The Trinity

7xlightray · Jul 31, 2015

razzelflabben said:
.

It's one thing to know scripture, it's another to use it properly, and must be give by God.

Things are getting clear. No, either you are able to, or your not able to. You can't be able to, and not able to, that's contradictory. Jesus was tempted, which God is not able to be tempted, yet he yielded his will to the Father's. Jesus was able, but chose not to. God the Father empowered him to resist, as He also does with all His children, those that are His, Whom He indwells, as He dwelt in Christ. If you can be tempted, you are able to sin. It is a continual overcoming, it is continually walking, until we reach the goal. God knows those that are His, He knew Jesus would be prosperous, but that did not mean he was not able. If we stay in the vine, there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God. We need to keep full of the Spirit, for we are able to quench it. Jesus grew strong, and increased in wisdom. There is the covering of the blood, and there is a raising of ourselves (as Jesus did, as he also told his disciples to Luke 21:16-19. John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power(G1849 – exousia - - authority, power of choice) to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name).

There is the covering of the blood, and there is a raising of ourselves, by how we live, through the Spirit of God...

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Notice, not only the blood of the Lamb, but their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death. Some just like the blood, they don't have the testimony, nor do they loved not their lives unto the death.

1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

He's speaking to timothy, he's talking to Timothy, ...Timothy.

Yup! We must use all the Word, and all the Word must fit together.

It was God the Father that raised him from the dead.

Isaiah 55
3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

You said a person soul does not die, it continues to live after death.

So, did his soul die, or did he die spiritually?

My understanding from what you told me, he must have died spiritually. Is there something other then spiritual death, and physical death? 2 Corinthians 5:21 he hath made him to be sin for us.

LoveofTruth · Jul 31, 2015

7xlightray said:
I think I should be able to give understanding to all these from this one passage.

Isaiah 48
12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I [Father's living Word that comes out of His mouth, and expresses Him. 1 John 1 would be of help here, and explains John 1] am He [The living Word that became flesh, the son of God. The only way to become a son of God is if He makes you. The Father hid Himself in Christ Isaiah 45:15 and verse 14 saying “Surely God is in thee,” “and the world knew him not John 1:10” this is why when Thomas realized (for he was there with Philip just before his arrest) said, my lord (Jesus) and my God (Father), because he seen the work of God the Father John 14:10-11, by God the Father raising Christ from the dead. God the Father spoke (His Word) in time past in (G1722 – en – in: which means inside) the prophets, but in these last days has spoken to us in (G1722 – en – in: which means inside) His Son)], I am the First, I am also the Last [It's the Fathers Spirit, written Word, the fullness of God, the Law that was written in Jesus, and He took His Spirit that was in His son, and put it in us Numbers 11:17. The Father is the first from Jesus to the last, for it is His Spirit, His Word. And the son's Spirit (which is the Father's Spirit, for there is only one Spirit) is in all the rest Numbers 11:17].

13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together [speaking of the Word of God, but God's Word is not a person. His Word became the foundation of the earth, but the earth is not God. And His Word will become flesh, which Adam was not made in this way, Adam was taken from the earth].

14 “All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The Lord [Father] loves him [Jesus];
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.

15 I [the Word, Spirit, God's power, His wisdom, what God is like, the Father], even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him [Jesus],
I [the Father's Word, Him] have brought [H935 – bo - to come in, come, go in, go] him [Jesus], and his way will prosper [Isaiah 55:11. And the enemy will not deceive, or defile him Psalm 89:22].

16 “Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I [Word of Life, that was with God the Father, and is God the Father] was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have sent Me [His Word that now became flesh, and will accomplish all that He sent it to do Isaiah 55:11, for it is God the Father leading, and working in him].”

17 Thus says the Lord [Father], your Redeemer [Father, for He was in Christ reconciling the wold to Himself 2 Corinthians 5:19, as also Jesus said it was the Father doing the works in him, as the Father should be doing our works in us, that He planed before the foundation of the world that we should walk in. It also speaks of Christ, for he made him to be sin for us 2 Corinthians 5:21 and the Father redeemed him from the grave as a kinsman for he knew no sin],
The Holy One of Israel [Father]:
“I am the Lord your God [Father],
Who teaches you [Us, and Jesus] to profit,
Who leads you [Us, and Jesus Isaiah 45:13, Psalm 89:22] by the way you should go.

Isaiah 44 and 45, should aid in understanding, that it is the Father working in Christ, which I've also posted somewhere in this thread.

Once you get this, you will never go back, for not only will you understand Isaiah 14:12-14, and 2 Thessalonians 2, but you will see the love of God like you've never seen it before. God cannot leave heaven, to earth His footstool, and take up residence in a house, never mind a man that lives in the house, nor can the immortal God die. He had to send a son, His Word, that would do His will. Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness 1 Timothy 3:16.

such a corrupt twist of scripture

let me ask you do you believe that the Son of God existed as the Son of God before he came to the earth? and before he came in the flesh? Do you believe in the eternal Son of God?

justlookinla · Jul 31, 2015

Aijalon said:
and what was your point then? Did you not realize that in other passages Jesus is identified as God the Father, as I showed. You don't seem to be paying attention.

The discussion was concerning the passage in Philippians. We've seen that there's only one God in the passage, God the Father.....that was the point.

Now, if you wish to discuss the issue scripture by scripture, I'll be more than happy to do it. I'm just not going to do the wall of text type of discussion for the reasons I gave earlier.

justlookinla · Jul 31, 2015

Aijalon said:
so in some passages Jesus refers to a God greater than himself (not hard to fathom, since Jesus at the time was not glorified, he was made lowly). And in other passages he is identified as the Supreme God over all things, and he even answers questions about the Father as "yeah, that's me" (Jn 14 paraphrased). Whaaaaaaaaat is there to argue about?

Would you like to discuss John 14:8-13? I'm assuming that's the passage you're referring to.

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

7xlightray · Jul 31, 2015

razzelflabben said:
since none of you all seems to be listening, I just did a search of the web for passages that talk about tempting God...notice that in this list, nothing says that God Himself cannot be tempted to do something, in fact, we know that God has changed His mind, that would be a form of temptation..

That was the context we were speaking in “sin.”
Who was talking about God changing His mind, as you have put it, for it was in the context of sin?

razzelflabben said:
....it is also interesting to note that in trinity theology, Jesus was both fully God and fully Man, as being fully man He was able to be tempted, as per the temptations of Christ. So, I guess according to scripture, you lose.

Not unless Jesus the person stopped being God, or maybe there was another Jesus person that was not God?

You said, Jesus the God person was only in a shell. So, Jesus the person would be the God, and he would be the one being tempted to sin. His body didn't have it's own other person did it? So, it was Jesus the God person in the shell (body, flesh), that was being tempted with sin. Not unless there is another Jesus person?

razzelflabben said:
Now, to be fair, I'm guessing you intended this passage in James...James 1:13...When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; which does not say that God is not tempted, but that He is not tempted by evil...why would that be? Because He is so holy that He cannot even look upon evil...that would be a pretty good reason, now wouldn't it. Yet Jesus took on the flesh and in doing so, He was fully God and fully man, that is to say, two natures. thus no problem for trinity doctrine...Remember on the cross, "My God, My God why have you forsaken me?" He was forsaken because He was bearing the sins of the world.

I think that would be a huge problem. Which Jesus was being tempted? He was only one person wasn't he? Jesus the person was still God wasn't he? There wasn't another man Jesus person was there?

"He can't even look upon evil," and yet he was made to be sin. And when was he condemned...
Galatians 3:13 ...being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

As you have even stated yourself "Remember on the cross, "My God, My God why have you forsaken me?" He was forsaken because He was bearing the sins of the world."

razzelflabben said:
How could He be our example of Godly living if He wasn't fully man and fully God? as you have repeatedly been shown, this discussion only testifies to the truth of trinity

By the Father's Spirit indwelling the man Jesus, without measure.

razzelflabben said:
...but let's also talk about you say He knew Jesus would be prosperous yet Jesus was poor

I was not referring to wealth, but not important.

razzelflabben said:
...I don't even know what you are trying to ask here...spiritual death is separation from God...when Jesus was separated from God, it was for our sins. Remember on the cross, "My God, My God why have you forsaken me?" He was forsaken because He was bearing the sins of the world.

I'm was asking, how was Jesus soul dead?
But it would seem you have answered it anyway.
So, if “spiritual death is separation from God,” as you have stated, and you also saying “when Jesus was separated from God,” I take it your saying Jesus spiritually died?

7xlightray · Aug 1, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
let me ask you do you believe that the Son of God existed as the Son of God before he came to the earth? and before he came in the flesh? Do you believe in the eternal Son of God?

Let me ask you, how could the Son of God be a Son of God, before he came to earth? I thought he was only the Son of God in his humanity? If he was the Son of God before he came to earth, how could he be that God that he is the Son of? For a Son cannot be the one they are a Son of. How could the Son of God have a God before he came to earth?

Pay close attention to verses 4 and 5

Isaiah
28 Who says of Cyrus [Jesus], ‘He is My shepherd,
And he shall perform all My pleasure,
Saying to Jerusalem, “You shall be built,”
And to the temple, “Your foundation shall be laid.”’

1 “Thus says the Lord [Father] to His anointed [Jesus],
To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held—
To subdue nations before him [put all his enemies under his feet]
And loose the armor of kings,
To open before him the double doors,
So that the gates will not be shut:

2 ‘I will go before you [in John the Baptist]
And make the crooked places straight;
I will break in pieces the gates of bronze
And cut the bars of iron.

3 I will give you the treasures of darkness
And hidden riches of secret places,
That you may know that I, the Lord,
Who call you by your name,
Am the God of Israel.

4 For Jacob My servant’s sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I [Father] have named you [Jesus], though you have not known Me.

5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
I will gird you, though you have not known Me,

LoveofTruth · Aug 1, 2015

7xlightray said:
Let me ask you, how could the Son of God be a Son of God, before he came to earth? I thought he was only the Son of God in his humanity? If he was the Son of God before he came to earth, how could he be that God that he is the Son of? For a Son cannot be the one they are a Son of. How could the Son of God have a God before he came to earth?

Pay close attention to verses 4 and 5

Isaiah
28 Who says of Cyrus [Jesus], ‘He is My shepherd,
And he shall perform all My pleasure,
Saying to Jerusalem, “You shall be built,”
And to the temple, “Your foundation shall be laid.”’

1 “Thus says the Lord [Father] to His anointed [Jesus],
To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held—
To subdue nations before him [put all his enemies under his feet]
And loose the armor of kings,
To open before him the double doors,
So that the gates will not be shut:

2 ‘I will go before you [in John the Baptist]
And make the crooked places straight;
I will break in pieces the gates of bronze
And cut the bars of iron.

3 I will give you the treasures of darkness
And hidden riches of secret places,
That you may know that I, the Lord,
Who call you by your name,
Am the God of Israel.

4 For Jacob My servant’s sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I [Father] have named you [Jesus], though you have not known Me.

5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
I will gird you, though you have not known Me,

Here is something I wrote about the Eternal Son of God

consider many cults deny the eternal existance of the Son of God

THE SON OF GOD, AND HIS PRE-EXISTANCE

The scriptures teach clearly that the Son of God existed before he was the Son of Mary. There was never a time when the Son of God wasn’t.

But, some today teach the heresy that the Son of God did not exist before he came to earth and was born of the virgin Mary. And that the Son of God was not the Son of God until his incarnation. They teach that Jesus Christ was not the eternal Son of God, and so deny the pre-existant deity of the Son of God. Others falsely deny that Jesus Christ is God and say that he was just a man.
Those who attack the pre-existance of the Son of God are also attacking the Tri-Unity of the Godhead, or known as the “Trinity”.
The doctrine of the Trinity is very important to the Christian faith and this teaching separates Christianity from every other religion in the world. This teaching declares the true God, who is revealed as one eternal being in three distinct persons, co-equal and co-eternal, who share the same essence and glory and each person is God.
Without the understanding of the Son of God pre-existing, the Trinity is not known. Those who deny this truth, do not have the same Jesus that the bible presents. Some will say that it was the Father that came in the flesh and not the Son. This is an ancient heresy, and a subtle denial of the true Jesus Christ (who is the Son of God eternally) come in the flesh. The Son of God’s pre-existance eternally, is one of the most basic and vital doctrines in scripture.
There are many scriptures that reveal that the Son of God existed eternally, and had a relationship WITH the Father from eternity past and that he was sent by the Father. There are also many verses that show his divinity and divine attributes, here are just a few.

1. “Colossians 1:13,16,17 ” and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:... For by him [the Son] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he [the Son] is before all things, and by him [by the Son] all things consist.”

This is speaking of the Son in verse 13, showing that it is by the Son that all things were created, and the Son is before all things. This shows that the Son of God is not one of those created things himself., since He created all things. Clearly this shows the pre-existance of the Son of God. And if the Son was around when all things were created this shows clearly that he did not come into being only at his birth.

2. John 17:5 “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”

Jesus Christ is speaking here of having glory with the Father BEFORE the world was. This is not a prophecy, but speaking of a reality in the past. And notice that he was WITH the Father, showing distinction of personality between the Father and the Son.

3. “Hebrews 7:3 “Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.”

Malchizedeck was like the Son of God in type, showing that the Son of God had no beginning of days or end of days. He was made in the past like the Son of God

4. "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell? (Prov. 30:4).

Here, the Lord God is referred to and his son. This is not a prophecy because it is speaking in the present tense, he existed when the scripture was written, but he was not fully revealed yet.

5. Hebrews 1:2,8 “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;... But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:...”

It was the Son of God by whom God created the worlds, showing clearly the pre-existance of the Son. If all things were created by him (the Son) and for him (the Son). Then the Son of God was from all eternity. Also, God calls the Son God in verse 8.

6. John 3:16,17 “16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

God gives and sends his Son, it does not read that the Son was created here, but sent. The Son already existed to be able to be sent by God. God sent the Son INTO the world, from heaven where he was.

7. This is similar to Isaiah 9:6 where we read “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given” Here we see the humanity of Jesus being born as a man, and his divinity and pre-existance as a son “given”. This can refer to his Eternal Sonship. To be “given” is not the same as “born”. He is fully God and man,

8. Micah 5:2 “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall He come forth unto me that is to be Ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” Micah 5:2 .

The Son of God is from everlasting, and has always been, as this verse says. Showing his pre-existance.

9. John 6:51“ I am the living bread which came down from heaven:... “

Clearly Jesus existed before and came down from heaven as the verse says. Showing pre-existance as the Son, who was given (Isaiah 9:6) and sent into the world (John 3:16)

10. John 6: 57,58 “As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven”

Here again, Jesus shows that he existed in heaven before and was sent by the Father. The word Father here shows relational understanding, and that the Father did not send himself, but rather the Son.

Here are few more references to his coming down from heaven and being sent by God the Father and where he was before he came in the flesh. These verses are plain to those with eyes to see.

11. John 6:62 “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?”

12. John 3:13 “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

13. John 16:27 “and have believed that I came out from God.”

14. 1 John 4:10 “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”

The Son is sent from the Father , from heaven to Earth.

15. John 16:28 “I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.”

Jesus said that he was in heaven before he came to the earth and he goes back to heaven with the Father, showing distinct personalities, before he even came to earth and the location of his pre-existance.

16. “for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.” John 8:16

This verse shows that Jesus is not alone, it is not Jesus only as some teach, or Oneness groups. He speaks of his pre-existance as the Son and being sent by the Father. Again we see two distinct personalities here.

17. Isaiah 48:12-17 “12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.... 15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God”

These are powerful Trinity verses in the Bible. We see the First and the Last speaking here, this is the Lord God Almighty as Revelation 1:8 says, and this Lord God Almighty is “he that liveth and was dead” and is “alive for evermore”, Revelation 1:18. This is Jesus who died for us and rose again.The First and Last is Jesus as Rev 22:13-16 says .
So it is the Lord, the First and the last that is speaking of, the Lord GOD and his Spirit sending him. Again we see the pre-existant Son before he was sent. And the Tri Unity of the Godhead as well.
17. Romans 8:3 “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:”

The Son was sent from the Father in the likeness of sinful flesh. This shows that the Son was not just a man, or flesh. But sent from God and made flesh (with John 1:14).

18. Hebrews 5:7,8 “Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;”

In the days of his flesh, shows that there were days when he was not in the flesh. And we read. He was sent from the Father being a Son, and a body was prepared for him before he came in the flesh.

19. Hebrews 10:5 “Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:”

Clearly again, he existed before the body was prepared, and he came into the world from somewhere else, as we read, that was from heaven with the Father as the Son.

20. Mark 12:6 “Having yet therefore one son, his well beloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.”

In this story we read of the Sons pre-existance and being sent into the world by the Father. If someone doesn’t exist how can they be sent?

21. Philippians 2:6-8 “6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man,”

Again we read of the word BEING in the form of God, not created, but “being”. His being is spoken of in the past tense, before he took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men. He existed before to be able to be made in likeness of men. Again proving his pre-existance.

22. John 1:1-4,9,14 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men... 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

John writes that the Word of God was WITH God, “with” in Greek is “pros”, meaning, face to face relationship. And all things were made by “him”, this is a reference to the Word of God showing personality, and not just a plan, and He was there at creation.
The Word is “eternal life” and the Word was seen and heard and handled as 1 John 1:1,2 says.
In 1 Timothy 3:16 we read that “God was manifest in the flesh”, and the one manifest in the flesh is the Son of God as we read in 1 John 3:8 “For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” And the Word was made flesh John 1:14. So, the Word of God is the Son of God who is God manifest in the flesh. And he was in the beginning with God John 1:3. If “he” was “with” God from the beginning this plainly shows his pre-existance and personality.
To be “manifest” means, declared, made known, revealed. It was the only begotten Son of God who came down from heaven and was with the Father before (John 17:5) and is in the bosom of the Father (John 1:18). The Word of God, is the Son of God, and the life, this is Jesus Christ come in the flesh. It was the Son , not the Father that was made flesh.

23. Galatians 1:15,16 “But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me,”

We see that the Son was in Paul even from a child , though not in union with him until he was revealed in him. The Son was there but not revealed till later.

24. Galatians 4:6 “And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”

This shows the Son to be not just a man, but Spirit and the life. Jesus Christ is eternal life.

25. 1 John 1:1-3 “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us”

Since Jesus Christ is eternal life, then he always existed because eternal life is just that, ETERNAL!!, and he existed as the Son of God eternally with the Father from the beginning. In him was life and the life has always been. Notice also that the Word of life can be seen and handled, and heard, this shows the Word is not just a plan, And John 1:3 says the Word of God is the personal, “HIM”, this is the Son of God that was with the Father.

26. 2 John 9 “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.”

This shows that men can have BOTH the Father and the Son in them, showing distinction of persons, And Jesus said “we will make our abode with you" John 14:23 speaking of the Father and the Son in them. They are also given the Holy Ghost. John 14:26.

27. Hebrews 1:3 “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person”

Notice it says who “BEING” the brightness of his glory. “BEING” is not born. Being shows the eternality of the Son.

28. "3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:" (Romans 13,4)

We see his humanity and His preexistant divinity as the Son of God. We see he was made and declared. Unto us a child is born and a son is given.

To deny the pre-existance of the Son of God is to deny the true Jesus Christ and his deity as the Son of God. Jesus asked “Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?” Matthew 16:13. And Peter said “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Matthew 16:16. Jesus referred to his humanity as the Son of man but Peter saw his divinity as the Son of God, by revelation Flesh and blood had not revealed this unto him. It was a spiritual revelation. Jesus said, “for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.“ John 8:24.

Let all consider and believe!!

razzelflabben · Aug 1, 2015

7xlightray said:
I said, I've given scripture, but here ya go...

1 Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

2 Chronicles 2:6
But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?

2 Chronicles 6:18
But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!

I said, I did not make such a claim.

the passage I gave you shows that God is everywhere, there is no where out of Him...so I really can't guess your point at this point, given all the scripture it seems like your original point was off topic. You are invited to fill in how it applies to the topic at hand and what your point is cause apparently I missed it. It sounded like you were trying to say that God isn't everywhere yet scripture says He is...so, now I am confused as to what you wanted to communicate.

razzelflabben · Aug 3, 2015

justlookinla said:
I've changed nothing. I'm telling you the same thing over and over and over and over.
No I haven't said "His followers" or "His angels". And it's 'cite', not 'sight'.
I've never said anything different. Quote me if I have. Reference it.
Everyone. As I've said each and every time.
Everyone. As I've said each and every time.
I've never said only "angels" or "followers of Jesus" when referencing 'every knee and tongue'.
And I've answered each and every time that it's everyone.
Hopefully you'll not falsely accuse me again.

okay, we have finally gotten you to confess that everyone here means everyone, great, we are making progress. Next you need to explain why Jesus, who you claim is NOT God, is exalted to the authority of God, as in everyone will submit to His authority. That is an absolute authority, absolute authority referring to something reserved for God alone.

justlookinla · Aug 3, 2015

razzelflabben said:
well, I am just looking at the text and not trying to read anything into it....you are suppose to be helping me do that since you are suppose to have some superior knowledge about the topic. So, according to you, to bow before someone and to confess them to be Lord means to submit.

I don't claim to have superior knowledge. Yes, it's submit.

when I look up submit in websters, and look only at the definitions that might be able to fit, this one comes the closest, iow's we aren't turning in a report or something so those possibles are scratched.

a : to yield oneself to the authority or will of another : surrender

When I look up the word in the bible, it means....

G5293
ὑποτάσσω
hupotassō
hoop-ot-as'-so
From G5259 and G5021; to subordinate; reflexively to obey: - be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

Now, I have another question for you. If every knee is going to submit to Jesus authority and every tongue confess to His Lordship, why is God the Father, giving Jesus the non God the authority that is reserved for God alone?

It's not reserved for God the Father alone. Read the passage again...

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Jesus God and Father gave Him the authority.

You see, no matter if we use the word submit or worship, it all comes back to the same question that you refuse to answer....In this passage, God is exalting Jesus to a position that God has already reserved only for Him, you know the ONE true God. So why would God exalt a non God to the position of God and then not tell us that He changed His mind about His previous instruction?

No, God is exalting Jesus (now think about that) to a position that Jesus previously didn't have. In your scenario, God the Father is exalting God to a position God didn't previously have.

See the Gods problem?

justlookinla · Aug 3, 2015

razzelflabben said:
okay, we have finally gotten you to confess that everyone here means everyone, great, we are making progress.

No, it's not "finally". I've said that very thing over and over and over and over.

Next you need to explain why Jesus, who you claim is NOT God, is exalted to the authority of God, as in everyone will submit to His authority. That is an absolute authority, absolute authority referring to something reserved for God alone.

See my post #724.

And I've got a busy day. Will respond to any response you have later.

7xlightray · Aug 3, 2015

razzelflabben said:
so...your point is that the God you serve is so wimpy that He cannot be every where at once, including but not limited to in a human being....how sad. The God I serve is big enough to be everywhere and anywhere HE wants to be and in any form HE wants to take. I guess that is the core of our difference then, your God isn't big enough and mine is....and I thought we served the same God all this time, glad to know better now

No, the difference is, God is so big, and is everywhere, He cannot cease to be everywhere, that it would not be possible for Him to leave everywhere, and fit all of Himself into a man, even as the scriptures declare. On the other hand you declare the opposite, that your God can become so small, that a man can contain Him. Is that what your telling me? Or, are you of this contradictory doctrine, that Jesus left the Father came to earth, but still was everywhere at the same time?

1 Kings 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
That's pretty clear, a house can't contain him, how much less a man?

razzelflabben said:
Huh? where the ........are you getting two or three different Jesus? You really aren't good at understanding trinity are you? Just talking about understanding here, not agreeing or disagreeing. One Jesus, but within that Jesus, is a man nature and a God nature, just like scripture tells us. It always amazes me how hard people like you try to twist the doctrine in order to rail against it.

Does not matter if Jesus had two natures, either that person is God or their not. Man has human nature, and he can also have God's nature dwelling in him, but that person is not God. It's the person that is being tempted. When Jesus was being tempted who was being tempted? The nature is the nature of the person, but it is we the Person that is being tempted to sin. I may have human nature, and God's nature dwell in me, but my person is not God, only the person God, is God; and God is what He is, as in God is love, He can't stop being that. So, does not matter if God were somehow to become a man, that God person would still be that God person, and that God person can't be tempted to sin. God the person cannot be tempted, because He is love, He cannot do evil, because He is love, so He can't even be tempted to sin. God is what He is, He does not change, therefore at no time, anytime can the Person God be tempted to sin.

How many persons was Jesus? He is one person, and it was that person that was being tempted. Now that one persons is either God or a man. That person cannot be two persons, so either that person is God who cannot be tempted, or man, who can be tempted. It's the person that is being tempted. So, if the person is God, He's not being tempted by sin, because He can't be tempted to sin, for He is all light, and no darkness in Him at all, and only God is good. If the person is man he can be tempted with sin, doesn't mean he will, but he can be tempted to sin.

So again, the person Jesus was tempted, showing that the Person Jesus was a man, for it's only the person that can be tempted, who chooses, or does not choose to sin. If Jesus the person is God, he could not have been tempted to sin. What you are saying is God can take off who He is, what He is, His nature, change and become a human, even a human person, that can be tempted to sin, and yet somehow not able to take it off - again contratictory.

That's how great my God is, and my hope, that He can never be tempted to sin, or my hope is not secure, if there is even the slightest possibility, He could be tempted to sin; that would be a very scary thought.

I'm not saying these things because you don't know them, but because you probably do.

You can argue all you want that I don't understand the trinity (though I believed and taught trinity for over 25 years, and there is so many differing doctrines of trinity out there, it's a smorgasbord), or that this does not agree with trinity doctrine, doesn't matter to me, I only care what God's Word says.

7xlightray · Aug 3, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
Notice the words

"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men."

So God is the Word and is God a personal being?, Also God is "with" the Word, which is God.

Then we read the words, "All things were made by him; and without him ". the key words there are "HIM". This shows personal qualitites of the Word.

this Word is God and is with God and is HIM and the Word which is HIM created all things. So who is the "HIM" in this section,

"
into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom [in the Son] we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him [the Son] were all things created [as in John 1:1, the Word was God and the Word is "HIM"], that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him [the Son], and for him [the Son]:

17 And he [the Son]is before all things, and by him [by the Son] all things consist."(Colossians 1:14-16)

The Son is spoken of in all these verses, showing clearly His pre existance and that he is the creator.

and we read,

"2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" (Hebrews 1:2 KJV)

Yes God is a personal being. My word is me, but when the word goes out of my mouth, it is not a personal being. God's Word has the power to become whatever He thinks it to be. If your asking me to explain God's Word/Spirit/Power, what it is, or how it operates, your going to have to ask Him, cause I've never seen God. I know that His Word, His Spirit, His Power, His Wisdom is Him, yet He is able to share it/Him.

God the Father's word, which is His Spirit, and He is Spirit, by His power/Spirit/Word created Heaven and earth, all things. Are you saying as a Trinitarian God the son is the Spirit, and the Spirit is God the Son? I know your not, but that is what you would be pushing.

The He is God, His Spirit, His power, His Word (And much more. I've said this a few times now in this thread) as when the Spirit came upon Mary, Mary conceived, and the Word became flesh. The Son of God did not come upon Mary, and conceive himself. The Father (Who is Spirit) is both the Father and God of the son of God, Jesus, who is the Word in flesh, the image of God.

Hebrews 1:2 by whom [Jesus] also he [Father] made the worlds [G165 – aiōn - ages]; And when did this all happen? When he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

And the world [world - G3625 – oikoumenē - a large community of inhabitants, (not kosmos, or aiōn, nor gē)]he is talking about in verse 6, is as he says, “For He has not put the world [world - G3625 – oikoumenē] to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels Hebrew 2:5.”

Yet, when he does talk about Jesus coming into this world [G2889 – kosmos], in Hebrews 10, this is the word he uses.

Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world [G2889 – kosmos], he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

I believe I've already show the understanding of Colossians in this thread somewhere. But I will post what I wrote to some one else.

You'll notice the similarity to Ephesians 1, that they are saying the same thing, compare Colossians 1 to Ephesians 1, and you'll see they are almost a photo copy of each other, the subject being inheritance. Also, compare with 1 Peter 3:21-22, when were they, angels and authorities and powers, made subject to him? After his resurrection, which is when he received his inheritance. If Jesus created them, then why are they being made subject to him? Did they not know who he was, or is? Many claim it's because of his humanity, but that's only what he is, not who he is. Is he still not the God person, it does not matter what substance God the person puts on (although it does, but I say this for argument sake), God must remain God, or he ceases to be God. And yet to what he is, must not God, remain God, for Him to remain what He is, God? It seems like an absurd argument. Yet God is Spirit, He must remain Spirit for Him to remain God. And this is where John comes in, Jesus come in the flesh, not Spirit.

Colossians 1:12 (KJV) Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: ...15 Who is the image [likeness, the moon a reflection of the sun in a dark world, whom we can look upon in a dark world] of the invisible God [sun, whom we cannot look upon], the firstborn of every creature [it does not matter when the first born is born into the household, or comes into the world, he will become above all other servants in the household by inheritance, and his Father is over all, first born of God the new beginning, first reborn in heaven, angels are servants, mankind are servants, but can be adopted through Christ. Mark 16:15(KJV)15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (creature is the same in both Col. 1:15 and Mark 16:15)]: 16 For [G3754 – hoti- that, because, since] by [G1722 – en – in, by, with] him were all things created [G2936 – ktizō - to make habitable, to people, a place, region, island, to found a city, colony, state, of God creating the worlds, to form, shape: i.e. to completely change or transform, (compare with verse 20 for an understand of what Paul is referring to when he speaks of create, which to transform and make habitable, make peace, and to reconcile all things, whether they be things in (G1909 - epi – upon, on) earth, or things in (G1722 – en – in, by, with) heaven. For example when speaking of “heaven” Revelation 12:1-9,12. And referring to “on earth” it is easy to see he is referring to reconciling us to Himself creating the new man), and that Christ a man inherited it, took it back for man setting things back in order. And to put all enemy's under him. And to destroy death.], that are in [G1722 – en – in, by, with] heaven, and that are in [G1909 - epi – upon, on] earth [verse 20 clears up this verse 16 in it's understanding], [notice it does not say created heaven and earth as it normally does but things “in” and “on” and has to do with authorities] visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created [G2936 – ktizō [as above]] by [G1223 - dia - by, through, for, with] him, and for [G1519 – eis - into, unto, to, towards, for, among] him [because he is the first born, a man, and it must be a man, who inherited all that belongs to God, Satan having no rights, no inheritance, nothing]: 17 And he is before [which can mean in the sense of “above” as in James 5:12; 1 Peter 4:8] all things, and by [G1722 – en – in, by, with] him all things consist [G4921 – synistēmi - to put together, unite parts into one whole (this fits with verse 20, and what Ephesians 1:10 says, and gives understanding to verse 16. Uniting all things in heaven and in earth, and made habitable, but is a process as we know till all his enemies are put under his feet)]. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him [Jesus] should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace [whether in heaven or on earth] through the blood of his cross, by him [Jesus] to reconcile all things unto himself [Father]; by him [Jesus], I say, whether they be things in [G1909 - epi – upon, on] earth, or things in [G1722 – en – in, by, with] heaven.

Which fits with...

Ephesians 1:7(KJV) In whom we have redemption through his blood [you'll notice this verse speaking of his blood, flows right through to verse 10 through his blood gather together in one all things in heaven and on earth, as it says in Colossians 1:20], the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his [Father] will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he [Father] might gather together in one all things [fits with Colossians 1:17,20] in Christ, both which are in [G1722 – en – in, by, with] heaven, and which are on [G1909 - epi – upon, on] earth [again notice “in” and “on”]; even in him: 11 In whom also [key word in understanding what he has just been talking about, which as we will see is inheritance...] we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his [Father] own will: . . .20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come [through inheritance as a first born]: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

God is not appointed over the whole world...

Job 34:13-15
13 Who gave Him (“Him” is speaking of God) charge over the earth?
Or who appointed Him over the whole world?
14 If He should set His heart on it,
If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
15 All flesh would perish together,
And man would return to dust.

First, this does not say in Colossians 1 Jesus created heaven and earth, but the things in heaven and on earth, and these things are authorities. Nothing about the material world, which should set off in our minds as odd. From the text, and these other passages, it's saying he made it habitable, or made peace in heaven and on earth, in the sense of change, transform, putting all thing right again, even building the new Jerusalem, but we know this happens over time, for he is waiting for his enemies to be put under his feet. We to are also a new creation, but not from scratch, it's more of a transformation. Both “were” in Colossians 1:16 have been added to the text, though it could be understood in that sense. Notice what these things are, kept in context, they all have to do with authority, not the actual creation of all things, that the Father created. May bring to mind that of Genesis 1 to have dominion, and over the works of your hands. Adam who was made last, on the sixth day, yet in the image of God, given authority over God's creation, as Christ was last, but became first over all, and the woman (the new man), created in Adam, and for Adam, as it is with Christ. A man (Jesus) shall leave his mother and father (on this earth) and be joined to his wife (Church) becoming one flesh.

Jesus made heaven habitable, or transformed heaven, Satan and his angels are kicked out of heaven, giving authority to others, restoring proper authority. As it says in Revelation 12, when the son is received up into heaven, and on the throne of God, Satan is cast out of heaven, and not only him, but all his angels as well Revelation 12:9, giving peace to heaven, and those who are in heaven Revelation 12:12a. Now having great wrath he overcomes the saints, and deceives the nations. And he does this by a false Christ. And what does this spirit of antichrist teach? That a man ascends above the clouds, into heaven, in God's temple, sitting on God's throne, proving he is God Isaiah 14:12-14, and 2 Thessalonians 2. That excludes not only every single man on earth, but every human, for there has only been one, that has ascended above the clouds, into heaven, in God's temple, sitting on God's throne, but he did not try to prove he was God, others accused him of being God. And before Jesus returns he is going to reveal this false christ. Just read up on the Bronze (or Copper, or Brass) serpent (Numbers 21:6–9 fiery serpent, Revelation 12:3 look up wording in Greek, it's a fiery (G4450 – pyrros - having the colour of fire, red) serpent (G1404 – drakōn - a dragon, a great serpent)), what they did with it, and what Hezekiah (shadow of Christ's return) did to it 2 Kings 18:3-7.

And there is much more.

I'm trying to call you out.

I don't care about winning some argument, I don't care what I get called, I understand. I am not here to grind steel against steel, for I have already done that, concerning this matter. I'm here to reveal the trinity that was prophesied about, concerning the generation that would come after all the apostles and elder fell asleep, to whoever will here. You will never get me to believe in a trinity, or that Jesus is the God again, for God has opened my eyes concerning these things. If I were to turn back, I may as well tie a rock around my own neck, and cast it into the sea. My only hope, is you'll get to understand why.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

razzelflabben · Aug 8, 2015

I'm back....did you all miss me?

justlookinla said:
I don't claim to have superior knowledge. Yes, it's submit.

whether you claimed some special knowledge or not, many on this thread have tried to imply that special knowledge but none of you all even address the passages presented for discussion.

When I look up the word in the bible, it means....

G5293
ὑποτάσσω
hupotassō
hoop-ot-as'-so
From G5259 and G5021; to subordinate; reflexively to obey: - be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

before we get into the meaning, I'm wondering why you would go to all this work since I already cut and pasted the word meanings from the Thayer Lexicon. do you really think that if you pick meanings that can't really be twisted to fit that it somehow makes your case stronger? Let me show you something very interesting about the word submit that is found in the Lexicon and I mysteriously uncovered when studying how wives are to submit to their husbands....Now, first, before I show you this very interesting knowledge, let me point out to you that the word submit is never used in the Phil 2 passage in question. this is important to our discussion in that it would be easy to pretend that it is and throw off our reasoning together of the passage. Rather, you claim is that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Lordship of Jesus means to submit. Now, in the definition of the word submit, is this little gem, a gem that is usually overlooked by people who want to make this word mean something it doesn't....

This word was a Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden".

So...in order for us to apply your definition of submit to the text in question, it is important for us to look at the rest of the text and determine if the context of the passage is one of military arrangement or whether it is non military in nature, because that information will tell us which meaning is intended.

As I look at the context of Phil. 2, I see nothing about military anything, but rather, the entire context is talking about Jesus humbling Himself, which would be a non military usage. IOW's willingly humbling yourself is not about the military force that the first definition would indicate, thus would lead us to believe the intent is one of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, carrying a burden. If this is what every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Lordship of Jesus to mean here, then we must ask the question yet again...why would God tell us to worship none other than Him, then turn around and exalt a non God, Jesus to a position of honor, glory, and absolutely authority so great that we will have no choice but to bow in yielding, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying the burdens of our live to Him?

Let me tell you a story that illustrates this point. When I was in college, a friend and I decided to walk to the church and pray. when we got to the church, we both decided to take a page from the study we had been doing, and like Abraham, we took off our shoes and stood on holy ground. Before we got half way to the alter to pray, both of us fell to our knees, not because of being forced, but because there was no other choice, we were in the presence of the living God and in that presence, we yielded (gave in) cooperated with, assumed responsibility for our own actions, and carried our burdens to the Lord of Lords and King of Kings. So even if you try to twist the meaning of every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, you have a problem with the word submit, because it still reserves an authority for Jesus that the rest of scripture reserves for the Living God alone.

It's not reserved for God the Father alone. Read the passage again...

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Jesus God and Father gave Him the authority.

as I already showed you, it is in the rest of scripture an authority reserved for God alone, which is the context we need to look at here. IOW's, throughout scripture we are told that that authority is reserved for God alone, now we are being told by you that that previous commandment is stricken from our understanding in this verse, but you show no reason for striking it and removing that understanding in this passage. If you are right in your understanding, there has to be something in the passage that tells us to ignore all the previous passages that tell us to bow to none but God. Ex. 23:24 Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces.

Notice the word in this passage is bow, just like in Phil. where it says every knee will bow, it then tells us that that bowing isn't just submission but worship as well, but we can ignore that little tidbit for the moment and only focus on the bowing part. Ex, 20:5; Ex. 23:13, this one specifies the tongue confessing; in fact, we are told to tear down these things that are bowed to rather than exalt them as Jesus is done here in this passage.

How about some NT now...here are some NT passages that show Jesus to have had this authority all along, even to the point of having the authority to forgive sins....http://www.openbible.info/topics/all_authority_has_been_given_to_me_in_heaven_and_on_earth_

that is, sins that separate us from God. So, now we have to ask the question, who has the authority it forgive sin, but God alone? Look at it this way, can you forgive the sins someone has committed against me, for me? Of course not, I alone can forgive the sins that are committed against me, yet here we see that Jesus authority extended even to the point of being able to forgive sins committed against God Himself. thus we must ask the question, how can a non God, mere man have the authority to forgive what is against God Himself?

No, God is exalting Jesus (now think about that) to a position that Jesus previously didn't have. In your scenario, God the Father is exalting God to a position God didn't previously have.

See the Gods problem?

Now, like I have repeatedly said, at the moment we are just looking at your interpretation for understanding what the intent of the passage is and if your interpretation is consistent with both the text in question and the totality of scripture. So far, the best you have to offer is an attempt to side track us into an interpretation we aren't ready to talk about yet. So, back to your understanding...Jesus had while on earth, the authority to forgive sins, that is to say, He had the authority to forgive sins committed against God for God's sake, iow's Jesus, a none God could forgive on God's behalf....but then we are left with the question, if He already had the authority to forgive sins, and to call angels to rescue Him (didn't yet provide those passages, if you need them let me know) what new authority was given Him in the Phil. 2 passage we are talking about? And why would He need more authority than He already had command over, that being the angels and sins? IOW's while on earth, Jesus had authority to call legions of angels to do His bidding as well as forgive people their sins making them right with God, these are authorities that are reserved for God, but you claim aren't reserved for God, so if they aren't reserved for God (as per your claims) then what new authority was given Jesus and why? In addition, you need to show scriptural evidence for how this new authority that is even greater than the forgiveness of sin and command over angels differs from God's authority. While you are working on that, don't forget that Jesus also had authority over all the earth, over satan Himself, etc. while here on earth, so we have to understand, what new authority was given Him and how that authority differed from the authority of God HImself.

I really enjoy reasoning together over a passage, don't you?

Der Alte · Aug 9, 2015

justlookinla said:
The fact is that someone (Jesus' God) exalted someone else (Jesus) to a position of honor, glory and authority. Why Jesus' God did that is known only to Jesus' God, but that's not the issue. The issue is that Jesus' God anointed someone else (Jesus) and gave Him a name which He didn't previously have, and the submission through confession and bowing brought glory to Jesus' God. Per scripture.

Those who are bowing to Jesus aren't bowing to Him as God. Their bowing to God's Son brings glory to the only God in the passage....Jesus' God and Father....per scripture.

How can you give something to somebody that they already have? There is a giver and there is a receiver. Jesus' God gave and Jesus received. Very basic stuff.

If one reads only 1-2 verses out-of-context they can imagine all sorts of things.
Jesus existed in one form, Philippians 2, vs. 6, but took upon himself another form, vs. 7.

What was Jesus’ form before? If he was literally, actually a man afterward what was he literally, actually before?

Philippians 2:6-11 6. Who, being [continual existence] in the form [μορφη] of God, thought it not robbery [something to be grasped] to be equal with God:

(Greek Interlinear) Philippians 2:6-11 ος {who,} εν {in [the]} μορφη {form} θεου {of god} υπαρχων {subsisting,} ουχ {not} αρπαγμον {something to be used to his own advantage} ηγησατο το {esteemed it} ειναι {the being} ισα {equal} θεω {with god;}

The verb ειναι, translated ”to be,” in the KJV, which appears to be a future tense in English, is a present infinitive, not a future tense. “the being equal with god,” was a, then, present reality not something considered and rejected.

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him[self] the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Jesus’ earthly ministry occurred between verses, 7 and 8. Where the one who was equal with God, vs. 6, the one who, acting upon himself, became flesh, cf. John 1:14, made himself of no reputation, vs. 7, cf. Heb 2:17, took upon himself the form of a servant, and was in the likeness of men, vs. 7. After which God, not merely exalted him, but “highly exalted” him, and glorified him with the same glory he had with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5)

It was here where all the things anti-Trinitarians cannot comprehend happened, e.g. “If Jesus was God, why didn’t he know the hour of his return?” etc., etc., etc.

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

If Jesus was only a mere human being, how does a human being, “humble himself and become obedient unto death?” All mankind is appointed to death, no obedience or humbling involved! Heb 9:27. Were the criminals who were crucified with Jesus also obedient, did they also humble themselves unto death on the cross?

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, cf. [יהוה/YHWH, Isa 45:23] of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, cf. [ יהוה/YHWH, Isa 45:23] to the glory of God the Father.

In verses 10,11 Paul applies Isaiah 45:23, which refers to יהוה/YHWH], to Jesus as I have shown above!

The Committee on Bible Translation worked at updating the New International Version of the Bible to be published in 2011.

In it's notes under "Progress in Scholarship" it discusses the following change:

When the NIV was first translated, the meaning of the rare Greek word αρπαγμον /harpagmos, rendered ‟something to be grasped,” in Philippians 2:6 was uncertain. But further study has shown that the word refers to something that a person has in their possession but chooses not to use to their own advantage. The updated NIV reflects this new information, making clear that Jesus really was equal with God when he determined to become a human for our sake: ‟[Christ Jesus], being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.”

See full translators notes at: Bible Gateway NIV Translator’s Notes

A short excerpt from the 25 page Harvard theological review article αρπαγμον /harpagmos, by Roy Hoover, referenced in the NIV.

‘O petros de arpagmon ton dia stavrou thanton epoieito dia tas soterious elpidas”

(And Peter considered death by means of the cross harpagmon on account of the hope of salvation, Comm in Luc 6)

“Tines…ton thanaton arpagma themenoi ten ton dussebon moxtherias”

(Since some regarded death as harpagma in comparison with the depravity of ungodly men. Hist. Eccl VCIII,12.2)

Not only are arpagma and arpagmos used synonymously in these two statements, but they are used synonymously by the same author in reference to the same object—death—and in expressions whose form precisely parallels that of the arpagmos remark in Phil 2:6.

What [Eusebius] wants to say, rather, is that because of the hope of salvation crucifixion was not a horror to be shunned, but an advantage to be seized.

“Arpagma” is used exactly this way in Hist. Eccl. VIII,12.2. At this point Eusebius is recounting the sufferings of Christians in periods of persecution. Some believers in order to escape torture threw themselves down from rooftops. There can be no suggestion of “robbery” or of violent self-assertion in this remark, nor can self-inflicted death under such circumstances be considered an unanticipated windfall.

Roy W. Hoover, Harvard Theological Review (1971) 95-119, pg. 108

Link to: Hoover Article

razzelflabben · Aug 10, 2015

Well, it appears that the non trinitarian interpretation of Phil. 2 can withstand the questions asked of it, thus, from a biblical standpoint, must be discarded as not truth.

To that end, let's test the trinitarian interpretation. So far the only real question asked is how God could exalt God to the position of God. Now, if we understand trinitarian teaching, we understand that where the Father, Son, and HS are all just One God, we also understand that they are uniquely different in their purpose in the lives of men. In fact, look at I Peter 1:20-21
20 He was chosen before the foundation of the world but was revealed at the end of the times for you 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God

Jesus was revealed, not created, but revealed, iow's already existed before His birth, for our sakes, not for the sake of God. Thus, when we look at Phil 2 we must do so in light of this passage in I Peter and others like it. Where Jesus and God are one, they are also distinctly different from one another. this is not a concept our flesh can understand which is why it can only be understood by faith. Heb. 11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. Just because we can't rationally make sense out of it, doesn't mean it isn't truth, it just means that we believe it by faith.

So, back to Phil. 2, we see God exalting Jesus to the authority of God....but that requires us to ask the question, why? Why did Jesus need to be exalted to equality with God if in fact He was God. The answer also is found in scripture. You see, when Jesus accepted the fleshly body and nature, He did so with a humility that was unlike anything the world had ever seen before or would ever see again. He took on a humility so striking that He would not even consider Himself equal to God the Father while in the fleshly form. We know from Heb. 5:8 that Jesus had to learn obedience, but like every other human being has to learn, why? Because He was full man and fully God. Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 1:19
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

So, since Jesus, when He put on the flesh, humbled Himself to a lower position than God, a position that was rightfully His, the Father, restored Him to His rightful position of authority after His purpose on earth had been accomplished and the flesh was no longer a temptation.

What other questions can we ask of the text that apply to the trinity teachings?

DamianWarS · Aug 10, 2015

JustHisKid said:
If God is not triune, how would that change anything regarding Christian faith?

A God without the trinity cannot love as love requires a recipient. The creation, or us, cannot be where love begins as God then would "need" his creation just so that he can love. Since God needs nothing he does not need us to love fully. God needs to be able to love independently for love to exist at all.

So why not 2in1? 2 is still imperfect because with 2 there is no contrast to fully understand love as a relationship between 2 is only one relationship so love has no real measure. With 3 it is the perfect number to fully allow love. In 3 there are 4 relationships that contrast, 1-2, 2-3, 3-1 and 1-2-3.

Why not 4in1 or 1000in1 then? God is perfect in every way and more than 3in1 doesn't allow anything unique to happen and is redundant. 4in1 is imperfect because it is not needed.

justlookinla · Aug 10, 2015

DamianWarS said:
A God without the trinity cannot love as love requires a recipient.

Not true. A three headed God is not needed, only a giver of love and a receiver of love is required. We see that in that Jesus' God love Him and He loved His God.

The creation, or us, cannot be where love begins as God then would "need" his creation just so that he can love. Since God needs nothing he does not need us to love fully. God needs to be able to love independently for love to exist at all.

An example of love isn't a narcissistic three headed God loving Himself.

So why not 2in1? 2 is still imperfect because with 2 there is no contrast to fully understand love as a relationship between 2 is only one relationship so love has no real measure. With 3 it is the perfect number to fully allow love. In 3 there are 4 relationships that contrast, 1-2, 2-3, 3-1 and 1-2-3.

Why not 4in1 or 1000in1 then? God is perfect in every way and more than 3in1 doesn't allow anything unique to happen and is redundant. 4in1 is imperfect because it is not needed.

For God so loved the world that He loved Himself?

7xlightray · Aug 10, 2015

Is it permitted to worship certain men? Yes, but not as God.

Anyone could have looked these up themselves, if they really wanted to search out the truth of the matter.

Genesis 37:7 There we were, binding sheaves in the field. Then behold, my sheaf arose and also stood upright; and indeed your sheaves stood all around and bowed down [H7812 - shachah – worship Gen 24:48 worship LORD; Gen 23:7, 12 Abraham worship people of the land; Gen 27:29 Isaac blessing Jacob; Exo 23:24 shall not worship other gods] to my sheaf.” 8 And his brothers said to him, “Shall you indeed reign over us? Or shall you indeed have dominion over us?”. . .9 Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, “Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down [H7812 - shachah – worship] to me.” 10 So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down [H7812 - shachah – worship] to the earth before you?”

Genesis 45:8 So now it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father [which is the same word father used in Isaiah 9:6] to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

These dreams God gave to Joseph. Not only his brothers would bow down to him, but even his mother and father who were before him, would also bow down before him. And Joseph a godly man, and ruler over all, received worship. We can bow down and worship men, and kings, with proper respect.

Same word used for worshipping LORD God...

Genesis 24:48 And I bowed down my head, and worshipped [H7812 - shachah – worship] the LORD, and blessed the LORD God of my master Abraham

Isaac blessing Jacob...

Genesis 27:29 Let people serve thee, and nations bow down [H7812 - shachah – worship] to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down [H7812 - shachah – worship] to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.

Used of David and LORD God...

1 Chronicles 29:20 And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped [H7812 - shachah – worship] the LORD, and the king [The king here is David. The same word worship that is used both for God and the man David].

Aramaic word used of Daniel...

Daniel 2:46 Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped [H5457 - cĕgid (Aramaic) – worship Dan 3:28] Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him. 47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

King Nebuchadnezzar worshiped Daniel, but not as God, for this is made clear by verse 47, as it is stated “that your God is a God of gods.” Daniel did not stop them, for they even offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.

Aramaic word used of God...

Daniel 3:28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship [H5457 - cĕgid (Aramaic) – worship Dan 2:46] any god, except their own God.

We do worship Jesus, he is our king, but Jesus also said to the Church in...

Revelation 3:9 ...behold, I will make them to come and worship [G4352 – proskyneō - worship] before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

This is the same Geek word "G4352 – proskyneō - worship" in Revelation 3:9, that is used also for worshiping Jesus, and God, and idols.

John 4:21, 23, 24; 1 Corinthians 14:25; Revelation 7:11 [G4352 – proskyneō – worship] worship the Father, and God.

Hebrews 1:6 [G4352 – proskyneō – worship] worship Jesus.

Act 7:43 [G4352 – proskyneō – worship] worship idols.

Though, no one is to be worshiped as the God, but the God, for then that would be stepping over the line. Obviously, there must be a proper distinction.

razzelflabben · Aug 11, 2015

7xlightray said:
I am fully aware of the smorgasbord of teaching of the trinity; for there are some Trinitarians that teach Jesus was 100% God, and 100% man, and other Trinitarians that teach if a Trinitarians says, Jesus is 100% God, and 100% man, he is a heretic, for they say Jesus is neither 100% of anything, but is fully God, and fully man. That some teach Jesus left heaven, and others he did not, and others he did, and didn't, and others change depending on how the argument is progressing.

That God Jesus had two natures, yet, being one person.

I'll see if this time, I can make this as easy as I can to be understood.

Each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed James 1:14.

No, one is adding to God by saying He can both not change, cannot be tempted to sin, and can change, tempted to sin. That is again, contradictory. Whether you comprehend you are saying this, or not, you are saying God can have two natures, both possible and not possible to be tempted! Contradictory!

now, scripture tells us that His flesh nature could sin, it even tells us in Heb. that He had to learn obedience....all the while proclaiming HIm to be God.

As to contradictory, the only contradictions I am interested in are those from scripture as non trinity leaves the Phil. 2 passage in contradictions. any other "contradiction" is only in the mind of man for the purpose of deception and leading away from truth.

For God to have two natures, He would have to be two persons.

not at all...I am not even God and I have two natures, the old man and the new man.

For the God person could not be tempted to sin, therefore there would have to be another person that could be tempted to sin, and therefore not God. You are saying there is this magical mystery that no one can understand, or only some elect Trinitarians can understand, that is not written in scripture, that this one God person can become fully man, and yet, not be fully man, but God, able to come to temptation, to sin, and not able to come to temptation, to sin, that God can become lower then He is, and go against what God says of Himself in scripture. You are saying this Jesus God person (who is God nature) is God, and not God (not God's nature) at the same time, because you are saying, because the person God Jesus became flesh (not God nature), this Jesus God person (who is God nature, for there is only one person Jesus) was tempted to sin.

no, that is how you are twisting what I am saying so that you can justify your own opinions and ideas. But you have to know this by now, after all the corrections you have been given.

Like I said, Jesus is one person, if Jesus had two nature, he would have to be two persons. Why? For only the person can be tempted to sin. In man's nature, he can be tempted to sin, and it is the “Us, the You, the person” that is being tempted, each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed James 1:14. Again, which person Jesus is being drawn away by his own desires and tempted, to sin?

since no one seems t listen to what I am saying, here is an article by someone else that tells you the same thing about the two natures http://biblebelievers.com/Todd5.html ...now, if mere man can have two natures, why would it be impossible for God who clothed Himself in the flesh, to not also have two natures while in the flesh?

The person Jesus had to overcome his own desire for food, when Satan tempted him in the wilderness. Jesus the person had to overcome his own desire of not having to endure the cross, but to obey the will of God the Father. Which person Jesus was this?

these are the flesh nature as I already told you repeatedly, but there is also a God nature, which we also talked about.

We are not just simply talking about God Jesus putting on flesh, but God Jesus being tempted to sin. God Jesus can't stop being God with God's nature, for that is who he would be. So, when God Jesus put on flesh, Who was being tempted? Was there two Jesus person's, one with his God nature, for this one can't change, and another with man's nature, which could change? Obviously not!

We are not God, we over come our earthly worldly nature, by dying to ourselvesp/quote] and what does scripture say that Jesus did when HE came to earth as a man? He denied Himself, iows, He died to self...In fact, the PHil 2 passage tells us this among others.

God is God, God does not die to himself to overcome His nature, to become more like mans nature; or God does not overcome His nature to become more like mans nature by dying to himself. God does not, and cannot die to himself, He cannot stop being Who He is.

Click to expand...

Phil 2:17; II Tim. 4:6; I John 3:16...we also see in the temptations of Jesus that He had authority that we don't have. An authority reserved for deity.

Man changes, not God. We operate in our nature, but overcome the temptation to sin with the aid of God. This can't be applied to God, for God does not change. God would have to operate in both natures at the same time, that being, One could not be tempted to sin, and the other could be tempted to sin, again that would be contradictory. With Man's nature, man can be tempted to sin, but overcomes temptation with help from God. God on the other hand is not tempted to sin, cannot be tempted to sin, for He is truth, no darkness in Him at all. So, how can God take this off, His nature, put on man's nature and be tempted to sin? That's simply not understanding Who God is, and what God says of Himself.

Click to expand...

and yet scripture and I showed you these already but you refused to address them because they didn't fit your agenda, was powered while on earth, by the exact same HS that we are to be yielding to.

What you would have to be saying is, Jesus was tempted to sin, because he died to his God nature, in other words, stopped being God, took off His nature, so that He could be tempted to sin in man's nature.

Click to expand...

Phil. 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

Like I said, two natures, just like we as believers have. It's funny how you try to claim that what I am saying isn't scriptural and yet I show you scripture time and time again that you refuse to address. Why is that?

If your saying Jesus is God, then God Jesus could not cease to be Who He is, so that he could have a mans nature, nor is he two persons.

If the person God put on human nature (which is silly, for God's nature does not change), the person God could not be tempted with sin, and Jesus was tempted with sin. So, this person would have to be a person that was not God, for it is the person that is drawn away and enticed James 1:14.

It does not matter if God was able to put on another nature, for He would still be the person God, not unless He stopped being that person God. Which He can't! This would not only go against reason, but what God says about Himself.

Click to expand...

even though this isn't an accurate representation of what is being said, it still shows you wrong according to scripture.

If, your not able to understand this, I'm not sure I could make this any plainer

That other post of yours #733 I will not respond to, for you built another straw man, and on top of that, I was responding to “LoveofTruth.”

Click to expand...

it's also funny how any time you all can't answer a question more accusations come out rather than simply reasoning together....

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