No need for man to teach us 1 John 2:27

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There is a lot of confusion about that verse by many Christians (saved/born again people, Rom 10:9).

Jesus gave gifts unto men.

Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; KJV

If The Lord did not intend for us to learn from man.

Why did He give the gifts that are to teach us the word.

The Holy Spirit that dwells in saved/born again people (Rom 10:9) is the teacher that reveals the word to us so we can understand what the word says.

The Pastor, teacher, etc. is given to "accelerate" our learning as the Holy Spirit revels what is taught to our spirit.
 
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John in his first epistle consistently divides humanity into two camps, each with its corresponding opposing characteristics. These characteristics are doctrinal (e.g., belief that Jesus came in the flesh and is the Son of God--or the opposing view) and behavioral (e.g., loving the brethren, keeping oneself from the lusts of the world, not sinning, walking in the light--or the opposing behaviors).

While there are definite obligations the believing-in-Jesus side has (e.g., to abide in Him), God is also at work in that side as well: such persons are born of God, are impregnated with His Seed preventing them from continuing in sin, are protected by God from the evil one, for God "has given [them] understanding, so that [they] may know Him who is true" (5:20).

The author in other words for example uses different metaphors to describe those on the believing-in-Jesus side. They "have been anointed by the Holy One, and ... all have knowledge" (2:20) and know the truth (v. 21) in opposition to the anti-christs who went out from among us and are liars (vv. 18-19, 22). This anointing is contextually close to and probably identical to the anointing from God that teaches believers the doctrinal and behavioral truth in 2:27.

Granted the apostle does write his audience "that they might not sin" (2:1) and that they may know they have eternal life (5:13) and for other purposes, yet again he also writes of God's work in causing His people to know and to follow Him. Jesus told Peter that His Father had revealed to Peter that He (Jesus) is the Christ, the Son of God even though Peter had heard and witnessed Jesus-in-the-flesh (Mt. 16)--where Judas Iscariot, for example, heard and witnessed the same in unbelief and ignorance. Or again on the opposition side, "The reason why you do not hear [My words] is that you are not of God [(or) are not part of My flock]" (John 8:47, 10:26--the Gospel, not the epistle). Only those with ears to hear hear God's words. Only those with the anointing from God are taught of God, for example via John's first epistle though they are not in need of human teachers who are in themselves impotent to grant birth and life from God. The natural man "cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God" (1 Cor. 2:14), but the gospel "God has revealed to us through the Spirit" (v. 10) via apostolic preaching and epistle writing. God gives apostles, prophets, and teachers to His church (e.g., Eph. 4), and uses them to (attempt to) teach the tares and the wheat, though in effect only the wheat are able to hear the teaching ... for the seed of the word falls on different soils (using that metaphor/parable too), only some of which bear fruit for the harvest.
 
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LoveofTruth

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There is a lot of confusion about that verse by many Christians (saved/born again people, Rom 10:9).

Jesus gave gifts unto men.

Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; KJV

If The Lord did not intend for us to learn from man.

Why did He give the gifts that are to teach us the word.

The Holy Spirit that dwells in saved/born again people (Rom 10:9) is the teacher that reveals the word to us so we can understand what the word says.

The Pastor, teacher, etc. is given to "accelerate" our learning as the Holy Spirit revels what is taught to our spirit.

Yes, but we still have no need that any MAN should teach us, we do not learn spiritual things from man, the natural man does not know them. All things are in the spirit and this is the anointing that teaches all things.

I can partly agree with you that all the gifts accelerate our learning. But I may word ift different. I would say the gifts are the various ways the Lord effectually works in the body to edify itself in love. It is Christ in them that reveals and gives gifts. We see the result of Gods work in them and to us also.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Paul was a man.

He spent his life after Damascus teaching the word.

Likewise with Peter, James, John, etc.


the word of God works in those that believe paul lived in the word. he also told other elders that the word of Gods grac is able to build them up. The one who we hear are the ones who speak in the word and who have sound speech that cannot be condemned. Babes are unskillful in the word of righteousness But mature brothers are more so and have exercised their senses to discern good and evil. But the word of God is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. it is the word of God that is quick and powerful and teaches us, as we let that word abide in us.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Paul was a man.

He spent his life after Damascus teaching the word.

Likewise with Peter, James, John, etc.
One time Jesus said when he sent the apostles out, that is was not so much them that spoke but the Spirit of the father speaking in them. So would we say that if men speak that way it is MANS teaching?
 
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LoveofTruth

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God gives apostles, prophets, and teachers to His church (e.g., Eph. 4), and uses them to (attempt to) teach

Hello,

I wouldnt say they "attempt to teach" if men abide in Christ and the anointing, then Christ as the head works effectually in the measure of every part to make increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. This is Christ work in all. And Peter said that as we have all received the gift to minister the same as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. It is the grace of God that is ministered, not MANS teaching. Paul would say things like this, "For I say, through the grace given unto me,.." Romans 12:3) Notice that he spoke but through the grace. this is not mans teaching. And this is what we are to hear in others. The truth is manifest in our hearts as we hear it and so if a man is in the truth he will be able to show forth that word. In some measure. babes are not as skillful as elders. But they can all grow in this.

And Paul said to the whole church in Colossia.
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus," Colossians 3:16,17)

and to do all IN THE NAME of the LORD JESUS. means to do everything in the character power, life and leading of the spirit. So no mans teaching there or mans authority
 
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JLB777

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John wrote to them to teach them.

John was teaching them and reminding them that they have God's Spirit to teach them, and do not need to heed the deceivers that pose as teachers, who would lead them astray concerning Christ.

John was teaching them the truth concerning the promise of the New Covenant.

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." Jeremiah 31:31-34


Example of this from the scriptures:

13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:13-17

Did Peter still need to be taught? Yes

Concerning Who Christ was though, flesh and blood did not teach this to him.


Likewise, the context of what John wrote to them, was about the anointing teaching them... about Jesus as the Christ.

If we look at the context in which John wrote to them, we can see that they were being persuaded or deceived or seduced into believing that Jesus was not the Christ.


22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that He has promised us--eternal life.
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.
27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:22-27


Of course the Spirit abides in us and teaches us, however, until we reach a place of maturity where we can feed ourselves correctly, and are anchored in the truth and are not blown about by every wind of doctrine, the Lord has given us the five-fold Ministry, which includes teachers, to bring us to maturity, that is to say, full stature Sonship.

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ--
16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16

Like all truth, there is a balance.

It is good that you grasp one thing and also not let go of the other; for the one who fears God comes forth with both of them. Ecclesiastes 7:18



JLB


 
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The whole point of the epistles were to teach. The apostles ordained by the laying on of hands to bestow teaching authority upon those they trusted. So you have one verse which seems to say we don't need to be taught, and then you have the entire rest of the NT that creates a network of teachers.
 
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LoveofTruth

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John wrote to them to teach them.

John was teaching them and reminding them that they have God's Spirit to teach them, and do not need to heed the deceivers that pose as teachers, who would lead them astray concerning Christ.

John was teaching them the truth concerning the promise of the New Covenant.

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." Jeremiah 31:31-34


Example of this from the scriptures:

13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:13-17

Did Peter still need to be taught? Yes

Concerning Who Christ was though, flesh and blood did not teach this to him.


Likewise, the context of what John wrote to them, was about the anointing teaching them... about Jesus as the Christ.

If we look at the context in which John wrote to them, we can see that they were being persuaded or deceived or seduced into believing that Jesus was not the Christ.


22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that He has promised us--eternal life.
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.
27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:22-27

Of course the Spirit abides in us and teaches us, however, until we reach a place of maturity where we can feed ourselves correctly, and are anchored in the truth and are not blown about by every wind of doctrine, the Lord has given us the five-fold Ministry, which includes teachers, to bring us to maturity, that is to say, full stature Sonship.

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,

15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ--
16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16

Like all truth, there is a balance.

It is good that you grasp one thing and also not let go of the other; for the one who fears God comes forth with both of them. Ecclesiastes 7:18



JLB
Hello and God bless,

You have more weight in your words because you let the word of Christ dwell in you and you speak the word. There is only a few things to discuss here I agree with many things you say.

and it is true that Peters confession was not by flesh and blood that revealed that to him. No man can know the things of God either but the Spirit of God and to who he reveals them 1 Cor 2.


it is only a few things I would want to clarify, you said

"Of course the Spirit abides in us and teaches us, however, until we reach a place of maturity where we can feed ourselves correctly, and are anchored in the truth and are not blown about by every wind of doctrine, the Lord has given us the five-fold Ministry, which includes teachers, to bring us to maturity, that is to say, full stature Sonship."

Yes other gifts on the body can feed the flock, and edify mightily for perfecting the saints. This making them perfect unto every good work is also by the scriptures of truth that are for that purpose, and those who are able to use them aright will have sound doctrine and words that cannot be condemned. But one thing that is very interesting is that you quoted Ephesians 4:and more and it says

"11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;"

Notice here that he did not give just :pASTORS" over the flock to be exalted over all and control everything. The body cannot be fully matured unless all aspects of Gods gifts are in place. The body will never grow properly if they hinder the use of , for example, apostles and prophets and evangelist and teachers. This is part of the problem that many of these gifts are rejected or ignored or put aside in place of a "pastor" gift. This is wrong and damaging to the perfecting of the saints and this will not help us come to the unity of the faith unto the perfect man.

Also because God gives these gifts to help the body and perfect them etc. This by no means says that all the body cannot minister to one another when they gather under Christ headship. The thing is that the body is often quenched by a one man pastor ministry or a few others and silenced and Christ is not allowed to participate with them full in the body. All can wait on the Lord and have gifts and ministries even if they are not in the five fold ministry as scripture clearly teaches. here are just a small sample of such scriptures. There are many many more

"As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." 1 Peter 4;10,11

and yes this would be in a gathering to "one another" as peter says and this would have been in homes of believers as the apostolic pattern was as led by Christ to do so.

"How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted...37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant." 1 Cor 14:26-31,-34, 37,38)

Again this was when they came together and all was allow to happen in Gods order, "let all things be done:. Even if there was some problems God did not stop all body ministry through Christ to the body

"15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.:" (Ephesians 4:15,16

This is how Christ builds his church, from within believers as we also (in Him) edify (or build up as a house builder) one another. If this is hindered in any way ( and it is very hindered in many gatherings under the one man ministry that quenches the Spirit) then we must speak up , correct it or withdraw from every brother that walketh disorderly. There is a "set order " in the church and how we ought to behave. This order is to allow God freely to move and effectually work in us.

"
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation" Romans 12:3-8

This is also for the gatherings and outside of the gatherings. But words like prophesy and "one body", members one of another", show this gathering aspect. Prophecy is for the church also as 1 Cor 14 says. Also ministry can be to one another as well.

"And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another." (Romans 15;14)

the one another part is the key as well.

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." ( Colossians 3:16

this verse is key. the word of God dwells in us and we are then able to teach and admonish one another. this is for the gathering as well. Paul also warns the believers to Beware lest any man spoil them Col 2:8 The word "spoil" means to "rob them of their goods". This is what the one man pastor ministry does often by quenching the spirit by not allowing body ministry as they gather at any time they are led. They hinder this and spoil them by having their man made traditions and philosophies that make the word of God of no effect and their programs and mans order.

"Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do." ( 1 Thessalonians 5;11)

here again the body is told to comfort one another and "edify" one another even as they did. These letters were written many years after Christ and this shows the normative order that the churches had then.

"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." (Hebrews 10:25)

How often have we heard ministers quote the first part of this verse, about not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together. But we seldom hear the next part to "exhort ONE ANOTHER" this is done as we assemble. It does not say let the one man pastor alone exhort everyone. or you need to get the approval of the man called "the pastor" over all first before you exhort.

"7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12 ...14 For the body is not one member, but many.15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ..." (1 Corinthians 12:7-12, 14-23)

again, a manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man, to profit withal. Not just to the pastor gift. And how often do some look at the body as though they are not needed, they feel satisfied having an eloquent pastor speaker. This is not right . Even those members which we may think are more feeble and not mature in Christ, are very needed. i have been in home meetings with the church in the house and seen baby Christ and have a word or a revelation or testimony and they are glad to share it and they have edified many by it.

"Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy...3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.4...but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying."1 Corinthians 14:1,3,4,)

Again all can prophesy and seek it to edify the church. Not just one man ministry called the pastor over all.


Ok well, God bless. And with your word and understanding you may be able to oversee gatherings one day if you do not already. In the biblcal order that is if you are free to minister in Christ. But there would also need to be 1 Timothy qualifications first as well and a good example in your walk..

God bless JLB
 
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LoveofTruth

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The whole point of the epistles were to teach. The apostles ordained by the laying on of hands to bestow teaching authority upon those they trusted. So you have one verse which seems to say we don't need to be taught, and then you have the entire rest of the NT that creates a network of teachers.

You misunderstand we dont need MEN to teach, or from mens persons or positional roles over us. We dont need natural understanding etc. Jesus spoke as one having authority, not as the scribes and pharisees. Yet the religious leaders had a positional authority in the land jesus was not recognized in that to them. But he spoke ( the word) with authority. This is different than mans authority and order and teaching.

Paul told the Colossians to let the word of Christ dwell in them richly , teaching and admonishing one another. So if the anointing in the word teaches us all things, then who is the real teacher. If you have been taught by Jesus as the truth is in Jesus.

"But ye have not so learned Christ;21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus" (Ephesians 4:20,21)
so who teaches us all things, even if other men in Christ teach ? who teaches them and who anoints them and who give them the gifts ?

"But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ." (Galatians 1:12. )

Notice who taught it.

and i only need one verse to dismantle the giant super structure that has overshadows the church for a long time. Just as David use one stone to drop the giant. By Gods grace many other gatherings will meet in homes and wait on him and enjoy the wonderful body ministry and fellowship, meal and worhship that I have seen over the years.

and if this one verse doesnt make sense to you, then your theology needs to be readjusted.

God bless, I mean not hurt to any here only the good for all
 
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Look Up

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Hello,

I wouldnt say they "attempt to teach" if men abide in Christ and the anointing, then Christ as the head works effectually in the measure of every part to make increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. This is Christ work in all. And Peter said that as we have all received the gift to minister the same as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. It is the grace of God that is ministered, not MANS teaching. Paul would say things like this, "For I say, through the grace given unto me,.." Romans 12:3) Notice that he spoke but through the grace. this is not mans teaching. And this is what we are to hear in others. The truth is manifest in our hearts as we hear it and so if a man is in the truth he will be able to show forth that word. In some measure. babes are not as skillful as elders. But they can all grow in this.

And Paul said to the whole church in Colossia.
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus," Colossians 3:16,17)

and to do all IN THE NAME of the LORD JESUS. means to do everything in the character power, life and leading of the spirit. So no mans teaching there or mans authority

LoveofTruth: I don't think I have any disagreements with your above post, save that as a response to your quotation of mine it misreads and unfairly misquotes my words in their context, making your post, however good and relevant to the thread, irrelevant to the quotation from my post.
 
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Job8

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There is a lot of confusion about that verse by many Christians (saved/born again people, Rom 10:9).
Jesus gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; KJV
If The Lord did not intend for us to learn from man.
Why did He give the gifts that are to teach us the word.
The Holy Spirit that dwells in saved/born again people (Rom 10:9) is the teacher that reveals the word to us so we can understand what the word says.
The Pastor, teacher, etc. is given to "accelerate" our learning as the Holy Spirit revels what is taught to our spirit.
This pretty much sums up how we are to reconcile the Scriptures. While the Holy Spirit Himself is our Divine Teacher, he uses gifted men to clarify and explain the Scriptures. And the elders (pastors/elders/bishops/shepherds) are called to *feed* the flock spiritual food -- the milk and meat of God's Word (1 Pet 5:2). Also note that the apostles and prophets are already with us in Scripture (OT + NT). But today evangelists, pastors, and teachers are the spiritual gifts given to edify the saints. Therefore those who claim to be apostles and prophets today are deceivers (2 Pet 2:1-22).

The real issue is that too many Christians are NOT studying the Word diligently, neither are too many pastors today labouring in the Word and doctrine. Indeed, some are even using *canned* (pre-packaged) sermons which have been prepared by someone else. It takes a lot of hard work to study the Scriptures (2 Tim 2:15).
 
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ViaCrucis

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The whole point of the epistles were to teach. The apostles ordained by the laying on of hands to bestow teaching authority upon those they trusted. So you have one verse which seems to say we don't need to be taught, and then you have the entire rest of the NT that creates a network of teachers.

When historically Protestants speak of "Scripture interpreting Scripture" we refer to taking the most clear and numerous passages of Scripture in order to shine light on the less clear passages. Which would mean that since Scripture consistently speaks of the need of teachers in the Church and those whose calling and vocation is to teach such as what the apostles and the pastors they ordained did (and continue to do) is readily clear; in which case to take the isolated statement in 1 John here to argue against the necessity of ministerial teaching within the Church is a complete misuse and abuse of Holy Scripture. It is to use Scripture to undermine the faith rather than to encourage and build up the faith.

This present thread is a very clear example of why we'd say such a methodology is important, the purpose of this thread is to undermine the Christian faith by confusing the faithful and drawing them away from faith "once and for all delivered" and toward a novel and sectarian falsehood. A game regularly played by false teachers throughout Christian history. Quoting Scripture is not sufficient to speak biblical truth, we do well to remember that even the devil was adept at quoting Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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fhansen

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Yes, but we still have no need that any MAN should teach us, we do not learn spiritual things from man, the natural man does not know them. All things are in the spirit and this is the anointing that teaches all things.

I can partly agree with you that all the gifts accelerate our learning. But I may word ift different. I would say the gifts are the various ways the Lord effectually works in the body to edify itself in love. It is Christ in them that reveals and gives gifts. We see the result of Gods work in them and to us also.
The Ethiopian Eunuch was taught by a man, who nonetheless was teaching the things of God. And in any case, all who believe in Jesus are led and guided by Him. No eclusivity there. Sorry.
 
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LoveofTruth

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This pretty much sums up how we are to reconcile the Scriptures. While the Holy Spirit Himself is our Divine Teacher, he uses gifted men to clarify and explain the Scriptures. And the elders (pastors/elders/bishops/shepherds) are called to *feed* the flock spiritual food -- the milk and meat of God's Word (1 Pet 5:2). Also note that the apostles and prophets are already with us in Scripture (OT + NT). But today evangelists, pastors, and teachers are the spiritual gifts given to edify the saints. Therefore those who claim to be apostles and prophets today are deceivers (2 Pet 2:1-22).

The real issue is that too many Christians are NOT studying the Word diligently, neither are too many pastors today labouring in the Word and doctrine. Indeed, some are even using *canned* (pre-packaged) sermons which have been prepared by someone else. It takes a lot of hard work to study the Scriptures (2 Tim 2:15).

You are wrong sir,

Even when Paul would speak he used words like Christ speaking in me and which the holy Ghost teacheth. Jesus said to the apostle, it is not ye that speak but the Spirit of your Father speaking in you (Matthew 10. And Paul would say, "I say, by the grace of God". Yes Christians speak, but it is the Lord that reveals all things and speaks in us and so the teaching comes from the Lord. And what John said is still true. You have no need that any MAN should teach you, the same anointing teaches you all things. I know many today have trouble with this verse, but the trouble is not with what i say but with what John said. We don't need men in their personal positional authority over us to be controlling the body as if we need them to teach us. if they are in Christ Jesus teaches them and so they speak forth the teaching of the anointing in the word and that is manifest to every mans conscience in the sight of God 2 Cor 4. This opening the understanding to understand the truth is by the Lord and his teaching in us that witnesses to his truth spoken. Yes men use their lips to speak. But as Jesus said it is not ye that speak but the Spirit. The Spirit gave utterance. Paul would pray that a door of utterance was given to him. So where is mans teaching in there?

Also you try to use 2 Peter to say there are no more prophets and apostles etc. Ephesians 4 says there are "gifts" of apostles and prophets today until we all come in the unity of the faith unto the perfect man. That has not happened yet. And we read of Prophets (plural) in Acts 13 and there are prophets in Corinthians 14 and other places after Christ rose. .Both Acts and Corinthians were written many years after Christ death some 40 or 50 years after and they still had apostles and prophets then. Barnabas was an apostle Acts 14 and so were Silvanus and Timoteous 1 Thess 1:1, 2:6. You need to study to show thyself approved unto God

The reference in 2 Peter 2 is about false prophets in the OT. It does not speak of prophets in the NT. He was specifically talking there of false teachers. The "office of a prophet" if we can understand that is different in the OT than the gift of prophet today. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John." Matthew 11:13. Here we see that the OT prophets had a specific ministry until John. But that does not mean there are no more after John. We read of them all over the NT and many years after Christ death. Just as the original 12 apostles and the one added in Acts had to see Jesus whole ministry from John till his death and resurrection, so they could be eyewitnesses of the truth Acts 1:21- 26,. The apostles AFTER Christ rose again were given for a different ministry.

there is a distinction from the OT prophets and apostles and the NT ones, the apostles and prophets today are "GIFTS" Ephesians 4. And these are needed still for the perfecting of the saints.

and i suppose if men follow your teaching that there are no more prophets, when the two prophets speak in revelation and are killed, would you say there are not true prophets?
 
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LoveofTruth

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When historically Protestants speak of "Scripture interpreting Scripture" we refer to taking the most clear and numerous passages of Scripture in order to shine light on the less clear passages. Which would mean that since Scripture consistently speaks of the need of teachers in the Church and those whose calling and vocation is to teach such as what the apostles and the pastors they ordained did (and continue to do) is readily clear; in which case to take the isolated statement in 1 John here to argue against the necessity of ministerial teaching within the Church is a complete misuse and abuse of Holy Scripture. It is to use Scripture to undermine the faith rather than to encourage and build up the faith.

This present thread is a very clear example of why we'd say such a methodology is important, the purpose of this thread is to undermine the Christian faith by confusing the faithful and drawing them away from faith "once and for all delivered" and toward a novel and sectarian falsehood. A game regularly played by false teachers throughout Christian history. Quoting Scripture is not sufficient to speak biblical truth, we do well to remember that even the devil was adept at quoting Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran


1 John 2:26,27 does not undermine the faith. And I am not saying we don't need all the "GIFTS" of God in the church today and these men who are elders can teach the word of God as they are led and wait on the Lord. But what they speak is as the Holy Ghost teacheth 1 Cor 2. and if they have been taught by Jesus as scripture refers. If the anointing teaches all things then we are to listen for the word and manifestation of the truth n our hearts as the anointing confirms this according to scripture. When a man speaks sound words in faith and in Christ these words may not even be quotes from scripture but they are rooted in scripture in the word of God.

I am not using Johns words to say we dont need the teaching of the Lord and all spiritual gifts in the body. And John obviously wrote the word of God to them and expected them to hear it. But some come today and do not speak in the truth and according to the word of God and they are not in the anointing but speak what they know naturally as brute beast. These men buy their way into bible school or set themselves over all as Lords and exalted men in high places and control the body with their mans authority as the gentile rulers Jesus said we were not to be like. yet they act as if they are servants, while all the time they are Lords over all. We do not need man to teach us. Did Paul say that what he spoke was mans teaching or from man? No he said when you received the word from us ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth the word of God that effectually worketh in those that believe. The word of God is quick and powerful and is a discerner and a fire and a hammer also. If Jesus sent his apostles out two by two in Matthew 10 and told them not to premeditate what they should say when they are brought before men and that it is not them that speak, but the Spirit of the father speaking in them. Then were is mans teaching there? The Spirit gives utterance. Paul wanted to have a door of utterance given to him to speak as he ought to speak.

But how many today just prepare notes from an old message they read or do all their ministry in their own natural mind and understanding. Then they use a wrong title and positional authority over men to press their power. This is not right and we see it everywhere

Even a baby Christan in the anointing with the word of God has more power and truth that a Pope or King without the anointing or word of God. Even though the popes and kings would say "You need me and to be under my authority", the babe in Christ has no need that any man teach them.

Jesus spoke as one having authority, not as the scribes and pharisees. Yet they were in the positional political authority over the people But Jesus had authority in the word he spoke even if they did not recognize his authority and questioned him on it. Believers today have such authority as well when they speak the word of God and live in it. But man men press their positional authority over others and dominate over them and use this power as their justification for men to need them and be under them. If a man does not speak according to the word in the anointing they have no authority in spiritual matters or in the church. can you imagine a man who says I am your authority i am the pastor, listen to me and he was telling you to go against the word of God . Should men listen to him or submit or obey this? But if the elders speak the word of God and their example is for all to see in Christ then as they follow Christ we take note and know them and bear witness of the truth. True ministers direct us to God not themselves. true ministers seek not their own but the good of the body. They are as servants and a servant has no authority in the world but in Christ and his word we have the authrotiy of the word.
Paul said to Titus , these things speak and rebuke with all authority. The things he spoke were the words of truth from God through Paul. That is the authority.

Paul would say things like this,

"Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you." 2 Corinthians 13:3

Consider this verse. Do we see MANS teaching there and mans authority over us?
 
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LoveofTruth

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when the Jews rejected hearing from God directly through the prophets they said "give us a king" they wanted to be like all the other pagan nations who had a king over them. Jesus told us not to be like that and they were like that then. God said they stopped listening to him when they want this. This shows again that they needed no man to be over them as a king but God was speaking through the prophets to them. This example shows similar to what many today set up among them. They may not say "give us a king to rule over us, but they say give us a pastor to rule over us. The same principle. They put a pastor gift as a title of rule or authority over all and they are quenched by the one man ministry. Saul also in the OT had the Levites killed and the type we see in this is that the one man king over all kills the priesthood of all believers which all Christians are part of. God warned what the king would do to them

"...now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord.7 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them." 1 Samuel 8:5-7
 
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LoveofTruth

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The Ethiopian Eunuch was taught by a man, who nonetheless was teaching the things of God. And in any case, all who believe in Jesus are led and guided by Him. No eclusivity there. Sorry.


John was not saying that the believers should not hear what he said. But John did not speak of himself, or his own words there. he was speaking the word of God to them and he knew that those who were of God would hear him, because it is the Spirit that bears witness in them.

we read interesting verses like this in scripture,

"Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you." (2 Corinthians 13:3)

here we see that Christ was speaking in him, and in those who heard. he was mighty in them also. So can we say that this is man speaking or teaching even though paul spoke words to them and wrote them
?

also we read

"But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." matthew 10:19,20

notice the words "it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit "

and

"13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." (1 Thessalonians 2;13)

not as the word of men. Sop in that case they had no need that any man should teach them. yet some will say but ah Paul taught them. Was it Pauls word or the word of God that they heard. And this word works in them that believe. This is the truth that is manifest in them as Paul spoke. 2 Cor 4.


"3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, " Romans 12:3)

notice that Paul said through grace and not of himself we read similar words all over

"3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

4 That I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak....6 Let your speech be always with grace,..."(Colossians 4:3-

also

"16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." Colossians 3:16)

Notice as the word of Christ dwells in them they can teach and admonish. So the free teacher is the Spirit who teaches us all things and Christ is the head of the body working effectually in every part to make increase and edify

"15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." (Ephesians 4:15,16)

Christ works in us effectually. this is not mans teaching or mans natural understanding or mans authority over us.

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." (1 Corinthians 2:12,13)

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them
utterance.

1 Corinthians 1:5
That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

2 Corinthians 8:7
Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance

Ephesians 6:19
And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Ephesians 4:21
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

 
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