Debate - On Confusion of the term "mother of God" in reference to the Blessed Virgin

<Staff Edit>I have used the Scripture that you provided earlier to show you that Jesus has always been the Son of God while also being the Son of man; else what does the Union of The Holy Spirit and Mary mean? Your posts seem to indicate that no such thing took place, for which you have not provided evidence, Scriptural or otherwise.

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

Jesus is identical to God's Word.
The Virgin Mary bore Jesus.
Therefore, Mary is the mother of God.

Objection: How can a human give birth to divinity? A divine side? The Godhead?

Answer: Divinity, a divine side, or the godhead, do not exist of themselves. They only exist as made real in the Persons of God. Mary did not give birth to a humanity or divinity, a human side or a divine side. Rather she gave birth to God's Word, the Person, who is both Divine and human.

God can typically mean either a Trinitarian Person, all Three Persons, or Divinity. Here, we mean a Trinitarian Person.

Hawkiz said:

How so? That 'title' would seem to lend itself to the heresy that Jesus wasn't God?

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No, because He was born from Mary as a Man, the Son of Man, yet being the Word (but incarnate), which is God.

That seems to classify 'Jesus of Nazareth' as just a regular guy...and I am proudly 'biased' on this: Jesus is God and Mary is His mother!

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So He's both !
But Mary is not the Mother of God, obviously.

Hieronymus said:

No, because He was born from Mary as a Man, the Son of Man, yet being the Word (but incarnate), which is God.So He's both !
But Mary is not the Mother of God, obviously.

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Yes, He is and always has been...both.

But no, Mary did not give birth to only the human part of Jesus...she gave birth to a total Jesus; just as your mother did not give birth to partial you, but gave birth to all of you.

And again. Mary gave birth to Jesus. Jesus is God. Mary is thus the mother of God. Elizabeth says as much in Scripture in Luke 1:39-56. In verse 43 specifically we find 'the mother of my Lord' (capitalized even). Jesus has not yet been born and yet He is referred to as the Son of our Lord. There is no verse where Jesus is referenced as the human offspring of Mary but later becoming the Son of God is there? No. Jesus was always both.

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

The Early Church Fathers and the fathers of the reformation would faint, reading some of the theology in this thread.

<Staff Edit>
I give you John 1:14. "The Word was made flesh" not "The Word became both a spiritual side and a human side."

GoingByzantine said:

The Early Church Fathers and the fathers of the reformation would faint, reading some of the theology in this thread.

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Yes, and Rob Bell & Brian McLaren are loving it.

Admin Hat...

I have closed this thread pending review. In a number of instances, members have oversteped the statement of purpose for TT; specifically the part about being "respectful". Likewise, there is some theology being promoted in here that is at odds with CF's statement of faith; the Nicene Creed.

This is a good topic for this forum but considering this is Traditional Theology; it should be more of an affirmation than a full blown debate. Such debates are a better fit for the Mariology sub-forum.

I will be consulting with the original poster before deciding how this thread will move forward.

Please be patient; I have a lot on my plate this week end.

Please hold off on further discussion on this topic, until we figure out how it's going to proceed.

Thanks for your patience in advance;

Mark
CF Admin

MarkRohfrietsch said:

Admin Hat...

I have closed this thread pending review. In a number of instances, members have oversteped the statement of purpose for TT; specifically the part about being "respectful". Likewise, there is some theology being promoted in here that is at odds with CF's statement of faith; the Nicene Creed.

This is a good topic for this forum but considering this is Traditional Theology; it should be more of an affirmation than a full blown debate. Such debates are a better fit for the Mariology sub-forum.

I will be consulting with the original poster before deciding how this thread will move forward.

Please be patient; I have a lot on my plate this week end.

Please hold off on further discussion on this topic, until we figure out how it's going to proceed.

Thanks for your patience in advance;

Mark
CF Admin

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OK...

This thread has been moved here from Traditional Theology to allow a free debate on the nature of how one refers to Mary.

Since this is a Christian Only forum all posts must conform to the Christian Forums Statement of Faith; which is the Nicene Creed; in particular:


And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)

You will note that this thread has been cleaned of all posts that assert and promote non Christian (i.e. non Nicene) theology; particularly Arianism.

While these posts were in violaiton of our rules, no staff actions were issued up to this point; but from this point on, no further grace will be extended and additional violations will result in staff actions including warnings, infractions and even restriction of access to various forums and even CF itself.
Keep the rubber on the road; i.e. keep it civil, keep it on topic.

Happy debating,

Mark
CF Admin

SkyWriting said:

This one covers it. How would God increase in wisdom?

Luke 2:40
The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.

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Jesus, himself, said that while he was here on earth, he had never left his Father's side. And no, I'm not going to look up the quote for you.

You will never ever understand Christian theology, since you seek futilely to understand the Christian Mysteries, which are paradoxes. Christian theology has been built up, like science, by using the paradoxes/mysteries, as staging posts, springboards, from which to proceed with further investigation into the prosaically intelligible truths, intelligible to our analytical minds. The deepest truths are all as unfathomably paradoxical, absolutely counter-rational as the Holy Trinity, cognitively depending on the spiritual insight of the unitive intelligence.

The sovereign irony is that this holds increasingly true in relation to physics, in terms of the 'quantum' world, i.e. the world at the microscopic level. And for all the hoo-haa about Stephen Hawkins, no major progress seems to have been made in astrophysics, since Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson*, who discovered the background radiation from the Big Bang, which had been predicted by Belgian priest, Georges Lemaitre. Indeed, they seem to be always pointing to ever greater mysteries. As an eastern sage once remarked : 'Sell you intelligence and buy wisdom.

I believe in a cack-handed sort of way, only to avoid rationally explaining the fine-tuning of the universe in a non-deistic way, contemporary astrophysicists seem to me to have come close to a glancing ricochet on the only world-view that fits all the facts, first alluded to by a Kabbalist, centuries ago, who stated that when a person dies, a whole world dies with him.

It seems to me that we each live in a little world of our own, integrated and coordinated by God into forming the world of our senses, of the old, mechanistic, classical physics. However, at the quantum level, the seams, the joins, are manifested. Indeed, for a long time philosophers of science have spoken about, not 'objective reality, but 'inter-subjective reality'. Our coming into the world alone and departing in like fashion, seems to do nothing to detract from this paradigm. But I seem to have digressed....!

* See this link : http://www.reasons.org/articles/big-bang---the-bible-taught-it-first

paul becke said:

Jesus, himself, said that while he was here on earth, he had
never left his Father's side. And no, I'm not going to look up the quote for you.

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I don't require people to check their references.
That results in much funnyer conversation.

17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.
http://biblehub.com/john/1-18.htm

paul becke said:

Jesus, himself, said that while he was here on earth, he had never left his Father's side. And no, I'm not going to look up the quote for you.

You will never ever understand Christian theology, since you seek futilely to understand the Christian Mysteries, which are paradoxes. Christian theology has been built up, like science, by using the paradoxes/mysteries, as staging posts, springboards, from which to proceed with further investigation into the prosaically intelligible truths, intelligible to our analytical minds. The deepest truths are all as unfathomably paradoxical, absolutely counter-rational as the Holy Trinity, depending on the spiritual insight of the unitive intelligence.

The sovereign irony is that this holds increasingly true in relation to physics, in terms of the 'quantum' world, i.e. the world at the microscopic level. And for all the hoo-haa about Stephen Hawkins, no major progress seems to have been made in astrophysics, since Arno Penzias discovered the background radiation from the Big Bang, which had been predicted by Belgian priest. Indeed, they seem to be always pointing to ever greater mysteries. As an eastern sage once remarked : 'Sell you intelligence and buy wisdom.

I believe in a cack-handed sort of way, only to avoid rationally explaining the fine-tuning of the universe in a non-deistic way, contemporary astrophysicists seem to me to have come close to a glancing ricochet on the only world-view that fits all the facts, first alluded to by a Kabbalist, centuries ago, who stated that when a person dies, a whole world dies with them. It seems to me that we each live in a little world of our own, integrated and coordinated by God into forming the world of our senses, of the old, mechanistic, classical physics. However, at the quantum level, the seams, the joins, are manifested. Indeed, for a long time philosophers of science have spoken about, not 'objective reality, but 'inter-subjective reality'. Our coming into the world alone and departing in like fashion, seems to do nothing to detract from this paradigm. But I see to have digressed....!

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These so-called paradoxical truths are in point of fact largely the result of muddled thinking on the part of the fathers.

The confusion of this debate seems to arise from a failure to explain the precise sense in which the child Jesus was and was not fully divine. If one invokes the creeds and replies, "Jesus was born with both a divine nature and a human nature," then 2 questions arise: (1) Exactly what do you mean by "divine nature?" (2) What exactly is the nature of this hypostatic union of divinity and humanity? This discussion has prompted me to consider starting a thread that addresses these 2 questions biblically.

Hoghead1 said:

These so-called paradoxical truths are in point of fact largely the result of muddled thinking on the part of the fathers.

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Sure. What did they know !?!

Deadworm said:

The confusion of this debate seems to arise from a failure to explain the precise sense in which the child Jesus was and was not fully divine. If one invokes the creeds and replies, "Jesus was born with both a divine nature and a human nature," then 2 questions arise: (1) Exactly what do you mean by "divine nature?" (2) What exactly is the nature of this hypostatic union of divinity and humanity? This discussion has prompted me to consider starting a thread that addresses these 2 questions biblically.

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It was important that Jesus be fully human, which means that he had to learn experientially, as he grew up, just like the rest of us. In fact, we are told that he learned obedience (evidently, to the Father's will) through suffering. So, that is something to bear in mind when we, personally, are under the blackjack.

In other words, as God he ordained that in his incarnation as Son, he should accept to be limited in his knowledge and understanding, as he grew up, in the same way that we are. However, presumably since he was so sensitive to his other personal nature as Holy Spirit, his understanding was so much greater and more ready than that of the Apostles, that it led to some, imo, amusing situations ; as, at other times, did his priorities.*

For example, I find the scene where Jesus becomes very exasperated at the incomprehension of Philip and Thomas that they hadn't understood the Trinity - which, the Church itself wasn't able to tease out of the scriptures until the first Council I think, in about 300 A.D. It also seems that he only allowed his fully-divine nature to show through, in situattions when it would be for our benefit. Although God is not too proud to use fear as a last resort in seeking our conversion, if we have the least capacity for love, almost invariably reserving his greatest miracles for his closest Apostles, it confirms the obvious truth, I suppose, that he was not interested in convincing those who only respected naked, worldly power. Who wants to see the monsters of history, for whom love never was, nor ever would be a consideration, in heaven ?

*Remember the scene where they were being jostled on all side by the crowd, and Jesus asked Peter who had touched him. Surely, there was a hint of exasperation, however respectfully expressed, in Peter's voice in his reply. i.e. how could he, Jesus, ask such a question, when they were being jostled about on all sides !

So many indications of the limitations on his divinity, and his submission to his humanity, with all its foibles. But with that enormous sense of responsibility he seems to have from an early age, I wonder if in heaven, his parents, uncles and aunts pull his leg, kid him about their memories of what a strange wee laddie he was ! I bet they have a great time there reminiscing about the better times they had on earth as an extended family. What mix-ups, I wonder, if any, occurred in their distribution of the food that the holy women brought to Jesus and the Apostles while he was preaching in the Galilee area. Little things like that, which scripture is of course silent about, austerely expressed as it is, even when describing humorously-human behaviour.