Student Was So Offended by How Her School Pushed ‘Christian Beliefs’ That She’s Suing Them

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muichimotsu

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Ya got me! :rolleyes:


No. There's is no connection between teaching Christianity in school and dictating our government.

But our schools belong to the public and the public in The US has no official religion. So to establish a sense of equality for the entire public, Christians, atheists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, everyone... we've decided to keep religion out of public schools just like we do with our government institutions like our courts, postal service, military, public office, public programs.. etc. It's just easier that way.
Keeping religion out entirely might be excessive: but keeping religion out in a normative sense should be enforced. Encouraging ignorance about religion is the opposite of educational principles. Teaching children about religion should be part of school curriculum, but it should also be properly regulated so they focus on a descriptive model, not prescriptive.
 
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muichimotsu

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Seems like a principle of neutrality escapes many Christian posters in these forums at large: teaching evolution is not encouraging atheism because one doesn't have to be atheist to believe in evolutionary theory, since it doesn't make a direct statement about the existence or nonexistence of God to begin with.

Similarly, I feel some secularists might be taking the separation a bit too far in trying to sever religion from schools entirely. In a curriculum meant to expand the knowledge base of the future generation, I don't see why we shouldn't teach them about the major religious groups and what they believe as well as some historical and cultural background.

Islam in particular is something that has a lot of misinformation thrown around, so having a strong standard of authenticity and support in terms of what constitutes general facts about Islam would go a long way to helping to understand that there is variety in any religion and some of it is bad, but not all of it is bad by association.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Evolution is theories not biological facts.

The tortured grammar is the least wrong thing about this sentence.

There are millions upon millions of proven scientific facts for kids to learn in school.

Proven scientific facts you say?

He didn't need evolution theories to get him there.

The adjective would be "evolutionary" and since there is only one theory the noun would be singular "theory".

I never was subjected to any evolution Theories until college biology.

Subjected to? That's a little dramatic don't you think?

Adults can weed out what is fact from what is theory.

Your post did not engender confidence in your assertion.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Well, it's my theory that God created the Earth. My theory is the "highest form of support in science", as you say. So accept it, or you are not being scientific!

And here we have another who doesn't know what a scientific theory is or, apparently, how science works.

Boy, comments like these sure are making monkeys out of the "evolutionists". :monkey:
 
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The Cadet

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That's the thing. I have read the Constitution, as opposed to the bastardized version of it the American left touts.

You misspelled "the supreme court and all other courts in this country since 1940". Look, I don't get what's so hard about this.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

Then you throw in general incorporation, which has been a well-established legal principle for the bill of rights since the early 1900s, and I'm left wondering what, exactly, about this easily-understood passage we "liberals" (and the courts for the last 70+ years) have "bastardized".

They seem to think the First Amendment says, "The people shall have not practice their religion if it offends anyone else for any reason",

No, we think the first amendment says that Congress (and by way of incorporation state and local governments) shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion (among other things). You know, exactly what it says.

If you don't like our "crazy beliefs", then maybe you should petition Congress to pass a law regarding it. Oh, that's right! The Constitution says they can't! Bummer! Or should I say "Obummer"?

...You just realize that the very last post you responded to explicitly said "you can have your crazy beliefs", right? Nobody is trying to take your Christianity away. Nobody. All anyone else wants is for there to be certain legal safeguards in place to ensure that no religion can sneak into the classroom. And somehow, I get the feeling you guys agree:

545819_115655711905193_1324446356_n.jpg

Yeah, that's awful, and they should not in any way be forced to do that. The whole field trip is pretty damn questionable as a whole. So... Why does this only apply to Muslims, and not to Christians?

Tell that to the Department of Education the next time they promote an issue like trans-gender rights

Gender dysphoria is a well-established and universally recognized pyschological condition. Gender identity disorder, non-binary genders, and various other such issues need to be addressed, and there's nothing faith-based about any of this.

or abortion as health care

I guarantee that Sistrin will not provide a citation for the time that the Department of Education of the USA or of any state promoted abortion as a part of health care.

or have school children sing songs of praise for Obama

Bet this has nothing to do with the board of education of any school district either, but rather one nutso teacher who almost everyone will agree stepped over the line.

or present graphic and detailed sex education to sixth grade students.

Wait, I thought you didn't like abortion. Make up your mind!

That is not what the First Amendment says. The First Amendment was crafted to keep government out of religion, not religion out of government.

Wait, what? What part of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" is so hard to understand? It's a basic sentence, no extra clauses, no difficult grammar, just straight-up English. This isn't hard.

You mean the way they "promote" evolution?

Evolution is a well-established scientific fact and the cornerstone of all of modern biology.

I really don't think that a doctor who is operating on me is going to be any better because he was taught in school that humans evolved from monkeys.

You'd be surprised. Granted, surgery gains very little from evolution. But virology? Hoo boy. Virology lives and dies by evolution and genetics (another field that makes no sense without evolution).

First, public schools are paid for by the people, not your holy government. Public schools are not government institutions

How does this make any sense? "The DMV is paid for by the people, not your holy government. The DMV is not a government institution." "The IRS is paid for by the people, not your holy government. The IRS is not a government institution." "Congress is paid for by the people, not your holy government. Congress is not a government institution." It's nonsense. Public schools are government institutions. Yeah, we the people pay for it... Just like every other part of the government. And just like every other part of the government, we have a say in what goes on therein. However, given that it is a part of the government - that it is a government institution - and that the establishment clause and almost a century of jurisprudence clearly forbids the establishment of any particular religion, it therefore follows that you cannot establish any particular religion therein!

Children are already sitting through mandatory instruction on Islam, and I don't see the outrage from the American left.

Maybe if we heard about it, you'd see more outrage. Of course, you provide no source, no citation, and no backing for any of your claims, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe the lack of outrage is because your sources aren't quite being honest with you?
 
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GoldenBoy89

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First, public schools are paid for by the people, not your holy government. Public schools are not government institutions, unless you are willing to admit the government has the unchallenged right and authority to dictate all subject matter and all manner in which that material is taught with complete disdain and disregard to the will of the people. Which liberals and liberal administrations just naturally assume, of course.
The government belongs to us the public. Not we, to it. We elect our representatives. We have no one but ourselves to blame if we don't like what they're doing. Our politicians are Americans, who grew up in America, went to American schools and were taught by American teachers and graduated from American universities and they represent American opinions... Maybe the problem is with Americans, in general. Maybe governing just ain't our thing. War is... We're good at killing people. Governing people?.. Not so much.

Children are already sitting through mandatory instruction on Islam, and I don't see the outrage from the American left.
Because the American left isn't paranoid about the evil, scary Muslims coming to take over our country. Because it isn't going to happen. God forbid that our kids be exposed to a little bit of world culture and history..
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Evolution is theories not biological facts. There are millions upon millions of proven scientific facts for kids to learn in school.
@GoldenBoy89
My son is in a professional medical field. He took pre-med and was accepted into medical school. He didn't need evolution theories to get him there. He was never taught evolution in the public school system and neither was I. I never was subjected to any evolution Theories until college biology. That is the way I believe it should be. Adults can weed out what is fact from what is theory.
No scientific facts have ever been "proven". Proofs are for mathematicians and drunks.

As for doctors and evolution. Doctors themselves learn to treat human disease and ailments and of course, focus much more on whatever area of specialty they are going into. And that is a very honorable profession to follow. Big ups to your son for that! But the research that is being done on the diseases and ailments that doctors treat is grounded in evolution. It is human biology and evolution is the cornerstone of biology. It's not coincidence that medical science has advanced so much more after the 19th century than it ever did before. Due to many factors as well, no doubt, but it certainly doesn't hurt to understand what we're made of and how our bodies work and how they got to be the way they are.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Keeping religion out entirely might be excessive: but keeping religion out in a normative sense should be enforced. Encouraging ignorance about religion is the opposite of educational principles. Teaching children about religion should be part of school curriculum, but it should also be properly regulated so they focus on a descriptive model, not prescriptive.
Completely agree! There is nothing wrong with learning about the various religions and cultures around the world. In fact, that is precisely what this country needs. Well, at large part of it, at least. I agree it should be regulated and part of the curriculum and not the opinions of some nutty teacher that has a captive audience.
 
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Hank77

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The tortured grammar is the least wrong thing about this sentence.



Proven scientific facts you say?



The adjective would be "evolutionary" and since there is only one theory the noun would be singular "theory".



Subjected to? That's a little dramatic don't you think?



Your post did not engender confidence in your assertion.
Thanks for pointing out my grammatical error.
There have been different theories over time, so yeah, theories.
 
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Red Fox

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Completely agree! There is nothing wrong with learning about the various religions and cultures around the world. In fact, that is precisely what this country needs. Well, at large part of it, at least. I agree it should be regulated and part of the curriculum and not the opinions of some nutty teacher that has a captive audience.

I agree that there is nothing wrong with learning about various religions and cultures around the world. I'm just not sure that any kind of religion should be discussed and taught in public schools, whether in curriculum or otherwise. I don't think that any kind of religion should be impressed on children or young adults in public schools.
 
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TLK Valentine

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If you don't like our "crazy beliefs", then maybe you should petition Congress to pass a law regarding it. Oh, that's right! The Constitution says they can't! Bummer! Or should I say "Obummer"?

Better still, put me in charge of the classroom that your child is enrolled in.

40 minutes a day, 5 days a week; I'll undo all that Christian indoctrination in one school year; no sweat.

(Not that I agree with him myself, but I just might make your kid an Obama supporter too, just for laughs.)
 
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USincognito

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Thanks for pointing out my grammatical error.
There have been different theories over time, so yeah, theories.

No, there is The Theory of Evolution by descent with modification. That theory incorporated genetics after Mendel's work was rediscovered in the early 1900s and Watson and Chick figured out the double helix.
 
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muichimotsu

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I agree that there is nothing wrong with learning about various religions and cultures around the world. I'm just not sure that any kind of religion should be discussed and taught in public schools, whether in curriculum or otherwise. I don't think that any kind of religion should be impressed on children or young adults in public schools.

The difference is that merely telling kids about religion is not impressing it on them, especially not in a primary definition, which entails affecting the mind or emotions. If all you're doing is explaining the general beliefs and qualifying that this isn't a comprehensive education, it's a better start than throwing them into the world and not even giving them a grasp on critical thinking or research and then expect them to not react like jibbering monkeys with "teh Muslims".
 
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I've actually had this happen to me back in 1989 when Muhammad Ali came to my school. They let him proselytize Islam- which was a good majority of his spiel. I even got his autograph- on an Islamic tract.

ETA: I was upset by it. However, everyone else, including my parents, told me to get over it. In fact, when I've told this story here at CF in the past, some folks have been all, 'Oh, wow, do you still have the autograph? That's worth something!' Nope. I threw it away the day I got it. I would bet good money that a lot of people, including some in this very thread, would have been right there with my parents and others telling me to get over it, IRL. I don't think some would apply their offense equally across the board. Just another one of those uncomfortable truths though. Carry on. Nothing to see here.
Were you force to attend?Did you asked not to attend this? If so, it was wrong. I think people should sue, so this nonsense stops.
 
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brewmama

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You misspelled "the supreme court and all other courts in this country since 1940". Look, I don't get what's so hard about this.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

Then you throw in general incorporation, which has been a well-established legal principle for the bill of rights since the early 1900s, and I'm left wondering what, exactly, about this easily-understood passage we "liberals" (and the courts for the last 70+ years) have "bastardized".

Easy. The states most definitely had established churches, as it was Congress that was forbidden to do it.
 
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muichimotsu

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Easy. The states most definitely had established churches, as it was Congress that was forbidden to do it.
So you'd have no problem with a state enforcing a state religion? You realize how hypocritical that sounds?
 
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