Can you lose your salvation?

fatherjimparker said:

<< Can you lose your Salvation? Please provide scripture to prove your position. God bless you >>

Yes you can.

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No, you can't.

JN 10:22 At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23 it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24 The Jews therefore gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these bear witness of Me. 26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

From this passage and others some have concluded that it is impossible to lose one’s salvation. Is that an accurate understanding of what is taught by scripture?

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Yes, it is.

What Jesus specifically said was that no one would be able to take one of his sheep out of either His hand or the Father’s hand. That means that no outside agency could overpower the might of God with which He holds His sheep secure.

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Actually, He said NO ONE. iow, no person. Those believers who are also persons cannot remove from themselves their salvation.

That is not to say, however, that one of the sheep, by an act of his own free will, could end his relationship with God and return to his previous manner of living outside the will and fellowship of God.

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Yes, that IS to say that NO ONE, NO SHEEP, can remove salvation. Now, as to fellowship, that is an entirely different issue. Yes, of course any believer can be out of fellowship, just as the prodigal son was. But the prodigal was ALWAYS a son, before he left, when he left, and when he came back.

The idea that one can lose salvation treats salvation like some kind of object; a coin perhaps. Nonsense. Salvation involves regeneration, a new birth, and eternal life and justification. These are NEVER said to be removed or lost.

Furthermore, after defining God's gifts as justification in Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17 and eternal life in Rom 6:23, then Paul wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. That SEALS it.

Oh, and btw, speakiung of seals, God places the Holy Spirit into each believer, as a SEAL or PROMISE for the day of redemption. This isn't difficult to understand. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

We can see that this possibility described in both the Old and New Testaments.

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I'm not going to go through your proof texts here, but it is only an assumption that these verses speak of salvation. They don't. If they did, they would contradict Rom 11:29, John 10:28, and the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit.

“Once saved, always saved” is not a teaching from God’s word.

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It is clearly taught in Scripture.

It’s a false teaching that suggests to people that they need not exert any effort in the pursuit of holiness since they can do nothing to gain anything more and neither can they do anything to lose the salvation they have been given.

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Actually, the pursuit of holiness has nothing t do with our salvation. That is about spiritual growth, or sanctification. Yes, believers HAVE TO exert every effort to grow in grace.

The problem is that those who reject eternal security do not understand grace at all.

It is a license to remain immature and unfruitful. It is an invitation to remain tepid so that Christ will vomit you out of His mouth. (REV 3:16)

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The are serious consequences for believers who are disobedient and willful. It's called divine discipline. For those who want to mock that, or minimize it as a mere "spanking" for being naughty, I recommend reading Psa 32:3-4 and Psa 38:1-17 to catch a glimpse of how God deals with those who disobey Him.

Or, from the NT, where Paul turned over the incestuous man to Satan for the "destruction of the flesh". How does that sound to you?

Or 1 Cor 11:30, where Paul noted that many were "weak and sick, and a number slept (physical death)".

Matthew Twentyfour said:

It is actually pretty easy to prove your view wrong with Romans 2. The hard part is your stubborn head that refuses to accept His word in obedience.

Romans 2:5-9 CEV
5 But you are stubborn and refuse to turn to God. So you are making things even worse for yourselves on that day when he will show how angry he is and will judge the world with fairness. 6 God will reward each of us for what we have done.7 He will give eternal life to everyone who has patiently done what is good in the hope of receiving glory, honor, and life that lasts forever. 8 But he will show how angry and furious he can be with every selfish person who rejects the truth and wants to do evil. 9 All who are wicked will be punished with trouble and suffering. It doesn’t matter if they are Jews or Gentiles.​

2 Timothy 4:7 CEV I have fought well. I have finished the race, and I have been faithful.

Matthew 24:13 CEV But if you keep on being faithful right to the end, you will be saved.​

It doesn't matter if you accept the gift of salvation in the beginning. It's lost if you can't follow Christ and overcome in obedience and righteous till the end. The end is where it counts, not the beginning. The race to salvation is not a sprint where you win the same day you accepted the gift of salvation. It's a marathon and those who wins are those who endure till the end.

It's not about once saved always saved, it's about being saved at the end.

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It is your views that are so easily disproven. Yes, all believers will be saved at the end. But Jesus SAID that those who believe HAVE eternal life. That is present tense. Your view is refuted.

God's gifts of justification and eternal life are irrevocable. That is undeniable and refutes the notion that salvation can be lost.

I said this:
"Uh, where is the Scripture that was promised that supports your claims??"

Wordkeeper said:

Repentance is a change of mind, metanoia. It is not remorse, feeling sorry for hurting somebody. The apostles tell the jailer that to be saved he must switch loyalty, from the world and self to God. Belief in someone, in the patron client system is to be loyal to someone.

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This does not answer my question. And I know what metanoia means.

This is the scripture that shows the teaching. Disillusionment with everything, reaching for what the apostles have, and what the apostles have is loyalty, being found obedient to Christ:

Acts 16:29And he called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas, 30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. 33And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.


Free grace theology teaches that belief in Jesus for eternal life results in having eternal life. At least that is what I learnt from Wilkins . That is contradictory to scripture which says that if we do not obey Christ's command, to love each other, we remain in death:

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Obviously there is a lack of understanding of how the word "death" is used in Scripture. Let me list some of them:
physical death, which is separation of soul from body James 2:26
spiritual death, which is separation from God, which all humans are at birth
temporal death, which is being out of fellowship with the Lord, due to unconfessed sin 1 john 1:9, 1 Tim 5:6
sexual death, noted of Abraham before the Lord promised him a son
Second death, which is the lake of fire

Seems many believers are ignorant of the fact of temporal death, or being out of fellowship.

1 John 1:9 also speaks of BEING CLEANSED OF ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

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OK. That would be all the sins that one doesn't know about. They are cleansed when one confesses all his known sins.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

Not only did I refuted your lack of understanding in eternal life, I also exposed what you thought you knew. You never even realized it's a relationship with God till I told you.

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I've learned nothing from your posts, other than how much you do not understand what I post.

Romans 2

1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done. 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

Since there is a therefore, let's see what it is there for.

Romans 1

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 2 says to be mindful of God's kindness, and to not go the way of the unmerciful debtor. God has shown you kindness, let that be evident in the way you treat others. As far as "obedience" it relates to judging others with mercy, because God has shown you mercy.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

This is amazing. You based your entire knowledge of salvation on just one single verse which you have absolutely no idea what it means while shunning all the other many scriptures throughout the bible that warns of one's salvation being lost.

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Hardly. What is really amazing is your complete lack of grapsing any of my posts. Your claims about what I don't know only reveals what is lacking on your part. Seriously.

Do you even have the faintest clue what Romans 11:29 is about? You should, because it's not about spiritual gifts Paul spoke of in Romans 1:11. Those are gifts like prophecy, tongues, discernment, healing. Romans 5:15-17 is about Grace. Romans 6:23 is eternal life.

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Once again demonstrating a complete lack of understanding on your part. Rom 6:23 SAYS: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I am trying to help out here by bolding the FACT that eternal life is a gift of God. Which is what Paul was speaking about in 11:29, along with spiritual gifts from 1:11 and justification in 3:24 and 5:15,16,17.

None of those are the same as Romans 11:29.

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Paul described them ALL as gifts. How about a rag to wipe all that egg off your face?

Since you're so lost, here's a clue. It's about the Jewish people and the blessings promised to them through the covenant He established with Abraham and Jacob. That's what's irrevocable in Romans 11:29.

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Really? So where in Romans did Paul define blessings promised to Israel as a gift? I'll give a huge hint: he didn't. Your claim is totally off base.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

Marvin, those people in matthew 7 never worked on the relationship.

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There was NO relationship.

When you accept Christ's gift of salvation, your relationship begins there. but it's also your job to help build up that relationship by following Christ from that moment on. Christians that don't do that are merely professing Christians without a true relationship.

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You've just contradicted yourself. Look at the first sentence. The relationship BEGINS when we accept the gift of salvation. But then the claim that those who don't build up that relationship never had it. Huh? NO where in the Bible is man commanded or expected to build up the relationship in order to either get or stay saved. That is merely a figment of someone's imagination.

Therefore, they lost their salvation.

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More figments.

They had it once they accept Christ as their personal savior (Christ is the salvation), but lost it by not maintaining that relationship. They did not stay "In-Christ."

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I am very sorry to read that you think that one must maintain that relationship in order to maintain salvation. That is contrary to Scripture. Heb 12:2 says that Christ is the author and finisher of our salvation. But apparently your view places you right in the middle of it and claims that it isn't all about Jesus Christ and what He did, but what you must do.

A jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved. And Paul's answer flatly refutes your view: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

FreeGrace2 said:

I said this:"Uh, where is the Scripture that was promised that supports your claims??"This does not answer my question. And I know what metanoia means.Obviously there is a lack of understanding of how the word "death" is used in Scripture. Let me list some of themhysical death, which is separation of soul from body James 2:26spiritual death, which is separation from God, which all humans are at birthtemporal death, which is being out of fellowship with the Lord, due to unconfessed sin 1 john 1:9, 1 Tim 5:6sexual death, noted of Abraham before the Lord promised him a sonSecond death, which is the lake of fireSeems many believers are ignorant of the fact of temporal death, or being out of fellowship.OK. That would be all the sins that one doesn't know about. They are cleansed when one confesses all his known sins.

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Here are the variables:


1 The person who believes in Christ for eternal life passes from death into eternal life.

2 The person who does not love his brother remains in death.

3 The person who puts to death the deeds of the body will live.



It seems that 2 and 3 are Scriptural and 1 is not.


The real scriptural verse for 1 actually does not have the words "for eternal life". Rather it says:


John 5:24: "He who hears my word, and believes him that sent me, has eternal life, and comes not into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."


Wilkin interprets it like this, carefully avoiding the phrase, "hears my words":


http://www.faithalone.org/magazine/y1989/89jan3.html


Quote
How You Can Know for CertainYou're Going to Heaven
John 5:24
By Bob Wilkin

Jesus said that all believers have already passed from death to life. That is, before faith people are spiritually dead. They lack the life of God, eternal life. However, at the moment of faith, at that very moment, one who believes in Jesus Christ gains eternal life and ceases to be spiritually dead.Jesus also indicated in this verse that believers will not come into judgment. That is, once we believe our eternal destiny is sealed and there will be no future judgment which will determine where we go. [While all believers will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Matt. 16:27; 2 Cor. 5:10), that will not be to determine our eternal destiny.] Jesus made this same point earlier in John's Gospel in John 3:18 when He said that he who believes is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already. In other words, based on John 3:18 and 5:24 anyone on earth who accepts the authority of Scripture ought to be able to say with certainty where they will spend eternity based on whether or not they have come to trust in Christ alone as their only hope of heaven.



Now if we were to interpret "hears my word" to mean "obeys me", it then means exactly the same as options 2 and 3.


In John, the purpose for the incarnation, death, resurrection and glorification of The Word was to provide eternal life to humanity.


IOW, He came to provide something which old covenant believers never had.


I don't think that the death referred to is the loss of fellowship because of not loving your brother. Rather it is not having eternal life because of not obeying Christ, not putting to death the deeds of the body, not loving your brother.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

Marvin, those people in matthew 7 never worked on the relationship. When you accept Christ's gift of salvation, your relationship begins there. but it's also your job to help build up that relationship by following Christ from that moment on. Christians that don't do that are merely professing Christians without a true relationship.

Therefore, they lost their salvation. They had it once they accept Christ as their personal savior (Christ is the salvation), but lost it by not maintaining that relationship. They did not stay "In-Christ."

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The point still remains that the people in Matthew 7 were "never" known by Christ.

He did not know them in the past and now doesn't know them. He "never" knew them.

As a result of the plain words of our Lord it is not appropriate to use this passage to show loss of salvation since salvation never was possessed.

A simple acknowledgment by you of being wrong in so doing would go a long way toward your being accepted as an honest person who simply believes a little different than some others.

But since you will not do this very simple thing without twisting and squirming - I question your motives.

I don't believe that your agenda is simply discussing scripture. It is one based on ill feelings.

I do hope you won't die with this unrepented of sin on your resume.

We all want you to score high on the righteousness curve on the day you take your final exam for eternal salvation.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

You missed the main point of my message. It's not about Mother Theresa. It's about salvation.
The comments against Mother Theresa is one sin that can be easily forgiven by repentance.

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I made no comments "against" Mother Theresa.

I merely pointed out that, by her own admission, her system of works did not yield assurance of salvation even as she approached death.

He words portray a women in anguish of soul that her works related "relationship" would be inadequate in the end.

She never "rested" in the completed work of Christ on her behalf.

It was possible that she could be fully justified before God in this life and in the life to come through faith in His work - forsaking her own. She did not.

I hope that she will be in Heaven. I have my doubts.

I hope that those preaching a similar gospel of works here in the forum will be there as well. I have my doubts.

Of my salvation - I have no doubt at all.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

But here's the problem. You believe in once saved always saved. That kind of thinking escape repentance because people with this mentality don't think there's a need to turn from sin. They accept Christ's gift of salvation and any sin committed in the future is automatically taken care of without them having to do anything.

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You speak of what you willingly are ignorant of and will not be corrected.

I believe in the necessity of repentance and confession as much as you do.

The difference is that I do not believe that my eternal salvation rests in my abilities to completely overcome sin in this life.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

Do you see what's wrong with this picture? Once saved always saved creates a license to sin mentality. True salvation comes with repentance, a sincere effort to turn away from a life of flesh.

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I know from personal experience that believing as you do will not lead to success in overcoming sin.

In many cases people who hold your view have simply walked away from what they thought was the faith because it was too hard to work for something they could never achieve by their works.

In my case it was not until I understood the gospel and the extent of God's grace that I came to a right relationship with my Savior.

I pray for the same for you.

Matthew Twentyfour said:

Can't marry Jesus when he returns without dating Him first.

5 wise virgins were dating and waiting for His return.

5 foolish virgins never dated Christ and didn't expect His return.

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Jesus did not live in a polygamist society.

We are not radical Islamists looking for 72 virgins to take to our bedchambers.

Nor is the Son of God.

It seems like the Holy Spirit would have corrected you on this faulty interpretation of the parable if He was present in you.

Just sayin!

Matthew Twentyfour said:

And this confirms exactly what I've been saying. You can not be transformed without the relationship with Christ. Being saved is an ongoing process till one is finally converted, born again.

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1 Peter 1:23 "for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God."

They were already born again having heard and received the truth of the gospel.

You error greatly.

Being born again is not an ongoing process that yields the success of salvation if one is diligent enough in this life.

Salvation is a gift of God - not of works - lest any man should boast.

Your view amounts to missing the truth of the gospel completely.

I'd say, "Close but no cigar".

But the truth is that your gospel isn't even close. It misses by an infinite margin.

[B said:

No, you can't. Yes, it is.

Actually, He said NO ONE. iow, no person. Those believers who are also persons cannot remove from themselves their salvation.

Yes, that IS to say that NO ONE, NO SHEEP, can remove salvation. Now, as to fellowship, that is an entirely different issue. Yes, of course any believer can be out of fellowship, just as the prodigal son was. But the prodigal was ALWAYS a son, before he left, when he left, and when he came back.

The idea that one can lose salvation treats salvation like some kind of object; a coin perhaps. Nonsense. Salvation involves regeneration, a new birth, and eternal life and justification. These are NEVER said to be removed or lost.

Furthermore, after defining God's gifts as justification in Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17 and eternal life in Rom 6:23, then Paul wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29. That SEALS it.

Oh, and btw, speakiung of seals, God places the Holy Spirit into each believer, as a SEAL or PROMISE for the day of redemption. This isn't difficult to understand. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

I'm not going to go through your proof texts here, but it is only an assumption that these verses speak of salvation. They don't. If they did, they would contradict Rom 11:29, John 10:28, and the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit.

It is clearly taught in Scripture

Actually, the pursuit of holiness has nothing t do with our salvation. That is about spiritual growth, or sanctification. Yes, believers HAVE TO exert every effort to grow in grace.

The problem is that those who reject eternal security do not understand grace at all.

The are serious consequences for believers who are disobedient and willful. It's called divine discipline. For those who want to mock that, or minimize it as a mere "spanking" for being naughty, I recommend reading Psa 32:3-4 and Psa 38:1-17 to catch a glimpse of how God deals with those who disobey Him.

Or, from the NT, where Paul turned over the incestuous man to Satan for the "destruction of the flesh". How does that sound to you?

Or 1 Cor 11:30, where Paul noted that many were "weak and sick, and a number slept (physical death)[/B]".

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So you reject the clear teaching of scripture in favor of your personal view.

So what else is new?

I have posted what the word says and it says that salvation can be lost (or discarded).

According to the inerrant and infallible "Sola Scriptura," salvation is conditional.

COL1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

HEB 3:14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

2PE 1:5-10 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.”

You believe what you want and ignore whatever parts of scripture you want.

My job is just to tell you. I can't make you believe what you don't want to believe.

Wordkeeper said:

Here are the variables:


1 The person who believes in Christ for eternal life passes from death into eternal life.

2 The person who does not love his brother remains in death.

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Conclusion? One must love his brother to have eternal life. Nonsense. This is just a total misunderstanding of the various meanings of "death" in Scripture.

3 The person who puts to death the deeds of the body will live.

It seems that 2 and 3 are Scriptural and 1 is not.

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It really seems that your opinion of what Jesus actually SAID isn't very much. WOW!

John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

What other kind of "life" would Jesus be speaking of here in 5:24? Just physical life? How would that make any sense?

The real scriptural verse for 1 actually does not have the words "for eternal life". Rather it says:

John 5:24: "He who hears my word, and believes him that sent me, has eternal life, and comes not into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."


Wilkin interprets it like this, carefully avoiding the phrase, "hears my words":

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I'm not interested in what Wilkins says here. Only what Jesus Himself SAID. And what He SAID refutes what you said.

Jesus mentioned 'eternal life' before He said "has passed out of death into life".

If the second mention of "life" didn't mean eternal life, then what did it mean?

In John, the purpose for the incarnation, death, resurrection and glorification of The Word was to provide eternal life to humanity.

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Correct. John 20:31 summarizes the reason he wrote the gospel.

I don't think that the death referred to is the loss of fellowship because of not loving your brother. Rather it is not having eternal life because of not obeying Christ, not putting to death the deeds of the body, not loving your brother.

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Anyone is free to think whatever they want to think, but Scripture refutes your ideas about eternal life.

Here's a few verses:
John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Eternal life is gift of God (Rom 6:23) that is received on the basis of faith in Christ. Period. No works involved. See list.

fatherjimparker said:

So you reject the clear teaching of scripture in favor of your personal view.

So what else is new?

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What a ridiculous claim about my posts. I provided Scripture that backs up my claims. Hardly a "personal view".

I have posted what the word says and it says that salvation can be lost (or discarded).

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What "word" says that salvation can be lost? I'm not going to try to wade back through who knows how many pages to figure out the context here. Just repost what is meant so others don't have to try to figure out your context.

According to the inerrant and infallible "Sola Scriptura," salvation is conditional.

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This is merely a claim. And without any Scripture to back it up.

COL1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

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Where would one find anything about loss of salvation here? It isn't here. The phrase "IF you continue in your faith" does indicate that a believer may leave the faith, but where does Scripture equate that with loss of salvation? No where is where.

HEB 3:14 WE HAVE COME TO SHARE IN CHRIST IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

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Nothing here about loss of salvation. Instead, it is about our fellowship with christ IF we hold firmly till the end. Why should one assume that "sharing in Christ" is about salvation?

2PE 1:5-10 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

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Good heavens. Please READ the passage. There is NOTHING about loss of salvation. Instead, it is all about an abundant ENTRANCE into the eternal kingdom, which was stated in the VERY NEXT VERSE, which you may have dishonestly ignored, as it doesn't support your claim.

v.11 - for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

See? Nothing about gaining salvation or avoiding loss of salvation. Rather, it is about having an abundant entrance, rather than just a plain old one. iow, the passage is about spiritual growth which leads to eternal rewards.

EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.”

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A quick look at the whole context and one will realize that this is speaking of the death penalty. NOT eternal life or eternal death.

You believe what you want and ignore whatever parts of scripture you want.

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Oh, that's rich!! LOL Paul defined both justification and eternal life as gifts of God in Romans. Then he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable, and those of your ilk ignore that and try to put words into Paul's mouth about what the word "gift" MUST MEAN in 11:29, since, by your own views and opinions, it just CANNOT refer to the gifts that Paul already defined.

Paul defined what he meant by 'gift', and no one has any right or authority to "second guess" Paul in 11:29. The ONLY context for 'gift' is how he defined the word previously in Romans. But those of your ilk ignore reason and context to try to come up with some clever thing about 'gift' that shifts the meaning away from eternal life, which Paul DEFINED as a gift of God. That is quite pathetic.

My job is just to tell you. I can't make you believe what you don't want to believe.

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I certainly will NEVER believe the false doctrine that you believe. Ever.

FreeGrace2 said:

Conclusion? One must love his brother to have eternal life. Nonsense. This is just a total misunderstanding of the various meanings of "death" in Scripture.

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The text says that the one who does not love his brothers remains in death, has not passed from death into eternal life

It really seems that your opinion of what Jesus actually SAID isn't very much. WOW!

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We use lexicons to find out what words mean in the times that the documents were written in. Lexicons take examples of the word usage from various documents shown in those times, both biblical and secular and give you the most common usages. In Antiquities, when Josephus asks the Maccabean revolutionaries to believe in him, he is not claiming to be Messiah, but asking them to follow his way, listen to his tactics, obey his orders...

John 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.What other kind of "life" would Jesus be speaking of here in 5:24? Just physical life? How would that make any sense?

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You claim that this is an instance of fellowship, temporal life. I say it means eternal life. Now you seem to claim it is eternal life. You don't seem to understand the sources you are reading from.

I'm not interested in what Wilkins says here. Only what Jesus Himself SAID. And what He SAID refutes what you said.Jesus mentioned 'eternal life' before He said "has passed out of death into life".If the second mention of "life" didn't mean eternal life, then what did it mean?

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“Hears my word" is a hebraism for "obeys me", which is what is required to pass from death into life. How hard is it to understand that?

Correct. John 20:31 summarizes the reason he wrote the gospel.Anyone is free to think whatever they want to think, but Scripture refutes your ideas about eternal life.Here's a few verses:John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.Eternal life is gift of God (Rom 6:23) that is received on the basis of faith in Christ. Period. No works involved. See list.

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All requiring "believes" to mean "obeys Jesus's commands".

John 8:51 (and parallels)Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.


Free Grace theology teaches that those who believe in Jesus for receiving eternal life will be saved. Those who work to mature will receive a rich welcome into the kingdom of God, implying that mere belief results in ensuring only a poor welcome, being allowed into heaven by the skin of one's teeth.


There may be a case for this view. When Israel repented, turned away from serving Egypt to promising to serve God and worked, acted by leaving Egypt, God promised they would never return to Egypt. Even those who finally disobeyed their promise of being loyal to God were kept free from slavery and were fully provided for, never starving and even the sandals on their feet never wore out.


Similarly believers who are baptised receive the Holy Spirit who takes their spirits to be with Christ in high places.


Believers who put to death the deeds of the body receive life for their body, become good trees which produce good fruit, are a blessing to the world, out of their inner beings flow springs of living water and they are able to have a share in Christ's work and glorification. Their bodies are resurrected.


Those who do not put to death the deeds of their body do not experience regeneration of the body. If they sin, they are abandoned by the body of Christ for the destruction of the flesh, so that the body which has become a liability, will not drag down the spirit, which is then preserved until the day of Christ. Apparently such believers enter the age to come with bodiless spirits, like most of the old covenant believers, who did not receive the benefits of the covenant of grace, the empowering of the Holy Spirit, made available by the ascension of the resurrected Christ, towards the glorification of the body.

Wordkeeper said:

The text says that the one who does not love his brothers remains in death, has not passed from death into eternal life

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Please cite and quote said verse. I'm aware of the verse that says "his brothers remains in death", and another verse that says "passed from death into eternal life". But they are DIFFERENT verses.

You claim that this is an instance of fellowship, temporal life. I say it means eternal life.

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One can say anything.

Now you seem to claim it is eternal life.

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I haven't changed anything I've said. If there is any evidence for that, please cite the post #s and words. Claims are worthless apart from evidence.

You don't seem to understand the sources you are reading from.

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Seems you don't understand what I've posted.

“Hears my word" is a hebraism for "obeys me", which is what is required to pass from death into life. How hard is it to understand that?

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The question is to obey what, exactly?

All requiring "believes" to mean "obeys Jesus's commands".

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I suggest looking up the Greek word for believe. There isn't any mention of obedience. It's all about trust. Committing your soul to Christ for salvation. How many people have that kind of trust? Certainly not the ones who believe that they must work for salvation, or work to maintain salvation, or work to avoid losing their salvation.

John 8:51 (and parallels)Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.

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If this is how one will "never see death", then how come Paul lied to the jailer? he told the jailer to believe in Jesus Christ.

Free Grace theology teaches that those who believe in Jesus for receiving eternal life will be saved.

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Because the Bible teaches that quite clearly.

Those who work to mature will receive a rich welcome into the kingdom of God, implying that mere belief results in ensuring only a poor welcome, being allowed into heaven by the skin of one's teeth.

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No, not a "poor" welcome. Just a plain non-abundant welcome. Which would you prefer?

Believers who put to death the deeds of the body receive life for their body, become good trees which produce good fruit, are a blessing to the world, out of their inner beings flow springs of living water and they are able to have a share in Christ's work and glorification. Their bodies are resurrected.

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All believers are resurrected.

Those who do not put to death the deeds of their body do not experience regeneration of the body.

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There are no verses that say this. All believers are "born again", which is regeneration. The new birth. Your views are quite wrong.

FreeGrace2 said:

Please cite and quote said verse. I'm aware of the verse that says "his brothers remains in death", and another verse that says "passed from death into eternal life". But they are DIFFERENT verses.


One can say anything.


I haven't changed anything I've said. If there is any evidence for that, please cite the post #s and words. Claims are worthless apart from evidence.


Seems you don't understand what I've posted.


The question is to obey what, exactly?


I suggest looking up the Greek word for believe. There isn't any mention of obedience. It's all about trust. Committing your soul to Christ for salvation. How many people have that kind of trust? Certainly not the ones who believe that they must work for salvation, or work to maintain salvation, or work to avoid losing their salvation.


If this is how one will "never see death", then how come Paul lied to the jailer? he told the jailer to believe in Jesus Christ.


Because the Bible teaches that quite clearly.


No, not a "poor" welcome. Just a plain non-abundant welcome. Which would you prefer?


All believers are resurrected.


There are no verses that say this. All believers are "born again", which is regeneration. The new birth. Your views are quite wrong.

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When you state that all believers are resurrected is this some liberal or preterist terminology of being changed spiritually from losers of the world to victors in Christ.

What about a physical resuscitated resurrection after death?

Do you believe that believers receive eternal life after they die and are physically resuscitated or are you saying like the liberalists and the preterists that the resurreciton is only an allegory to suggest spiritual resurrection from being dead in sin to now living in Christ?

Please explain, I just need to understand what you mean by:

ALL BELIEVERS ARE RESURRECTED.

Concerning Wordkeeper's variable 2: The person who does not love his brother remains in death.

I John 3: 14We know that we have passed over from death into life because we love the brothers. Anyone not loving remains in death. 15Anyone hating his brother is a murderer, and we know that any murderer does not have eternal life remaining in him.

FreeGrace2 said:

Please cite and quote said verse. I'm aware of the verse that says "his brothers remains in death", and another verse that says "passed from death into eternal life". But they are DIFFERENT verses.

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I John 3:14We know that we have passed over from death into life because we love the brothers. Anyone not loving remains in death. 15Anyone hating his brother is a murderer, and we know that any murderer does not have eternal life remaining in him.

One can say anything.

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Here, let me help you out of your confusion and try to keep track of your own contradictory statement:


Here you said this:

Seems many believers are ignorant of the fact of temporal death, or being out of fellowship.

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Meaning that the person who does not love his brothers suffers temporal death, is out of fellowship.

To rebut my statement:

That is contradictory to scripture which says that if we do not obey Christ's command, to love each other, we remain in death:

Here you claim that what was lost was eternal life:

What other kind of "life" would Jesus be speaking of here in 5:24? Just physical life? How would that make any sense?

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In rebuttal to I don’t know what.

Here you say:

Anyone is free to think whatever they want to think, but Scripture refutes your ideas about eternal life.

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Meaning that the death spoke of in 1 John 3:14 refers to loss of eternal life.

In rebuttal to my statement

I don't think that the death referred to is the loss of fellowship because of not loving your brother. Rather it is not having eternal life because of not obeying Christ, not putting to death the deeds of the body, not loving your brother.

I haven't changed anything I've said. If there is any evidence for that, please cite the post #s and words. Claims are worthless apart from evidence.

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This is going to be a hard slog, if I have to explain to you what you posted.

Seems you don't understand what I've posted.

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We’ll see. Please untangle the above.

The question is to obey what, exactly?

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Good question, and this should gladden your anti-legalistic heart. Jesus commanded us to follow Him. Did He do good works? No! He claimed that it was the Father working in Him. Therefore to follow Him is to be still and let God fight the deeds of the body in us. In order to do that we have to submit those deeds. In turn, in order to do that, we have to admit those deeds exist. Therefore, therefore:


1 John 1:6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Supported by the parallel:

8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


That should make you happy, right? Because it does not ask you to work. If you work then what you receive is a wage and not a gift, which is what sanctification, grace, is. It is a gift.

I suggest looking up the Greek word for believe. There isn't any mention of obedience. It's all about trust. Committing your soul to Christ for salvation. How many people have that kind of trust? Certainly not the ones who believe that they must work for salvation, or work to maintain salvation, or work to avoid losing their salvation.

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From a friend of mine, Tercel, at tWeb:

http://theogeek.blogspot.in/2006/03/patron-client-system-and-hebrews-111.html

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Anyway, the take home lesson is:

Next time you're reading the bible and you see the words "faith" or "belief" read "faithfulness" instead and think "Patron-Client system = faithfulness repaid with favours". (Of course the result won't make much sense because it won't fit with how the translators have translated the rest of the sentence)


A great rule to keep in mind is this: Faithfulness is targeted at people, belief is targeted at ideas. You can be committed to a person, or committed to an idea. But talking about faithfulness to an idea, or belief in a person is nonsense.


Another example: Jesus says "believe in me". [which is a mis-translation of course, breaking the above rule] Jesus is asking for people to become his clients. ie he's saying "follow me". He's not saying "believe that I am God". There are other examples in classical literature of people saying "believe in me", and guess what, they were wanting clients, not claiming divinity.


I can only hope that over the next couple of decades that these developments can start filtering through to mainstream bible translations.

If this is how one will "never see death", then how come Paul lied to the jailer? he told the jailer to believe in Jesus Christ.

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See above.

Because the Bible teaches that quite clearly.

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Please show where the Bible says a person who believes in Jesus for eternal life is saved, as Bob Wilkin and Zane Hodges, the founders of Free Grace claim. Unless you are one of the many break away sects of Free Grace:


http://www.faithalone.org/journal/1998ii/J21-98d.htm

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Believing general Bible truth. You can believe many biblical concepts and still miss the one truth that is savingthe truth of the gospel. For example, you can attest to Jesus' deity, His virgin birth, and His bodily resurrection, and yet not believe Jesus' promise to give you eternal life freely if you just believe in Him for it. There is only one truth that will save: Jesus' guarantee that anyone who believes in Him for eternal life has it.

No, not a "poor" welcome. Just a plain non-abundant welcome. Which would you prefer?

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I would prefer a better resurrection, where I am reunited with my glorified body and justified spirit. Definitely would not like to enter with just a justified spirit, without a sanctified body. That is why I confess my sins to my prayer partner, for accountability, and he prays that the Lord will forgive my sins cleanse me from that unrighteous habit. Thats why He sent Jesus to save His sheep from their sins. So that they could be great in the Kingdom of God, could share in the second Adam’s work, be a life giving Spirit. Which the Old Covenant believers could not do. Not even John the Baptiser, the greatest amongst those born of women. Just imagine, we have this grace which even the heroes of faith never had. Just imagine, what would be the rebuke, for rejecting this great a salvation. Today, if you hear His voice...

All believers are resurrected. There are no verses that say this. All believers are "born again", which is regeneration. The new birth. Your views are quite wrong.

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Some receive a better resurrection, the text saying we may be resurrected conditional on being united with Him in His death.

Romans 6:5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.

Romans 8:17Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.


Ephesians 4:13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Philippians 3:8What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ.

Romans 8:23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.