A glimpse at our Eastern & Western Christian Churches

[JoyAlton]

Here's a small glimpse video discussion (between Justin Hibbard {Protestant convert to Roman Catholicism} and father deacon Anthony Dragani {convert from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Ukrainian Catholicism} ) about the Eastern and Western Churches. Anthony's church is one of the 23 Eastern Catholic churches (his being Byzantine Rite started by the Apostle James as I understand it) & the only Western Catholic Church (Roman or Latin Rite started by the Apostles Peter and Paul). The Orthodox churches (which I dearly love) are also touched on. If you want to skip the intro, begin at timestamp 08:50-20:00. There is a lot more to cover on this topic but you will get a small glimpse of the history. The Eastern Catholic Churches broke from our Orthodox brethren to return to unity with Rome, many of them since the 1054 Schism as I understand it. Enjoy...

 

[The Liturgist]

Here's a small glimpse video discussion (between Justin Hibbard {Protestant convert to Roman Catholicism} and father deacon Anthony Dragani {convert from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Ukrainian Catholicism} ) about the Eastern and Western Churches. Anthony's church is one of the 23 Eastern Catholic churches (his being Byzantine Rite started by the Apostle James as I understand it) & the only Western Catholic Church (Roman or Latin Rite started by the Apostles Peter and Paul). The Orthodox churches (which I dearly love) are also touched on. If you want to skip the intro, begin at timestamp 08:50-20:00. There is a lot more to cover on this topic but you will get a small glimpse of the history. The Eastern Catholic Churches broke from our Orthodox brethren to return to unity with Rome, many of them since the 1054 Schism as I understand it. Enjoy...

Very nice. I think every Western Christian on CF.com needs to learn more about Eastern Christianity, including Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy and the Assyrian Church of the East, and also the sui juris Eastern Rite Catholic Churches (which used to be called Uniates, but this word has become offensive to Eastern Catholics and inaccurate in the case of Maronites or Italo-Albanian Greek Catholics, or Hungarian Greek Catholics, among others).

 

[JoyAlton]

Very nice. I think every Western Christian on CF.com needs to learn more about Eastern Christianity, including Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy and the Assyrian Church of the East, and also the sui juris Eastern Rite Catholic Churches (which used to be called Uniates, but this word has become offensive to Eastern Catholics and inaccurate in the case of Maronites or Italo-Albanian Greek Catholics, or Hungarian Greek Catholics, among others).

Your response brought to mind something I heard recently that I had never considered in any practical way. We Westerners readily understand that we were heavily influenced by the Protestant Reformation. We know the Eastern Christians (ie. Eastern Catholics and Orthodox) were spared the difficulties brought about by the Reformation. What I had never considered before is how, in a similar way, Western Christianity was spared the difficulties brought about by Islam whereas, Eastern Christians have suffered, not only competition, but severe and prolonged persecutions.

 

[JoyAlton]

Very nice. I think every Western Christian on CF.com needs to learn more about Eastern Christianity, including Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy and the Assyrian Church of the East, and also the sui juris Eastern Rite Catholic Churches (which used to be called Uniates, but this word has become offensive to Eastern Catholics and inaccurate in the case of Maronites or Italo-Albanian Greek Catholics, or Hungarian Greek Catholics, among others).

Oh, I forgot to include the severe persecutions Eastern Christians have also suffered under Communism.

 

[cradleGO]

Here's a small glimpse video discussion (between Justin Hibbard {Protestant convert to Roman Catholicism} and father deacon Anthony Dragani {convert from Roman Catholicism to Eastern Ukrainian Catholicism} ) about the Eastern and Western Churches. Anthony's church is one of the 23 Eastern Catholic churches (his being Byzantine Rite started by the Apostle James as I understand it) & the only Western Catholic Church (Roman or Latin Rite started by the Apostles Peter and Paul). The Orthodox churches (which I dearly love) are also touched on. If you want to skip the intro, begin at timestamp 08:50-20:00. There is a lot more to cover on this topic but you will get a small glimpse of the history. The Eastern Catholic Churches broke from our Orthodox brethren to return to unity with Rome, many of them since the 1054 Schism as I understand it. Enjoy...

The Greek Catholic Church (Byzantine Rite) in Ukraine transferred to Rome based on the Moscow Orthodox interfering with the Kyiv Metropolitanate (Orthodox) - the true See to which they had been under. Moscow didn't fully complete the takeover for another 100 or so years, but the decision to come under Rome was not a great love of the Pontiff but the love of independence and their Ukrainian identity. (Plus, Kyiv is the mother church of Moscow. Not the other way 'round. Galling!)

Now the Kyiv Metropolitanate has been restored, and is in fact an autocephalous (self-governing) church in Orthodoxy. The Orthodox Primate and the Greek Catholic Patriarch (Archbishop) are on good terms. What may be interesting is when the Russians are defeated, will the Greek Catholics choose to come home to the Kyiv Metropolitanate? Now the Kyiv Church has its own issues within Orthodoxy in that Moscow stirs up the several Orthodoxy Sees preventing recognition of its status by all. But history shows, that will be worked out. But, perhaps before then, there may be movement of the Greek Catholics. Stay tuned.

 

[cradleGO]

Your response brought to mind something I heard recently that I had never considered in any practical way. We Westerners readily understand that we were heavily influenced by the Protestant Reformation. We know the Eastern Christians (ie. Eastern Catholics and Orthodox) were spared the difficulties brought about by the Reformation. What I had never considered before is how, in a similar way, Western Christianity was spared the difficulties brought about by Islam whereas, Eastern Christians have suffered, not only competition, but severe and prolonged persecutions.

The Orthodox were influenced by the Muslims in a big way in that Islam was the hidden factor for the iconoclast controversy. Some saw the supposed simplicity of Islam and asked why are the Churches filled with these images? And there has been flirting with protestant views within Orthodoxy.

Complicating the matter is that Orthodoxy sees the Holy Spirit working within the world. It even investigated Mormonism. And yes, communism was a great test. The effects still linger especially in the Moscow church, but more of an ethnic supremacy (Russkie Mir) and a subservience to the state.

 

[Andrewn]

Complicating the matter is that Orthodoxy sees the Holy Spirit working within the world. It even investigated Mormonism.

What do you mean? I can probably guess, but better hear it from you.

 

[The Liturgist]

What do you mean? I can probably guess, but better hear it from you.

I have no idea what is meant by “Orthodoxy investigated Mormonism”, since the extent of Mormon-Orthodox contact has been very low. But at least they haven’t violently oppressed the Orthodox like the Muslims or the Communists.

 

[cradleGO]

What do you mean? I can probably guess, but better hear it from you.

Only that they looked into it. I'm sure they didn't proceed any further once they were told the Mormon's view of the Virgin Mary. The main point is that the Orthodox see the Holy Spirit in this world.

In response to The Liturgist's comment, I doubt there could ever be a dialogue with the Mormons. The 19th century brought forth many weird cults and cult beliefs. Satan was very busy. Also early 20th century. No branch of Christianity was immune.

 

[The Liturgist]

In response to The Liturgist's comment, I doubt there could ever be a dialogue with the Mormons. The 19th century brought forth many weird cults and cult beliefs.

Indeed, I do hope my post did not suggest otherwise. Mormonism is one of the most perverse cults that preys upon would be Christians. It has aspects of Tritheism, Henotheism, Polytheism and a number of other bad things.

Mormons also seem to get disproportionately involved in child abuse and other criminality.

However unlike a lot of other religions, the Mormons have not persecuted the Orthodox, violently at least. I seem to get on well with Mormons.

 

[Andrewn]

The main point is that the Orthodox see the Holy Spirit in this world.

This point is of interest to me. The Church Father Origen considered the Holy Spirit to be present only in Christians, and almost all Christians have a similar view. But the Lord said,

"The Spirit blows where it chooses,
and you hear the sound of it,
but you do not know where it comes from
or where it goes.
So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
(Joh 3:8).

I changed "wind" into "Spirit," the same Greek word. I know this verse is a favorite one among the EO.

 

[Nagomirov]

Вот небольшая видеодискуссия (между Джастином Хиббардом {протестант, обращенный в римский католицизм} и отцом-диаконом Антонием Драгани {переходящий из римо-католицизма в восточно-украинский католицизм}) о Восточной и Западной Церквях. Церковь Антония является одной из 23 восточных католических церквей (византийский обряд, основанный апостолом Иаковом, как я понимаю) и единственной западной католической церковью (римский или латинский обряд, основанный апостолами Петром и Павлом). Затронуты и православные храмы (которые я очень люблю). Если вы хотите пропустить вступление, начните с метки времени 08:50-20:00. На эту тему можно рассказать еще многое, но вы получите небольшое представление об истории. Восточные Католические Церкви отделились от наших православных братьев, чтобы вернуться к единству с Римом, многие из них после раскола 1054 года, как я понимаю. Наслаждаться...

 

[Nagomirov]

Греко-католическая церковь (византийского обряда) в Украине перешла в Рим на основании вмешательства Московской православной митрополии (православной) - истинного престола, которому они подчинялись. Москва не завершила полностью захват в течение следующих 100 лет или около того, но решение перейти под власть Рима было не большой любовью понтифика, а любовью к независимости и украинской идентичности. (Кроме того, Киев является церковью-матерью Москвы. А не наоборот. Галлинг!)

Сейчас Киевская митрополия восстановлена, и фактически является автокефальной (самоуправляемой) церковью в Православии. Православный Предстоятель и Греко-Католический Патриарх (Архиепископ) находятся в хороших отношениях. Что может быть интересно, так это то, когда русские потерпят поражение, захотят ли греко-католики вернуться домой в Киевскую митрополию? Сейчас у Киевской Церкви есть свои проблемы внутри Православия, связанные с тем, что Москва разжигает несколько православных кафедр, препятствуя признанию ее статуса всеми. Но история показывает, что это получится. Но, возможно, до этого произойдет движение греко-католиков. Следите за новостями.

Нет, неверно. На Украине были православные братства, они были в юрисдикции Константинопольского патриархата. Городские общины Украины, группировались вот в эти самые церковные братства. Наиболее влиятельными были львовское братство в Галиции, виленское в Литве и богоявленское в Киеве. Братства принимали участие в выборе епископов и митрополитов, следили за управлением церковным имуществом, протестовали против злоупотреблений епископов и вообще лиц духовных, защищали интересы Церкви перед властью и т.. Епископы и лица духовные тяготились вмешательством братств в церковные дела. У некоторых епископов было желание отделаться от нежеланной опеки; это вызывало на борьбу с братствами и впоследствии даже побуждало к переходу в унию. В этих условиях группа представителей высшей православной иерархии начала склоняться к мысли о целесообразности унии с римо-католиками. В основе таких настроений лежали и личные интересы духовенства (желание сберечь собственные земельные владения и сравняться в политических правах с католическим духовенством), и стремление владык вывести Церковь из кризиса. Тайное обсуждение этих планов продолжалось несколько лет. Когда же они стали известны православной общественности, против них, помимо князя Острожского, выступило мелкое западнорусское дворянство, православный клир среднего звена, мещанство, а также новое сословие — казачество. Но повторюсь, что православные братства находились под юрисдикцией Константинопольского патриарха.

 

[Nagomirov]

Православные находились под сильным влиянием мусульман в том смысле, что ислам был скрытым фактором для иконоборческих споров. Некоторые видели мнимую простоту ислама и спрашивали, почему Церкви наполнены этими изображениями? Кроме того, в Православии происходит заигрывание с протестантскими взглядами.

Дело осложняется тем, что Православие видит Святого Духа, действующего в мире. Она даже исследовала мормонизм. И да, коммунизм был большим испытанием. Последствия все еще ощущаются, особенно в московской церкви, но в большей степени это этническое превосходство (Русский мир) и подчинение государству.

Копты живут в самой гуще мусульман, и копты богаты иконами. Посмотрите сколько много икон у коптов, как богата их иконографическая культура.

 

[mindlight]

This point is of interest to me. The Church Father Origen considered the Holy Spirit to be present only in Christians, and almost all Christians have a similar view. But the Lord said,

"The Spirit blows where it chooses,
and you hear the sound of it,
but you do not know where it comes from
or where it goes.
So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
(Joh 3:8).

I changed "wind" into "Spirit," the same Greek word. I know this verse is a favorite one among the EO.

This thread prompted me to consider the differences between the churches of the old Greco-Roman world in which the state was enlisted in the service of the church and the churches of Asia where that never really happened. Orthodoxy and Catholicism are both European creations and were able to defeat Islam via the Byzantines and eventually the Russians in the East and the Franks in the West. But after the great Mongols and the fall of the Russian Tsars, no such defender of the church or freedom of religion existed in the East.

So Joh 3:8 is a perfect description of the scattered lights of the church in the East, occasionally elevated into the prominence of a government position or a great personality but mainly concealed in the shadows, fearful of persecution and indeed Tamerlane-style annihilation but always governed and sustained by the unpredictable Holy Spirit.

 

[The Liturgist]

The Greek Catholic Church (Byzantine Rite) in Ukraine transferred to Rome based on the Moscow Orthodox interfering with the Kyiv Metropolitanate (Orthodox)

That’s categorically untrue. The reason why the Ukrainian Greek Catholics were subordinated to Rome was due to the military annexation of Western Ukraine in the formation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

 

[The Liturgist]

Only that they looked into it. I'm sure they didn't proceed any further once they were told the Mormon's view of the Virgin Mary. The main point is that the Orthodox see the Holy Spirit in this world.

We don’t see it in Mormonism or other heretical religions; the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with these, which are of a demonic nature.

I think due to certain inaccuracies being stated in this thread about Orthodoxy, which to my chagrin I did not notice when reading the thread previously, I had better loop my pious Eastern Orthodox friends @prodromos and @FenderTL5 into this conversation, along with my pious Oriental Orthodox friend @dzheremi , since @cradleGO is using the word “Orthodox” without qualifying it with “Eastern” or “Oriental” and I would hate for people to make assumptions about Oriental Orthodoxy based on what might be an unusual minority opinion among some Greek Orthodox of the Ecumenical Patriarchate (the EP also frustratingly one of the local churches of the Eastern Orthodox communion with a more regressive attitude to the Oriental Orthodox, but the real problem with the EP is the Archbishop of North America and his offensive and entirely incorrect assertions, made when he was Metropolitan of Bursa, that the EP was primus sine paribus rather than primus inter pares and among other disturbing details, had the power to revoke autocephaly. One nice thing about the OO communion is that, in addition to having never had a church fall under the control of iconoclasts, which did happen to Constantinople, it is also devoid of any figure who might claim to be primus sine paribus or even primus inter pares of the entire communion.

 

[The Liturgist]

This thread prompted me to consider the differences between the churches of the old Greco-Roman world in which the state was enlisted in the service of the church and the churches of Asia where that never really happened. Orthodoxy and Catholicism are both European creations and were able to defeat Islam via the Byzantines and eventually the Russians in the East and the Franks in the West. But after the great Mongols and the fall of the Russian Tsars, no such defender of the church or freedom of religion existed in the East.

So Joh 3:8 is a perfect description of the scattered lights of the church in the East, occasionally elevated into the prominence of a government position or a great personality but mainly concealed in the shadows, fearful of persecution and indeed Tamerlane-style annihilation but always governed and sustained by the unpredictable Holy Spirit.

This is categorically inaccurate. The Russians were never defeated by the Byzantines but rather converted to Orthodoxy of their own volition. And unfortunately, the Byzantines were never able to defeat Islam, merely restrain it.

What is more, of the Asian churches continually persecuted by Islam, which have never been associated with state power, that accurately describes several of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, for example, the Syriac Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, and for most of their history, the Alexandrian Greek Orthodox, and also the Assyrian Church of the East / Ancient Church of the East, and, again, for much of its history, and for all of its history in some of its patriarchates, the Armenian Apostolic Church (which is Oriental Orthodox) and the Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem, and the Church of Sinai (which is an autonomous but not independent church, whose leader is appointed by the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, which at present consists mainly of St. Catharine’s Monastery, which has the most valuable collection of icons and also one of the most valuable libraries of any monastery in the world).

There are no other Asian churches which John 3:8 could be referring to, aside from these churches and Eastern Catholic offshoots of them (specifically the Melkite Catholics, Maronite Catholics, Armenian Catholics, Syriac Catholics, Coptic Catholics and Chaldean Catholics).

 

[The Liturgist]

This point is of interest to me. The Church Father Origen considered the Holy Spirit to be present only in Christians, and almost all Christians have a similar view. But the Lord said,

"The Spirit blows where it chooses,
and you hear the sound of it,
but you do not know where it comes from
or where it goes.
So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
(Joh 3:8).

I changed "wind" into "Spirit," the same Greek word. I know this verse is a favorite one among the EO.

Origen was correct insofar as the Holy Spirit only indwells in Christians. However, Orthodox hymnography does declare that the Holy Spirit is everywhere present and fills all things. And it is by the action of the Holy Spirit that people are moved to convert to the Christian faith.

However in the case of Mormonism, we are talking about a religion founded by a man who, if he was lucky, was possessed by a demon, since at least under such conditions he would not be personally responsible for founding such a heresy. However, there is much less evidence to suggest John Smith and other founders of Mormonism were demonaics than exists in the case of Muhammed, and even in his case it seems like he cooperated with a demon impersonating St. Gabriel the Archangel (or alternately just made up the experiences), rather than being entirely possessed, since usually people possessed by demons are not fully functional, and I am aware of no cases where the Orthodox Church officially believes that a victim of demonic possession founded a false religion (although there do seem to be cases where it is quite possible that certain figures from the history of false religions, such as certain oracles and people who enter into trances, are at least temporarily possessed, and are at any rate engaging in dangerous activity).

 

[The Liturgist]

Your response brought to mind something I heard recently that I had never considered in any practical way. We Westerners readily understand that we were heavily influenced by the Protestant Reformation. We know the Eastern Christians (ie. Eastern Catholics and Orthodox) were spared the difficulties brought about by the Reformation. What I had never considered before is how, in a similar way, Western Christianity was spared the difficulties brought about by Islam whereas, Eastern Christians have suffered, not only competition, but severe and prolonged persecutions.

Oh, I forgot to include the severe persecutions Eastern Christians have also suffered under Communism.

Indeed, these are very true and insightful observations on your part. That being said, I think the persecution we have suffered has strengthened us. The Eastern churches have an attitude towards persecution much like that of St. Ignatius after he was sentenced to be eaten by lions in the Coliseum unless he renounced Christianity. And he very happily went to receive the crown of martyrdom.

While obviously we would prefer, all other things, not to be killed, martyrdom is nonetheless a blessing in that it offers a guarantee of salvation, and not only that, but instant sainthood, for those who confess Christ before men, He confesses before the Father. It’s one of only a few ways whereby a human being can obtain true glory, by following in the example of Christ our True God.

Rather I think what we are more upset about is how in recent years in the Middle East we have been victims of ethnic cleansing, with our populations being decimated and in places like the Armenian lands conquered by Azerbaijan, every trace of our existence eradicated.