Kentucky County Clerk Kim Davis Jailed for Not Issuing Gay Marriage Licenses

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Pammalamma

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So we agree civil disobedience is a viable option for the Christian. What I want is honesty and truth. It is simply not true that we should blindly and slavishly obey the government. Most laws and rulers are good, and should be obeyed, though they are all imperfect. However, if a law is wicked, it should be disobeyed, and so should wicked rulers. That's what I want to hear people saying right now.

None of the people I know who approve of gay marriage have ever worried about the rule of law in cases of their favorite politicians committing fraud and other crimes, or when immigration laws are ignored, or when Planned Parenthood breaks the law, or when people vote twenty times each for their side, or when people buy a small amount of illegal drugs, and on, and on. I have two problems with that.

One, as I said, is honesty. We should all speak the truth because it is Christ himself, and so is priceless beyond compare. No fruitful or meaningful existence can be based on lies.

Secondly, to say that the government should be blindly obeyed in every case is to turn the government into a type of god, because it puts the moral authority of the government above that of the individual's conscience or their religious beliefs and ethics. We have seen what happens when people do this, and it's basically that the government forces people to commit atrocities. As an ethic Jew, I have a big problem with that, and I will listen to any objection to Kim Davis' actions (she's stupid, an adulterer, hypocrite, criminal, inconsistent, bigoted, wrong) other than "She should just do her job." That way lies despair.
 
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Cute Tink

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The wording is a little strange, but any time man's laws go against God's law, we are to defy man's law.

I hope you understand when the rest of us want to put you in jail then, because society cannot survive everyone deciding for themselves which laws they don't want to follow.
 
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Pammalamma

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I hope you understand when the rest of us want to put you in jail then, because society cannot survive everyone deciding for themselves which laws they don't want to follow.

Bring it! I already have my bags packed for the concentration camp. I guess you probably hope it's not near your house so you can't smell the bodies, hunh?

Congress reaffirms indefinite detention of Americans under NDAA
http://www.rt.com/usa/160832-ndaa-gitmo-detention-approved/

Here's a quote for you about when it's actually better to break a law. If you read the whole thing, he does mention Hitler so don't bother appealing to Godwin's authority:

"Sometimes a law is just on its face and unjust in its application. For instance, I have been arrested on a charge of parading without a permit. Now, there is nothing wrong in having an ordinance which requires a permit for a parade. But such an ordinance becomes unjust when it is used to maintain segregation and to deny citizens the First-Amendment privilege of peaceful assembly and protest.

I hope you are able to see the distinction I am trying to point out. In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law, as would the rabid segregationist. That would lead to anarchy. One who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law." --MLK, "Letter from Birmingham Jail"
http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html
 
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pat34lee

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She didn't go to jail for discrimination against gays. She was in contempt of court for ignoring a lawful order from a judge. Of course the judge had a leg to stand on, that's why she's sitting in a cell right now.

If she wasn't discriminating, then why the court order?
 
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Dave Ellis

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So we agree civil disobedience is a viable option for the Christian. What I want is honesty and truth. It is simply not true that we should blindly and slavishly obey the government. Most laws and rulers are good, and should be obeyed, though they are all imperfect. However, if a law is wicked, it should be disobeyed, and so should wicked rulers. That's what I want to hear people saying right now.

None of the people I know who approve of gay marriage have ever worried about the rule of law in cases of their favorite politicians committing fraud and other crimes, or when immigration laws are ignored, or when Planned Parenthood breaks the law, or when people vote twenty times each for their side, or when people buy a small amount of illegal drugs, and on, and on. I have two problems with that.

One, as I said, is honesty. We should all speak the truth because it is Christ himself, and so is priceless beyond compare. No fruitful or meaningful existence can be based on lies.

Secondly, to say that the government should be blindly obeyed in every case is to turn the government into a type of god, because it puts the moral authority of the government above that of the individual's conscience or their religious beliefs and ethics. We have seen what happens when people do this, and it's basically that the government forces people to commit atrocities. As an ethic Jew, I have a big problem with that, and I will listen to any objection to Kim Davis' actions (she's stupid, an adulterer, hypocrite, criminal, inconsistent, bigoted, wrong) other than "She should just do her job." That way lies despair.



The irony is that Kim Davis while acting as a representative of the government was abusing government powers to force others to adhere to her personal theological beliefs.

If you're against slavishly following the government, and limiting the power of government, then you should be against what Kim Davis did. She is abusing her power and violated the civil rights of every gay person that walked into her office.

The best description I heard to describe why this is wrong is to imagine your local county clerk was a Muslim. In some Muslim countries, women aren't allowed to drive because it's un-Islamic. Now, pretend your local county clerk denied you a drivers licence because it conflicts with their personal religious beliefs.... It's pretty clear that's an absurd abuse of power and certainly not protected by the 1st amendment. However if you replace the word "drivers licence" with "marriage licence", that is exactly what Kim Davis is doing.

The reason why it's wrong for the Muslim is exactly the same reason why it's wrong for the Christian (i.e. Kim Davis). You don't get to impose your religion on others by using government coercion to subvert their civil rights. That's the antithesis of religious freedom.
 
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pat34lee

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I hope you understand when the rest of us want to put you in jail then, because society cannot survive everyone deciding for themselves which laws they don't want to follow.

So, if they bring back segregation or slavery or female subjugation or re-outlaw homosexuality, you would have no problems with them enforcing the law?
 
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Dave Ellis

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If she wasn't discriminating, then why the court order?

He is correct from a legal standpoint, she wasn't jailed for discrimination. She was jailed for contempt of court because she ignored a federal court order.
 
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pat34lee

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He is correct from a legal standpoint, she wasn't jailed for discrimination. She was jailed for contempt of court because she ignored a federal court order.

Again, why did the judge interfere in her department if she wasn't discriminating against anyone?
 
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durangodawood

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So, if they bring back segregation or slavery or female subjugation or re-outlaw homosexuality, you would have no problems with them enforcing the law?
Injustice should be resisted!
But dont whine about going to jail. Thats what happens when you break the law.

(Of course, in this case, the clerk is the one committing the injustice. But thats almost a separate topic.)
 
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Pammalamma

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to force others to adhere to her personal theological beliefs.

Nope. They can go to another county.

I do believe in religious freedom for Muslims, but if the Muslim clerk was making the voters unhappy, they would be impeached. It would not be an issue for long.

See, being tolerant means making accommodations for people's differences. What if the county clerk is in a wheelchair? We can't have all kinds of disabled people needing all kinds of weird ways to move around... Oh wait, we can accommodate that. What if the county clerk was a smoker? We can't have people taking off work for a break to... Oh, wait, we do that, too. What if the county clerk was a Jew? We can't have people taking off weird religious holidays and... Oh, we do that too, huh? But, what if the county clerk was transgendered? We can't have men dressing as women and women dressing as men, and problems with the bathrooms, and have to change all the name prefixes on our forms, and... What? We do that, too?

So, to be tolerant, what we need to do is to understand that people are different and be loving and accepting and work through their differences with them, right? If we can accommodate conscientious objectors in the military, and everything I just mentioned, and a lot more I didn't mention, then we should be able to accommodate people's religious and ethical compunctions against lying and approving of sin, both against the Christian religion and worthy of damnation, according to our beliefs, which are thousands of years older than any Supreme Court of the United States ruling. She is not "forcing" anyone to do anything, because they can go to a different county. On the contrary, she is the one being coerced, because she is the one in jail.
 
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pat34lee

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The irony is that Kim Davis while acting as a representative of the government was abusing government powers to force others to adhere to her personal theological beliefs.

If you're against slavishly following the government, and limiting the power of government, then you should be against what Kim Davis did. She is abusing her power and violated the civil rights of every gay person that walked into her office.

The best description I heard to describe why this is wrong is to imagine your local county clerk was a Muslim. In some Muslim countries, women aren't allowed to drive because it's un-Islamic. Now, pretend your local county clerk denied you a drivers licence because it conflicts with their personal religious beliefs.... It's pretty clear that's an absurd abuse of power and certainly not protected by the 1st amendment. However if you replace the word "drivers licence" with "marriage licence", that is exactly what Kim Davis is doing.

The reason why it's wrong for the Muslim is exactly the same reason why it's wrong for the Christian (i.e. Kim Davis). You don't get to impose your religion on others by using government coercion to subvert their civil rights. That's the antithesis of religious freedom.

You are comparing black and white and calling them both gray. She was elected to do a certain job. The Supreme Court took it upon themselves to redefine her job without her knowledge or consent, or the consent of the voters who elected her. By the way, nobody voted for the SC. And if she is abusing anyone, she is doing it fairly as she didn't give one group licenses and not the other.

That is a far cry from her choosing to do something other than what she was elected to do, as in your second example.
 
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brewmama

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I hope you understand when the rest of us want to put you in jail then, because society cannot survive everyone deciding for themselves which laws they don't want to follow.

Well that really depends on which side of the political spectrum you are...

"Jerry Brown refused to defend Prop 8 in California thereby refusing to follow his oath to uphold the laws of California, but he’s not in jail.

Obama and Holder both swore to uphold the laws of this great nation but both refused to follow the DOMA law yet neither are in jail.

There are many mayors of sanctuary cities that openly declare their refusal to follow immigration laws yet none of them are in jail.

The DNC has knowingly hired an illegal alien, thereby breaking the law, yet no charges have yet been filed."


http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/09/why_is_the_kentucky_clerk_in_jail.html
 
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durangodawood

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....As an ethic Jew, I have a big problem with that, and I will listen to any objection to Kim Davis' actions (she's stupid, an adulterer, hypocrite, criminal, inconsistent, bigoted, wrong) other than "She should just do her job." That way lies despair.
She should quit her job. See wont be sent to the gulag for that.
 
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Pammalamma

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She should quit her job. See wont be sent to the gulag for that.
And I suppose Rosa Parks should have gone to the back of the bus, right? She broke the rules and caused a problem.
 
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durangodawood

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Well that really depends on which side of the political spectrum you are...

"Jerry Brown refused to defend Prop 8 in California thereby refusing to follow his oath to uphold the laws of California, but he’s not in jail.

Obama and Holder both swore to uphold the laws of this great nation but both refused to follow the DOMA law yet neither are in jail.

There are many mayors of sanctuary cities that openly declare their refusal to follow immigration laws yet none of them are in jail.

The DNC has knowingly hired an illegal alien, thereby breaking the law, yet no charges have yet been filed."


http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/09/why_is_the_kentucky_clerk_in_jail.html
Maybe they all should be in jail too. But I'm not just going to take you blog's word about it. If they were fresh new, we could start a thread for each of them
 
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durangodawood

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And I suppose Rosa Parks should have gone to the back of the bus, right? She broke the rules and caused a problem.
Did you read what I said?
Injustice should be resisted.
But if that requires breaking the law, dont be shocked that jail is the consequence.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Again, why did the judge interfere in her department if she wasn't discriminating against anyone?


She was discriminating, I don't think anyone is arguing that. That's just not the reason she was jailed... she was jailed for contempt of court.
 
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brewmama

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1) Hitler was a self-described Catholic who worked very cooperatively with the Catholic Church during his time in power. Likewise, the Catholic Church had very little to say in regards to Nazi atrocities.

There is just as much evidence out there that Hitler was NOT a Christian. You are also wrong about the Catholic Church.

2) There is no such thing as "Judeo-Christian" philosophy. The one group you never hear mention the phrase "Judeo-Christian" are the Jews. It's an exclusively Christian term which tries to co-opt the Jews in with them, and arose largely from the guilt of centuries of anti-Semitic persecution from essentially every brand of Christianity.

Well THAT'S ridiculous. Just because the Jews don't use it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Christianity comes out of Judaism, which gives them a philosophy that is descended from both. Christ was a Jew you know.

3) The "sacredness" of marriage, or anything scripture has to say is totally irrelevant to U.S. law. When dealing with the U.S. or Kentucky State governments, we are dealing with civil, not religious marriage. That's a legal contract completely separate from the doctrines of any particular religion. So quite frankly, what Kim Davis did is an illegal deed and has nothing at all to do with religion. She denied people a secular marriage on her personal religious grounds, and that's just flat out unacceptable.

Kentucky law does not permit homosexual marriage. So she in fact was being loyal to whatever oath she took and to her state.
 
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lasthero

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You are comparing black and white and calling them both gray. She was elected to do a certain job. The Supreme Court took it upon themselves to redefine her job without her knowledge or consent, or the consent of the voters who elected her.

That's how the Supreme Court works and has always worked. What's the problem?

By the way, nobody voted for the SC.

Nope. And that's a very good thing.

And if she is abusing anyone, she is doing it fairly as she didn't give one group licenses and not the other.

So she just wasn't doing her job?

Maybe this was covered already, but didn't she take an oath?
 
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ScottA

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So we agree civil disobedience is a viable option for the Christian. What I want is honesty and truth. It is simply not true that we should blindly and slavishly obey the government. Most laws and rulers are good, and should be obeyed, though they are all imperfect. However, if a law is wicked, it should be disobeyed, and so should wicked rulers. That's what I want to hear people saying right now.

None of the people I know who approve of gay marriage have ever worried about the rule of law in cases of their favorite politicians committing fraud and other crimes, or when immigration laws are ignored, or when Planned Parenthood breaks the law, or when people vote twenty times each for their side, or when people buy a small amount of illegal drugs, and on, and on. I have two problems with that.

One, as I said, is honesty. We should all speak the truth because it is Christ himself, and so is priceless beyond compare. No fruitful or meaningful existence can be based on lies.

Secondly, to say that the government should be blindly obeyed in every case is to turn the government into a type of god, because it puts the moral authority of the government above that of the individual's conscience or their religious beliefs and ethics. We have seen what happens when people do this, and it's basically that the government forces people to commit atrocities. As an ethic Jew, I have a big problem with that, and I will listen to any objection to Kim Davis' actions (she's stupid, an adulterer, hypocrite, criminal, inconsistent, bigoted, wrong) other than "She should just do her job." That way lies despair.
I actually think she should just be fired for not doing her job. But I also think it is hypocritical not to tolerate her beliefs.
 
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