an intimate personal relationship with the God who created us is not a new thing, though the people before Christ's death, burrial, and resurrection did not experience it the same way we do today. But they still saw Him and knew Him.

fhansen said:

, and might want to give James 3:1 some serious thought.

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Fortunately, I have an intimate personal relationship with the Lord, and He never fails to direct my path in the right direction and He never fails to warn me when I am about to make false steps. That's not to say that I flawlessly heed every instruction. On many occasions He has led me to correct my missteps. And yes, trying to help people out of the religious funk they are in is particularly challenging.

B Griffin said:

Not so short:

"And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish" (Jn 10:28).​

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Yes, whoever "they" were.

B Griffin said:

This is not true. Abraham saw Jesus' day and was glad. Moses wrote about Him. Jeremiah wrote about the new covenant which the writer of Hebrews said Jesus mediates. Paul described the glory of "Christ in you" and proclaimed the excellence of participating in the glory as we see it as if looking in a mirror. Jesus thanked the Father for the most excellent part of eternal life, that being "that they may know you, the one true God, and Jesus Christ whom you sent." John spoke of the anointing that we receive from Him that abides in us and teaches us concerning all things. And Paul told Timothy that he should trust what He teaches him because he knows he learned it from God.

Having an intimate personal relationship with the God who created us is not a new thing, though the people before Christ's death, burrial, and resurrection did not experience it the same way we do today. But they still saw Him and knew Him.

Click to expand...

The concept that sin doesn't matter for a believer, and that he cannot compromise and break that relationship, is quite new.

B Griffin said:

"Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness" (Ro 4:4–5).
I contend that a person does not earn (or maintain) his salvation through obedience to God's laws. If he could, then salvation would be owed to him, making God a debtor, and would not be a product of God's grace. A person is gifted his salvation when he does not work for it but believes in the God who saves the ungodly. That person's trust in God is counted as righteousness.

There will never be a successful replacement of "salvation by grace through faith" with "salvation by works through faith".

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God, alone, justifies the ungodly, works of the law count for nothing. This is not new. But one must throw out half of
Scripture to think that, once freely justified, on cannot forfeit that state of justice by living unjustly, and not doing those things which we're commanded to do, mocking God and trampling upon the work of His Son.

B Griffin said:

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (Ga 5:16–18)
There is not a person in whom Christ lives who thinks the way you describe. Every person "who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him" (1 Co 6:17). Every single one of them wants to live a life free of sin because he detests sin.

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I wonder why we're commanded, instructed, exhorted, warned, and admonished, then, to refrain from such things, and to make the effort do other things, if, as you apparently say, believers are now perfect, unable to sin, never desiring to sin again. I remember an AOG pastor I once had who actually said that. Later his church was split apart due to his infidelity. And, as with any relationship, we can be unfaithful to God, failing to remain in Him as were told we must. No one can predict their own perseverance.

fhansen said:

The concept that sin doesn't matter for a believer... is quite new.

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The concept that sin does not matter for a believer is your concept, not mine. As I said, "There is not a person in whom Christ lives who thinks the way you describe. Every person "who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him" (1 Co 6:17). Every single one of them wants to live a life free of sin because he detests sin." You seem to be ignorant of the fact that it is our union with Christ that causes us to love the things of God on one hand and hate sin on the other.

fhansen said:

and that he cannot compromise and break that relationship is quite new.

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No, you can fight against it, but you can't win. Jesus told us that if we feed on Him we will live forever. None of the supposed loopholes you and your compadres claim to have found impinge on the duration of eternal life. And the fact that you think the concept of eternal life is false and of new origin indicates your indoctrination has blinded you to its meaning and its origin.

fhansen said:

God, alone, justifies the ungodly, works of the law count for nothing. This is not new. But one must throw out half of
Scripture to think that, once freely justified, on cannot forfeit that state of justice by living unjustly, and not doing those things which we're commanded to do, mocking God and trampling upon the work of His Son.

Click to expand...

There is no salvation outside Jesus' sacrifice for our sins. How can you say on one hand that the "works of the law count for nothing" and say on the other hand that "living unjustly and not doing those things which we are commanded to do" causes us to forfiet eternal life? You can't see that you are contradicting yourself? Choose one or the other.

fhansen said:

I wonder why we're commanded, instructed, exhorted, warned, and admonished, then, to refrain from such things, and to make the effort do other things, if, as you apparently say, believers are now perfect, unable to sin, never desiring to sin again.

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I already explained the call to godly living. It is an admonishment to live out what is already inside. Victory over the flesh only comes when we walk in the Spirit. And these two things (the fact that we are alive on the inside and the fact that we should live it out) is evident in many Bible passages including, "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." (Ga 5:25)

fhansen said:

I remember an AOG pastor I once had who actually said that. Later his church was split apart due to his infidelity. And, as with any relationship, we can be unfaithful to God, failing to remain in Him as were told we must. No one can predict their own perseverance.

Click to expand...

According to Ray Summers, the Greek perfect tense "indicates a completed action with a resulting state of being. The primary emphasis is on the resulting state of being." The passive voice means the action is done to us, not something we do on our own. The indicative mood means that from the viewpoint of the speaker, in this case John inspired by the Holy Spirit, the action is viewed as actually taking place.

Words matter.

B Griffin said:

There is no salvation outside Jesus' sacrifice for our sins. How can you say on one hand that the "works of the law count for nothing" and say on the other hand that "living unjustly and not doing those things which we are commanded to do" causes us to forfiet eternal life? You can't see that you are contradicting yourself? Choose one or the other.

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There's no contradiction. Christ died so that, for one, I might become a "slave to righteousness", a "righteousness apart from the law". If I remain in Him, I will continue in that "slavery" which in truth is actually freedom. It's not either/or, it's a package. Anyone remaining in Him will walk in that righteousness. Anyone not walking in that righteousness has not remained in Him. Directly related to this, grace and faith must not be viewed as separable from personal righteousness; they are inseparable from it or they are not the real thing-we've resisted their work in us. We're saved from the penalty of sin because were forgiven of it, turned from it; it's taken away and we're saved unto righteousness and therefore no longer condemned as we now walk in the Spirit.

B Griffin said:

I already explained the call to godly living. It is an admonishment to live out what is already inside. Victory over the flesh only comes when we walk in the Spirit. And these two things (the fact that we are alive on the inside and the fact that we should live it out) is evident in many Bible passages including, "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." (Ga 5:25)

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I already explained that godly living by walking in the Spirit, overcoming sin, doing good, are all preconditions for eternal life in Scripture.

B Griffin said:

According to Ray Summers, the Greek perfect tense "indicates a completed action with a resulting state of being. The primary emphasis is on the resulting state of being." The passive voice means the action is done to us, not something we do on our own. The indicative mood means that from the viewpoint of the speaker, in this case John inspired by the Holy Spirit, the action is viewed as actually taking place.

Words matter.

Click to expand...

We are saved as we turn from our old life and believe in the Giver of life. There's a cooperative effort taking place as God calls and moves us, and we don't resist, we respond. And that cooperation must continue to take place throughout our lives. We can compromise that state of being. What's done can be undone, or left uncared for, uncultivated. That's how the early churches, in the east and the west which heard and received and proclaimed the words before they were put to paper to form what later became the new testament, always understood those words. We must remain vigilant. We must make effort. We must care. Early fathers agree as well.

And many people today, regular Joes along with the most erudite scholars, based on their understanding of Scripture, agree with that position. Other scholars and folks like yourself have differing positions. And all positions generally have some level of plausibility. So much for Sola Scriptura. Biblical exegesis alone is not the answer regardless of which side one ends up on. Even Luther predicted it could open up a can of worms, which it did.

Again, love is both a gift and a choice, to accept and express and grow in that gift. Without choice involved it could not even be love.

B Griffin said:

The concept that sin does not matter for a believer is your concept, not mine. As I said, "There is not a person in whom Christ lives who thinks the way you describe. Every person "who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him" (1 Co 6:17). Every single one of them wants to live a life free of sin because he detests sin." You seem to be ignorant of the fact that it is our union with Christ that causes us to love the things of God on one hand and hate sin on the other.

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I don't know why you would say so since that's been my position here since the beginning. Anyway, your position that we cannot turn away from or neglect that union, and in any case fail to live as a child of God should, is untenable. So which is it? Do we live rightly, overcoming sin as if that just happens automatically for a believer, or do we just "count all my sins as forgiven -- past, present, and future", as you mentioned in post #113, as if that automatically takes care of the issue of sin regardless of what we do.

He that does not love me, does not keep my teachings.
John 14:24 [ John 14:21-22, Matthew 28:19-20 ]

If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let that person be Anathema! Oh Lord Come!
1 Corinthians 16:22


My sheep hear my voice......
John 10:27

I say unto you that hear.....
Luke 6:27


Whoever hears these sayings of mine and does not do them
shall be likened unto a foolish man that built his house upon the sand....
Matthew 7:26-27

...and they were astonished at His doctrine...
Matthew 7:28

If anyone transgresses (1 John 3:4 disobeys the Torah) and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ,
they do not have God. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 1:9 kjv

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching,
do not invite him into your house, neither bid him God speed
2 John 1:10-11

There is God's Salvation, and He is : Christ on the Cross.

If you can do that as a "work" or as your "discipleship" then let see you try it....

So, the issue is, that many do not understand that Salvation is ONLY and ALWAYS and FOREVER = based on the Cross of Christ.

And once you understand that, then all notions of "performing for God so that i dont go to Hell", will end, and you'll stop being a Hebrews 6:1 .

Most Christians will never make it.

Aviel said:

There is God's Salvation, and He is : Christ on the Cross.

If you can do that as a "work" or as your "discipleship" then let see you try it....

So, the issue is, that many do not understand that Salvation is ONLY and ALWAYS and FOREVER = based on the Cross of Christ.

And once you understand that, then all notions of "performing for God so that i dont go to Hell", will end, and you'll stop being a Hebrews 6:1 .

Most Christians will never make it.

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If we could have saved ourselves, then Christ would not have had to die for our sins. It amazes me how many people think they must earn the right to be saved. I don't know how many will never make it, but I know none will make it without all their sins being forgiven.

fhansen said:

I don't know why you would say so since that's been my position here since the beginning. Anyway, your position that we cannot turn away from or neglect that union, and in any case fail to live as a child of God should, is untenable. So which is it? Do we live rightly, overcoming sin as if that just happens automatically for a believer, or do we just "count all my sins as forgiven -- past, present, and future", as you mentioned in post #113, as if that automatically takes care of the issue of sin regardless of what we do.

Click to expand...

The will to live in perfect harmony with all that God is and represents is present in us because we were joined with Christ and became one spirit with Him when He came to live in our hearts. But we also can plainly see that our performance of that will is greatly lacking because of the weakness of our own flesh. Seeing plainly that our personal performance in the flesh falls way short of our godly desires in the inward man makes us feel miserable, naked, wretched, and poor and causes us to say things like, "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?" (Ro 7:24). But we do not lose heart because we also know that Christ has delivered us (Ro 7:25) and "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus" (Ro 8:1).

In sending His Son to die for our sins, God did for us what the law could not do. Because of the weakness of our own flesh, the law could not justify us. It could only condemn us. But with Christ living in our hearts, the law's requirement for righteousness is fulfilled in us. (Ro 8:3-4). Now, we see that we no longer live in the flesh, but we live in the Spirit (i.e., our lives are hidden with Christ in God) (Ro 8:9).

What is our future with God? He will give life to our mortal bodies upon our physical deaths through His Spirit who lives in us just as He raised Jersus from the dead.

So, yes, all my sins are forgiven (past, present, and future) and there will never be any condemnation to me because Jesus paid the price for all my sins. The will to live a godly live will never turn into repudiation of God because I became one spirit with the Lord when I was joined to Him. And when I die, He will give life to my mortal body through His Spirit who lives in me. As a result, I am able to serve Him in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Ro 7:6).

What you have been saying from the beginning is that we are responsible for conforming our flesh to God's will, that our salvation depends on our success, and that our desire to please God is a decision we make on our own and is subject to change. None of this is consistent with my statements that our union with Christ is the thing that causes us to love the things of God on one hand and hate sin on the other.

If by saved by grace you mean saved from your sins and saved from the consequences of it than, yes we are saved by grace. Works are an essential fruit of salvation if works don't show up in a professing Christians life than they never knew Jesus.

It's not that works are required for salvation but it's more that every regenerated believer happily does the good works that God prepared in advance for them to do as a natural result of salvation.

B Griffin said:

"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find." (Ro 7:18)​

The will to live in perfect harmony with all that God is and represents is present in us because we were joined with Christ and became one spirit with Him when He came to live in our hearts. But we also can plainly see that our performance of that will is greatly lacking because of the weakness of our own flesh. Seeing plainly that our personal performance in the flesh falls way short of our godly desires in the inward man makes us feel miserable, naked, wretched, and poor and causes us to say things like, "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?" (Ro 7:24). But we do not lose heart because we also know that Christ has delivered us (Ro 7:25) and "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus" (Ro 8:1).

In sending His Son to die for our sins, God did for us what the law could not do. Because of the weakness of our own flesh, the law could not justify us. It could only condemn us. But with Christ living in our hearts, the law's requirement for righteousness is fulfilled in us. (Ro 8:3-4). Now, we see that we no longer live in the flesh, but we live in the Spirit (i.e., our lives are hidden with Christ in God) (Ro 8:9).

10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (Ro 8:10–11)​

​

What is our future with God? He will give life to our mortal bodies upon our physical deaths through His Spirit who lives in us just as He raised Jersus from the dead.

So, yes, all my sins are forgiven (past, present, and future) and there will never be any condemnation to me because Jesus paid the price for all my sins. The will to live a godly live will never turn into repudiation of God because I became one spirit with the Lord when I was joined to Him. And when I die, He will give life to my mortal body through His Spirit who lives in me. As a result, I am able to serve Him in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Ro 7:6).

What you have been saying from the beginning is that we are responsible for conforming our flesh to God's will, that our salvation depends on our success, and that our desire to please God is a decision we make on our own and is subject to change. None of this is consistent with my statements that our union with Christ is the thing that causes us to love the things of God on one hand and hate sin on the other.

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What you're failing to understand is the big picture in all this. Grace precedes everything, and yet man can resist that grace, can resist God, IOW, and has been doing so beginning in Eden. The struggle between my will being done and God's will being done is a struggle that involves my coming to see who's will is superior, and coming to agree and become aligned with His. To the extent that I do so, coaxed and moved by grace, my justice/righteousness is already the greater. It's not just a matter of believing in Him; it's a matter of becoming like Him, of increasingly valuing what He does as we see that He was right after all, and are reconciled with Him now. "We love Him because He first loved us." We love because He loves. It's a matter of who one hangs out with.

Scripture speaks of the need to overcome sin, to walk in the light, to refrain from deeds of the flesh, that sinners won’t be entering heaven. It even tells us that our sins won’t be forgiven if we don’t forgive others. IOW, those who don’t love aren’t God’s children. This is all addressed to those who’ve heard the word and have turned to Christ, accepting forgiveness of their sins and becoming new creations in Him.

And yet we’ll continue to sin. What’s the answer? Is it carte blanc forgiveness of sin, or must we overcome sin/be righteous to one degree or another now? The bible speaks of certain kinds of sins, sins of great seriousness or gravity, that will keep us from heaven. Those sins oppose and obstruct life in the Spirit by their nature; such sins are directly opposed to love of God and neighbor. The bible also speaks about those who don’t do good for others-and how that will keep them from heaven. Faith is to turn to God. If that makes no change in us, then what worth is to Him-or to us?

Under the New Covenant God isn’t expecting perfect sinlessness in this life, even if that is the ultimate goal as He certainly didn’t create man to sin. But He is expecting us to be on that path now, made evident by obedience and righteousness, by our fruit, which will be different for each of us, and to return to that path in repentance if we were to stray far off it, far from Him. There’s a story from the Eastern church that sheds some light on this.

A monk scandalized the local people at Mt Athos with his alcoholism. They were relieved when he died and related this to an Elder there. But the Elder told them that he had seen a battalion of angels come for the monk’s soul when he died.

He went on to tell them that the boy had been captured by the Turks when they conquered Asia Minor about 600 years ago and was forced along with other boys to work in the fields. Having taken him from his parents they gave the boy an alcoholic drink, “raki”, to keep him from crying so he could sleep. At a later date the boy told an elder that he was an alcoholic. The elder told him to do prostrations and pray every night to help him to reduce by one the glasses he drank. After a year he reduced the glasses from 20 to 19 and after many years he reduced down to 2-3 glasses which still affected him but he’d surely progressed.

The world for years saw an alcoholic monk who caused scandal, but God saw a fighter who fought a long struggle to reduce his passion. He did the best he could with what he’d been given.

Rom 8:33 NLT Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for His own? No one- For God Himself has given us right
standing with Himself.

Rom 3:26 To demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who
has faith in Jesus.

How is He the justifier of the one who has faith? He is the one who gave it to them. It is now UPON them.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and UPON all them that believe for there is no difference.

fhansen said:

What you're failing to understand is the big picture in all this.

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I see the big picture. The OP's title says it all, "Saved by Grace doesn't mean our works don't matter. Ephesian's over all context screams this."

There is a large contingent within "Christianity" which does not recognize or understand the change of nature that occurs when Jesus comes to live in a person's heart. Part of the problem is lack of education (notably stemming from doctrinal inertia). But lack of education is not a valid excuse for those in whom Christ lives because every person in whom Christ lives has Him as their teacher and guide. If they hear Him, trust Him, and learn from Him they are able to unwind the false doctrines which keep them from understanding what happened inside when they first put their trust in Christ and what is happening inside them now.

Why is this important, and why is this central to the big picture? Because people who understand that they have become "partakers of the divine nature" also understand that they have "escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust" (2 Pe 1:4). They undertand that they have true righteousness and holiness in the inner man (Eph 4:24) by virtue of their union with Christ (1 Cor 6:17). They understand that they do not need to create their own righteousness through obedience to the law (Phil 3:9). They understand that the flesh still exists in this life, that it is in adversarial opposition to the Spirit, that they do not fulfill the desires of the flesh only when they walk in the Spirit, and that walking in the Spirit is not synonymous with placing themselves under the law to obey it (Gal 5:16-18).

Samson2021 said:

Rom 8:33 NLT Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for His own? No one- For God Himself has given us right
standing with Himself.

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The born again are "chosen" "in Christ"........not pre-destined.

Aviel said:

The born again are "chosen" "in Christ"........not pre-destined.

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Rom 8:29-30 For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the Image of His Son, that He might be the first born
among many brethren.
And those He predestined, He also called(election into Christ); those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

Eph 1:4-6 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before
Him in love: having pre-destinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ unto Himself,
according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of TIMES He might gather together in one(body) all things in Christ, both which
are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the
counsel of His own will:
That we should be to the praise of His glory who FIRST trusted in Christ.

If we have been predestined to be the FIRST to trust in Christ, how many more will there be? And as there was a predestination
determined by the Father before the world began, who would be left out when He is finished? NONE As Eph 1:10 tells us that ALL things
will be gathered together IN CHRIST once the TIMES have been fulfilled.
Also 1 Co 15:22-23 As in Adam ALL die, even so IN CHRIST shall ALL be made alive, BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER....................

As we see there are those who first trusted in Christ that were predestined to do so by Gods election/calling of them,
then ALL will be of the same group who trust in Christ as they will have become a part of the same body (Christ) once the
TIMES have been fulfilled.

B Griffin said:

I see the big picture. The OP's title says it all, "Saved by Grace doesn't mean our works don't matter. Ephesian's over all context screams this."

There is a large contingent within "Christianity" which does not recognize or understand the change of nature that occurs when Jesus comes to live in a person's heart. Part of the problem is lack of education (notably stemming from doctrinal inertia). But lack of education is not a valid excuse for those in whom Christ lives because every person in whom Christ lives has Him as their teacher and guide. If they hear Him, trust Him, and learn from Him they are able to unwind the false doctrines which keep them from understanding what happened inside when they first put their trust in Christ and what is happening inside them now.

Why is this important, and why is this central to the big picture? Because people who understand that they have become "partakers of the divine nature" also understand that they have "escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust" (2 Pe 1:4). They undertand that they have true righteousness and holiness in the inner man (Eph 4:24) by virtue of their union with Christ (1 Cor 6:17). They understand that they do not need to create their own righteousness through obedience to the law (Phil 3:9). They understand that the flesh still exists in this life, that it is in adversarial opposition to the Spirit, that they do not fulfill the desires of the flesh only when they walk in the Spirit, and that walking in the Spirit is not synonymous with placing themselves under the law to obey it (Gal 5:16-18).

Click to expand...

Sure, but I never suggested that walking in the Spirit is synonymous with placing themselves under the law, just the opposite in fact. A person walking in the Spirit doesn't even need to hear the law in order to be obedient or righteous. He "happens" to obey the law with a righteousness that is apart from the law. That's not the question anyway though. The question is whether or not partakers of the divine nature can refrain from partaking, whether they can turn back away from God and lose their status as His adopted sons and daughters. To the extent that they truly remain in Him their lives will reflect it, and must do so. Itis important to know that one's will remains involved in this from beginning to end. That's what "Christianity" has always known and taught until some novel ideas came along. There's been some misunderstandings resulting from faulty education.

fhansen said:

The question is whether or not partakers of the divine nature can refrain from partaking, whether they can turn back away from God and lose their status as His adopted sons and daughters.

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Like I said, "There is a large contingent within "Christianity" which does not recognize or understand the change of nature that occurs when Jesus comes to live in a person's heart." You are making my point for me.

When Peter wrote, that through the "exceedingly great and precious promises" we "may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust" (2 Pe 1:4), he was writing about the glories associated with becoming one spirit with God through union with Christ. When Jesus said, "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (Jn 3:6), he was speaking of a spirit that is birthed into existence by the Spirit of God. And when Jonh wrote, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God... who were born... of God" (Jn 1:12–13), he was writing about us becoming first generation offspring of the living God by way of God personally giving birth to us.

Salvation is not a "status" to be achieved, maintained, forsaken, or lost. It is a change of the human nature from being dead to God in trespasses and sins to being alive to God together with Christ through our resurrection from the dead together with Christ.