Once Saved, Always Saved?

yeshuaslavejeff said:

WELL.... ...... which side of the bed is right ? ONE SIDE GETS LEFT. ONE TAKEN.
Luke 17:34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one ...
biblehub.com/luke/17-34.htm
Bible Hub
That night two people will be asleep in one bed; one will be taken, the other left.

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Tuché

VanillaSunflowers said:

Thank God for the example we receive from living devils.

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And who are these "living devils" that you speak of?

Sgt Minuteman said:

No, Yeshua was rebuking him, not calling him a devil. He was rebuking the humanistic thought that comes from satan. Not calling Peter satan in the idea that Peter WAS Satan. Note that in scripture it says that the Devil entered into Judas. Luke 22:3.

Peter was a close disciple of God, but he rejected Jesus three times. Due to fear. But also note that the Holy Spirit was not present in the disciples at this time to give them power to witness and stand in the face of persecution. Pentecost had not occured yet, so Yeshua gave Peter the opportunity to "rededicate himself" to Yeshua by declaring his love for the Son 3 times to erase the 3 denials. We as christians have the Holy Spirit in us from DAY 1 if you truly repent. Merely raising you hand while nobody looks lest you be ashamed and saying the "sinners prayer" is not repentance from your sins. You have to stop sinning and let the Holy Spirit sanctify you and reprove you and chasten you. We are not perfected, but the work of the Holy Spirit continually perfects us and seals us until the Day.

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Ok...I smell what you are stepping in. Some believe that Jesus was literally rebuking Satan who was trying to put wicked thoughts in Peter's head. So the rebuke was not directed to Peter, but to Satan who was present.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

hahaha, yes..... Thank you and REJOICE ALWAYS !

I installed many, some up, some down, and a few sideways or pushbutton or slider up or down.

There's even some made, you just touch or put your hand close to or clap your hands together and whatever condition it's in , it changes to the next !

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Or when you have two switches that control one light, then it could be up or down to turn thr light on.[emoji4]

jason_delisle said:

Catholics are christians. They believe the gospel too. They believe that Jesus saves. Althought I think they add to the salvation process (which i do not agree), but they are saved nonetheless.

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Did I say they don't? I'm sorry if I insinuated that.

Scripture uses the language of both free will in response to God's call (if you seek me you will find me, Deuteronomy 4:29, Proverbs 8:17 & Jeremiah 29:13) and of election by God (Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated, Malachi 1:3 & Romans 9:13). It is important therefore not to throw either out because of human logic. There is no disagreement between Paul and John, or between Old Testament and New.

From what I have read of this thread, there is broad concensus that we are all sinners (Romans 3:23) and that Jesus died for our sins once and for all (Romans 6:10 & Hebrews 9:28). There is nothing that we can offer that can save ourselves. We all see that as followers of Christ we are called to be holy (Leviticus 20:26 & 1 Peter 1:16) and to deny ourselves and carry our crosses (Mat 16:24), but that we do stumble (James 3:2), and that when we do, we are to return to the Lord in repentance (and also confess to one another where we have wronged them, James 5:16). By the fruit of God's redeeming work in us (both in thought / character and in deed) we see that His Holy Spirit is working in us for salvation, so that we can say both that we are saved and that we will be saved.

We also see that there is no "sinner's prayer" in scripture, but that it this prayer is meant to point us to a true conversion and salvation, which God enables and sustains by means of a new spiritual birth and the indwelling of His Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14). We are not to "continue in sin so that grace may abound" (Romans 6:1). We are not to grieve the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30). We all see people, who, having put their hand to the plough, look back (Luke 9:62), who wither away due to the cares of the world (Matthew 13:22). True faith perseveres (there is a good article on "Grace to You" on this topic - http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A318/true-faith-perseveres). We look at those who fall away, and depending on whether we use the language of free will or election, we say that that person has fallen away from saving grace, or was never one of the elect and never born again.

We do not need to argue over the framing of the call, but we need to call all people to trust and believe in the Lord Jesus and to obey all that He commanded (Matthew 26:20). We are called to examine ourselves to see that we are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5). We are called to good works that God has prepared for us to walk in (Ephesians 2:10). We need to persevere in the faith, dying to self and to not follow false teachings. Our security comes from the fact that, as we believe and trust in Him (which will be evidenced by our works, James 2:18), we know that He is fathful and just to forgive us all of our sins (1 John 1:19) and that He is able to keep us until the dreadful day of the Lord (Jude 24-25), to be numbered with the saints and to live with God forever.

When we stand there, we will look back, and we will give glory to God only, and we will say, He has done all things well! Hallelujah!

1John2:4 said:

I'm Just going to post this verse again

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

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Written to the Hebrew folk in that day, warning them about almost confessing Jesus as Savior, then backing away.

And this one

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

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Written to Christian folk. Paul tells those whom he was once with to rejoice in their Faith, steadfastly studying Paul's writings and applying them: "Engage yourselves in the Truth you have received with respect and awe."

jason_delisle said:

Catholics are christians. They believe the gospel too. They believe that Jesus saves. Althought I think they add to the salvation process (which i do not agree), but they are saved nonetheless.

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thats like saying all basket ball players are saved lol.. you cant say that .. i would never say that about pentacostals . it sisnt true .juts because they are of a certain denomination does not mean they are save and not every one who claims to be christian is saved either ..
and one thing that displays a person is not saved is their lack of obedience .you can say your a follower of clinton all you like for example .. but if you vote for trump .. well i guess your not . so it is with faith , you can say your a follower of Jesus ,but if you follow after sin at the same time ,or follow a man made organisation ,or a man made office (which includesidolatries) then ..i guess your not .. its not ones words but ones action which displays that old proof pudding

jason_delisle said:

Or when you have two switches that control one light, then it could be up or down to turn thr light on.[emoji4]

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You put your left foot in,
You put your left foot out,
You put your left foot in,
And you shake it all about.

jason_delisle said:

Yep... her true nature is revealed and it doesn't look or smell christian-like.

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NO .. her not fully understood opinion was revealed and her momentary annoyance was revealed ..like mine is being now .. but her character was not revealed and certainly not up for judgment

yeshuaslavejeff said:

My experience with both sides is quite different - those who don't believe things contrary to Scripture take care to honor YHWH and guard Scripture and "work out their salvation (the way YHWH means this) with fear (the way YHWH means this) and trembling" We TREMBLE AT YHWH'S WORD , in JOYOUS RAMBUNCTIOUS EXTRAVAGANT GENEROUS WITHOUT MEASURE FREEDOM IN Y'SHUA and a totally clean conscience (no part nor present sins nor thoughts of sinning any more) ;
while those who don't care about their sin, not a clean conscience but a seared one, or a dead one, decided to keep on sinning and believe what they were told - "don't worry about sinning".
And so, they don't worry; no, not at all. And they don't turn to YHWH (repent).
Often, instead, they boast.
Oh well.

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In my years as a pastor I never experienced that atll. Maybe we minister to different peoples.

jason_delisle said:

I don't agree. The whole concept of eternal security or OSAS wasn't even a doctrine until the mid 16th century by John Calvin and for good reason. The Catholic Church in the 4th century did not believe it. The EO Church in the 11th century did not believe it. The early reformation and Martin Luthor did not believe it. It wasn't until John Calvin's doctrine on the predestination of the elect that OSAS became a thing. So why did it take over 1500 years for people to get it(OSAS) right?

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I think your incorrect. But no matter how much proof I give, no matter how much scripture I gave, You have given none. Please support you position with Scripture, then we can dialogue. Our opinions are just that.

farout said:

In my years as a pastor I never experienced that atll. Maybe we minister to different peoples.

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Interesting. Are you really saying that you never had people who obeyed God with their lips, but were far away from Him in their hearts (Isaiah 29:13 & Matthew 15:8)? And that you had no-one who was sexually immoral, an idolator or who were perjurers / liars etc (1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Timothy 1:10 & Revelation 21:8). My church has these. These are people who say that morality changes and therefore we don't need to follow Jesus' commands any more. Is it possible to be in a church and not have these? The Early Church certainly had them. And we were such as these.

muchado said:

Interesting. Are you really saying that you never had people who obeyed God with their lips, but were far away from Him in their hearts (Isaiah 29:13 & Matthew 15:8)? And that you had no-one who was sexually immoral, an idolator or who were perjurers / liars etc (1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Timothy 1:10 & Revelation 21:8). My church has these. These are people who say that morality changes and therefore we don't need to follow Jesus' commands any more. Is it possible to be in a church and not have these? The Early Church certainly had them. And we were such as these.

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Welcome to CF, enjoy you time, get to know people you have a lot in common with.

Not the way you stated it when I read it. Sure people have all kinds of struggles with salvation. More often that not those who were having big difficulties were ones that really did not know the Lord. Many who doubted they were saved were avoiding responsible for sin in their life, sometimes sexual unfaithfulness. Perhaps the biggest was inappropriate content addiction. About 75% to 80% of all so called Christian men are regular viewers of inappropriate content. Don't forget 60% the pastors, they have reported about 60% are also viewers of inappropriate content. It makes me sick to think of refereeing someone to a pastor that watches inappropriate content.

People who struggle as Christians are not honest about sin in their lives. That is a problem, and sin causes people to doubt their salvation. But 1John 1: 9 must be taken seriously. Often God forgives us, but we can not forgive ourself.

1John2:4 said:

Did I say they don't? I'm sorry if I insinuated that.

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No problem. Context is hard to read sometimes.

jason_delisle said:

I don't agree. The whole concept of eternal security or OSAS wasn't even a doctrine until the mid 16th century by John Calvin and for good reason. The Catholic Church in the 4th century did not believe it. The EO Church in the 11th century did not believe it. The early reformation and Martin Luthor did not believe it. It wasn't until John Calvin's doctrine on the predestination of the elect that OSAS became a thing. So why did it take over 1500 years for people to get it(OSAS) right?

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I think you should read St. Augustine more carefully. In "On the Predestination of the Saints" book 2, Chapter 9 entitled
When Perseverance is Granted to a Person, He Cannot But Persevere.
Chapter 14
It is God's Grace Both that Man Comes to Him, and that Man Does Not Depart from Him.
Chapter 33.— God Gives Both Initiatory and Persevering Grace According to His Own Will.

He cites both Ambrose and Cyprian in making his case.

I'm surprised to read Jason saying what he did. Augustine's views are well-known and even opponents of John Calvin freely admit that his beliefs have some support from among the Early Church Fathers.

VanillaSunflowers said:

Don't warn me when I was speaking of scriptures. I suggest you take a moment and learn the Bible before personally attacking me again and violating the rules here to that end.
Doctrines of devils is scripture sir.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Timothy 4:1


1 John 4:1-3
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.


Revelation 20:2-5
And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

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Now to be fair.. Some would say that osas is a doctrine of devils.

Alithis said:

thats like saying all basket ball players are saved lol.. you cant say that .. i would never say that about pentacostals . it sisnt true .juts because they are of a certain denomination does not mean they are save and not every one who claims to be christian is saved either ..
and one thing that displays a person is not saved is their lack of obedience .you can say your a follower of clinton all you like for example .. but if you vote for trump .. well i guess your not . so it is with faith , you can say your a follower of Jesus ,but if you follow after sin at the same time ,or follow a man made organisation ,or a man made office (which includesidolatries) then ..i guess your not .. its not ones words but ones action which displays that old proof pudding

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It was a general comment. I guess i probably should have said was, "just because someone is Catholic, doesn't mean their not Christian".

Alithis said:

NO .. her not fully understood opinion was revealed and her momentary annoyance was revealed ..like mine is being now .. but her character was not revealed and certainly not up for judgment

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I can see how my comment could be seen as a personal attack. So that is my fault and I apologize. I was in no way trying to tell Vanillasunflower that she was not a Christian. I was sarcasticly saying that her behavior was unbecomming as a christian. If that makes sense. Either way, I apologize for the way it came across.