The End of Days

[trophy33]

Aside from the fact that we did already discuss this, (and that the answer has not changed since then)

Everyhing regarding law and sabbath was already discussed to exhaustion and nothing has changed since. However, new and new threads are created about it, for some reason.

even if your reading was correct, (which it is not), you still would not have justification for including yourself in the statement which you quote.

Your opinon.

Who says Paul is referring to the reader in that passage when he uses "we" and "our"? You wish to believe that: but are you indeed justified in assuming that much?

There is no caste system in Christianity.

 

[daq]

Nothing substantial here to react to.


I see nothing in this quote to prove your position or to disprove mine.


A lot of opinions.


Another opinion.


Another opinion.


Paul frequently uses generalization when talking to churches composed of both Jews and Gentiles.


Another opinion.

Everyhing regarding law and sabbath was already discussed to exhaustion and nothing has changed since. However, new and new threads are created about it, for some reason.


Your opinon.


There is no caste system in Christianity.

In other words all of your arguments just collapsed when compared to what the scripture actually teaches.

 

[daq]

Even though Torah has ended, it was not because of being violently destroyed or something like that. It simply grew old, obsolete. Its not in effect for the new creation.

This is a default claim to know what it means to be in the new creation by way of knowing what is and is not "in effect for the new creation". And because you made this claim I therefore quoted the Mark 9 passage, and explained the portions which I did from the quotes that are found in the Mark passage, (Isa 66:24 and Lev 2:13).

According to the Master this is how one may enter into the new creation:

Mark 9:43-49 KJV
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [Lev 2:13]

This has been explained from the Testimony before on multiple occasions, but for some reason no one ever seems to want to believe it. The problem for the non-believers is that they are not willing to understand and do what he says and are not willing to believe that the passages which he quotes still have any relevance because their pastors, preachers, and priests have taught them that they are now void. He quotes from both Isaiah 66:24 and from Leviticus 2:13, yes, Leviticus, the so-called "ceremonial law". Moreover, in addition to these difficulties, not many ever study the Septuagint. In the Septuagint the Isaiah passage is not dead bodies but rather limbs of the body, as if lopped or chopped off, just as the context within the Mark passage above is speaking about.

Isaiah 66:24 OG LXX
24 και εξελευσονται και οψονται τα κωλα [G2966 κωλον] των ανθρωπων των παραβεβηκοτων εν εμοι ο γαρ σκωληξ αυτων ου τελευτησει και το πυρ αυτων ου σβεσθησεται και εσονται εις ορασιν παση σαρκι

Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments
G2966 κῶλον kolon (kō'-lon) n.
a limb of the body (as if lopped).
[from the base of G2849]
KJV: carcase
Root(s): G2849

Carcases or carcasses is a little misleading in modern English: it's body parts or limbs of the body, as if having been chopped off, and this is exactly the context in which the Master himself uses and expounds the passage.

And this is your response to that post:

I see nothing in this quote to prove your position or to disprove mine.

You've chosen to ignore the background context in the passages which were quoted by the Master in the Mark passage, and in so doing you reveal that your default claim to know what it means to be in the new creation by way of knowing what is and what is not "in effect for the new creation", is proven to be inaccurate: the claim is nothing more than your own uninformed speculation concerning the new creation. Take a look at what Paul writes in one place concerning the new creation.

2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Moreover other translators render creation instead of creature:

2 Corinthians 5:17 HNV
17 Therefore if anyone is in Messiah, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.

But the primary point here with this new creature-creation statement concerning the believer is that the statement itself contains an almost identical match with the following highlighted portions, (in black), from the Apocalypse.

Revelation 21:1-5 KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Paul: "The old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new."
The Apocalypse: "for the former things are passed away...Behold, I make all things new."

And the Spirit of the prophecy, (of the Apocalypse), is the Testimony of the Meshiah, (Rev 19:10), and therefore we are come full circle right back to Mark 9:42-50 in this regard, the Testimony of the Meshiah, and he indeed quotes from another prophetic apocalyptic text: and not only that but the passage speaks of the new heavens and the new earth and worshiping in the Shabbat.

Isaiah 66:19-24 KJV
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; [Mark 9:42-50] and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

For example, your frequently used "the sabbath was made for man, not man for sabbath, therefore the Son of man is lord of the sabbath".

- the context is not some kind of universality of the commandment for all Gentiles, but the question of pharisees "why do your disciples break the sabbath?"

You simply take the dictionary meaning you like and ascribe a totally foreign context to it. This does not work.

No I take the meaning Jesus used which translates into mankind and human race, which I am one of, I can only speak for myself but I am assuming you are as well. In the Garden there was just man Gen 1:26 created in the image of God to follow Him. Hence why man came first then the Sabbath. Gen 2:1-3

anthrópos: a man, human, mankind
Original Word: ἄνθρωπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: anthrópos
Phonetic Spelling: (anth'-ro-pos)
Definition: a man, human, mankind
Usage: a man, one of the human race.

 

[trophy33]

This is a default claim to know what it means to be in the new creation by way of knowing what is and is not "in effect for the new creation". And because you made this claim I therefore quoted the Mark 9 passage, and explained the portions which I did from the quotes that are found in the Mark passage, (Isa 66:24 and Lev 2:13).



And this is your response to that post:



You've chosen to ignore the background context in the passages which were quoted by the Master in the Mark passage, and in so doing you reveal that your default claim to know what it means to be in the new creation by way of knowing what is and what is not "in effect for the new creation", is proven to be inaccurate: the claim is nothing more than your own uninformed speculation concerning the new creation. Take a look at what Paul writes in one place concerning the new creation.

2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Moreover other translators render creation instead of creature:

2 Corinthians 5:17 HNV
17 Therefore if anyone is in Messiah, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new.

But the primary point here with this new creature-creation statement concerning the believer is that the statement itself contains an almost identical match with the following highlighted portions, (in black), from the Apocalypse.

Revelation 21:1-5 KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Paul: "The old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new."
The Apocalypse: "for the former things are passed away...Behold, I make all things new."

And the Spirit of the prophecy, (of the Apocalypse), is the Testimony of the Meshiah, (Rev 19:10), and therefore we are come full circle right back to Mark 9:42-50 in this regard, the Testimony of the Meshiah, and he indeed quotes from another prophetic apocalyptic text: and not only that but the passage speaks of the new heavens and the new earth and worshiping in the Shabbat.

Isaiah 66:19-24 KJV
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; [Mark 9:42-50] and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Your posts are hard to read and hard to find what is the substance or your point, so I will leave it at that.

 

[trophy33]

No I take the meaning Jesus used which translates into mankind and human race, which I am one of, I can only speak for myself but I am assuming you are as well. In the Garden there was just man Gen 1:26 created in the image of God to follow Him. Hence why man came first then the Sabbath. Gen 2:1-3

anthrópos: a man, human, mankind
Original Word: ἄνθρωπος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: anthrópos
Phonetic Spelling: (anth'-ro-pos)
Definition: a man, human, mankind
Usage: a man, one of the human race.

Jesus did not speak Greek in this situation, its not the term He used. But this is just a factual error.

The point still stands - you ignore the context of the passage and apply dictionary instead. If I said "I know this man" and you selected the meaning of "humanity" from dictionary, it could fit your ideology, but not the context of my sentence. And thats what you are doing with Jesus' words.

You can also notice that no common biblical translation translates it as "mankind" or "human race", because its not the meaning there. You ignore that and go with your own "translation", which is not done well and does not fit the text at all.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus did not speak Greek in this situation, its not the term He used. But this is just a factual error.

The point still stands - you ignore the context of the passage and apply dictionary instead. If I said "I know this man" and you selected the meaning of "humanity" from dictionary, it could fit your ideology, but not the context of my sentence. And thats what you are doing with Jesus' words.

You can also notice that no common biblical translation translates it as "mankind" or "human race", because its not the meaning there. You ignore that and go with your own "translation", which is not done well and does not fit the text at all.

Jesus certainly did not use the word "Jew" and I trust the teachings of Jesus just they way they read, no need for our edits.

Take care.

 

[daq]

Your posts are hard to read and hard to find what is the substance or your point, so I will leave it at that.

What does that say for your theories?
Surely the scripture is more difficult to understand than my posts.

 

[trophy33]

Jesus certainly did not use the word "Jew" and I trust the teachings of Jesus just they way they read, no need for our edits.

Take care.

You just edited the text, putting "human race" there, where no other biblical translation does that.

Take care.

 

[trophy33]

Surely the scripture is more difficult to understand than my posts.

But you are not the scripture, you are a nickname on public forum, writing long posts, so I have no need to decipher them. Either be clear and concise or accept being ignored.

 

[Clare73]

In so many legalistic arguments you've turned the tables just like a lawyer.
Neither do any of your proof texts negate any part of the Torah.

Falls somewhat short of a Biblical demonstration of your assertion, leaving that assertion without Biblical merit.

In order to partake in this covenant one must either be of the olive tree of the all Yisrael of the Father or be grafted into it because this covenant is cut with the house of Yisrael and the house of Yhudah.
Hebrews 8:8 KJV
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
There is nothing in Hebrews 8 about Gentiles getting to remain as Gentiles forever.

There is no Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ.

That is the NT charter of God's one and only people.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You just edited the text, putting "human race" there, where no other biblical translation does that.

Take care.

No, I said man and showed you the definition of it in the Greek.

Which in the Hebrews means Adam [444 /ánthrōpos ("man") answers to the Hebrew term, ̓adam

What the Sabbath was made for man which was made first Gen 1:26 before the Sabbath Gen 2:1-3 Where there was no Jew or Greek, just man. God's perfect plan before sin.

Why the Sabbath is meant for everyone...thus saith the Lord.

56 Thus says the Lord:

“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant

Which is why God included: nor your stranger who is within your gates right in the commandment Exo 20:8-11

 

[daq]

But you are not the scripture, you are a nickname on public forum, writing long posts, so I have no need to decipher them. Either be clear and concise or accept being ignored.

It is not me but you who acts like you are the scripture: which is precisely why your proclamations keep getting refuted with scripture.

 

[daq]

Falls somewhat short of a Biblical demonstration of your assertion, leaving that assertion without Biblical merit.

There is no Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ.

That is the NT charter of God's one and only people.

So you only believe what you wish to believe and ignore the rest of scripture? Why did you find it inconvenient to reply to everything else that was in that post? Can you at least explain to us all how it is that you died for your own iniquity to enter into this new covenant as the Prophet says in what was quoted? Here it is again with a little more from before that statement, and the author of Hebrews is not a cherry picker: this is background context for what is written and quoted in Hebrews 8.

Jeremiah 31:26-31 KJV
26 Upon this I awaked, and beheld; and my sleep was sweet unto me.
27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Please explain how it is or was that you died for your own iniquity to enter into this new covenant you claim to have. If you do not carry out the Testimony of the Master, which is the will of the Father, then you will not understand.

 

[Clare73]

Falls somewhat short of a Biblical demonstration of your assertion, leaving that assertion without Biblical merit.

There is no Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ.

That is the NT charter of God's one and only people.

So you only believe what you wish to believe and ignore the rest of scripture? Why did you find it inconvenient to reply to everything else that was in that post? Can you at least explain to us all how it is that you died for your own iniquity to enter into this new covenant

When you explain the same regarding yourself. . .

The new covenant (Jer 31:31-34) is only with those in Jesus Christ (Lk 22:20, 1 Co 11:25).

 

[trophy33]

It is not me but you who acts like you are the scripture: which is precisely why your proclamations keep getting refuted with scripture.

My goodness. Why to even write posts like this, in adulthood.

I did not say you act like you are the scripture. I said you are not the scripture and therefore you cannot expect the same effort and time from me to decipher your posts.

I am not interested in diving into multiple vague points, multiple lines of reasoning and multiple opinions in one post. Present one argument, one point per post. And keep it clean/readable. Thats all.

 

[daq]

My goodness. Why to even write posts like this, in adulthood.

Are you not posting deflection and nonsense in this thread in your own version of what you consider adulthood?

 

[daq]

When you explain the same regarding yourself. . .

The new covenant (Jer 31:31-34) is only with those in Jesus Christ (Lk 22:20, 1 Co 11:25).

In being the operative word and one who does not do as he says cannot be his disciple as he says.

 

[trophy33]

Are you not posting deflection and nonsense in this thread

No, I am not.

 

[trophy33]

No, I said man and showed you the definition of it in the Greek.

Which in the Hebrews means Adam [444 /ánthrōpos ("man") answers to the Hebrew term, ̓adam

What the Sabbath was made for man which was made first Gen 1:26 before the Sabbath Gen 2:1-3 Where there was no Jew or Greek, just man. God's perfect plan before sin.

Why the Sabbath is meant for everyone...thus saith the Lord.

56 Thus says the Lord:

“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant

Which is why God included: nor your stranger who is within your gates right in the commandment Exo 20:8-11

If you simply went with the context of the verse, you would know what Jesus meant. You do not need to search dictionaries, you do not need to go to Genesis nor to Exodus.

The context was "why do your disciples do what is not allowed on sabbath". Translating his answer like "Because sabbath was made for all human race, not all human race for sabbath. Therefore the son of human race is Lord of sabbath" makes no sense.