'If I could just hold you I wouldn't need to marry you.'

mreeed · Apr 30, 2016

I am trying to figure out: What is the best way of going about being friends with someone who is romantically attracted to me but with whom I can't see it working out?

He is something of a family friend, and I also work for him (now) casually in his self-employed business(es). We have both been single a long while, he was married 6 years, divorced for 20+, not really looking for anyone till he met me. I have had longer term friendships with several guys that I've led on without meaning to when I was younger, I have gotten better at avoiding this I think, but more recently it seems they lead themselves on. People seem to get attracted too soon before a friendship can develop for the right reasons, the concept of love at first sight is a pet peeve of mine. I'm tired of this dynamic and try to avoid these situations.

In this case, employment (starting from a past crisis situation) has led to a more real kind of friendship in the sense of better able to see each other as we are and getting past the politeness I have a tendency towards. He has his own unique brand of chaos and immaturity even though he is much older than me and attempts amazing things for God. We are similar in a number of ways, but not aligned. And I am very cautious, I like to be reliable and dependable and sometimes accused by him of not being a very good friend in emotional ways, comparing to other platonic friends of his who have been more affectionate. We've gone over many times that I don't see us being more than friends. I'm not immune to being attracted by him, but so far I've been able to avoid admitting it or showing it (I think) since I don't feel I can own it or commit to it and doesn't seem helpful.

So I was surprised when a week ago when he got a bit resentful and said something about my willingness to hug him giving him the idea I might change my mind. Mostly has been short hugs, only a few times has he dared a couple seconds more, I thought I was passive enough. Now I am leery to hug him at all and both of us wish he hadn't said that. I don't know the degree he meant it since it seems a bit inconsistent, maybe it was the heat of the moment, not a consistent thought.

We've had more of a daily skyping friendship in the last month or so, but now both making an effort to dial it back. But he is one of very few guys that seems committed to making a friendship work even if it is all it ever is and that is refreshing.(#1) I don't know if he is in denial or maybe I am, or maybe we can still figure something out that works for both of us. He mentioned offhand without pursuing it: 'If I could just hold you I wouldn't need to marry you.'(#2) Maybe not quite the way I would have said it and I'm afraid to explore it, but in certain ways it summarizes it for me too. Does anyone have experience or advice in trying to make that kind of friendship/ relationship (#1 or #2) work? What kind of friendships are appropriate while waiting vs giving up on the 'right one'? For what it's worth he spends winters out of country and is considering moving there, I believe I am to stay put. I am trying to be open to whatever God is telling me.

Catherineanne · Apr 30, 2016

mreeed said:
I am trying to figure out: What is the best way of going about being friends with someone who is romantically attracted to me but with whom I can't see it working out?

He is something of a family friend, and I also work for him (now) casually in his self-employed business(es). We have both been single a long while, he was married 6 years, divorced for 20+, not really looking for anyone till he met me. I have had longer term friendships with several guys that I've led on without meaning to when I was younger, I have gotten better at avoiding this I think, but more recently it seems they lead themselves on. People seem to get attracted too soon before a friendship can develop for the right reasons, the concept of love at first sight is a pet peeve of mine. I'm tired of this dynamic and try to avoid these situations.

In this case, employment (starting from a past crisis situation) has led to a more real kind of friendship in the sense of better able to see each other as we are and getting past the politeness I have a tendency towards. He has his own unique brand of chaos and immaturity even though he is much older than me and attempts amazing things for God. We are similar in a number of ways, but not aligned. And I am very cautious, I like to be reliable and dependable and sometimes accused by him of not being a very good friend in emotional ways, comparing to other platonic friends of his who have been more affectionate. We've gone over many times that I don't see us being more than friends. I'm not immune to being attracted by him, but so far I've been able to avoid admitting it or showing it (I think) since I don't feel I can own it or commit to it and doesn't seem helpful.

So I was surprised when a week ago when he got a bit resentful and said something about my willingness to hug him giving him the idea I might change my mind. Mostly has been short hugs, only a few times has he dared a couple seconds more, I thought I was passive enough. Now I am leery to hug him at all and both of us wish he hadn't said that. I don't know the degree he meant it since it seems a bit inconsistent, maybe it was the heat of the moment, not a consistent thought.

We've had more of a daily skyping friendship in the last month or so, but now both making an effort to dial it back. But he is one of very few guys that seems committed to making a friendship work even if it is all it ever is and that is refreshing.(#1) I don't know if he is in denial or maybe I am, or maybe we can still figure something out that works for both of us. He mentioned offhand without pursuing it: 'If I could just hold you I wouldn't need to marry you.'(#2) Maybe not quite the way I would have said it and I'm afraid to explore it, but in certain ways it summarizes it for me too. Does anyone have experience or advice in trying to make that kind of friendship/ relationship (#1 or #2) work? What kind of friendships are appropriate while waiting vs giving up on the 'right one'? For what it's worth he spends winters out of country and is considering moving there, I believe I am to stay put. I am trying to be open to whatever God is telling me.

I think the two of you would benefit from sitting down with your minister to agree some very clear boundaries to this relationship. This man needs, I think, to let go of the emotional manipulations, and he needs to hear what your pov is at this point, and give you the space to be who you are without interpreting more from it than is appropriate. A quick hug certainly ought not to indicate anything more than friendly affection between friends.

If that does not work the only way forward is for you to find another place to work.

tdidymas · Apr 30, 2016

You definitely need to set boundaries and be committed to it. From your conversation, it appears that you are giving him mixed signals. If I were you, I would:
1. Clearly communicate that I want only a friendship, and have no desire or intention for romance.
2. Stop hugging at all. Hugging for him seems to be an enablement of his fantasy passion.
3. The work environment is for work, and not for romance. If he violates your clearly stated boundaries, get another job. You should be open to this action, if you discover that your being there hinders him from getting his fantasies under control (meaning, he will violate your boundary).
Nip it in the bud, and the sooner, the better.
TD

dayhiker · Apr 30, 2016

When I meet a lady who I just want to be friends with, I always act like a friend.
If she does something that move towards romance .. say, remember we are good friends, don't do anything that will ruin that.

Catherineanne · Apr 30, 2016

tdidymas said:
You definitely need to set boundaries and be committed to it. From your conversation, it appears that you are giving him mixed signals. If I were you, I would:
1. Clearly communicate that I want only a friendship, and have no desire or intention for romance.
2. Stop hugging at all. Hugging for him seems to be an enablement of his fantasy passion.
3. The work environment is for work, and not for romance. If he violates your clearly stated boundaries, get another job. You should be open to this action, if you discover that your being there hinders him from getting his fantasies under control (meaning, he will violate your boundary).
Nip it in the bud, and the sooner, the better.
TD

No, she is not sending mixed signals at all. It is his misinterpretation which is wrong, not her signals. She has made it perfectly clear that she only wants to be friends; it is he who is expecting more, without any reason for doing so.

James of Arc · Apr 30, 2016

Catherineanne said:
No, she is not sending mixed signals at all. It is his misinterpretation which is wrong, not her signals. She has made it perfectly clear that she only wants to be friends; it is he who is expecting more, without any reason for doing so.

He is not misinterpretation what is going on. He is wanting a woman and he is going for it. His intentions are clear.

You seem to have a history of teasing or misleading, why is it happening again. Either get with the game or stop teasing and just straight out tell him you are not interested ever so he can go one with his life.

rickster · Apr 30, 2016

I don't think this friendship is going to work. You should keep distancing yourself from him. It's very hard for a man to go from attracted to you to only seeing you as a friend. Him still trying to be friends with you is disingenuous. He's very attracted based on that hug comment.

mreeed · Apr 30, 2016

tdidymas said:
You definitely need to set boundaries and be committed to it. From your conversation, it appears that you are giving him mixed signals. If I were you, I would:
1. Clearly communicate that I want only a friendship, and have no desire or intention for romance.
2. Stop hugging at all. Hugging for him seems to be an enablement of his fantasy passion.
3. The work environment is for work, and not for romance. If he violates your clearly stated boundaries, get another job. You should be open to this action, if you discover that your being there hinders him from getting his fantasies under control (meaning, he will violate your boundary).
Nip it in the bud, and the sooner, the better.
TD

I have clearly communicated this and I do not tease or flirt though he has said a couple times he thinks I speak in riddles (to try to avoid lying on occasion when I have felt attracted and he has questioned me simply because he wanted to talk about it). I take comfort and effort in being as consistent as I absolutely can, but chaos (for lack of a better word) doesn't make it easy. I hate to admit it but maybe you are right about the hugging given his second comment, hadn't thought of it that way. Though I also agree with Catherine, don't think I should be faulted for this. For the record I work for him mostly from home/remotely, and only casual now. Just doesn't seem fair that in taking the high road I can't even allow myself what should be considered innocent? I can continue to dial back and suck it up, I've had lots of practice after all, it's just discouraging...

Catherineanne · May 1, 2016

James of Arc said:
He is not misinterpretation what is going on. He is wanting a woman and he is going for it. His intentions are clear.

You seem to have a history of teasing or misleading, why is it happening again. Either get with the game or stop teasing and just straight out tell him you are not interested ever so he can go one with his life.

Your post is out of order. This woman is clear that they are friends and nothing more. The man reads normal everyday signals as indicators that he can have more, and yet you blame the woman for teasing? What is that all about?

That conclusion is complete balderdash. It is the kind of balderdash that leads to women wearing burkas, so that men do not led astray by their teasing behaviour. Men are responsible for their own actions, no matter how the woman behaves. This man needs to learn that no means no, and that friendship means just that; nothing more.

Catherineanne · May 1, 2016

mreeed said:
I have clearly communicated this and I do not tease or flirt though he has said a couple times he thinks I speak in riddles (to try to avoid lying on occasion when I have felt attracted and he has questioned me simply because he wanted to talk about it). I take comfort and effort in being as consistent as I absolutely can, but chaos (for lack of a better word) doesn't make it easy. I hate to admit it but maybe you are right about the hugging given his second comment, hadn't thought of it that way. Though I also agree with Catherine, don't think I should be faulted for this. For the record I work for him mostly from home/remotely, and only casual now. Just doesn't seem fair that in taking the high road I can't even allow myself what should be considered innocent? I can continue to dial back and suck it up, I've had lots of practice after all, it's just discouraging...

You are innocent. There is a lot of nonsense in this thread; ignore it.

The only reason your friend thinks you speak in riddles is that he is trying to read too much into innocent comments. If he would stop doing that he would find you are not speaking in riddles at all; you are being perfectly straightforward.

You know what friendship is, and you have tried to be a friend. From now on it seems you will have to remain friends from a greater distance. Friends can hug, and that is all very innocent. I would not hug this man any more; he is not treating you as a friend. And don't worry about fleeting moments of attraction; that happens. It doesn't mean that it is right to move to more than friendship, just that love is complex.

I am sorry this has happened; you don't deserve it. I hope you have other friends to help to support you through this, even if you don't tell them about it.

mreeed · May 1, 2016

Thank you to everyone who has responded.

Thank you for your wisdom and kind words Catherineanne, it is much appreciated. I agree with you but can also recognize that as we are both women we may have a slight bias on our objectivity.

I also appreciate the male perspective, even when too simplified or not completely thought-through since it helps me gain a better insight into what I am dealing with.

While I disagree with James of Arc's second paragraph, his first is dead-on. While still also agreeing with Catherineanne's paragraph which he was responding to, that on the whole I am not sending mixed signals, but it is his way of processing it that is messed up, not necessarily from misinterpretation.

Dayhiker, thank you for your good, simple overview of how a friendship should be.

Unfortunately, so many things fall into the category of subtle and small and I feel petty mentioning or refusing them, but it is what they add up to. What is a skype flower or teddy bear hug or increase in frequency of conversation here or there? How to end conversations that take on a life of their own? I have at other times said I don't talk to my other friends every day, why should I talk to you every day? Even if we seem to have more opportunity due to much more relaxed work situations. He respects that. We had talked for a month and for a week seen more of each other lately, but somewhat circumstantially, and I have been under alot of pressure in other areas of life lately and a friend who can be there for simple day to day is nice right now though usually I'm too independent (and leery) for that.

Rickster, his trying to be friends may be a little disingenuous right now, but I don't think he sees it in himself fully yet (but he is starting to).

He takes me at face value, which I am thankful for, but 'riddles' are harder to do that with, I suppose, and give him something for his mind to play with and hope with.

I think it may still be possible to be friends but perhaps we need a certain amount of time apart to clear the air and gain somewhat of a fresh start. He sees similar qualities in me as my brother who he admires, I believe he truly wants to be friends, but the other things he wants get in the way of treating me that way, especially if it can be made to look like just a friendship.

Like he knows better than to buy me flowers, but on the table after a festivity they were there for the taking and he offered them to me. I refused them (he connects it now that I didn't necessarily 'like' the skype flowers), but he took them along (it seemed within reason for him to take them for himself), (the hug comment came on the way home), he had to pick up a couple things he had left at my place (hold comment came there somewhere) and ended up leaving them lying on the cluttered end table. With a voicemail simply not to forget to put them in water. I left them there for a day and a half before sticking them in water. (I didn't tell him that part, but he saw them later, they still look ok.) Context also being a young widow friend of ours whom we have both somewhat separately mentored at various times, that was there with her brand-new boyfriend, and who is trying to return the favor by setting him up with someone ('like me but older' no less!). Out of respect for me, he has not mentioned to her his feelings for me. And he has had feelings for me for the 4ish years we've been friends. So I really cannot blame him for frustration coming out that day.

Catherineanne · May 2, 2016

mreeed said:
Thank you to everyone who has responded.

Thank you for your wisdom and kind words Catherineanne, it is much appreciated. I agree with you but can also recognize that as we are both women we may have a slight bias on our objectivity.

I am not sure that is true. Why on earth can we not be objective?

Being a woman has nothing to do with this; it is about having boundaries and respecting them. Men do not get a free ride to cross any boundary they feel like, and most would know that.

Unfortunately, so many things fall into the category of subtle and small and I feel petty mentioning or refusing them, but it is what they add up to. What is a skype flower or teddy bear hug or increase in frequency of conversation here or there? How to end conversations that take on a life of their own? I have at other times said I don't talk to my other friends every day, why should I talk to you every day?

Each of those small things is a boundary violation. Friends do not cross boundaries. Effectively each boundary violation tells you that your 'no' will not be listened to; extrapolate from that one and see where it gets you. Such boundary violation is not a good basis for any relationship at all.

dayhiker · May 2, 2016

mreeed,
I think you are doing just fine standing up and saying we are friends in a number of ways. So don't second guess yourself.
Friends can give flowers, take each other out to dinner and many other things.

He has a right to ask you out and even want to change the friendship into a romance. It happens quite often.

Maybe your feeling he is pushing more than you want to deal with. In that case, figure out a boundary that will set you free from that
pressure and ask him not to cross it. I would tell him why you have the feelings and after some thought you feel this boundary will help
you continue to be friends. Probably good to say, if that changes, if my feelings change, I will ask you out for example.

mreeed · May 2, 2016

Sorry Catherineanne, I did not mean to offend and see now that by adding what I said about appreciating the male perspective, what I said about a potential woman's bias didn't really add anything helpful. You chose your words carefully and well and they bear mulling over.

Also I should say that I appreciate what I understand as your woman's perspective in more nuancedly sensing my tone, and before I even kind of said it that this was something I might want to keep private, and hoping I have other support. I do have support, I have many beautiful people around me, but we are all busy so in some ways I suppose I get some support in the natural give and take of supporting others. First time I thought of it that way.

I wanted anyway to come back further to your comments, but ran out of time in my earlier post.

I have not known how to respond when he says I speak in riddles, but yes, to point back to everything else that is straightforward and ask him not to read into it, hopefully that will help me think better on my feet.

Definitions are good; "friends do not cross boundaries" is a good one. I guess we need to more clearly define what those boundaries are. I hope there is a way to do this in a few broad strokes to avoid being caught up in minutiae or seeming legalistic. "If you wouldn't say/do something to/for my brother, don't do it for me" could be one. Yet he would hug my brother too, so maybe then we come like you said to friends can do ___ but we have work to do before we achieve friendship.

I think to be fair, he should tell me of his 'boundaries' also, what lines I also need to stay away from to avoid sending any wrong messages or false hopes of my intentions. In fact, to the degree he is able to be straightforward and clear, it might eliminate the need for some of my own. Hopefully we can create a 'safe zone' in which both of us can relax.

I don't know that my example was representative, it was under duress, that was probably as directly pushy as he has gotten, but it was informative in ways others may not have been. I cannot say some of those little things were actual boundaries to fault him on if I didn't say anything, but I get the gist of what you're saying and good to keep in mind. But I think he was not meaning to cross boundaries so much as push them (at least in effect, if not intention). But making better efforts now.

Obviously I cannot control or dictate his feelings, I am not looking to. If he feels that way so be it, but that has to be separated from friendship. But simply listening to him share his feelings even if it is not pushy but just a simple outlet is hard, I feel like I have no appropriate responses. Any ideas anyone?

He has said something about needing time to 'wean' himself off me. I think I am ok with this if the direction of behaviour is clear, changes aren't exactly easy for me either even if I know they are for the best.

mreeed · May 2, 2016

Dayhiker I mean to get back to you, but may not be till tomorrow.

mreeed · May 2, 2016

Dayhiker I appreciate your additional post, I want to get back to you, but may not be till tomorrow.

mreeed · May 4, 2016

dayhiker said:
mreeed,
I think you are doing just fine standing up and saying we are friends in a number of ways. So don't second guess yourself.
Friends can give flowers, take each other out to dinner and many other things.

He has a right to ask you out and even want to change the friendship into a romance. It happens quite often.

Maybe your feeling he is pushing more than you want to deal with. In that case, figure out a boundary that will set you free from that
pressure and ask him not to cross it. I would tell him why you have the feelings and after some thought you feel this boundary will help
you continue to be friends. Probably good to say, if that changes, if my feelings change, I will ask you out for example.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

I don't take significant expressions of feelings necessarily as pressure to respond in kind, but the pressure to find an appropriate response is considerable, maybe it amounts to the same thing. I know he has a right to his desires, and I don't like to censor people, it just drives it underground and makes it hard to gauge change.

Hmm...the hugs hadn't seemed like pressure, but their connection to his deep feelings seems to put them off limits right now. The same might be said for verbally expressing feelings I suppose.

Flowers. Hugs. Wanting me to work more for him. I just found out going to the same congregation (irregularly) is apparently primarily because of me.

Seems to be a fine line between pressure (requiring overt response) and treatment as more than a friend in subtle ways, but friendship is the cover (requiring discretion/indirect response, or called out directly). Would you agree? Do you think the difference matters? But both seem to need some kind of boundary.

Or have I stated my case well enough that the only boundary needed is for my own comfort level and it is only his own deal the risks he wants to take with his heart? Though I think if he is being objective he would also see his own need for boundaries.

Saying I would initiate something if my feelings change, yes, that ball has been thrown plenty of times, it is in my court, for direct asking might take off a bit of pressure.

dayhiker · May 4, 2016

I still like how your thinking this thru. Feels like your gaining insight into the situation as time goes one.

I've been working on communication the last few years because I was pretty bad at it for a long time.

I'm thinking if might be good to talk with him with the thought of agreeing on some kind of agreement on boundaries.

Outline of how I'd look for the conversation to go ...
Maybe start by talking openly that you only are interested in being a friend. Don't see that changing.
You feel he wants you two to be come a romantic couple.

Let him express his side.

Since we have these unmatched feelings for each other what boundaries would work so that I'm comfortable?

mreeed · May 5, 2016

I wonder if maybe hugging is ok in a group setting among other friends, but one on one it is different? Handshakes are awkward and formal, and a hand could be held too long, and high fives don't always strike the right tone, maybe something like hand on shoulder is better, simple and also easy to move away from if needed.

dayhiker · May 5, 2016

I hug a lot of people, I view hugging as healthy of people want to be hugged.
A hug should be human to human contact with not agenda. If as in this case the hug had an agenda of I want to be your BF while its not a desire of
the other person than that agenda makes it an uncomfortable hug.

'If I could just hold you I wouldn't need to marry you.'

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