Debate: Preston/Anderson vs. Ice/Hitchcock 2nd Coming of Christ

random person said:

If the Old Covenant passed in A.D. 30 then why did Israel fall under the Mosaic curse in A.D. 70?

Then why did Israel fall under judgment in A.D. 70?

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Because they did not have the blood covenant protection in a similar way the Egyptians didn't have the blood on their doors and their firstborns were killed.

Everyone regardless of 70AD when they have not the blood covenant protection and reject the gospel have bad things happen to them. Take for example in post modernism where Europeans declared that they have killed God. What followed is two world wars.

Historically any nation that has rejected the gospel and denied the Son have been recompensed accordingly by God when he allowed bad things to happen to them.

Even today those who do not have the blood covenant covering are under God's wrath and mosaic curses regardless of 70AD.

As far as God is concerned when he sent his only begotten Son as the sacrifice for the sin offering for all the world, there is no more curses on the believers but those that know not the Son will never see life but have the wrath of God upon them.

Therefore many unbelievers who have not the blood covering are under the curse of the law that stated that they must die.

As far as 70AD is concerned this happened because they had not the blood covering. Does that mean that God had dual covenants until 70AD. Or as the futurists say God still has dual covenants.

No way!

God made a new covenant with the world at the cross which was conditionally based on accepting it.

As far as salvation is concerned God has only one covenant and that is of his Son. If people don't accept it, then they fall under the curses of the mosaic law. People choose whether they want to be under the protection of the covenant that God has provided or they want to fall under the curses that used to judge man prior to the cross.

That being said the Old covenant as far as God is concerned was nailed on the cross on the part of believers who were imputed Christ's righteousness and in so doing they become free to walk free men, because God paid the bail bond in full. Though they walk as free men, they have been bailed out on good behaviour bond and so they must abide in Christ as his prisoners until death. If they break the parol conditions by not staying in Christ onto desth, then that person is still lost. Christ said many are called and justified by my blood yet very few are sanctified by my Spirit and enter in eternal life.

Very important to note that we are all on parol and we must be rehabilitated in this life by the Holy Spirit of God to conform to the beatitudes of Christ and to be made in his personage.

I believe that Jews today can come as the 11th hour workmen and enjoy the blood covenant protection and be most welcomed by the majority of Christains who look forward to that day. As Christains we need not look beyond the new covenant to national Israel but have national Israel peoples come on board with the new covenant. Christ is interested in people's and their souls and Jewsish souls need to come one by one and have and enjoy the protection.

random person said:

Where in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve were immortal?

The Bible states they were made of dust.

How is it possible for procreative immortal beings could possibly exist on the limited space of Earth?

Explosive population growth and overcrowding could not be overcome. We would be living shoulder to shoulder one with one another. Adam and Eve would still be here with us today without ever ever entering the Kingdom of Heaven.

There is no entrance into heaven into God's presence. There is no eternal rest for the living. Adam and Eve would be around 6,000 years old on a planet that must seek interplanetary travel and terraform other worlds in order to accommodate the earth's overcrowding of GENERATIONS of immortal humans.

REMEMBER CHINA?!

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random person said:

Where in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve were immortal?

The Bible states they were made of dust.

How is it possible for procreative immortal beings could possibly exist on the limited space of Earth?

Explosive population growth and overcrowding could not be overcome. We would be living shoulder to shoulder one with one another. Adam and Eve would still be here with us today without ever ever entering the Kingdom of Heaven.

There is no entrance into heaven into God's presence. There is no eternal rest for the living. Adam and Eve would be around 6,000 years old on a planet that must seek interplanetary travel and terraform other worlds in order to accommodate the earth's overcrowding of GENERATIONS of immortal humans.

REMEMBER CHINA?!

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Mark 12:27
Sadducees Question the Resurrection
…26"But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, and the God of Jacob '? 27"He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken."

John 8:56-59 King James Version (KJV)
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 10:18
17"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18"No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

Revelation 21 King James Version (KJV)
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

random person said:

The destruction of the temple and Israel were both necessary and the Law stood until ALL things were fulfilled which includes the second coming of Christ in A.D. 70, the judgment of Israel, and the destruction of the Temple.

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Did Christ appear visibly and bodily in 70 AD?

Are the admonitions to Christians to look for His appearing to be ignored, because He has already returned in 70 AD and we missed it?


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Did Christ return after the tribulation of the Roman siege during 70 AD?
The streets ran with blood after the Romans finally broke into the city.
Did Christ wait and return after the temple and the city were burned, which produced black smoke that filled the sky?

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Was He seen visibly in 70 AD, after the temple and the city burned?

Mat 24:31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Did those present in 70 AD hear a trumpet from God or would you count trumpets blown by the Romans instead?
Were the first Christians removed after the tribulation of the siege during 70 AD or did they leave before?



Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Did He tell them it would occur within their generation?

Act 1:8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
They saw His body go up into heaven. Did anyone see His body come back down in 70 AD ?



Col_3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Did this mean they would appear with Him in glory in 70 AD?


1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
1Ti 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
1Ti 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Can we forget all of the things above, because Christ appeared in 70 AD?



2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Has He already judged the quick and the dead in 70 AD?

2Ti_4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Did we miss out on a crown, because He appeared in 70 AD?


Heb_9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Are we to not look for Him, because He came the second time in 70 AD?



1Pe_1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Were the first Christians tried by fire in 70 AD? or did they leave before the city was surrounded, because they headed the warning in the Olivet Discourse?

1Pe_5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
Have we missed out, because it happened in 70 AD?

1Jn_2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. Can Christians today ignore this, because He came in 70 AD?


1Jn_3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Are we to ignore this, because He came in 70 AD?


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Preterist theology destroys the hope in believers to look forward to be reunited with their Lord and saviour.

Preterist don't even consider Christians who have been martyred from 70AD until today as martyrs. Ask them and they will not define them as martyrs. You know what their answer will be; there is no need for martyrs after 70AD.

In short preterist believe the following:

1) Christ ascended into heaven as a spirit and will never return.
2) Christ didn't personally come on 70AD, only judgment came in his memory.
3) There are no Christian martyrs after 70AD and no need for them.
4) Miracles stopped after 70AD.
5) Revelation stopped after 70AD.
5) Preaching the gospel was not needed after 70AD because it had already been preached to all the world by that time.
6) There is no bodily resurrection after death, it is only a spiritual application when a person is made victorious in Christ through death. Resurrection is a hero status and that is all.
7) There is no real and tangible Father's house in heaven.
8) This world will never end.
9) The seventh trumpet was sounded on 70AD.
10) Christians will not be reunited with the risen Lord.
11) After 70AD Christians don't have any tribulations.
12) After 70AD Christains are not in a spiritual warfare.
13) The old covenant along with its mosaic curses ended 40 years after God gave his only begotten Son as a sacrifice to atone for our sins.
14) People that died from the period at cross to just before 70AD were under the mosaic curses and not the new covenant of grace.
15) Eternal life is a thought, a mere idea received in the mind after 70AD, but never something to be received after a person dies.
16) There is no judgment after death, a person ceases to exist consciously.
17) The devil was Jerusalem and Satan is not a real person, he is just a thought that existed until 70AD when he was killed by the Romans.
18) Satan doesn't exist after 70AD.
19) After 70AD spiritually there is no pain and no suffering and no tears and no spiritual death.
20) Heavenly New Jerusalem is the new covenant church age, that will never end.
21) Preterism is the correct faith and mainstream church that encompassed the time from 34AD to now have the incorrect faith.

Have I missed any? If so, please help me by adding more onto the long list.

Revelation 3:11
I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown

"Preterist theology destroys the hope in believers to look forward to be reunited with their Lord and saviour."


That this religion does and it is prevalent among professing Christianity and has been for a long long time

The objective .... to systematically destroy the fabric of the Lord's Word .... this is sinister work

And the venue is to tatter and burn the Lord's more sure word of prophecy by ignoring, by allegory, by metaphor, and by displacement

If one who teaches prophecy and exegetical study does not have an air tight fortress of the prophetic word, the preterist will work to breach the walls and then to rip your teaching apart

Militant preterism is all over the place on the Christian forums today with agendas and in various forms

They are easily detected by B777's 21 points listed and also by their crass behavior toward other posters

Straightshot said:

If one who teaches prophecy and exegetical study does not have an air tight fortress of the prophetic word, the preterist will work to breach the walls and then to rip your teaching apart

Militant preterism is all over the place on the Christian forums today with agendas and in various forms

They are easily detected by B777's 21 points listed and also by their crass behavior toward other posters (Watch out for that Beam in the eye.)

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Random was completely correct in his assertion that Don Preston completely destroyed the arguments made by Dr. Tommy Ice and Mark Hitchcock.

Here in the South we might say... "He handed them their hats."

Preston showed their doctrine for what it really is.
The 2 Peoples/ 2 Plans/ 2 Kingdoms/ 2 or more Gospels/ 2 Plans of Salvation(Grace and later Law)/ Scripture "Rightly Divided" into 2 Parts/ 2 Second Comings of Christ doctrine is not found in God's Word.

Preston's brilliant debate strategy leaves the door wide open for him to then say...

"I have got the correct interpretation. Jesus came back in 70 AD."

As Christians we must then examine every detail of what Don Preston has presented to see if it matches up with everything written in scripture.

If his version also uses the same cherry-picking, twisting, and ignoring of scripture used by Dispensational Futurists, then we have to speak the truth and say Mr. Preston is also in error.

If we do so, it is not meant to be a personal attack on those who agree with Mr. Preston.

However, the Blood sacrifice of our Savior demands that we seek the understanding of the New Testament writers.

There can only be One Gospel.

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So what

Don Preston is a hyper preterist .... not even worth wasting any time to entertain

What men engage in arguments over for pomp and sport related to their religious affiliations means nothing

It is the Lord and His Word that will have the last laugh [Psalms 2]

One contractual agreement on offer and not two.

Isaiah 28
16Therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone,
A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.

18“Your covenant with death will be canceled,
And your pact with Sheol will not stand;
When the overwhelming scourge passes through,
Then you become its trampling place.

When God put forth the cornerstone Christ Jesus this brought about a new contractual agreement and immediately cancelled and made obsolete the old covenant mosaic curses under the law. God does not hold two contracts in his hands that are diametrically opposites. It is not about Israel as a nation, it is about agreement that God made with man and the contractual agreement with his Son Jesus Christ is firmly in his right hand and the old covenant is filed away to be only used in condemnation to those who still by default don't accept his Son and therefore are judged by it.

There is no agreement of salvation under the old covenant and Israel as a nation cannot say we have a covenant with death, this is laughable because they are just admitting that they are doomed because that convenant brings death and not salvation to them.

Did the Apostle Paul say the early Church was under both covenants during his time?
Why was he constantly battling with the Judaisers, if two systems of salvation were working at the same time?



Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Did Paul tell them there were two plans of salvation in effect?


Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Could they have used either way for salvation?


Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Would he have said this if there were two plans?


Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.


Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Is Paul saying the Law was still in effect?


Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.


Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.


Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. Abraham heard the Gospel in his day. He was told the Seed to whom the Promise was made would come through his descendants.


Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Salvation has always been through faith. David was an adulterer and a murderer.


Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.


Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: This verse is past tense. They were already redeemed from keeping the Law.


Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. The Promise comes through the One Seed.


Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.


Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
The Promise does not come through the Old Covenant.


Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
The Seed had already come when Paul wrote this.


Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.


Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
The Law only showed the people their sin. It never brought salvation.


Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Faith had already come in the person of Jesus Christ.


Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Again this verse is past-tense in Paul's day.


Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Christ had already come.


Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. If both covenants were in effect, being a Jew should have been an advantage.


Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
The Promise was made only to those in-Christ, not to those still making animal sacrifices during the time this was written.

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Notrash said:

2 pet 2:1-3( i think it is) refers to deut 18:15-19 and holds one of the keys to the first century application of 2 peter 3. A second key is relating 2 pet 3:10 & 12 to Deut 32 (certain verses) and realizing that deut 32 prophecied @50-70 AD.

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That's 2 Peter 1:16-21 which refers to Deut 18:15-19; which by the logic of Jesus being that prophet according to Peter, Stephen and Jesus applied to the first century timeframe. Thus 2 Peter 1-3 applied to first century mosaic covt judea.

1 Peter 4:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
2 Timothy 2:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
Mark 16:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature

Romans 6:3-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Notrash said:

That's 2 Peter 1:16-21 which refers to Deut 18:15-19; which by the logic of Jesus being that prophet according to Peter, Stephen and Jesus applied to the first century timeframe. Thus 2 Peter 1-3 applied to first century mosaic covt judea.

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And so.............

Show us more, where is the context, Hmmmm! Thought so!

2 Timothy 1:3-7
3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. 7They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

Futurist dual covenant theology is foolish talk from devoting themselves to national Israel genealogies, concerning the covenant teachers of the mosaic law and in doing so have departed from the faith once given to the first century saints.

2 Timothy 2
23Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Once again by another apostle:

Titus 3
9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. 11You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.

The apostle advises the believers that if you meet people who start talking about dual covenant theology regarding the law, then warn them once and the second time and after that on the third time have nothing to do with them.

Dual covenant theology as Timothy writes is the trap of the devil who has taken people captive to do his bidding.

It is preposterous to say there exists dual covenantional contractual agreements concerning salvation. Once God posted the bail bond in full on the cross at Calvary he cancelled the first agreement that was with death along with all of the mosaic curses that the devil brought upon man in accusing him before God and replaced it with the blood covenant of his Son that destroyed all of Satan's accusation against man by silencing the devil forever.