Transgender gets pregnant.

razzelflabben said:

I could say the same of you....

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You already did. That's the point.

Cearbhall said:

You already did. That's the point.

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lol....

Smidlee said:

Often I can tell when people is trying to act like someone they are not.

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Smidlee said:

Often it's very easily to spot a man trying to act and talk like a woman.

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Gender does not amount to someone's voice, and making a game out of "spot the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" doesn't seem like a very Christian thing to do.

Smidlee said:

Gender Dysphoria is just a make-up word to avoid calling it sin... rebellion against God.

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The anti-science crowd comes home to roost...

Cearbhall said:

Gender does not amount to someone's voice, and making a game out of "spot the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" doesn't seem like a very Christian thing to do.

The anti-science crowd comes home to roost...

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shall I point out how bigoted your words in this post sound? How offensive your post is (previously assumed to be understood in context) to those who are not promoting transgender issues? How "social police" your words are here? Or will you just post more excuses like usual for poor behavior and blame others when you don't like the way they stated something that was not offensive to start out with?

Smidlee said:

Physically this is a birth defect.

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Where is it classified as a defect? I don't see why the balance of hormones during fetal development is such a big deal. As long as it doesn't interfere with the reproductive system (as it clearly hasn't for the individual who is the subject of this thread), nothing has gone wrong.

Cearbhall said:

Where is it classified as a defect? I don't see why the balance of hormones during fetal development is such a big deal. As long as it doesn't interfere with the reproductive system (as it clearly hasn't for the individual who is the subject of this thread), nothing has gone wrong.

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Isn't that the point that some here are trying to make? That nothing has gone wrong, which is why being "transgender" doesn't make sense?

razzelflabben said:

Isn't that the point that some here are trying to make? That nothing has gone wrong, which is why being "transgender" doesn't make sense?

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I'm not sure what you're getting at. There's a biological difference, but it doesn't amount to something being wrong. People naturally have different levels of hormones as per their exposure during pregnancy, as well as a number of other factors. I likely have more testosterone than the timid girls I know, for example, but I seem to be within the "normal" range and therefore identify as a woman. Still, there are some behaviors that are associated with the female gender that make me uncomfortable and probably won't ever be a part of my gender expression. People who are outliers on this spectrum (relative to other people of their biological sex) often end up identifying with the opposite gender because that set of expectations fits them better overall because culture has constructed it for people who have their hormonal composition.

How people have managed to give this moral significance is beyond me.

Cearbhall said:

I'm not sure what you're getting at. There's a biological difference, but it doesn't amount to something being wrong. People naturally have different levels of hormones as per their exposure during pregnancy, as well as a number of other factors. I likely have more testosterone than the timid girls I know, for example, but I seem to be within the "normal" range and therefore identify as a woman. Still, there are some behaviors that are associated with the female gender that make me uncomfortable and probably won't ever be a part of my gender expression. People who are outliers on this spectrum (relative to other people of their biological sex) often end up identifying with the opposite gender because that set of expectations fits them better overall because culture has constructed it for people who have their hormonal composition.

How people have managed to give this moral significance is beyond me.

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wow, way to miss the point, at least you admitted to missing it before going on your rant, that is appreciated. My point was that you made a comment that there was nothing "defective" which seems to be the point that many are trying to make. Being born a male or female is not defective in anyway, yet the transgender tries to make it sound like they are defective (not saying that is what they intend to convey) to have the body parts they have. But it isn't defective at all, which puts a bind on their arguments at least as they come across. But your post here brings up another point that I wonder why no transgender attacked you for. You see, I have been attacked mercilessly for saying that the transgender is reacting to social gender roles. I have been told that is hate speech, that it has nothing to do with societies roles at all, yet here you are saying it is about social gender roles and no one calls you out on it. This double standard is not only troubling, but makes the whole argument seem...well...a bit...ridiculous and like it's all pretend.

razzelflabben said:

wow, way to miss the point, at least you admitted to missing it before going on your rant, that is appreciated. My point was that you made a comment that there was nothing "defective" which seems to be the point that many are trying to make. Being born a male or female is not defective in anyway, yet the transgender tries to make it sound like they are defective (not saying that is what they intend to convey) to have the body parts they have. But it isn't defective at all, which puts a bind on their arguments at least as they come across.

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The parts themselves aren't defective and neither is the brain. Doesn't mean that the mismatch between them isn't a form of a birth defect. Some do object to the use of the term "defect". I am not one of them.

But your post here brings up another point that I wonder why no transgender attacked you for. You see, I have been attacked mercilessly for saying that the transgender is reacting to social gender roles. I have been told that is hate speech, that it has nothing to do with societies roles at all, yet here you are saying it is about social gender roles and no one calls you out on it. This double standard is not only troubling, but makes the whole argument seem...well...a bit...ridiculous and like it's all pretend.

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Who told you that was "hate speech"?

And how were you "attacked mercilessly"?

Please provide links to these incidents.

But transition isn't about gender roles, no. However, the trans person can find the social roles of the gender they identify as much more natural to them, thus making it an example and not a cause or reason for it.

razzelflabben said:

wow, way to miss the point, at least you admitted to missing it before going on your rant, that is appreciated. My point was that you made a comment that there was nothing "defective" which seems to be the point that many are trying to make.

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I'm sorry I did not address the point in the way that you wanted me to. Yes, there is nothing defective about being transgender. You have correctly observed that this is our point.

razzelflabben said:

Being born a male or female is not defective in anyway, yet the transgender tries to make it sound like they are defective (not saying that is what they intend to convey) to have the body parts they have.

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You are way over-simplifying it. We're talking about complex organisms, not an orange crayon vs. a blue crayon. A person can be biologically male while having a hormonal balance (or chromosomes, or ambiguous genitals, etc.) that makes the person fit better in the female gender that society has constructed. Many societies have only constructed two genders, so it's impossible for everyone to fit perfectly into one or other, much less the same one as everyone else who has the same genitals (or chromosomes, whatever you're going by). Some cultures have a third and fourth gender, which is a bit more useful, but still inadequate from a scientific standpoint.

Cute Tink said:

The parts themselves aren't defective and neither is the brain. Doesn't mean that the mismatch between them isn't a form of a birth defect. Some do object to the use of the term "defect". I am not one of them.

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what evidence do we have that either is out of sink? Now, before you answer, I want hard evidence that there are medical tests that show that the brain can be mismatched with the bodies sex organs, cause the truth of the issue it, there are no such tests, that means you are calling something true that we have no evidence is true. Now, also before you go off on some rant like you like to do, think back to what I said I believe....do you remember? Can you think with your mind and not your emotions for a moment? I said that I personally believe that something chemical can go wrong in the brain when the sex organs are forming. That is a personal belief...here you are being asked for hard evidence, not "the professionals say" not "the professionals believe" not "this report says" etc., but actual hard evidence that the mismatch is other than imagined...I haven't seen that hard evidence even though I believe it can happen and so far, for all the "evidence" you have provided, I haven't seen you provide it either. IOW's it's theory and nothing more at this point. No matter who believes it, if there is no medical test, it's theory, plain and simple.

Who told you that was "hate speech"?

And how were you "attacked mercilessly"?

But transition isn't about gender roles, no. However, the trans person can find the social roles of the gender they identify as much more natural to them, thus making it an example and not a cause or reason for it.

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and yet, every time I ask someone to explain what it "feels" like to be a man or woman, it always goes back to social gender roles....thus the question is unanswered and all the bigoted accusations and attacks are without cause.

razzelflabben said:

what evidence do we have that either is out of sink? Now, before you answer, I want hard evidence that there are medical tests that show that the brain can be mismatched with the bodies sex organs, cause the truth of the issue it, there are no such tests, that means you are calling something true that we have no evidence is true. Now, also before you go off on some rant like you like to do, think back to what I said I believe....do you remember? Can you think with your mind and not your emotions for a moment? I said that I personally believe that something chemical can go wrong in the brain when the sex organs are forming. That is a personal belief...here you are being asked for hard evidence, not "the professionals say" not "the professionals believe" not "this report says" etc., but actual hard evidence that the mismatch is other than imagined...I haven't seen that hard evidence even though I believe it can happen and so far, for all the "evidence" you have provided, I haven't seen you provide it either. IOW's it's theory and nothing more at this point. No matter who believes it, if there is no medical test, it's theory, plain and simple.

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I understand you disregard all the medical evidence. MRI's are, in fact, medical tests. Postmortem dissection is a medical test. You've disregarded their findings.

I'm going to disregard the implications of some of this post.

and yet, every time I ask someone to explain what it "feels" like to be a man or woman, it always goes back to social gender roles....thus the question is unanswered and all the bigoted accusations and attacks are without cause.

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The question is unanswered - who attacked you? Who called it "hate speech"? Please provide links to these incidents.

I explained they are examples and not the cause or reason for the condition.

Cearbhall said:

I'm sorry I did not address the point in the way that you wanted me to. Yes, there is nothing defective about being transgender. You have correctly observed that this is our point.

You are way over-simplifying it. We're talking about complex organisms, not an orange crayon vs. a blue crayon. A person can be biologically male while having a hormonal balance (or chromosomes, or ambiguous genitals, etc.) that makes the person fit better in the female gender that society has constructed. Many societies have only constructed two genders, so it's impossible for everyone to fit perfectly into one or other, much less the same one as everyone else who has the same genitals (or chromosomes, whatever you're going by). Some cultures have a third and fourth gender, which is a bit more useful, but still inadequate from a scientific standpoint.

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nor is there anything defective about being male or female. IOW's transgender people like to compare themselves to things like cleft palates and other deformities whether from genetics or accident, but if there is no defect, the comparison cannot be made. This creates a catch 22 for the transgender person at least when trying to use such examples to justify their decisions.

Personally, I don't buy into the social gender structure, but that is a different matter. I remember an experiment I heard about way long ago when I was in college. (don't ask me to show the study, that was ages ago) anyway, they took babies and gave them a life in which there were no gender constructs. In the end, there was no significant difference between the girls and boys. Personally, from the evidence I have seen (as in this study long ago and observations I am able to personally make) I find that men and woman are vastly more alike than different. In fact, the differences I see can all be explained through social pressure and not through some organ they carry around in their bodies. Thus, it is a valid question to ask what is different about men and woman other than sexual organs and the answer always comes back to social structure. Now, I will say this...and I want to be perfectly clear so please think before responding....IF there is something inherently different, someone needs to explain what it is, which so far, no one can and two IF there is nothing inherently different, then even if it is your prerogative to transition, I think it is very sad that anyone would allow society to tell them they aren't fine just as they are and allow all the negative emotions that follow such things dictate how they live.

Cute Tink said:

I understand you disregard all the medical evidence. MRI's are, in fact, medical tests. Postmortem dissection is a medical test. You've disregarded their findings.

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okay, see this kind of posting hurts your reputation of wanting to be someone who is open minded and willing to talk about the topic. I do not disregard medical evidence, never have, never will. What I am asking for is a test we can do to show 1. that it is biological and 2. that this person or that person has that condition. It's a simple question neither of your suggestes above fit the criteria.

Let me tell you a story. I currently have a medical condition that is not recognized by the vast portion of the medical community. Actually, there are two conditions that are related, but that would take some time to explain and get us off topic. The reason they are not recognized is because there is no reliable test. Now, I am treating it myself and finding relief and slowly healing, so I know there is truth to what I am saying, but providing medical evidence is not going to happen, cause it doesn't exist. What you are being asked for is evidence that doesn't exist and like with my condition, you need to come to an understanding and acceptance that this is just how it is.

I'm going to disregard the implications of some of this post.

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seems to me you would be reading into it what is not there is you are talking about implications cause I was painfully clear as to my intent.

The question is unanswered - who attacked you? Who called it "hate speech"? Please provide links to these incidents.

I explained they are examples and not the cause or reason for the condition.

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not going to indulge such non sense, sorry, just tired of being attacked for what is not worthy of attack. End of story.

razzelflabben said:

But your post here brings up another point that I wonder why no transgender attacked you for. You see, I have been attacked mercilessly for saying that the transgender is reacting to social gender roles. I have been told that is hate speech, that it has nothing to do with societies roles at all, yet here you are saying it is about social gender roles and no one calls you out on it. This double standard is not only troubling, but makes the whole argument seem...well...a bit...ridiculous and like it's all pretend.

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No one responded between my post and yours. Barely an hour passed. This hardly proves anything.

Cearbhall said:

No one responded between my post and yours. Barely an hour passed. This hardly proves anything.

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we will wait and see, but I get attacked instantly

razzelflabben said:

okay, see this kind of posting hurts your reputation of wanting to be someone who is open minded and willing to talk about the topic. I do not disregard medical evidence, never have, never will. What I am asking for is a test we can do to show 1. that it is biological and 2. that this person or that person has that condition. It's a simple question neither of your suggestes above fit the criteria.

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You want a medical diagnostic test now? This is a new requirement. Before you just wanted evidence that the brain can develop opposite the body.

Let me tell you a story. I currently have a medical condition that is not recognized by the vast portion of the medical community. Actually, there are two conditions that are related, but that would take some time to explain and get us off topic. The reason they are not recognized is because there is no reliable test. Now, I am treating it myself and finding relief and slowly healing, so I know there is truth to what I am saying, but providing medical evidence is not going to happen, cause it doesn't exist. What you are being asked for is evidence that doesn't exist and like with my condition, you need to come to an understanding and acceptance that this is just how it is.

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Except there is evidence of gender dysphoria - medical evidence. You just disregard the findings.

seems to me you would be reading into it what is not there is you are talking about implications cause I was painfully clear as to my intent.

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The implications part was a reference to this statement: "Can you think with your mind and not your emotions for a moment?"

not going to indulge such non sense, sorry, just tired of being attacked for what is not worthy of attack. End of story.

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Backing up your claims is "non sense"? I guess your claims of constantly being attacked and being told it was "hate speech" can be summarily disregarded then.

Cute Tink said:

You want a medical diagnostic test now? This is a new requirement. Before you just wanted evidence that the brain can develop opposite the body.

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wow, do you read for comprehension? I specified a medical test and then went into what qualified and you accuse me of changing my criteria....seriously, you need help when it comes to responding to forum posts.

Except there is evidence of gender dysphoria - medical evidence. You just disregard the findings.

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okay, what is the medical test for gender dysphoria? Is it a blood test? A urine test? What? Maybe MRI? I specifically asked for a medical test and then I explained what that was and why...oh never mind, at this point your posts are painfully clear that it is impossible to have a serious discussion with you on this topic because all you do is reinvent what is said and slander in the process....which is why I told you to think about what i said before responding, cause you apparently, from this response, don't even read what is said, much less respond to what is being said. Geesh...

The implications part was a reference to this statement: "Can you think with your mind and not your emotions for a moment?"

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see above, you are reinventing what I said because you read it with emotion rather than logic and reason.

Backing up your claims is "non sense"? I guess your claims of constantly being attacked and being told it was "hate speech" can be summarily disregarded then.

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Look, discussing who said and did what is off topic, if you don't like me following forum rules, take it up with the mods.

Now before I dismiss your posts as meaningless dribble from someone who does not want an honest discussion, here is the quote of what I asked for, I will highlight a few things for you and unless or until you offer an apology for misrepresenting me, I will assume you are being inflamatory on purpose.

what evidence do we have that either is out of sink? Now, before you answer, I want hard evidence that there are medical tests that show that the brain can be mismatched with the bodies sex organs, cause the truth of the issue it, there are no such tests, that means you are calling something true that we have no evidence is true. Now, also before you go off on some rant like you like to do, think back to what I said I believe....do you remember? Can you think with your mind and not your emotions for a moment? I said that I personally believe that something chemical can go wrong in the brain when the sex organs are forming. That is a personal belief...here you are being asked for hard evidence, not "the professionals say" not "the professionals believe" not "this report says" etc., but actual hard evidence that the mismatch is other than imagined...I haven't seen that hard evidence even though I believe it can happen and so far, for all the "evidence" you have provided, I haven't seen you provide it either. IOW's it's theory and nothing more at this point. No matter who believes it, if there is no medical test, it's theory, plain and simple.

Cearbhall said:

Gender does not amount to someone's voice, and making a game out of "spot the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" doesn't seem like a very Christian thing to do.

The anti-science crowd comes home to roost...

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You don't have to be a Christian nor a rocket scientist to know when people are putting on a act. One thing I know about science is there is a lot of nonsense claiming to scientific.