Desperate manhunt for killer of 16 [ETA: 18] in Maine mass shooting as residents shelter in place

[Desk trauma]

The more people fear regulations the more that happens that is why same thing tends to happen when more restrictive gun laws are discussed.

This isn't my first, or fifteenth, mass shooting.

 

[dogs4thewin]

This isn't my first, or fifteenth, mass shooting.

so therefore it would seem to me that the way to keep the sells going up at least in the latter case is to not threaten people with more gun regulations.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Like I said, it's the attitude. If a guy demands money from you and he has a gun then you give it to him. Rummage around for your gun and he's going to shoot you. If he hasn't got a gun then you have two options. Give him your money or run away.

Best case scenario? You get out of breath and keep your money. Second best? You're short a few bucks. Third? You're dead, he's dead and a couple of innocent bystanders are dead.

My son in law used to manage a bar. Some moron with a gun tried to rob the place just before it closed. Extremely rare in Australia. What happened? My son in law gave him a chunk of money from the till and the guy left. Everyone got a couple of free drinks. The US version? Well, some 'good guy' who'd been drinking all evening thinks he'll be the hero, there are dead bodies everywhere and my daughter is a widow at 28.

Which version do you prefer?

The "false choice" that people present is that those scenarios are our only options.

As I've noted before, one doesn't have to choose between "Wild West" and a level of pacifism that dictates that that the "default response" to all aggression should just be roll over and take it, run, or hand over your stuff.

For instance, what would be wrong with a model like this?

Gun law in the Czech Republic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And it should be noted that while the Czech Republic allows for the purchasing of firearms for both conceal carry and home defense (and like the US, it's part of their constitution)...they've implemented some "upstream vetting" that's worked out pretty well that strikes a nice balance between the two extremes above.

The end result? They have a homicide rate of 0.7. (they're on par with the Scandinavian countries in that regard)

To put that in perspective? the UK has a 1.0.

And the data would suggest that by taking a "best of both world's approach", they've been able to tamp down the murder rate to the typical European standards, but without creating the "open season for the bad guys to step up their game" that I highlighted before with regards to other, non-homicide, crime data where the UK performs pretty poorly due to civilians not even being allowed to carry non-lethal self defense implements.

Czech vs. UK.

Actually, even when comparing to Australia, the Czech Republic performs pretty well.

Australia vs Czech Republic: Crime Facts and Stats

Murder rate per million people, Intentional homicide rate, Rape rate, Murder rate, Crime levels and 70 More Interesting Facts and Stats

www.nationmaster.com

 

[essentialsaltes]

Cops were sent to Maine gunman’s home weeks before massacres amid concern he ‘is going to snap and commit a mass shooting’​

Maine gunman’s family contacted police months before massacre, sheriff says​

Relatives, Army Reserve friends, told authorities Card was deteriorating mentally and had access to firearms. Sheriff deputies couldn’t locate him.​

In addition to his own relatives, law enforcement officials and government agencies also expressed anxiety about Robert Card and the possible risk he posed to others, long before police say Card gunned people down in a bowling alley and a bar Wednesday in Lewiston.

But even amid these repeated worries and warnings, law enforcement officials who just weeks before the shooting were tasked with checking on Card — a 40-year-old Army reservist from Bowdoin, Maine — were unable to find him, according to records made public Monday evening.

One attempt by Card to add to his arsenal was stymied. On Aug. 5, Card went to Coastal Defense Firearms, a large gun store near Lewiston, to pick up a silencer that he had purchased online, according to ABC News.

But when Card answered yes to a question asking if he had ever been “adjudicated as a mental defective” or “committed to a mental institution,” the store’s staff declined to give him the device

 

[dogs4thewin]

The "false choice" that people present is that those scenarios are our only options.

As I've noted before, one doesn't have to choose between "Wild West" and a level of pacifism that dictates that that the "default response" to all aggression should just be roll over and take it, run, or hand over your stuff.

For instance, what would be wrong with a model like this?

Gun law in the Czech Republic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And it should be noted that while the Czech Republic allows for the purchasing of firearms for both conceal carry and home defense (and like the US, it's part of their constitution)...they've implemented some "upstream vetting" that's worked out pretty well that strikes a nice balance between the two extremes above.

The end result? They have a homicide rate of 0.7. (they're on par with the Scandinavian countries in that regard)

To put that in perspective? the UK has a 1.0.

And the data would suggest that by taking a "best of both world's approach", they've been able to tamp down the murder rate to the typical European standards, but without creating the "open season for the bad guys to step up their game" that I highlighted before with regards to other, non-homicide, crime data where the UK performs pretty poorly due to civilians not even being allowed to carry non-lethal self defense implements.

Czech vs. UK.
View attachment 338720


Actually, even when comparing to Australia, the Czech Republic performs pretty well.

Australia vs Czech Republic: Crime Facts and Stats

Murder rate per million people, Intentional homicide rate, Rape rate, Murder rate, Crime levels and 70 More Interesting Facts and Stats

www.nationmaster.com

I think the problem is that many people do not trust the government to stop with reasonable stuff. Many people who do not want anything done may or may not actually not want anything done if only they could trust the government to stop. As you have pointed out those "reason regulations are much easier to have and trust for that matter when they begin early in the process as opposed to when there are literally 100sof MILLIONS of guns around.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Maine gunman’s family contacted police months before massacre, sheriff says​

Relatives, Army Reserve friends, told authorities Card was deteriorating mentally and had access to firearms. Sheriff deputies couldn’t locate him.​

In addition to his own relatives, law enforcement officials and government agencies also expressed anxiety about Robert Card and the possible risk he posed to others, long before police say Card gunned people down in a bowling alley and a bar Wednesday in Lewiston.

But even amid these repeated worries and warnings, law enforcement officials who just weeks before the shooting were tasked with checking on Card — a 40-year-old Army reservist from Bowdoin, Maine — were unable to find him, according to records made public Monday evening.

One attempt by Card to add to his arsenal was stymied. On Aug. 5, Card went to Coastal Defense Firearms, a large gun store near Lewiston, to pick up a silencer that he had purchased online, according to ABC News.

But when Card answered yes to a question asking if he had ever been “adjudicated as a mental defective” or “committed to a mental institution,” the store’s staff declined to give him the device

then does it not seem that those people dropped the ball that should be on those particular law enforcement officers then as it seems as if they are the reason the laws already in place ( not red flag laws, but laws concerning people being admitted to mental hospitals (particularly recently were not followed.

 

[essentialsaltes]

then does it not seem that those people dropped the ball that should be on those particular law enforcement officers then as it seems as if they are the reason the laws already in place ( not red flag laws, but laws concerning people being admitted to mental hospitals (particularly recently were not followed.

What do you think a red flag law is? Mental illness is a red flag. There has to be a red flag law that allows the authorities to act to remove weapons from someone. Maine's unique 'yellow flag' law did not apply to this case.

Even if state authorities had been given detailed information about his mental health crisis ... [Maine's] yellow flag law requires a person to be in protective custody in Maine and experiencing a mental health crisis for a police agency to begin the process.

 

[Bradskii]

The "false choice" that people present is that those scenarios are our only options.

I'm talking attitudes. Which precede options. Your attitudes to weapons are the problem.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I'm talking attitudes. Which precede options. Your attitudes to weapons are the problem.

If you're asking what my answer would be to the question on "weapons", I'd have to ask follow-up questions to be more specific.

"Weapons" covers a lot of territory.

Weapons can be useful in some situations (if they weren't, then I'd imagine there'd be no need to send a bunch of them to the Ukraine or let cops carry them)

Do I think everyone in the US is capable, sane, trained, and competent enough to own a high powered semi-automatic rifle? No.

Do I think people who are physically vulnerable should have access to some sort of defensive tool? Yes.


I can't speak for anyone else, but if my GF is walking to her car and some random guy decides he wants to "get a feel", I rather not have her only two choices be "well, I'll just stay calm and do what he wants, let him get a handful and maybe he won't go further than that and won't beat me" or "try something learned in a nonsensical women's self-defense class"


You may view that as a "problematic attitude" towards weapons.

But I see my position as an understanding of weapons in a practical sense.

You let too many people who have weapons (and heavy duty weapons), you end up with senseless murder, escalations of certain situations that wouldn't have normally escalated, etc...

You take them away from everyone, you're ceding a monopoly on violence to the biggest, strongest, and most aggressive males in a society.

Which is why when you go to places like the UK (or even Sydney Australia), you're far more likely to get sexually assaulted/raped as you are in in the US (even in bad cities like Detroit and St. Louis)

Stats for Aus:
Rape

Assault

Stat for UK:
Rape

Assault

...so it all depends on which on how many crime metrics (and which crime metrics) you're willing to sacrifice in order to say "at least there weren't any guns involved".


For me, personally, I still like the Czech Republic approach...let responsible, vetted, sane people have the option of getting some sort of equalizer vs. simply saying "Well, our rape rate is triple, our assault rate is double, and our car burglary rate is 4x...but hey, at least nobody had a Glock!"

 

[Bradskii]

Stats for Aus:
Rape
View attachment 338752

You want to quote stats my friend then a simple cut and paste simply doesn't cut and paste it. You need to show where you're getting your figures. Here's some for you:

Rape Statistics by Country 2023 - Wisevoter

Rape is a serious crime that affects millions of people around the globe. According to the World Health Organization (WHO), approximately 1 in 3 women will experience sexual violence in their lifetime, with 7% of those women having experienced rape or attempted rape. These statistics are deeply...

wisevoter.com

US 38.2
Aus 28.6

USA - reported forcible rape rate 2022 | Statista

In 2022, the rate of forcible rapes in the United States stood at 40 per 100,000 inhabitants.

www.statista.com

US 40.0

Rape statistics - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

US 27.3
Aus 28.6

Countries Compared by Crime > Rape rate. International Statistics at NationMaster.com

Number of rape incidents per 100,000 citizens in different countries. Figures do not take into account rape incidents that go unreported to the police.

www.nationmaster.com

As above

Rape Statistics By Country 2024

www.datapandas.org

As above

At the very least, the figures are similar, but a lot show the US to be much more dangerous by a significant margin. So I guess that argument fails spectacularly. Seems the guys with guns are a greater threat by far and having the ability to carry a gun as self defence is self defeating.

And how safe is a each country for women?

Most Dangerous Countries for Women 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

US Index 456
Aus Index 370

If you didn't know which country had those figures, where would you prefer your daughter's to live? In the one with the lower figure or the one with the higher?

And from here: Guns and Violence Against Women: America’s Uniquely Lethal Intimate Partner Violence Problem

'Abusers with firearms are five times more likely to kill their female victims, and guns further exacerbate the power and control dynamic commonly used by abusers to inflict emotional abuse and exert coercive control over their victims.'

Hey, maybe it looks like you haven't got enough guns...

 

[Bradskii]

so therefore it would seem to me that the way to keep the sells going up at least in the latter case is to not threaten people with more gun regulations.

It seems the best way to increase gun sales and to ensure push back against even the most basic solutions to a monstrous problem is to shoot a dozen or so random people in the head.

A classic argument isn't it. So many guns and so little restriction on carrying them in Maine and you still get 14 people massacred. So the solution is..? Yes, at the back? Correct! More guns! You win tonight's top prize. A brand new fully automatic assault rifle!

 

[dogs4thewin]

It seems the best way to increase gun sales and to ensure push back against even the most basic solutions to a monstrous problem is to shoot a dozen or so random people in the head.

A classic argument isn't it. So many guns and so little restriction on carrying them in Maine and you still get 14 people massacred. So the solution is..? Yes, at the back? Correct! More guns! You win tonight's top prize. A brand new fully automatic assault rifle!

If every time more regulations are discussed or there is a mass shooting gun sells go up then that tells me that when there is not such discussions then that tells me that gun sells are to a point tied to gun restrictions.

 

[Larniavc]

so therefore it would seem to me that the way to keep the sells going up at least in the latter case is to not threaten people with more gun regulations.

Or to facilitate the flow of guns into the hands of potential mass shooting enthusiasts.

 

[dogs4thewin]

You want to quote stats my friend then a simple cut and paste simply doesn't cut and paste it. You need to show where you're getting your figures. Here's some for you:

Rape Statistics by Country 2023 - Wisevoter

Rape is a serious crime that affects millions of people around the globe. According to the World Health Organization (WHO), approximately 1 in 3 women will experience sexual violence in their lifetime, with 7% of those women having experienced rape or attempted rape. These statistics are deeply...

wisevoter.com

US 38.2
Aus 28.6

USA - reported forcible rape rate 2022 | Statista

In 2022, the rate of forcible rapes in the United States stood at 40 per 100,000 inhabitants.

www.statista.com

US 40.0

Rape statistics - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

US 27.3
Aus 28.6

Countries Compared by Crime > Rape rate. International Statistics at NationMaster.com

Number of rape incidents per 100,000 citizens in different countries. Figures do not take into account rape incidents that go unreported to the police.

www.nationmaster.com

As above

Rape Statistics By Country 2024

www.datapandas.org

As above

At the very least, the figures are similar, but a lot show the US to be much more dangerous by a significant margin. So I guess that argument fails spectacularly. Seems the guys with guns are a greater threat by far and having the ability to carry a gun as self defence is self defeating.

And how safe is a each country for women?

Most Dangerous Countries for Women 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

US Index 456
Aus Index 370

If you didn't know which country had those figures, where would you prefer your daughter's to live? In the one with the lower figure or the one with the higher?

And from here: Guns and Violence Against Women: America’s Uniquely Lethal Intimate Partner Violence Problem

'Abusers with firearms are five times more likely to kill their female victims, and guns further exacerbate the power and control dynamic commonly used by abusers to inflict emotional abuse and exert coercive control over their victims.'

Hey, maybe it looks like you haven't got enough guns...

and women who meet the requirements to process a gun have just as much right as males and by the way they are the same requirements.

at least 21 ( usually) ( some states it is 18) hand guns are the guns we are talking about guns used in the most deaths. no felonies or certain other violent crimes on her record, not be addicted to drugs or alcohol, not have a serious mental health disorder or been committed to a mental health hospital, in some places there are time limits on that such as having not been committed in five years or not being involunily committed ( though I am fairly certain the federal government does not have those exceptions though the federal government is frankly unlikely to charge someone unless something like a mass shooting happens and even then they would likely only do it if certain other factors were present, not having been dishonorly discharged from the military, not being here illegally or even on most types of visas, not knowingly being on the run for a felony and not having renouced your citizenship ( I believe that covers most of the reasons oh and being subject to most protective orders. If a woman meets all those requirements she just like a man is entitled to own/process a firearm.


Many times long guns have an 18 age minimum, but again those are used in fewer deaths than the hand guns with the 21( in most states situations age minimum

 

[dogs4thewin]

Or to facilitate the flow of guns into the hands of potential mass shooting enthusiasts.

I can be a shooting or gun enthusiast and yet have not desire to use said guns in a violent way towards other human beings.

 

[Larniavc]

If you're asking what my answer would be to the question on "weapons", I'd have to ask follow-up questions to be more specific.

"Weapons" covers a lot of territory.

Weapons can be useful in some situations (if they weren't, then I'd imagine there'd be no need to send a bunch of them to the Ukraine or let cops carry them)

Do I think everyone in the US is capable, sane, trained, and competent enough to own a high powered semi-automatic rifle? No.

Do I think people who are physically vulnerable should have access to some sort of defensive tool? Yes.


I can't speak for anyone else, but if my GF is walking to her car and some random guy decides he wants to "get a feel", I rather not have her only two choices be "well, I'll just stay calm and do what he wants, let him get a handful and maybe he won't go further than that and won't beat me" or "try something learned in a nonsensical women's self-defense class"


You may view that as a "problematic attitude" towards weapons.

But I see my position as an understanding of weapons in a practical sense.

You let too many people who have weapons (and heavy duty weapons), you end up with senseless murder, escalations of certain situations that wouldn't have normally escalated, etc...

You take them away from everyone, you're ceding a monopoly on violence to the biggest, strongest, and most aggressive males in a society.

Which is why when you go to places like the UK (or even Sydney Australia), you're far more likely to get sexually assaulted/raped as you are in in the US (even in bad cities like Detroit and St. Louis)

Stats for Aus:
Rape
View attachment 338752
Assault
View attachment 338755

Stat for UK:
Rape
View attachment 338753
Assault
View attachment 338754


...so it all depends on which on how many crime metrics (and which crime metrics) you're willing to sacrifice in order to say "at least there weren't any guns involved".


For me, personally, I still like the Czech Republic approach...let responsible, vetted, sane people have the option of getting some sort of equalizer vs. simply saying "Well, our rape rate is triple, our assault rate is double, and our car burglary rate is 4x...but hey, at least nobody had a Glock!"

Those stats are very wrong.

 

[Larniavc]

I can be a shooting or gun enthusiast and yet have not desire to use said guns in a violent way towards other human beings.

Yeah, but you (as in any hypothetical gun owner) can more easily transition into a mass killing practitioner than a non gun owner.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Yeah, but you (as in any hypothetical gun owner) can more easily transition into a mass killing practitioner than a non gun owner.

yes, but just because someone could does not mean they will or have any desire to do so. I could do a LOT of things that does not mean I have the desire to do such things particularly when they harm others.

 

[Bradskii]

If every time more regulations are discussed or there is a mass shooting gun sells go up then that tells me that when there is not such discussions then that tells me that gun sells are to a point tied to gun restrictions.

I have no idea what that meant.

 

[Bradskii]

and women who meet the requirements to process a gun have just as much right as males...

Here's an idea. Address the point that was made.