No need for man to teach us 1 John 2:27

Open Heart · Jul 6, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
we see so many examples of death of a sacrifice for sin and the risen Lord in type also

You have no prophecies that the messiah will rise from the dead. All these "types" of death and rising that you are talking about have to be TAUGHT.

LoveofTruth · Jul 6, 2015

Open Heart said:
Where is the substitutionary atonement in the OT?

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief. When thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.11 He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied. By His knowledge shall My righteous Servant justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities.12 Therefore will I divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He hath poured out His soul unto death. And He was numbered with the transgressors; and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." Isaiah 53:10-12

"
5 And he shall take from the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering and one ram for a burnt offering.

6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself and for his house.

7 And he shall take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats — one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat.

9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord’S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him and to let him go as a scapegoat into the wilderness.

11 “And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself.

12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the Lord, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it inside the veil.

13 And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not.

14 And he shall take of the blood of the bullock and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.

15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people, and bring his blood within the veil, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat and before the mercy seat.

16 And he shall make an atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel and because of their transgressions in all their sins; and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness." Leviticus 16

LoveofTruth · Jul 6, 2015

Strong in Him said:
I know, that's what I said.

Except that that's how Jesus set it up from the beginning and how he wants it.
Jesus had a teaching ministry. He taught the crowds and his 12 disciples. He taught his disciples things that he didn't teach the crowds, and explained his parables to them, and then commissioned them to go and teach others. At no time did Jesus say, "carry on being fishermen, or with your other work and the Holy Spirit will gradually reveal things to your minds and to other people." He stayed on earth for 40 days after his resurrection, teaching his disciples. And one of the gifts that his Holy Spirit gives, is that of teaching.

you have to read 1 John 2:27 and harmonize this with your understanding in the word. Or rather let the word of Christ dwell in you and build you up as you ask the Lord to show you what this means.

also Jesus said to the apostles in Matthew 10

"
But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak, for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaketh in you

LoveofTruth · Jul 6, 2015

Open Heart said:
You have no prophecies that the messiah will rise from the dead. All these "types" of death and rising that you are talking about have to be TAUGHT.

all things are taught by the Spirit which the holy Ghost teacheth, and the anointing teaches us all things. Not just some things, ALL things. Not mans teaching or natural wisdom or positional authority. It is the word of God that works in those that believe.

In faith men can know even in the OT we read

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and by it he, being dead, yet speaketh." Hebrews 11:4

and

"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure." Hebrews 11:17

there is more

LoveofTruth · Jul 6, 2015

Open Heart said:
You have no prophecies that the messiah will rise from the dead. All these "types" of death and rising that you are talking about have to be TAUGHT.

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;
neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." Psalms 16:8

"24 whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up," Acts 2:24-32

"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." - Matt 12:40

In Isaiah 53:10, we get a hint at a resurrection, because after his soul is made "an offering for sin" he will then "prolong his days."

Open Heart · Jul 6, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief. When thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.11 He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied. By His knowledge shall My righteous Servant justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities.12 Therefore will I divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He hath poured out His soul unto death. And He was numbered with the transgressors; and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." Isaiah 53:10-12

"
5 And he shall take from the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering and one ram for a burnt offering.

6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself and for his house.

7 And he shall take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats — one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat.

9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord’S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him and to let him go as a scapegoat into the wilderness.

11 “And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself.

12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the Lord, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it inside the veil.

13 And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not.

14 And he shall take of the blood of the bullock and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.

15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people, and bring his blood within the veil, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat and before the mercy seat.

16 And he shall make an atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel and because of their transgressions in all their sins; and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness." Leviticus 16

None of that is substitutionary atonement. Nice try.

Open Heart · Jul 6, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
all things are taught by the Spirit which the holy Ghost teacheth, and the anointing teaches us all things. Not just some things, ALL things. Not mans teaching or natural wisdom or positional authority. It is the word of God that works in those that believe.

Sorry, but the typology of the OT has to be taught by MEN.

Open Heart · Jul 6, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
In Isaiah 53:10, we get a hint at a resurrection, because after his soul is made "an offering for sin" he will then "prolong his days."

No you don't.

Open Heart · Jul 6, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." - Matt 12:40

We understand the typology because Jesus teaches it to us.

LoveofTruth · Jul 7, 2015

Open Heart said:
Sorry, but the typology of the OT has to be taught by MEN.

how did the one speaking of these things learn it?

"if ye have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus

"which the Holy Ghost teacheth."

"Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you." (2 Corinthians 13:3)

Winepress777 · Jul 7, 2015

fhansen said:
But discernment is always critical. Not everyone who claims to speak in the name of the Lord-or sincerely thinks they're doing so-truly are doing so. God has designated teachers for His Church.

This is who my designated teacher is;

Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

But there sure has been no shortage of men running up to me wanting to be my teacher lol

LoveofTruth · Jul 7, 2015

Winepress777 said:
This is who my designated teacher is;

Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

But there sure has been no shortage of men running up to me wanting to be my teacher lol

Yes and when a man speaks the truth in Christ the truth is manifest in our conscience by the anointing and we hear the word. We dont hear the word of men but the word of God working in us. Yes the body edifies itself in love, but all under Christ headship as he works effectually in every part. Even the gift of a teacher has to be as the Lord reveals all things to him. Paul would say "since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me" 2 Cor

and Jesus said to the apostles in Matthew 10 that is was no them that spoke but the Spirit of the father speaking in them.

LoveofTruth · Jul 7, 2015

Winepress777 said:
This is who my designated teacher is;

Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

But there sure has been no shortage of men running up to me wanting to be my teacher lol

and notice how the Spirit teaches us "ALL THINGS" even if he uses another believer to do it, the Spirit still is the real teacher of all things.

Winepress777 · Jul 7, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
and notice how the Spirit teaches us "ALL THINGS" even if he uses another believer to do it, the Spirit still is the real teacher of all things.

I remember when I was younger, how this couldn't happen for me I couldn't hear the teaching of the Spirit of Christ, because I was wasting all my time listening to what men were demanding me to believe.

LoveofTruth · Jul 7, 2015

Winepress777 said:
I remember when I was younger, how this couldn't happen for me I couldn't hear the teaching of the Spirit of Christ, because I was wasting all my time listening to what men were demanding me to believe.

Yes I agree, sometimes I would hear the word in some of these men but when we met in homes for many years and different meetings all over, I saw the body edifying itself under Christ headship, it was wonderful. people getting revelations and being excited by what they just heard in the Spirit and when they would share it others would be quickened by the word in them. Like when the two were walking on the road and Jesus was hidden from them and he spoke to them, they said after did not our hearts burn within us as he opened unto us the scriptures.

This inner working is how God manifest his truth to us. There is no Christianity without this and sadly I see so man tickled by professional pulpiteers. And men who do not wait for ministry or for the rest of the body under Christ headship. They press their authority in their person and position, just like the gentile Authority Jesus said we are not to be under. They have dominion over others in an exalted position. And they do this under the guise of being servants. Yet if you speak a word in due season, and interupt their program they smite you on the face ( so to speak). Not all are like this but they are out there.

Winepress777 · Jul 7, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
Yes I agree, sometimes I would hear the word in some of these men but when we met in homes for many years and different meetings all over, I saw the body edifying itself under Christ headship, it was wonderful. people getting revelations and being excited by what they just heard in the Spirit and when they would share it others would be quickened by the word in them. Like when the two were walking on the road and Jesus was hidden from them and he spoke to them, they said after did not our hearts burn within us as he opened unto us the scriptures.

This inner working is how God manifest his truth to us. There is no Christianity without this and sadly I see so man tickled by professional pulpiteers. And men who do not wait for ministry or for the rest of the body under Christ headship. They press their authority in their person and position, just like the gentile Authority Jesus said we are not to be under. They have dominion over others in an exalted position. And they do this under the guise of being servants. Yet if you speak a word in due season, and interupt their program they smite you on the face ( so to speak). Not all are like this but they are out there.

Yes. My ministry now is going to the different organizations and churches, searching those kind of men out. It is easy to discern the spirit of a man who wants to know God, as opposed to those who just join the club as cookie cutter Sunday/Saturday clones of the "reverend" or the "father". or the "rabbi". True seekers of the Father are actually quite rare to come across, especially in the more established "church organizations". There's not much fertile soil in any of them sadly. But here and there, one of a city, two of a family...

Strong in Him · Jul 7, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
you have to read 1 John 2:27 and harmonize this with your understanding in the word. Or rather let the word of Christ dwell in you and build you up as you ask the Lord to show you what this means.

That still doesn't alter the fact that Jesus had a teaching ministry, taught his disciples about God and appointed them also to teach.

If God doesn't want people to teach others about him, but let his Holy Spirit do it directly, why do we have the Bible; the written word of God to us? I'm guessing that God didn't reveal 1 John 2:27 to you supernaturally, you read it in your Bible. The Bible contains 66 books and many events, teachings, prophecies etc about God - written so that people might learn and know the truth. The NT was written in Greek, later translated into Latin and then into English, so that people might be able to read, understand and learn God's word. Human beings still translate it into other languages today so that people in other countries can read God's word in their own language. The authors of the Bible wanted future generations to know God and what he said and taught them, so they wrote it down.
Evangelists and preachers teach when they explain the word of God to non Christians or to any of us who want to understand it. The Holy Spirit inspires them and helps them understand the word that He inspired men to write. The Holy Spirit also applies the word to our lives.

LoveofTruth said:
also Jesus said to the apostles in Matthew 10

"
But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak, for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaketh in you

Sorry but this is an example of taking a verse out of context, not understanding what it means but trying to apply it universally.
Jesus was sending the disciples out on a mission - to go into towns and preach the Good News. He told them that if someone rejected their message they were to shake the dust off from their feet and move on. He said that they should be careful because one day they would be arrested for preaching the Gospel, flogged and taken before Kings, leaders and Gentiles. When that happened and they WERE arrested for the Gospel, they needn't worry about how to defend themselves or what they would say, because the Holy Spirit would give them the words. I believe this is what happened. Look at Peter's response and speech to the Sanhedrin in Acts 4; verse 8 says, Then Peter, full of the Holy Spirit, said ...... " His words, Stephen's speech in Acts 7, Paul's defence in Acts 21-24 - all inspired by the Holy Spirit rather than the apostles working out beforehand what they would say.

Jesus said that his disciples would receive help and inspiration from the Holy Spirit when they were arrested and be given the words to defend themselves or to preach the Gospel. He didn't say that the Holy Spirit would explain the Gospel to everyone directly so there was no need for human teachers or evangelists.

Winepress777 · Jul 7, 2015

Strong in Him said:
That still doesn't alter the fact that Jesus had a teaching ministry, taught his disciples about God and appointed them also to teach.

If God doesn't want people to teach others about him, but let his Holy Spirit do it directly, why do we have the Bible; the written word of God to us? I'm guessing that God didn't reveal 1 John 2:27 to you supernaturally, you read it in your Bible. The Bible contains 66 books and many events, teachings, prophecies etc about God - written so that people might learn and know the truth. The NT was written in Greek, later translated into Latin and then into English, so that people might be able to read, understand and learn God's word. Human beings still translate it into other languages today so that people in other countries can read God's word in their own language. The authors of the Bible wanted future generations to know God and what he said and taught them, so they wrote it down.
Evangelists and preachers teach when they explain the word of God to non Christians or to any of us who want to understand it. The Holy Spirit inspires them and helps them understand the word that He inspired men to write. The Holy Spirit also applies the word to our lives.

Sorry but this is an example of taking a verse out of context, not understanding what it means but trying to apply it universally.
Jesus was sending the disciples out on a mission - to go into towns and preach the Good News. He told them that if someone rejected their message they were to shake the dust off from their feet and move on. He said that they should be careful because one day they would be arrested for preaching the Gospel, flogged and taken before Kings, leaders and Gentiles. When that happened and they WERE arrested for the Gospel, they needn't worry about how to defend themselves or what they would say, because the Holy Spirit would give them the words. I believe this is what happened. Look at Peter's response and speech to the Sanhedrin in Acts 4; verse 8 says, Then Peter, full of the Holy Spirit, said ...... " His words, Stephen's speech in Acts 7, Paul's defence in Acts 21-24 - all inspired by the Holy Spirit rather than the apostles working out beforehand what they would say.

Jesus said that his disciples would receive help and inspiration from the Holy Spirit when they were arrested and be given the words to defend themselves or to preach the Gospel. He didn't say that the Holy Spirit would explain the Gospel to everyone directly so there was no need for human teachers or evangelists.

WE are messengers with a preaching ministry. After that, The Holy Spirit is the Resurrected Lord Jesus Christ Come into those led to Him by this preaching Ministry. Then Jesus Himself teaches/reveals directly by His Holy Presence in the new believer. Put simply. If that is what you are saying, you are correct

Strong in Him · Jul 7, 2015

Winepress777 said:
WE are messengers with a preaching ministry. After that, The Holy Spirit is the Resurrected Lord Jesus Christ Come into those led to Him by this preaching Ministry.

I know

.

Winepress777 said:
Then Jesus Himself teaches/reveals directly by His Holy Presence in the new believer. Put simply. If that is what you are saying, you are correct

God is our ultimate teacher. The Holy Spirit reveals Jesus to us, illuminates Scripture for us and applies it to our hearts and lives. When I am preaching I tell people to listen to God rather than to me. In other words if I am preaching on a passage and highlight a certain theme, or meaning, from it but the person listening picks up on another word or verse, which encourages them and points them to, and speaks to them about, God, they should go with that and not feel bad that they haven't followed what I am trying to share with them. I also hope that people will disagree with something I say, then they will go and search the Scriptures for themselves.
Likewise with new believers; no matter how stumbling the words of the evangelist, the Holy Spirit can work through them, and the Scriptures quoted, to reveal Jesus to the unbeliever.

But it seems to me that the OP is saying that John says that we do not need people to teach us anything at all; that ALL can be revealed by God. I am saying that I do not believe that this is so. There are many very gifted Bible teachers who have helped me to understand the Scriptures in a new way. They have a God given ministry and are using the gift that the Spirit gave them.
Sadly there may be people who abuse this position and gift and take the view "I am the leader/pastor/expert, you need to listen to me and no one else." This is unhealthy, wrong and is how cults start. But just because a few leaders are on power trips or have to big themselves up to maintain their self esteem, that is no reason to say that we don't need human teachers to tell us about God.

single eye · Jul 7, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
How do you understand this section

1 John 2:26,27

"26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

The faith was once delivered to the saints by Jesus and The Spirit of Truth s scripture. This scripture taught of the gift of grace not the law of sin and death and atonement. Combining the two always produces confusion. The kingdom of God is at hand.

No need for man to teach us 1 John 2:27

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