socialism

Rhamiel · Feb 12, 2016

Mountain_Girl406 said:
I'd like to be a better one, but if I have to embrace Laissez Faire/ Tea Party values in order to do so, it's unlikely to happen

the Catholic Church is not for laissez faire capitalism either

and I do not think anyone here has advocated for that system

Mountain_Girl406 · Feb 12, 2016

Rhamiel said:
the Catholic Church is not for laissez faire capitalism either

and I do not think anyone here has advocated for that system

Where are all the posts telling us we can't be Catholic and Capitalist? (Since no one wants to discern between Marxism, Communism, and Socialism, I think we could also equate Lassiez Faire capitalism to US Capitalism ). The anti communist quotes by past Popes get trotted out here about every month lately, and applied to Bernie Sanders, a Democratic Socialist. .to the point where we are supposed to believe that one can't be Catholic and support Sanders. It's portrayed as quite ok though, to support the pro torture, anti poor Trump and still be a great Catholic.

Rhamiel · Feb 12, 2016

Mountain_Girl406 said:
Where are all the posts telling us we can't be Catholic and Capitalist? (Since no one wants to discern between Marxism, Communism, and Socialism, I think we could also equate Lassiez Faire capitalism to US Capitalism ). The anti communist quotes by past Popes get trotted out here about every month lately, and applied to Bernie Sanders, a Democratic Socialist. .to the point where we are supposed to believe that one can't be Catholic and support Sanders. It's portrayed as quite ok though, to support the pro torture, anti poor Trump and still be a great Catholic.

Socialism is based on a lie, it is based on faulty thinking by Karl Marx

Capitalism is based on freedom, being able to own property and buy goods and services
now like all freedoms, it can be abused, so pure lassie faire capitalism is an abuse of that freedom

so the two are simply not equal
one is a good thing that can be misused
the other is something that is actually bad

there have been a lot of threads about social justice, about the need to help the poor
and that is a good thing, because these are important topics
I think that "socialism is evil" is also an important topic

and yes, there are many types of socialism, Marxist Socialism, Stalinist Socialism, Maoist Socialism, National Socialism, Democratic Socialism

as pointed out, the Popes have condemned even "moderate socialism" and "Christian socialism"

and from what I have seen, I am not sure a Catholic can in good conscience support Sanders

imind · Feb 12, 2016

was this spoken ex cathedra (I think i have that correct)? if not, who cares? there have been plenty of statements made by francis that are dismissed by catholics as "having no authority."

Rhamiel · Feb 12, 2016

imind said:
was this spoken ex cathedra (I think i have that correct)? if not, who cares? there have been plenty of statements made by francis that are dismissed by catholics as "having no authority."

there is a hierarchy of teaching within the Catholic Church

there are many authoritative teachings that are not ex catherdra

we owe the Pope our obedience, not just in matters that are counted as "ex cathedra"

many of the resources posted are from Papal Encyclicals, which are authoritative

imind · Feb 12, 2016

Rhamiel said:
we owe the Pope our obedience, not just in matters that are counted as "ex cathedra"

you may want to share that with some of the other catholics on this board then...and it is very difficult for me to imagine that any intelligent man (or woman) could denounce such a vague idea, especially as christ himself lived at least variant of its ideas. i also think that anyone who did would be speaking of what he has experienced which, at the time, would be applicable. modern democratic socialism is hardly evil.

benedictaoo · Feb 13, 2016

Mountain_Girl406 said:
Yes, I can, but why would you care about my opinion. I'm sure I fall short of being a Catholic in your opinion, as I should. The question is, can one hold socialist values and be a good Catholic? I say yes, because Dorothy Day, and to some extent Thomas Merton, Dom Camara, and Gustavo Gutierrez all did or do.
While I am probably best described politically as a socialist (seamless garment pro life, vegan activist, green anachro-socialist is a bit of a mouthful ), I'm also not a good Catholic. I'd like to be a better one, but if I have to embrace Laissez Faire/ Tea Party values in order to do so, it's unlikely to happen

MG- seriously, the Catholic faith and to live the Christian life has little or nothing to do with politics. I'm letting you in on something, many use religion, the capital P pope, the Church as a way to advance agendas. You have GOT to be able to see past this very narrow view. Activism is not Catholicism or any other Christian faith. You or anyone else is not going to fix the world through activism and government. It just ain't gonna happen. The world changes through conversion which you yourself are in need of. That is what the Church condemns. The Church does not embrace any political agenda and shame on any Catholic who made you think she does. It is what it is. All you can do is your best and make the lives of those in your life better. What you need to be concerned with is your soul that's what it's about, not none of this. The way I see humanism, activism, politics, creeping into the Church... The Capital P pope we have now, he is being hijacked by humanist. This life will end and it's fleeting. The soul is your primary concern and the soul of others. That is the Church business. None of this... Yes we care for others but it does not come in the form of activism and government.

benedictaoo · Feb 13, 2016

MG, and if none of what I said sinks in then you will continue to struggle and will always go through the motions, never knowing the love of Christ. That is what will change the world, conversion of hearts and minds.

benedictaoo · Feb 13, 2016

Mountain_Girl406 said:
Where are all the posts telling us we can't be Catholic and Capitalist? (Since no one wants to discern between Marxism, Communism, and Socialism, I think we could also equate Lassiez Faire capitalism to US Capitalism ). The anti communist quotes by past Popes get trotted out here about every month lately, and applied to Bernie Sanders, a Democratic Socialist. .to the point where we are supposed to believe that one can't be Catholic and support Sanders. It's portrayed as quite ok though, to support the pro torture, anti poor Trump and still be a great Catholic.

If he supports abortion, gay marriages and all other immoral issues, then no we can't support him MG, do you read the bible? What does it profit a man to gain the whole world but to lose his soul. Do you understand what the Christian life truly is? It's not to be a political activist.

S.ilvio · Feb 13, 2016

benedictaoo said:
MG- seriously, the Catholic faith and to live the Christian life has little or nothing to do with politics. I'm letting you in on something, many use religion, the capital P pope, the Church as a way to advance agendas. You have GOT to be able to see past this very narrow view. Activism is not Catholicism or any other Christian faith. You or anyone else is not going to fix the world through activism and government. It just ain't gonna happen. The world changes through conversion which you yourself are in need of. That is what the Church condemns. The Church does not embrace any political agenda and shame on any Catholic who made you think she does. It is what it is. All you can do is your best and make the lives of those in your life better. What you need to be concerned with is your soul that's what it's about, not none of this. The way I see humanism, activism, politics, creeping into the Church... The Capital P pope we have now, he is being hijacked by humanist. This life will end and it's fleeting. The soul is your primary concern and the soul of others. That is the Church business. None of this... Yes we care for others but it does not come in the form of activism and government.

You're on a roll at the moment.

One can be a Catholic and an activist for social change in our own countries and those a lot worse off in the Third World.

I give you the Irish Catholic Advocacy and Activist Charity Trocaire... http://www.trocaire.org/

benedictaoo · Feb 13, 2016

S.ilvio said:
You'ere on a roll at the moment.

One can be a Catholic and an activist for social change in our own countries and those a lot worse off in the Third World.

I give you the Irish Catholic Advocacy and Activist Charity Trocaire... http://www.trocaire.org/

We are called to do what ever we can according to our state in life but and I know we have argued with you and those like you for years about this. And I do like you but you know we our deal with this is. Political activism is not spirituality. If you lack the spirituality and all you have is humanism, what do you have? Nothing. The world will be made better but conversion. Yes some folks have higher callings like Mother Theresa but at no time was she not spiritual? It's the lack of spirituality.

Gnarwhal · Feb 13, 2016

If we strip the labels and put aside the fact that Christianity is on the decline in most of these countries, how do reconcile the way those governments in places like Sweden, Norway and Denmark operate with scriptures like Acts 2:44-45?

Rhamiel · Feb 13, 2016

Darth Bagel said:
If we strip the labels and put aside the fact that Christianity is on the decline in most of these countries, how do reconcile the way those governments in places like Sweden, Norway and Denmark operate with scriptures like Acts 2:44-45?

this was a local community deciding what was best for themselves , it was not controlled by a bureaucrat (this also shows why smaller more homogeneous nations like Sweden seem to be able to handle this better, at least in the short run)
it was done voluntarily, not being forced by threats of having people with guns bash down your door and take you off to jail

Gnarwhal · Feb 13, 2016

Rhamiel said:
this was a local community deciding what was best for themselves , it was not controlled by a bureaucrat (this also shows why smaller more homogeneous nations like Sweden seem to be able to handle this better, at least in the short run)
it was done voluntarily, not being forced by threats of having people with guns bash down your door and take you off to jail

In the Byzantine Empire philanthropy was essentially considered a civic duty, one might consider that socialism, at least ostensibly.

In the classical world, including the Christian Byzantine Empire, philanthropy (individual citizens donating their money to the poor) was considered to be a civic ecclesiastical virtue. Benevolence and giving increased also as worship and service to God. Monasteries, orphanages, and refuges for the poor were founded. Hospitality was put into action.

Rhamiel · Feb 13, 2016

Darth Bagel said:
In the Byzantine Empire philanthropy was essentially considered a civic duty, one might consider that socialism, at least ostensibly.

yeah and look what happened to the Byzantines? they got invaded by Muslims
do you want the same to happen to us?

ok that was tongue in cheek

as I said before, no one here is arguing for Social Darwinism, Lassie Faire Capitalism or the morality of Ayn Rand
obviously those things are incompatible with Catholicism

Gnarwhal · Feb 13, 2016

Rhamiel said:
yeah and look what happened to the Byzantines? they got invaded by Muslims
do you want the same to happen to us?

ok that was tongue in cheek

as I said before, no one here is arguing for Social Darwinism, Lassie Faire Capitalism or the morality of Ayn Rand
obviously those things are incompatible with Catholicism

You're so sassy tonight.

Gxg (G²) · Feb 14, 2016

Rhamiel said:
yeah, when we see the horrors that have been committed by Socialists in the 20th Century, in Russia, Germany, China, Cambodia, and throughout Latin America
it seems unthinkable that anyone would support a Socialist

Intriguing...

benedictaoo · Feb 14, 2016

Rhamiel said:
yeah and look what happened to the Byzantines? they got invaded by Muslims
do you want the same to happen to us?

ok that was tongue in cheek

as I said before, no one here is arguing for Social Darwinism, Lassie Faire Capitalism or the morality of Ayn Rand
obviously those things are incompatible with Catholicism

Then please, in all seriousness, tell me what is the capitol p pope for?

S.ilvio · Feb 14, 2016

benedictaoo said:
Then please, in all seriousness, tell me what is the capitol p pope for?

A basic thing like a modicum of r-e-s-p-e-c-t for Our Lord's Shepherd on Earth...

mark46 · Feb 14, 2016

Medicare is socialism.

Social Security is socialism.

Public libraries and education are socialism.

We should all vote for anyone who opposes any of these.

socialism

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