Red Flags? Can I do anything?

SnowyMacie

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It is my job to know things. :cool:



Actually, I did a google search to see if I could find out more about the group you were talking about. :)

what did you google? I don't have my specific city mentioned anywhere....
 
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Sieben

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I would really like to see a thread where you explain this.... :sorry:

Well I have made posts in other forums about it, I could try to find a link. I usually am in the theology or unorthodox forums tbh


http://www.christianforums.com/t7606330/#post58968407
http://www.christianforums.com/t7603639/#post58880397
http://www.christianforums.com/t7609673-2/#post59209078

Theres a couple, not sure if I went over it extensively but yeah.
Note that I am never in no way ever talking about the water baptism a believer would receive, but the baptism Christ got himself. People constantly always confuse the two. But you should get a better understand of why I said the things I said
 
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sundewgrower

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Legalism is a red flag. People who voice their opinions all the time, that want to find people to "help", and seek those who are "weaker" that they can "instruct". Had my fill of those people..
Also, churches that don't grow are big red flags.
 
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K9_Trainer

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Honestly, I've had very few experiences with religious groups that didn't share most of the characteristics you just described. At least to some degree. The mormons have been the worst about harassing me and not taking no for an answer. To me, that's just typical religion.

It could be I'm more sensitive to it being a non-christian. I mean, if people claim that even small differences in theological view points means that one person is a true believer and the other isn't, then of course they're going to have issues with me being atheist/pantheist. But even as a pantheist, I feel like we can still find things in common with one another spiritually if we give each other a chance.
 
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It could be I'm more sensitive to it being a non-christian. I mean, if people claim that even small differences in theological view points means that one person is a true believer and the other isn't, then of course they're going to have issues with me being atheist/pantheist. But even as a pantheist, I feel like we can still find things in common with one another spiritually if we give each other a chance.

Identifying as an atheist/pantheist is not nearly as confronting to most Christians from a theological point of view because people with your views may be summarily categorized as non Christian without doubt. It's the people within the fold who hold differing beliefs that have many people pointing fingers, muttering or thinking to themselves "not a true believer" - as if Jesus led them to a truth different from theirs.
 
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anewman1993

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1) The main church is nothing like the college ministry. The church very much promotes unity among churches and going out, while the college ministry basically thinks that they're the only right ones and everyone should join them. The college pastor actually said this in a lesson "What I am saying right because this is what the Bible says. It doesn't matter what any other pastor has ever told you because they're not true followers"


It depends on what they are saying. There are a LOT of churches who say a LOT of wrong things, and the correct answer to those wrong things is "this is what the bible says, it doesn't matter what any other pastor ever told you"

2) They believe that if you do not share their viewpoint on everything, you are not a real follower, therefore you might as well be just be an admitting non-believe because that would be better.


thats bad. From this and other things you said, it seems like they are pushing extremes (and not in a good way). While there are something you HAVE to believe to be a christian (Jesus is God, God is Good, Jesus is the only way to heaven, He died and was resurrected, ect.) and if you don't then you ARN'T a christian no matter how much you say your are. However I suspect from what it sounds like they are probably not talking about issues like that, but music style, dress style, ect. right?

3) They present themselves as "holier-than-thou" and then tell each other how the prayed for a random person or witnessed to this person. Not that there's anything wrong with those things, I don't think scripture says boast and brag about it.


This is a problem to some degree in almost every church. But yea, I know what you mean. Thing is, this has been a problem for a LONG time, the bible even touches on it, though in their case it was more spiritual gifts than talking about how they witnessed to someone or something.

4) They do not take no as an answer. If they ask you to church or one of their small groups, and you say no. They will ask you again, and again, and again, you get the point, until you say yes.


Thats probable a good (but annoying) trait. Its all about context and how they do it though.

5) There's this weird hierarchy thing going on. On top you have Jeremy and Keith (the two college pastors). Then you have the section leaders, each section has several small groups in them (called Life Groups). I know a lot churches are set up this way, but you can't just start a life group without permission of our section leader and you must go through training to be a leader if they want you to (they pick and choose who). Also, they have discipleship groups, which are more informal but can't just be people one has to be a group leader.


This is completely normal. Truth be told I would be really uncomfortable with a church or group that DIDN'T have this. They have to be trained that way no weird theology gets started. Unfortunately though it can lead to a sort of "inbreeding" of ideologies at times and can be bad, however that doesn't mean its not necessary. As far as starting a life group or something, they can't FORCE you to not have a bible study yourself, worst case scenario is they kick you out, which they won't do, because if your kicked out for starting a bible study it looks BAD.

I was apart of this group, I left because God told me to leave. It was spiritually damaging for me to be there. I noticed that when I started sharing my more liberal viewpoints, there was this growing distance between us.


I say this without knowing the views you hold, but it very well may be that your views are wrong. I always cringe when I hear the words "Liberal" used to describe anything christian, though I'm sure someone would describe a few of mine that way. The gospel isn't very "liberal" in the American sense of "liberal". Its not "conservative" in the American sense of "conservative" either. I don't know your views, but I'm just saying its always a possibility that you (or I) am in the wrong.

-----------------------------------------------------

One thing I will say, we need to be less afraid of "looking like a cult". Because lets be REALLY real, the bible is REALLY cultish by our standards of cultish. The old testament had them cutting up animals on an alter, spraying blood on stuff, and doing weird rituals. Thats the same god we worship god didn't change, his METHODS haven't changed either, we just have a better way now that jesus has come. If you look at the new testament church, well, look at it this way. They lived as a community, shared everything, many sold everything they had and GAVE THE MONEY TO THE CHURCH LEADERS, there was as a clear sense of hierarchy, many people (not just the leaders) were getting revelations from god and prophesy.

THAT SOUNDS LIKE A CULT. In fact, from my understanding, early Christianity was viewed as a cult by the Jewish people at the time.

We shouldn't be afraid of having some slight similarity to a cult. Though obviously we shouldn't BE a cult.
 
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anewman1993

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Legalism is a red flag. People who voice their opinions all the time, that want to find people to "help", and seek those who are "weaker" that they can "instruct". Had my fill of those people..
Also, churches that don't grow are big red flags.


Legalism is bad, however if a church DOESN'T have people who want to help and instruct those who are weaker in the faith, have less knowledge, are newer, ect. Then its simply a bad church.

Church growth is irrelevant. Christ would much of the time be left with very little people when he was done preaching, sometimes it was just the guys he brought with him. People don't like the gosple, some people will choose not to follow jesus, jesus didn't try to keep them around, but let them leave.
 
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SnowyMacie

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This was almost four years ago I left, but I'll try to remember

It depends on what they are saying. There are a LOT of churches who say a LOT of wrong things, and the correct answer to those wrong things is "this is what the bible says, it doesn't matter what any other pastor ever told you"

Right, but they were saying "What we are saying is right." They were using the Bible to back it of course, what Christian group doesn't? They were thoroughly convinced that they and only they were right, even though they really didn't believe anything different than most people. I'll touch on this in a second...


thats bad. From this and other things you said, it seems like they are pushing extremes (and not in a good way). While there are something you HAVE to believe to be a christian (Jesus is God, God is Good, Jesus is the only way to heaven, He died and was resurrected, ect.) and if you don't then you ARN'T a christian no matter how much you say your are. However I suspect from what it sounds like they are probably not talking about issues like that, but music style, dress style, ect. right?

No actually. To this day, after much thinking and retrospection, I have yet to find the difference between their idea of Christianity and well Christianity. (here's what I mean by not that different) The only difference I really found is that they worded the minor things differently, but even after it was discovered we worded things different, it didn't matter. It was still strange because they would evangelize to Christians. For example, I went to a Christian university (the only two universities in town where), and one of them posted "Come to the field by the library as 6 to hear the best news ever! There will be ice cream", implying that nobody had heard it. Our city library was in the middle of downtown, so I assumed it was ours. I thought "You mean the news that everyone on our campus has heard and the vast majority believe?"



This is a problem to some degree in almost every church. But yea, I know what you mean. Thing is, this has been a problem for a LONG time, the bible even touches on it, though in their case it was more spiritual gifts than talking about how they witnessed to someone or something.

Yup.

Thats probable a good (but annoying) trait. Its all about context and how they do it though.

Here's what I mean by they don't take no for an answer, it also goes with something else I didn't push about they basically ask for a full commitment from you. They go on a Spring Break mission trip every single year, and my freshman year I was planning on going on another mission trip though my university. However, my life group leader would not take no for an answer, even offering to pay for me to go. After I said it's not about the money, he persistently asked and pleaded that I would have a better time on theirs. He only stopped when I said down with him privately and firmly explained how I had already made up my mind for this Spring break, but next one is still open for planning.
 
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morningstar2651

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I know that sounds rather weird, but I'm a little concerned for a college ministry here in my city. I have a number of friends apart of this group, and well, I often wonder if they are slowly slipping into cultism and even if they aren't, they get pretty out of line and consider it correct to do so. I'm just curios if any of these raise "Red flags" with y'all...
It does raise a couple flags, but not many. It sounds like just about any other Christian congregation to me.

Recognizing the danger any religious organization poses its members means looking at what makes it dangerous. The ABCDEF does a good job of enumerating what to look for to identify a dangerous group.
 
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sundewgrower

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Legalism is bad, however if a church DOESN'T have people who want to help and instruct those who are weaker in the faith, have less knowledge, are newer, ect. Then its simply a bad church.

Church growth is irrelevant. Christ would much of the time be left with very little people when he was done preaching, sometimes it was just the guys he brought with him. People don't like the gosple, some people will choose not to follow jesus, jesus didn't try to keep them around, but let them leave.
I totally agree with you on how a church needs people to help others.
But the ones I cam across almost prey on those weaker, control them, and force them to adopt their legalistic style of living.

What I mean by growth, is that if you're going to a church it's a good sign to see it grow, and not be totally stagnant. One church I sadly ended up in, didn't grow, was stagnant, and turned out to be a very tight clique. I could go on about the church, but there are signs to show where it's at, and unfortunately it took a few years for my family & I to get it.. It just seems you have to be careful and look at it from all angles. Since some churches might appear to be healthy, just like some people, but in the end aren't.
 
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Gnarwhal

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Legalism is a red flag. People who voice their opinions all the time, that want to find people to "help", and seek those who are "weaker" that they can "instruct". Had my fill of those people..
Also, churches that don't grow are big red flags.

I can't say I've met too many Christians who wanted to help me.
 
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miss-a

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I know that sounds rather weird, but I'm a little concerned for a college ministry here in my city. I have a number of friends apart of this group, and well, I often wonder if they are slowly slipping into cultism and even if they aren't, they get pretty out of line and consider it correct to do so. I'm just curios if any of these raise "Red flags" with y'all...

A few things I strange things I have noticed:

1) The main church is nothing like the college ministry. The church very much promotes unity among churches and going out, while the college ministry basically thinks that they're the only right ones and everyone should join them. The college pastor actually said this in a lesson "What I am saying right because this is what the Bible says. It doesn't matter what any other pastor has ever told you because they're not true followers"

2) They believe that if you do not share their viewpoint on everything, you are not a real follower, therefore you might as well be just be an admitting non-believe because that would be better.

3) They present themselves as "holier-than-thou" and then tell each other how the prayed for a random person or witnessed to this person. Not that there's anything wrong with those things, I don't think scripture says boast and brag about it.

4) They do not take no as an answer. If they ask you to church or one of their small groups, and you say no. They will ask you again, and again, and again, you get the point, until you say yes.

5) There's this weird hierarchy thing going on. On top you have Jeremy and Keith (the two college pastors). Then you have the section leaders, each section has several small groups in them (called Life Groups). I know a lot churches are set up this way, but you can't just start a life group without permission of our section leader and you must go through training to be a leader if they want you to (they pick and choose who). Also, they have discipleship groups, which are more informal but can't just be people one has to be a group leader.

I was apart of this group, I left because God told me to leave. It was spiritually damaging for me to be there. I noticed that when I started sharing my more liberal viewpoints, there was this growing distance between us. I finally sat down and told two of them (who I was grown closest two) that it had become spiritually damaging for me to be there, and my relationship with God was better apart from them. They understood and asked me to share it with the rest. I agreed. That was two months ago, I've asked several times to be able to do this and they either say: not now or just ignore the question and not answer back. I also have met a few people that go to the church and told me that they would never join the college ministry.

I don't know if I'm reading into things too much, I sometimes can do that. I am concerned as a friend that they are slowly walking into dangerous territory. Does any of this signal red flags to anyone else?

I'm totally flagging on all the points you mentioned. I'm glad you listened to the Lord and got out!
 
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