Why don't protestants bless Mary?

Understood.
Here's a Bible Study site Bible Dictionary definition of Necromancy, with relevant verses for further study.

Open Heart said:

Lavandar Frog:

Be careful of the Webster definition of religious things. It tends to use the word influence too liberally. I noticed this as well, which would include PRAYER:
Full Definition of MAGIC
1
a : the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces
b : magic rites or incantations
2
a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source
b : something that seems to cast a spell

Usually the rule is this:
If you can MAKE the event happen, it's magic
If you are just requesting it, it's prayer

That's one of the reasons why praying to the saints is not necromancy, because you are ultimately only requesting something of God via the prayers of the saint.

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Hi,
I have always been told that with Saints and Mary, that all things derived from them, is really only derived from God.
If that is so, then who here can claim, that God would not allow someone with Him, to not bring a petition to Him, for us?
And, do you not know that any spirit of a Saint, is no spirit of the dead which is forbidden, but a spirit of life, as God, Biblically defines life as being alive with Him, after death on earth, but death is being alive without Him, after death on earth.
Those who were alive at the time of Noah, I believe would all be spirits of the dead, but Abraham, nor Elijah, nor Moses would be a Spirit of the dead, otherwise, Jesus would be in Great error talking to Moses and Elijah, at the Transfiguration.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

Lavendar Frog said:

Understood.
Here's a Bible Study site Bible Dictionary definition of Necromancy, with relevant verses for further study.

Click to expand...

Hi,
Yes, if I pray to a Saint, it is a request for that Saint to do something, but if I remember this correctly, no Saint can do anything that God has not approved of, and in some cases God Himself does the act, requested.
Even Baptists call me prophetic, even those in the mental health profession, tell me that I am what they call a Medical Mystic, but with me it is information only. It is not classic miracles, rather if God sends me in, usually Jesus does, it is for solving a personal problem, for someone.
I get to ask for almost nothing, and I cannot fortell the future, nor do any of those things that are called magic, nor working with the spirits of the dead. I don't even meditate, as I normally refuse to, erroneously or not, as it seems too close to working with spirits of the dead, and it scares me.
Bottom line in my understanding is the article on prayer and magic is correct.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

Open Heart said:

This is not a valid dictionary, but is biased with an agenda.

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How about this definition of Necromancy?
The art of divining the future through alleged communication with the dead. It was mentioned in the Bible and found in every ancient nation. It was forbidden by Mosaic law in any form, whether as alchemy, magic, or witchcraft. It is also forbidden by the Church. One reason is that the practice lends itself to dependence on the evil spirits who can pretend to foretell the future, but only to deceive and mislead the practitioners. In modern times it is called spiritism or spiritualism. (Etym. Greek nekros, corpse + manteia, divination; Latin necromantia.

Open Heart said:

No it's not. Maybe by you, but certainly not by Catholics. The communion of all saints, or body of Christ, includes ALL Chrisitans.

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Hi,
Really? It looks like you are right. This I never knew before.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

Open Heart said:

Scripture says that all nations will call Mary blessed. Why is it that so many Protestants refuse to do so? Are they so afraid of appearing Catholic that they are willing to disrespect the Mother of our Lord? The only time they ever even talk about Mary when they either drag her out for Christmas or, in extreme cases, when they are disparaging her to say she was merely an incubator and no one special. What is with that?

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A question before i comment, am I allowed to freely quote scripture here and say my views or will this offend some?

Open Heart said:

No it's not. Maybe by you, but certainly not by Catholics. The communion of all saints, or body of Christ, includes ALL Chrisitans.

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And yet not all Christians pray to saints the way Catholics do.

Open Heart said:

Scripture says that all nations will call Mary blessed. Why is it that so many Protestants refuse to do so? Are they so afraid of appearing Catholic that they are willing to disrespect the Mother of our Lord? The only time they ever even talk about Mary when they either drag her out for Christmas or, in extreme cases, when they are disparaging her to say she was merely an incubator and no one special. What is with that?

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Christians do consider Mary blessed and a saint as all believers. But the Mary of the catholic Church and the Mary of Christians who believe the Holy scriptures is a different Mary. The Mary of the bible said her spirit rejoiced in God her SAVIOUR, the Mary of the Bible needed a saviour. The Mary of the bible , like all humans on the earth except Jesus Christ had sin, The Mary of Catholics does not have sin. The Mary of the bible was not the Mediatrix , Jesus alone is the one mediator between God and man.

Luke 1:47
"And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour."

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

And when the catholics deny this, here is the catechism

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512" (Catholic Catechism)

This is not true. Jesus alone is the saviour and he alone is
"eternal life". He alone is the advocate, and the ONE mediator bewteen God and man.

But Catholics see Mary differently

"971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."515" (Catholic Catechism)

Firstly, I've shown nothing less than Christian charity in this thread.
Secondly, I believe you are mistaken when you say it is very unusual that Catholics don't pray to Saints.
They do. As we have discussed to this point.
Further, yes, this is the Theology section. Particularly the section dedicated to Mary and talk of Saints.
You entered here and asked Protestants why they don't bless Mary.
We're telling you why this is and it gets into a discussion then as to the differences between the Catholic tradition and that of the Protestant.

Every Saint prayed to by the Catholic is a dead person. Their souls are presumed to be in Heaven and they are presumed to be able to act as intermediaries on behalf of the one who prays to them.
Yes, prays to them. As the Catholic sourced website on the last page and in the post I shared there linking Catholic Online and their list of Saint prayers.
The prayer to St. Anthony, Consoler of the Afflicted, begins with a salutation to the saint. And concludes with the faithful believer asking St.Anthony to mention that pressing need they're afflicted with to Jesus.
That is a prayer to the Saint.

If your point here is to ask Protestants why they don't bless Mary, which is an odd turn of phrase to think mortals could bless Mary, that's all well and good.

If we get into a discourse about those particulars and you in turn deny what is very obvious even to the Protestant reading from Catholic source websites, we're not going to get very far. Because rather than the Protestant appearing to not know Catholic doctrine, you appear to be the Catholic that does not know Catholic practice.

When someone prays to Mary, to a Saint, that's exactly what they're doing. They are praying to that Saint asking them to intercede on their behalf.

Not pray with them, but asking that dead person canonized,officially formally declared a Saint by the Catholic church, and believed due to that canonization to hold the keys to the kingdom of Heaven, and praying for intercession by the Saint of one's choosing. Even one's own patron Saint.
Praying for intercession is praying to the Saint to ask them to intercede.

This dialog isn't going to get very far if you deny what Catholics due as pertains to venerating Saints, and Mary in particular since this thread was created to talk about her. It is not unusual for the Catholic to pray to Saints. It's why they're there.
"Holy Mary mother of God blessed art thou among women. And blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Pray for ...."
That prayer that I've heard many times when I've attended a Roman Catholic church is unmistakably a prayer to Mary.
Who, contrary to what you say, is seen as the coredemptrix in Heaven. And that means exactly what it says by definition. Co-redeemer.

That prayer to Mary, led by a priest, followed by every Catholic in the church where I attended mass as a guest of friends.

You can ask why Protestants don't bless Mary. But when you deny what Catholics do in their own church we're not going to get very far. And that isn't uncharitable.

That's simply telling you your aversion to what even Catholic sites state about prayers going out to a Saint on your part isn't helpful in an intellectually honest exchange with Protestants you invited to the discussion.

Praying to the dead mortal and asking them to act on one's behalf is forbidden in Protestant scripture. Someone who is in Heaven in the presence of God in that bliss that is far removed from this world, wouldn't hear us. As scripture reminds us, flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. Why would the consciousness of a spirit in Heavenly bliss connect with the flesh and blood consciousness occupying this realm of earth?
Living a saintly life and then occupied for eternity with the problems of people all over the world asking intercession with God on their behalf.
An unusual definition of paradise, I think.

And for the Protestant that may enter in I reiterate this article that I linked pages back. Shared in full here under invocation of Fair Use and for religious education purposes. In the event it wasn't accessed before, I think it is relevant in the Theology forum for Protestants to not be confused by what is actually being argued here from the Catholic perspective and starting with the OP. It is partly why there is a difference between the two practices.
And that's about all I have to say about this. I tire of going in a circle and butting my head against a wall of denial, yours, when Catholic websites affirm what you claim isn't in practice for the Catholic of the RCC.

God Bless.


Question: "What does the Bible say about praying to / speaking to / talking to the dead?"

Answer: Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.” The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly, God has declared that such things are not to be done.

Consider the characteristics of God. God is omnipresent—everywhere at once—and is capable of hearing every prayer in the world (Psalm 139:7-12). A human being, on the other hand, does not possess this attribute. Also, God is the only one with the power to answer prayer. In this regard, God is omnipotent—all powerful (Revelation 19:6). Certainly this is an attribute a human being—dead or alive—does not possess. Finally, God is omniscient—He knows everything (Psalm 147:4-5). Even before we pray, God knows our genuine needs and knows them better than we do. Not only does He know our needs, but He answers our prayers according to His perfect will.

So, in order for a dead person to receive prayers, the dead individual has to hear the prayer, possess the power to answer it, and know how to answer it in a way that is best for the individual praying. Only God hears and answers prayer because of His perfect essence and because of what some theologians call His “immanence.” Immanence is the quality of God that causes Him to be directly involved with the affairs of mankind (1 Timothy 6:14-15); this includes answering prayer.

Even after a person dies, God is still involved with that person and his destination. Hebrews 9:27 says so: “…Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.” If a person dies in Christ, he goes to heaven to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:1-9, especially verse 8); if a person dies in his sin, he goes to hell, and eventually everyone in hell will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15).

A person suffering in agony will not be able to hear or answer a prayer, nor will a person who is living in heavenly bliss with God. If we pray to someone and he is in eternal agony, should we expect him to be able to hear and answer our prayers? Likewise, would a person in heaven be concerned for temporal problems on earth? God has provided His Son, Jesus Christ, to be the mediator between man and God (1 Timothy 2:5). With Jesus Christ as our mediator, we can go through Jesus to God. Why would we want to go through a sinful dead individual, especially when doing so risks the wrath of God?

Open Heart said:

Yes she did. And God saved her in the womb by preserving her from sin.

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No thats not what happened, all are born in sin, "In sin did my mother conceive me is for all men except Jesus. All inherit the sin nature from Adam. She also gave two turtle doves sacrifice for sin.

the bible says that all have sinned

Yet the Cathechism says,

"966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin,"

and this doctrine was not defined until around 1854 apparently.

this is not true.

The very idea of needing a SAVIOUR, is from sin. So you and the Cathechism confound yourself again. if she was preserved from the stain of original sin, then she would not have needed a saviour.

and the word "preserved", is not the same as Saved.

and scripture rebukes your thinking

"1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die"

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

and yes this would include Mary. It doesnt say "For all have sinned (except Mary)

"10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."(Romans 3:10-12)

It doesnt say "except Mary". Only Jesus was "without sin as scripture teaches. Hebrews 4;15

"12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (Romans 5;12)

And Mary actually died. The bible says if we die it is because of sin. Death however couldnt hold Jesus he had no sin.

and

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

So Mary died because of sin. Death passed upon all men, for all have sinned.

and she did actually die as it says in the cathechism "966 ...when the course of her earthly life was finished"

when life is finished you are "dead"



"12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 6:23

Open Heart said:

Actually this sacrifice was what we call the redemption of the first born. It was not a sin offering.

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Mary went up to the temple to offer the appointed sacrifices for her purification

"22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons." (Luke 2:22-24)

According to levitcus 12:8 these two turtle doves were offered for the poor who could not offer a bigger offering.

"The proper offering was a lamb for a burnt offering, and a pigeon or dove for a sin offering; but for the poor an alternative was allowed"(Pulpit Commentary)

This offering for her "PURIFICATION", was for SIN . this should end the argument about this and show clearly that Mary had sin and the catholic church is wrong about here and the Mary they present to the world is not the Mary of the bible. But will it??...

I think you should consider all I say to you here. Sometimes when truth is very clear and people just try hard to hold onto their beliefs and traditions and whole system, that can be spirtually dangerous. Let all things that can be shaken be shaken, so that all that is seen is Christ.

Hi,

Consider this

http://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/saints.php

Also consider, that Jesus did things that were by law, but not really needed. So, Mary, who follows God might be doing the same thing.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

katerinah1947 said:

Hi,

Consider this

http://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/saints.php

Also consider, that Jesus did things that were by law, but not really needed. So, Mary, who follows God might be doing the same thing.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

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Hello I read some of it and looked through it lots to rebuke there it would take a week to expose every error there.

But as far as Mary offering a sacrifice for her sin and for her purifuication. that is clear and it was for HER purification. Showing that she needed it. We have to take care not to twist scripture and try to make it fit. To say words like "Mary..might be doing the same things". we cannot base our view on "might be" to fit it into a possible answer to escape the very clear rebuke of the catholic position.. And we can't just make up things to say that Mary was this and that.

Jesus is the one mediator between God and man. The text says this ONE mediator is the man Christ Jesus. So there is no other mediator is the clear meaning of the text. To call someone a mediator and to try and change that around to praying to someone is not the same thing as that article you linked to tries to do..

Heres one quote from that article you posted

"I think that Christians in heaven pray through Christ much better than you and me"

well, the question them would be. if you believe this then all believers can be prayed to as mary is not just Mary. It would be wrong to hear a believer praying to his cousin who died and asking to do things etc.

But I havent been discussing praying to Mary or others here. Right now i am talking about mary having sin and needing a saviour. and dying.

also in that link you posted the person says.

"We think Christians in heaven are a heck of a lot more aware of who Christ is than we are...but they know a heck of a lot more about this spiritual game than me"

The word "heck" is a slang for hell, and this is strange talk. There is nothing of hell that the believers are sure of. This i a contradiction. Believers who are in Christ are n glory not heck they are sure of truth and life and light and all good things, they are never "the heck of alot" anything.