American Dentist Identified as Killer of Famed Lion in Zimbabwe

William67 · Aug 1, 2015

So, your source is one of the most liberal news media outlets on the planet, which quotes "data" (estimates), that comes from rabid anti-hunting groups? These are the same groups that claim that polar bears are about to go extinct, even though there are actually more polar bears now than in the last 50 years.

I don't trust anything these "environmental/nature" wackos say. These are the same groups that, if their "data" concerning deforestation of the Amazon back in the 70's was correct, there wouldn't have been a single tree left in all of South American by 2000. These are the same types of people who claimed America has been stripped of her forests, even though there is more forested acreage now than when the Pilgrims landed.

And you would be amazed at how resilient nature is. The cheetah almost became extinct thousands of years ago. How do we know this? Because, cheetahs are so inbred, you take the skin from one cheetah and graft it onto the body of any other cheetah...and it will heal and grow. There is almost no genetic variation. Enviromentalism/MMCC are just money rackets meant to separate the gullible from their money.

And the fact is, the dentist paid for a hunting trip. He wasn't told that baiting the animal was illegal. I doubt he will be extradited. We don't usually send citizens to corrupt 3rd world cesspools and hope they get some kind of trial. This is just another case of the tail wagging the dog, meant to distract people from the fact that Hitlery is falling in the polls.

SnowyMacie · Aug 1, 2015

William67 said:
Only tree huggers care about the lion. As for Bland, she admitted on her FB page that she was suffering from depression. She was shown alive on video after her mug shot was taken. The cops had no idea she was depressed. She was the one who tied the bag around her neck and hung herself. She didn't die because of a traffic stop. She died because she was depressed and decided to throw away the gift God had given her.

1) The arrest was unlawful to begin with, there is nothing in that video to dictate probable cause for arrest.
2) If she did kill herself, it is still the fault of the police. Regardless of whether or not they knew she was depressed, it is still the duty of the police to keep people safe from self-harm or the harm of others while in police custody. It's not like she slit her wrist quickly and they tried to help.

William67 said:
I don't see many actual Conservatives calling for this guys head. And do you know who is actually causing these animals to go extinct? It isn't hunters like this dentist. Its Africans who kill the animals to protect their herds and to open new land for farming.

Ranting about this one guy is absurd. And they actually had a story about what the people of Zimbabwe thought about it. They couldn't understand why Americans were so upset. This is the same country where you can buy a One BILLION Zimbabwe bank note on ebay for a couple of bucks. You would think that the financial crisis in that country would be news. You would think it Americans would be upset that the Zimbabwe govt is actually having people killed. But no, its about some rich moron killing an old lion. The fact that the average lifespan of a lion in the wild it 15-18 years doesn't factor into the equation.

I actually read that article this morning, and found it funny how it did not mention the two hunters being arrested by Zimbabwean authorities who are currently out on bond awaiting trial for an illegal hunt.

fromtheAsh · Aug 1, 2015

William67 said:
So, your source is one of the most liberal news media outlets on the planet, which quotes "data" (estimates), that comes from rabid anti-hunting groups? These are the same groups that claim that polar bears are about to go extinct, even though there are actually more polar bears now than in the last 50 years.

I don't trust anything these "environmental/nature" wackos say. These are the same groups that, if their "data" concerning deforestation of the Amazon back in the 70's was correct, there wouldn't have been a single tree left in all of South American by 2000. These are the same types of people who claimed America has been stripped of her forests, even though there is more forested acreage now than when the Pilgrims landed.

Do you know why? Because those "environmental/nature wackos" won. The American Bison was almost extinct 100 years ago because of over-hunting, and those crazy enviromentalists started preserves and overtime the population recovered.

MiniEmu · Aug 1, 2015

I'll be honest. Lions, even 'special' ones, can be utter pests. Dangerous pests. Elephants can be dangerous pests too. The method of hunting was not one I support, but I am not in uproar about it.

Hunting big game is no different to hunting deer, duck, pheasant, elk or caribou. It really isn't. There is a huge difference between sustainable hunting tourism and wiping out a population. People are aware that a lot of very serious, very committed conservationists support sustainable big game hunting, right? I mean a lot of local people view these animals many of us in the West see in a largely positive light as very dangerous pests. They're also aware that, most of the time we're striving to conserve a fixed ideal of nature, rather than allowing it to do what nature has always done, right? That's another huge area of debate with those involved in conservation.

A lot of local people are severely maimed, and killed, by lions (elephants, hippos... everything really) on a weekly basis. There is this huge uproar over a single lion, everyone makes a fuss about because it is one of the more charismatic mammals around.

It was not an efficient kill, and that is something that is worth sorrow. Respecting the planet is necessary, we are to take care of it, but lions are no more important than cows. Not in the grand scheme of things. The ecosystem... ah now that is a difficult one. There is a school of thought that links back to my comment earlier, on how we seek to preserve things as they are rather than allow them to change, that really all that happens is the ecosystem has to find a new equilibrium. There's also a terrible, terrible issue with people in the West telling other countries how they should run their countries. One of the biggest rebuttals from them is that we hunted our big game into the ground, destroyed our natural habitat in the name of progress, and have done well for ourselves... yet we want to tell them not to do the same?

It's a tricky, hot subject.

fromtheAsh · Aug 1, 2015

MiniEmu said:
I'll be honest. Lions, even 'special' ones, can be utter pests. Dangerous pests. Elephants can be dangerous pests too. The method of hunting was not one I support, but I am not in uproar about it.

Hunting big game is no different to hunting deer, duck, pheasant, elk or caribou. It really isn't. There is a huge difference between sustainable hunting tourism and wiping out a population. People are aware that a lot of very serious, very committed conservationists support sustainable big game hunting, right? I mean a lot of local people view these animals many of us in the West see in a largely positive light as very dangerous pests. They're also aware that, most of the time we're striving to conserve a fixed ideal of nature, rather than allowing it to do what nature has always done, right? That's another huge area of debate with those involved in conservation.

A lot of local people are severely maimed, and killed, by lions (elephants, hippos... everything really) on a weekly basis. There is this huge uproar over a single lion, everyone makes a fuss about because it is one of the more charismatic mammals around.

It was not an efficient kill, and that is something that is worth sorrow. Respecting the planet is necessary, we are to take care of it, but lions are no more important than cows. Not in the grand scheme of things. The ecosystem... ah now that is a difficult one. There is a school of thought that links back to my comment earlier, on how we seek to preserve things as they are rather than allow them to change, that really all that happens is the ecosystem has to find a new equilibrium. There's also a terrible, terrible issue with people in the West telling other countries how they should run their countries. One of the biggest rebuttals from them is that we hunted our big game into the ground, destroyed our natural habitat in the name of progress, and have done well for ourselves... yet we want to tell them not to do the same?

It's a tricky, hot subject.

I have no issue with big game hunting, I think it would be kind of cool to go to Africa for an exotic big game hunt. What you bring up in the last paragraph is the biggest thing that upset me about it not being an efficient kill. You don't let an animal bleed out for forty hours.

William67 · Aug 1, 2015

TX_Matt said:
1) The arrest was unlawful to begin with, there is nothing in that video to dictate probable cause for arrest.
2) If she did kill herself, it is still the fault of the police. Regardless of whether or not they knew she was depressed, it is still the duty of the police to keep people safe from self-harm or the harm of others while in police custody. It's not like she slit her wrist quickly and they tried to help.

I actually read that article this morning, and found it funny how it did not mention the two hunters being arrested by Zimbabwean authorities who are currently out on bond awaiting trial for an illegal hunt.

You do realize that being "belligerent" actually IS probable cause for an arrest, don't you? Being a public nuisance, disturbing the peace can all land you in the gaol. And no, it isn't the cops fault. If she hadn't killed herself in the cell, she would most likely done it somewhere else. When people decide to actually commit suicide, they will find a way to do it.

SnowyMacie · Aug 1, 2015

William67 said:
You do realize that being "belligerent" actually IS probable cause for an arrest, don't you?

Have you seen the actual arrest video? I have and I fail to see how in any way she was the one who was acting belligerent. Sarcastic and sassy? I'd say so, but far from belligerent or disturbing the peace. I'd post it but there's foul language. Here's everywhere the cop went wrong.

1) The police do not have the lawful authority to tell you to put out a cigarette. "You mind putting your cigarette please" is his exact wording, which is far from any order. Regardless, the officer would have to claim the cigarette posed a threat to his safety, which is not mentioned at all (or the fact that he pulled is taser out) in his incident report. I also don't know how you go from "You mind putting out your cigarette please" to "GET OUT OF THE CAR!" (9:20)
2) Unless they find evidence in visible sight of the car of you committing a crime, have reasonable suspicion there is something on you, or for the officer's physical safety (either from traffic or you). Basically, just like everything else, they have to have probable cause to do so. If the officer had feared for his safety from traffic, he should have done at the beginning of the stop, however, he does not. He seems to do so because she rightfully claims the car as her personal property. (9:25)
3) Unless he has probably cause of you committing a crime, again, not putting out a cigarette out is not resisting arrest, be being belligerent/public nuisance etc. He does not have the right to open your door and drag you out. She does get out of the car though. (9:35-10)
4) Claiming something as a lawful order does not make it a lawful order. He is a police officer, not a judge. (9:51, 10:26, 11:20, 11:24)
5) He had no reasonable suspicion to put her under arresting, nor did he state why she was under arrest. The only crime she has committed to this point was failure to signal. (10:10)
6) You have the right to record police action, the only time he can claim you to stop is if he perceives it as a physical threat (10:52-11). She does put her phone out.
7) Being compliant must first require the police officer to be doing some legal, which is he was not. (11:27)
8) You have to be committing an offense to be resisting arrest. She was being complaint with the offense that she actually did, resisting arrest cannot be a standalone offense. (13:43)
9) "You need to leave!". As far as it looks, this is not a closed crime scene or private property. Whomever he speaking to has the lawful right to be at that location. Filming or watching the police is not illegal. (14:22)
It's an hour long, and so I'll just stop there.

Should she have acted any differently with the officer? Yes. I fail to see how in any way that it was a lawful arrest or that required the level of force actually used.

William67 said:
And no, it isn't the cops fault. If she hadn't killed herself in the cell, she would most likely done it somewhere else. When people decide to actually commit suicide, they will find a way to do it.

The motion-activated camera outside her cell recorded no movement for 90 minutes, a violation of Texas policy. Not to mention the intake forms list a variety of different things saying no suicide intentions, another said 2014 attempt, and one said she had suicidal thoughts in the last year.

Cearbhall · Aug 1, 2015

Darth Bagel said:
I can condone hunting of animals like deer, elk, duck, pheasant, etc. But big game is almost always targeting endangered species and is more about selfish sport than survival. I loathe it.

Agreed. I don't understand the concept of making killing into a sport, especially when it's an animal such as this one.

Aldebaran · Aug 1, 2015

Cearbhall said:
Agreed. I don't understand the concept of making killing into a sport, especially when it's an animal such as this one.

The thing is, people enjoy doing many different things that we may not understand. Hunting large game (or any game at all), driving on a racetrack at 200MPH, doing death-defying stunts such as skydiving. But people enjoy different things. Large game hunting is enjoyed by many, and it appears that this one person is being made a poster child by the leftist anti-hunting crowd to support their cause.

Cearbhall · Aug 1, 2015

Aldebaran said:
The thing is, people enjoy doing many different things that we may not understand.

I feel zero obligation to approve of everything that people enjoy doing. I'm also actually very glad that I don't understand the enjoyment of certain things. Talk about leftist logic...

Aldebaran · Aug 1, 2015

Cearbhall said:
I feel zero obligation to approve of everything that people enjoy doing. I'm also actually very glad that I don't understand the enjoyment of certain things. Talk about leftist logic...

I wasn't suggesting you had to approve of them. I'm just saying that there are things people enjoy doing that other people don't understand the enjoyment of.

leothelioness · Aug 1, 2015

Darth Bagel said:
I can condone hunting of animals like deer, elk, duck, pheasant, etc. But big game is almost always targeting endangered species and is more about selfish sport than survival. I loathe it.

This. There is so much wrong with the way this whole thing was carried out especially when you consider his history. Apparently he had a prior run in with the Feds for poaching black bear in the U.S. and then lied to the federal authorities about it. Got away with only a fine. Clearly the dude is a poacher and has not learned his lesson.

That said, I thought lions were a protected species.

Gnarwhal · Aug 1, 2015

leothelioness said:
This. There is so much wrong with the way this whole thing was carried out especially when you consider his history. Apparently he had a prior run in with the Feds for poaching black bear in the U.S. and then lied to the federal authorities about it. Got away with only a fine. Clearly the dude is a poacher and has not learned his lesson.

That said, I thought lions were a protected species.

I don't know about lions as a whole but Cecil certainly was protected. One of the men Palmer hired to hunt Cecil lured him out of the sanctuary where he was more vulnerable, Palmer shot him which started the slow death.

Toro · Aug 1, 2015

leothelioness said:
This. There is so much wrong with the way this whole thing was carried out especially when you consider his history. Apparently he had a prior run in with the Feds for poaching black bear in the U.S. and then lied to the federal authorities about it. Got away with only a fine. Clearly the dude is a poacher and has not learned his lesson.

That said, I thought lions were a protected species.

Don't worry Leo, anyone hunting the lioness will have to take out the bull first. :hug:

Great to see you post.

have wondered how you have been.

HotRhymez · Aug 2, 2015

I look forward to the day all governments outlaw and ban "trophy" hunting so we don't have to hear stupid stories like this. Hunting is stupid. Walter Palmer is stupid. Killing any innocent animal is stupid (unless you are super badly starving). This is all stupid. The End.

William67 · Aug 2, 2015

TX_Matt said:
Have you seen the actual arrest video? I have and I fail to see how in any way she was the one who was acting belligerent. Sarcastic and sassy? I'd say so, but far from belligerent or disturbing the peace. I'd post it but there's foul language. Here's everywhere the cop went wrong.

1) The police do not have the lawful authority to tell you to put out a cigarette. "You mind putting your cigarette please" is his exact wording, which is far from any order. Regardless, the officer would have to claim the cigarette posed a threat to his safety, which is not mentioned at all (or the fact that he pulled is taser out) in his incident report. I also don't know how you go from "You mind putting out your cigarette please" to "GET OUT OF THE CAR!" (9:20)
2) Unless they find evidence in visible sight of the car of you committing a crime, have reasonable suspicion there is something on you, or for the officer's physical safety (either from traffic or you). Basically, just like everything else, they have to have probable cause to do so. If the officer had feared for his safety from traffic, he should have done at the beginning of the stop, however, he does not. He seems to do so because she rightfully claims the car as her personal property. (9:25)
3) Unless he has probably cause of you committing a crime, again, not putting out a cigarette out is not resisting arrest, be being belligerent/public nuisance etc. He does not have the right to open your door and drag you out. She does get out of the car though. (9:35-10)
4) Claiming something as a lawful order does not make it a lawful order. He is a police officer, not a judge. (9:51, 10:26, 11:20, 11:24)
5) He had no reasonable suspicion to put her under arresting, nor did he state why she was under arrest. The only crime she has committed to this point was failure to signal. (10:10)
6) You have the right to record police action, the only time he can claim you to stop is if he perceives it as a physical threat (10:52-11). She does put her phone out.
7) Being compliant must first require the police officer to be doing some legal, which is he was not. (11:27)
8) You have to be committing an offense to be resisting arrest. She was being complaint with the offense that she actually did, resisting arrest cannot be a standalone offense. (13:43)
9) "You need to leave!". As far as it looks, this is not a closed crime scene or private property. Whomever he speaking to has the lawful right to be at that location. Filming or watching the police is not illegal. (14:22)
It's an hour long, and so I'll just stop there.

Should she have acted any differently with the officer? Yes. I fail to see how in any way that it was a lawful arrest or that required the level of force actually used.

The motion-activated camera outside her cell recorded no movement for 90 minutes, a violation of Texas policy. Not to mention the intake forms list a variety of different things saying no suicide intentions, another said 2014 attempt, and one said she had suicidal thoughts in the last year.

Actually, she was being confrontational. He asked her to put out her cigarette. To which she responded, "Im in MY car, you don't have the right to tell me to put out the cigarette". Her head was turned, looking at him when she blew smoke. That is basically blowing smoke in his face. She admitted she was irritated. She was acting aggressively. Then, when he legally tells her to exit the vehicle, she refuses. That, by its very definition, is acting belligerently. He was within his legal authority to arrest her. If she had acted in a reasonable manner, she would have received a ticket, just like the driver he pulled over before her.

1. The cop told her to get out of the car for his own safety. She was acting belligerently and that causes people to do stupid things. There was a case in Charlotte, NC. Cop pulled a woman over because she was weaving. He smelled alcohol and told her to exit the car. She refused and when he tried to remove her, she started the car. He tried to remove the keys. She put the car into drive and sped away...with the cop hanging out the window. The cop managed to get to his sidearm and he shot her in the head. It was ruled justified.

2. After the confrontation starts, he is seen trying to remove her. At that moment, she has added resisting arrest.

3. The reason he didn't tell her why she was being arrested is because cops know that increases the chances of someone attacking them. He told her to put her phone down because he was arresting her and needed to cuff her. They only inform you of the charges after you are cuffed and calm. After he had her cuffed, he instructed her to stand still. Again, she refused.

4. When the female officer arrives, she witnesses Bland kick the arresting officer. Now, she has also added assault to the list of charges. And all this because Bland gets upset because he pulls her over and is going to issue a warning ticket.

As for them violating police procedures, while that may warrant a reprimand, it certainly isn't a crime. The coroner will have to determine time of death to know if it would have mattered if they had followed procedure. Death from strangulation can occur within minutes. And, depending upon how she did it, death could have been almost instantaneous. And chances are that they ignored the "attempt" and "thoughts" on the records because at the time of her arrest, she seemed enraged, not suicidal.

William67 · Aug 2, 2015

HotRhymez said:
I look forward to the day all governments outlaw and ban "trophy" hunting so we don't have to hear stupid stories like this. Hunting is stupid. Walter Palmer is stupid. Killing any innocent animal is stupid (unless you are super badly starving). This is all stupid. The End.

Vegan?

leothelioness · Aug 2, 2015

Darth Bagel said:
I don't know about lions as a whole but Cecil certainly was protected. One of the men Palmer hired to hunt Cecil lured him out of the sanctuary where he was more vulnerable, Palmer shot him which started the slow death.

They claim they didn't know he was collared until after they killed him. Of course upon realizing he was collared they proceeded to take off the collar and sever his head for a trophy. Pretty clear intent of wrong doing. They all should be prosecuted.

leothelioness · Aug 2, 2015

Toro said:
Don't worry Leo, anyone hunting the lioness will have to take out the bull first.

Great to see you post. have wondered how you have been.

Hey, Toro. Been doing well.

Gnarwhal · Aug 2, 2015

leothelioness said:
They claim they didn't know he was collared until after they killed him. Of course upon realizing he was collared they proceeded to take off the collar and sever his head for a trophy. Pretty clear intent of wrong doing. They all should be prosecuted.

Agreed.

American Dentist Identified as Killer of Famed Lion in Zimbabwe

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