Debate: Preston/Anderson vs. Ice/Hitchcock 2nd Coming of Christ

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In 2003 Christ Covenant Church held a Prophecy Conference in St. Petesburg, Florida. I was there and filmed these entire event. In this debate Thomas Ice & Mark Hitchcock are in the affirmative that the 2nd Coming of Christ is a future event while Don K. Preston and John Anderson are in the negative arguing that the 2nd Coming of Christ was in 70 A.D.

FOR SOME STRANGE REASON THE FIRST HOUR TWO MINUTES AND TWENTY SECONDS IS THE QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSION AFTER THE DEBATE AND OF COURSE IT SHOULD BE AT THE END. IF YOU WANT TO START AT THE BEGINNING OF THE DEBATE GO TO THE 1 HR. 2 MINUTES AND 20 SECOND MARK OF THE DEBATE. THE PROGRAM I USED TO TAKE THIS OFF MY DVD DID NOT FUNCTION RIGHT AND I WILL TRY TO CORRECT IT LATER. IT TOOK ME 8 HOURS TO CONVERT THE DVD FOR YOUTUBE AND UPLOAD IT TO YOUTUBE. SORRY FOR THE INCONVENIENCE.

 

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In this debate Thomas Ice & Mark Hitchcock are in the affirmative that the 2nd Coming of Christ is a future event while Don K. Preston and John Anderson are in the negative arguing that the 2nd Coming of Christ was in 70 A.D.

I am in the strange position having found myself in between one group in the ditch on the right side of the road and another group who avoided that ditch by overcorrecting and going into the ditch on the opposite side of the road.

One group only sees the first question in Matthew chapter 24 and the other group only sees the second question in the same passage.



Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.


Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


The disciples asked Jesus two questions and Jesus answered two questions in the Olivet Discourse.
 
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Notrash

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There are many who see only one question. It is about tge signs of his coming to destroy the tempke and end tge mosaic covt age (aion).

The word "and" can be distinctive/seperative or conjunctive and associative. Your reading it as seperating and distinctive. If this were tge intentiin the word "also" may have likely been employed by the disciples such as saying; When will these things be [ the felling of the temple so that not one stone be left on another] and also [while your at it] what will be the signs of thy coming and the end of the KOSMOS or KITSIOS(creation). They did not ask these things but of signs leading up to the fall of the temple and the end of the mosaic covt AGE ( aeon). All 3 or both questiins were concerning the same topic.
 
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But most Aposates can not figure out the rapture the second coming> the second coming or the rapture!> the rapture and the second coming!!>???? It must be nice to be so apostated you have no Idea what the hell your talking about. But Boy you talk.


Whateva! :/

What did Jesus say in John 17:15, 20?

Luke 17:20-21?

John 18:36?

John 4:20-24?

What did Paul write in Ephesians 3:21?

Hebrews 13:20?
 
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BABerean2

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There are many who see only one question. It is about tge signs of his coming to destroy the tempke and end tge mosaic covt age (aion).

The word "and" can be distinctive/seperative or conjunctive and associative. Your reading it as seperating and distinctive. If this were tge intentiin the word "also" may have likely been employed by the disciples such as saying; When will these things be [ the felling of the temple so that not one stone be left on another] and also [while your at it] what will be the signs of thy coming and the end of the KOSMOS or KITSIOS(creation). They did not ask these things but of signs leading up to the fall of the temple and the end of the mosaic covt AGE ( aeon). All 3 or both questiins were concerning the same topic.

In answering the first question, Christ gave specific signs to look for.

In the second question, Christ did not give specific signs to look for.
Christ said He did not know when. Only the Father knows.



Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Heaven and earth pass away on the Day of the Lord. (2nd Peter chapter 3 and Isa. chapter 65)

(Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.


Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. )



Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

.
 
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In answering the first question, Christ gave specific signs to look for.

In the second question, Christ did not give specific signs to look for.
Christ said He did not know when. Only the Father knows.



Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Heaven and earth pass away on the Day of the Lord. (2nd Peter chapter 3 and Isa. chapter 65)

(Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.


Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. )



Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

.


Jesus gave them signs to look for but that no man nor the angels of heaven knew the exact moment when the Destruction of Jerusalem would occur. The actual day and date when the unbreachable walls of Jerusalem fell and Romans rushed into the city is known. I've forgotten it though.
 
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Berean777

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Published on Sep 28, 2014
In 2003 Christ Covenant Church held a Prophecy Conference in St. Petesburg, Florida. I was there and filmed these entire event. In this debate Thomas Ice & Mark Hitchcock are in the affirmative that the 2nd Coming of Christ is a future event while Don K. Preston and John Anderson are in the negative arguing that the 2nd Coming of Christ was in 70 A.D.

FOR SOME STRANGE REASON THE FIRST HOUR TWO MINUTES AND TWENTY SECONDS IS THE QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSION AFTER THE DEBATE AND OF COURSE IT SHOULD BE AT THE END. IF YOU WANT TO START AT THE BEGINNING OF THE DEBATE GO TO THE 1 HR. 2 MINUTES AND 20 SECOND MARK OF THE DEBATE. THE PROGRAM I USED TO TAKE THIS OFF MY DVD DID NOT FUNCTION RIGHT AND I WILL TRY TO CORRECT IT LATER. IT TOOK ME 8 HOURS TO CONVERT THE DVD FOR YOUTUBE AND UPLOAD IT TO YOUTUBE. SORRY FOR THE INCONVENIENCE.


Both are wrong because the coming of Christ has a context that is ignored by both parties.

The preterists say the coming happened in 70AD spiritually when they allegorise it as a judgment coming upon the wicked who persecuted the first century church, by assuming it is related to the end of the age.

This futurists say the coming happens in the future literally to fulfil the prophesy of Christ sitting on an earthly Davidic throne in literal Israel.

One party assumes the end of age is the context, whilst the other assumes a Davidic throne on earth established.

The truth in th matter is the context of the Lord's Appearing is in context to a departed individual in relation to the reaping from the harvest and the separation of the sheep and the goats.

My claim is that the Lord has been coming secretly for every departed INDIVDUAL throughout the last 2000 years as all humans are being harvested and separated as sheeps and goats across the entire new covenant age that we live in. The seventh trumpet that is sounded by the Lord at the end of the new covenant age when he declares time no longer, will signal the end of the millennium reign and a new beginning for those who have entered in the wedding supper of the lamb across the time of the harvest that was allotted for the reaping.

Hence death brings every knew bowing before the risen Lord for judgement and all eyes will see him within the context that all men are destined to die once then judgement.

Death comes on a day and hour that no man knows to Torsten the individual before the Lord for judgment. It has nothing to do with the end of the age or the Davidic throne. It is about the reaping from the harvest and separating the sheep and the goats.
 
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BABerean2

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Jesus gave them signs to look for but that no man nor the angels of heaven knew the exact moment when the Destruction of Jerusalem would occur. The actual day and date when the unbreachable walls of Jerusalem fell and Romans rushed into the city is known. I've forgotten it though.

Is it your belief that the gathering of 1st Thess. chapters 4 and 5 has also, already occurred?
 
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Berean777

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It would be concievable in those days that Paul thought that he and those with him would be the last wine of the harvest, yet John the revelator has the post 70AD testimony that the first century church the women mentioned that was persecuted by the red dragon, would not be the last but that seeds would follow her in her footsteps as the symbol of the two witnesses that symbolise the ministry of the seven churches.

In the following versus post 100AD when John was on the island of Patmos a Roman Prison colony was told by the Lord that he AGAIN needed to prophesy according to his letters to the seven churches. the word YET AGAIN alludes to the fact that post 70AD silenced the preaching of the gospel as everyone went into hiding, so John was inpired by the Lord to once AGAIN kick start the engine to preach/prophesy YET AGAIN.

Revelation 10:10-11
And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy
again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

However if you follow the chronology John doesn't do the prophesying, he just instructs the seven churches who had been silenced to do the prophesying yet AGAIN. The chronology follows into Rev 11 when the symbol of the two witnesses are the gentile seven churches who are the seeds of the women (first century Jewish church), who continue the remaining 3.5 days of Daniel's 70th week.

This would indicate that preterists are wrong to presume the last remaining 3.5 symbolic days of Daniel's 70th week are just before 70AD leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem. This time frame would point to post 100AD where the preaching of the gospel message needed to yet AGAIN be preached, but now by the seeds of the women, who are the symbol of the two witnesses, which the letter is addressed to by a now old and frail man John who is in his last years.
 
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Straightshot

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"My claim is that the Lord has been coming secretly for every departed INDIVDUAL throughout the last 2000 years"


Nay ..... all both "together" .... the dead in Christ and the living at the time ... in a moment, a twinkling of an eye

There is no scriptural support for your idea

[Psalms 115:17; 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5; 12:7; John 3:13;]

Paul said that he would rather be with the Lord than in this present life, but so do we all and his statement does not imply that one goes to heaven at the moment of death .... no man has yet gone to heaven except the One who has come down from heaven

There is no time passing for the dead and all are waiting for the Lord's call

When the thief on the cross died the very next thing will be conscious of is the Lord's call still pending as we speak

This is why the Lord said that the thief would be in heaven "today"

The dead in Christ know nothing
 
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Berean777

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"My claim is that the Lord has been coming secretly for every departed INDIVDUAL throughout the last 2000 years"


Nay ..... all both "together" .... the dead in Christ and the living at the time ... in a moment, a twinkling of an eye

There is no scriptural support for your idea

[Psalms 115:17; 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5; 12:7; John 3:13;]

Paul said that he would rather be with the Lord than in this present life, but so do we all and his statement does not imply that one goes to heaven at the moment of death .... no man has yet gone to heaven except the One who has come down from heaven

There is no time passing for the dead and all are waiting for the Lord's call

When the thief on the cross died the very next thing will be conscious of is the Lord's call still pending as we speak

This is why the Lord said that the thief would be in heaven "today"

The dead in Christ know nothing

But the living shall not hinder the dead.
 
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Straightshot

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True .... the dead will not be left when the living are transformed at the Lord's call

He will transform the dead to immortality together with the living at the time

1 Corinthians
15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians
4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


The dead no nothing and will awake at His call .... still pending

When the believer dies the believer's spirit is returned to God for keeping and the body turns back to dust

In fact, all human spirits have the same experience except for believers who will still be in the body at the time [these will not have time to die first, but will instantly transforment to immortality] .... and of the dead some will awake to eternal life .... and some will awake to the second death of their spirits
 
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BABerean2

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The dead no nothing and will awake at His call .... still pending

How can the souls of the dead ask a question, if they know nothing?

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Someone must be confused, and it is not the writer of the Book of Revelation.
 
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Both are wrong because the coming of Christ has a context that is ignored by both parties.

The preterists say the coming happened in 70AD spiritually when they allegorise it as a judgment coming upon the wicked who persecuted the first century church, by assuming it is related to the end of the age.

This futurists say the coming happens in the future literally to fulfil the prophesy of Christ sitting on an earthly Davidic throne in literal Israel.

One party assumes the end of age is the context, whilst the other assumes a Davidic throne on earth established.

The truth in th matter is the context of the Lord's Appearing is in context to a departed individual in relation to the reaping from the harvest and the separation of the sheep and the goats.

My claim is that the Lord has been coming secretly for every departed INDIVDUAL throughout the last 2000 years as all humans are being harvested and separated as sheeps and goats across the entire new covenant age that we live in. The seventh trumpet that is sounded by the Lord at the end of the new covenant age when he declares time no longer, will signal the end of the millennium reign and a new beginning for those who have entered in the wedding supper of the lamb across the time of the harvest that was allotted for the reaping.

Hence death brings every knew bowing before the risen Lord for judgement and all eyes will see him within the context that all men are destined to die once then judgement.

Death comes on a day and hour that no man knows to Torsten the individual before the Lord for judgment. It has nothing to do with the end of the age or the Davidic throne. It is about the reaping from the harvest and separating the sheep and the goats.

Here is an article that best explains my view:

How could Christ’s final judgments in 70ad apply to all of us who hadn’t even lived yet?

The answer to this question is based upon the nature of God Himself. He is eternal, sovereign, all-knowing, all-powerful, everywhere-present, and the Almighty Creator of all things. He is not limited by such a phenomenon as "time". He is not restricted in any way from being eternally and continually present throughout His endless creation.

He sees the past, the present, and the future all at once. He knows all about us before we are born-again in Christ. He also knows all about us after we are born-again and during our entire lives thereafter on this earth and beyond. He is present at every tick of the clock for eternity since the foundation of the seen and unseen worlds. There is not now nor has there ever been even one atom with its protons, neutrons, and electrons that is outside His sight and control.

God sovereignly chose the time of His second coming Parousia in the first century generation of His Apostles as the point in all of human history when His final judgments would be adjudicated and carried out for everyone.

"41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here." (Matt.12:41).

"36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things (judgments) will come upon this generation." (Matt.23:36).

"34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." (Matt.24:34).



All of His elect believers throughout history have their names written in the Book of Life and are awarded eternal life in the presence of Christ in the New Jerusalem forever.

"27 But there shall by no means enter it (New Jerusalem) anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." (Rev.21:27).

This is the case for all born-again Christians, who are all in the body of Christ; in a spiritual, positional, and relational sense now while living as humans on earth; and it is realized in its fullest sense when believers die in this life. All reprobate non-believers throughout human history do not have their names written in the Book of Life. When they die, they are sentenced to eternal condemnation in the Lake of Fire in the unseen realm.

"15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev.20:15).

God has shown us historical examples when His judgments have been established for everyone, including those who had not yet even lived. Example: The first man, Adam, sinned and sin passed to all men throughout human history.

"12 Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned." (Rom.5:12).

Example: The Lord was crucified, buried, rose again, and ascended into the heavenly holy of holies, all in 30ad. He provided an eternal atonement for the sins of all of His elect (past, present, and future).

"24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us." (Heb.9:24).

"but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." (Heb.9:26b).

Example: Christ’s second coming Parousia in 66-70ad brought consummation of salvation for all of His elect (past, present, and future).

"28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those (first century saints) who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation." (Heb.9:28).

The first tabernacle had to be destroyed in order for His elect to finally be able to actually enter the Holiest of All presence of God in heaven. Christ accomplished this as part of His final judgments with the total destruction of the temple in His outpouring of wrath against non-believing Israel by the Roman armies in 70ad.

"8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing." (Heb.9:8).



In summary, we see that Christ’s judgments for all mankind were finished in the first century generation of His Apostles in 70ad. At that time the Lord said that the final determination of the eternal status of "unjust and filthy" or "righteous and holy" for everyone was established.

"10 And he said to me, ‘Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.’" (Rev.22:10-11).

Michael Alan Nichols
 
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Is it your belief that the gathering of 1st Thess. chapters 4 and 5 has also, already occurred?


Yes, both of these Thess chapters tie into the Olivet Discourse.
 
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So am I now living in the New Jerusalem that has come down from heaven in the New Heavens and the New Earth?

.


Yes, of course, the New Heavens and New Earth is only mentioned four times in the whole Bible, Isaiah 65-66, 2 Peter 3, and Revelation 21. Nowhere else is there any mention of a New Heavens and New Earth, and as you know, the New Jerusalem occupies said New Heavens and New Earth see Isaiah 65:18-19 & Revelation 21:1-2.

Read Isaiah 65:17-24 & 66:19-24 (there is still death, there is still procreation, there is still aging, there is still construction and agriculture);

2 Peter 3:1-14 (this was a first century event see verse 14 and please note there is no mention of a Rapture or Millennium in this whole passage, yet Peter tells his first century audience they look forward to the Heavens and Earth passing with a fervent heat if it is over 1,000 years after the Great Tribulation and immediately after the Millennium);

Revelation 21:1- 7 (please see Ezekiel 37:24-28 & 2 Corinthians 6:16 & 1 Peter 2:5 - the temple / Jerusalem is the church, it is within the believers themselves),

22-27 (please see Isaiah 60:5,11 - the gates of heaven remain open and never cease receiving new souls),

Revelation 21:27 & 22:2, 15 (if there is literally a New Heavens and New Earth, a perfect restored paradise, why do the nations still require healing 22:2 and why are there still sinners lurking outside the gates of New Jerusalem 21:27 & 22:15?)
 
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Well I have seen a bunch of interpretive theory .... but the idea that humans are living on a renewed earth in a renovated universe is about as far as one can run from the truth

.... not to mention the other stuff I just read above

Some people get a few things, but completely warp many others

We are living in the days of total confusion with regard for the complete and correct rendering Lord's Word .... a total free fall from what He has communicated
 
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