Michael stands up - Daniel 12:1, Revelation 12:7-9

[grafted branch]

I know I wasn't asked, but I'm sure you don't mind my having a share, in this discussion.

According to Mathew 28:19, 20, the Gospel of the kingdom was to reach every corner of the globe.
There is no evidence the disciples, preached as far as Australia, North and South America, Southern Africa, Antarctica, etc.
In fact, Jesus said,
And whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next. For truly I say to you, you shall not have completed the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:23

So, we take those words of Colossians 1:23 in context. All Israel was indeed reached.

I agree all Israel was reached, I would add that the Silk Road was a well known trade route that dates well before the first century. So China was a known area of the globe when Paul made his statements. There is no historical evidence that the gospel was preached in China in the first century, if I remember correctly it was around 500Ad or so.

I would say the gospel being preached in all the world was referring to the Roman Empire but that’s debatable like everything else.

 

[CoreyD]

I would say the gospel being preached in all the world was referring to the Roman Empire but that’s debatable like everything else.

Now, why would you go all extreme on this, grafted? Just kidding.
That's an interesting thought. Since Rome conquered all of the then known world, the term could well apply to that world.
Was that the perspective you were looking at it from?

 

[grafted branch]

Now, why would you go all extreme on this, grafted? Just kidding.
That's an interesting thought. Since Rome conquered all of the then known world, the term could well apply to that world.
Was that the perspective you were looking at it from?

@Timtofly quoted Matthew 24:14 where the word “world” is <3625> and in Romans 10:18 Paul uses the same word “world” <3625> to say that the word was heard unto the ends of the world.

If Paul and Jesus are on the same page then Matthew 24:14 was fulfilled. If, as some suggest, Paul had a different gospel, then that may work but I think claiming there are two different gospels can only be discussed in the controversial area of this forum.

 

[CoreyD]

@Timtofly quoted Matthew 24:14 where the word “world” is <3625> and in Romans 10:18 Paul uses the same word “world” <3625> to say that the word was heard unto the ends of the world.

The same word is often used in different contexts.
Jesus did not have in mind the Roman Empire should have a witness before the end comes. That's contrary to God's will - 1 Timothy 2:3, 4, is it not?

If Paul and Jesus are on the same page then Matthew 24:14 was fulfilled. If, as some suggest, Paul had a different gospel, then that may work but I think claiming there are two different gospels can only be discussed in the controversial area of this forum.

Different contexts would be different pages, but the Gospel could be the same, although having slightly different aspects.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, we agree that there was no difference in the new covenant which took effect after the cross. The problem is you aren’t getting the fact that there was a difference in the old covenant and that covenant didn’t vanish until after Hebrews was written.

Why was there this difference?

Paul said it was due to natural and wild branches. But that is it.

A wild branch could always be grafted in, and then there was no difference. The difference is still there between those outside of the covenant and inside the covenant.

Why do you think a congregation would still be divided with differences, if a gentile converted? If a Gentile converted the no difference would still apply. A Gentile could not just do as they pleased as a wild branch. They had to totally conform to the covenant, not keep their Gentile wild ways.


The no difference part pertained mostly to the Jews because they were no longer natural branches. They were cut off and as wild branches now, and that is also the no difference part. Seems many put all the emphasis on the Gentiles, when it was Israel who was no longer Israel. They were as Gentile and wild as every other Gentile. That is the emphasis of the no difference part. Being in the kingdom was not really the point of difference to begin with.

The only thing that really changed was the removal of the natural branches. Nothing else had changed, because Gentiles had to change to be under the covenant. That did not change after the Cross. One still has to crucify the flesh and submit to the Holy Spirit. The only thing that changed, is that it was no longer natural for the house of Jacob. They now had to enter the Kingdom, like the Gentiles always had to do.

Reformed theology notwithstanding, do people think that being grafted in is automatic, without the choice of the individual? How does that work, because that seems to be the way some think. It certainly does not mean we all live as sinful Gentiles.

Also I don't think that these verses have happened even though many do.

"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

The NT Covenant still involves choice, and now Jacob has to make that choice. The whole point was that in the OT Covenant, one had a choice to remove one's self from that Covenant. A Gentile still had to choose to submit, to be under the OT Law. Many emphasize the faith and works part of the covenant. The Law of Moses was already written on their hearts as they were natural branches. So the NT Covenant of the Cross did not mean the OT Covenant was not written on their hearts. The NT Covenant is not a natural covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31-32 is the same promise as Daniel 9:24.

Now many holding to the Reformed theology state that the NT was this covenant that is written on all hearts, but only after the Second birth. Or limited to the elect. But that still means those elect are naturally born to that predisposition. There is nothing in Jeremiah 31 that limits this covenant to a select few. This promise removes all choices to the individual. They cannot choose it for themselves. They cannot remove this covenant for lack of faith and works. There is still the point can they disobey which results in death.

Getting too long, but did God and Adam have a covenant? Was there a covenant between God and the sons of God? What was the only action that would cause sin to enter the world? Did there need to be a Covenant with the many to result in sin and death? Adam was placed in the Garden away from all the other sons of God as the individual keeper of an agreement based on one fact and one fact alone. Once that agreement was severed, sin entered the world. Now this covenant in Jeremiah 31 has nothing built into the agreement that would allow sin to enter. The entire earth would be equally under this agreement. So has Israel physically been the leading nation since the Cross of this covenant mentioned in Jeremiah 31? One where everyone is born into this world a natural branch. There is no theology that can justify such an extensive covenant in place. "Spiritual Israel" is not the nation the rest of the world automatically follows without a choice. Now "Spiritual Israel" may be a term that can apply to the kingdom in Daniel 2 that fills the earth, but it is certainly not the status quo of the entire earth. For one thing the earth is not even the home of this kingdom. This kingdom just represents God and the home base is Paradise.

"But every one shall die for his own iniquity."

There will not be a punishment of sin and death universal to all mankind. But death is the last enemy, so disobedience still means death. We are still under Adam's curse. This verse cannot be true at the moment. Yes, we are individually judged for our own actions, but death is universal because of Adam's disobedience. Romans 5:12

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Most humans don't die for their own iniquity. They sin, live a long natural life, and die of natural causes.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I guess you misunderstood me. I was not referring to the word "end".
If I was, I should be beaten for asking a dumb question.
Can you imagine asking a child, "How many times does the word "end" occur in the passage, and then telling the child they are wrong, when they say one?

I was asking, how many ends were being referred to.

I can't read your mind. Just try to be more specific.

That would be an incorrect conclusion.
I am neither Amilennialists, nor preterist.

How would you describe your beliefs then? Are you a premillennialist?

I know, but you believe that refers to scriptures related to the last days of the Jewish system. For example Acts 2:16-21.

I never said that. I believe the last days refer to the entire New Testament time period leading up to the future second coming of Christ. Acts 2:16-21 shows that the last days had already begun on the day of Pentecost long ago.

Are you and @grafted branch trying to reach a conclusion on when the Gentile times ended?

We are discussing it. I see it as ending when Christ returns and he thinks it ended in 70 AD. What are your thoughts on that? Obviously, it's a debatable thing since "the times of the Gentiles" is only referenced once in scripture (in Luke 21:24). What we know about it is that it involves a time during which the Gentiles trample on Jerusalem, but not much else.

 

[grafted branch]

The same word is often used in different contexts.
Jesus did not have in mind the Roman Empire should have a witness before the end comes. That's contrary to God's will - 1 Timothy 2:3, 4, is it not?

The context of both verses is the gospel/words being preached/sounded in the world. Saying these verses agree with each other doesn’t cause a problem with 1 Timothy 2:3-4 when we understand that the end that comes in Matthew 24:14 is the end of the old covenant not the end of the planet earth.

Different contexts would be different pages, but the Gospel could be the same, although having slightly different aspects.

Right, for example, when Paul says “my gospel” in Romans 16:25 he’s not referring to a totally different gospel, I would say he’s referring to the gospel as seen in the new covenant vs the gospel as seen from the old covenant perspective.

Notice the last part of Romans 16:25 according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began. The New Testament reveals what was hidden in the Old Testament.

 

[Timtofly]

Right, to pick the 70AD sacking could be problematic except for all the various promises in the Bible about a soon coming calamity. For example Matthew 24:33-34 says this generation shall not pass away until all these things be fulfilled.

Why go to Matthew when talking about Luke? Luke has the same wording. Luke even covers the parable of the fig tree.

There have been many generations. There is no inherent need to indicate just one single generation. Matthew 24 does not even cover the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[CoreyD]

I can't read your mind. Just try to be more specific.

I thought "How many "ends" did the disciples ask Jesus about, in Matthew 24:3?" was specific.
So that I know how to ask in the future, can you please word it to be more specific for me,

How would you describe your beliefs then? Are you a premillennialist?

No. I am not premillennialism.
Wow. These names are really important to Christianity today - Amilennialists; preterist; Premillennialism; Methodists Zionist; Adventists; Calvinists.
Do I need a name to describe what I believe? If I must, then how about Biblicist. That's the closest "ist" I can identify with, but it's not a title I would declare upon myself.

I never said that. I believe the last days refer to the entire New Testament time period leading up to the future second coming of Christ. Acts 2:16-21 shows that the last days had already begun on the day of Pentecost long ago.

That's what I was saying. Don't you believe the "last days" mentioned by the prophets - including Joel, refer to the entire New Testament time period leading up to the future second coming of Christ?
Would that not mean any mention of the last days with reference to the Jewish system. is to you the last days referenced to the entire New Testament time period leading up to the future second coming of Christ?

We are discussing it. I see it as ending when Christ returns and he thinks it ended in 70 AD. What are your thoughts on that? Obviously, it's a debatable thing since "the times of the Gentiles" is only referenced once in scripture (in Luke 21:24). What we know about it is that it involves a time during which the Gentiles trample on Jerusalem, but not much else.

I would say the key is pinpointing what "the Gentiles trample on Jerusalem" is.
Once we know that, then we will know for certain when it began, and when it ends.

Let me know if the path I follow here is one the scriptures plot, or not.

What is Jerusalem represented as?
Jerusalem represents God's throne - his seat of rulership - God's kingdom

Spoiler: Scriptures

Psalm 132:13, 14
13 For the Lord has chosen Zion; He has desired it for His dwelling place:
14 “This is My resting place forever; Here I will dwell, for I have desired it.

Psalm 48:2, 3
2 Beautiful in elevation, The joy of the whole earth, Is Mount Zion on the sides of the north, The city of the great King.
3 God is in her palaces; He is known as her refuge.

Psalm 135:21
21 Blessed be the Lord out of Zion, Who dwells in Jerusalem!

Psalm 78:68
68 But chose the tribe of Judah, Mount Zion which He loved.

Genesis 49:10
10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes; And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.

Jeremiah 3:17
17 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the Lord, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow[c] the dictates of their evil hearts.

Ezekiel 43:7
7 And He said to me, “Son of man, this [Jerusalem] is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. No more shall the house of Israel defile My holy name, they nor their kings, by their [a]harlotry or with the carcasses of their kings on their high places.

2 Samuel 2:4
4 Then the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah.

2 Samuel 7:16
16 And your [king David's] house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.

1 Chronicles 28:5
5 And of all my sons (for the Lord has given me many sons) He has chosen my son Solomon to sit on the throne of the kingdom of the Lord over Israel.

1 Chronicles 29:23
23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the Lord as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.

Now that we know what Jerusalem is represented as, when did the trampling of Jerusalem begin?
The trampling of Jerusalem began when Nebuchadnezzar sacked Jerusalem.

Spoiler: Scriptures

Ezekiel 21:1-3, 25-27
1 And the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
2 “Son of man, set your face toward Jerusalem, preach against the holy places, and prophesy against the land of Israel;
3 and say to the land of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am against you, and I will draw My sword out of its sheath and cut off both righteous and wicked from you.

25 ‘Now to you, O profane, wicked prince of Israel, whose day has come, whose iniquity shall end,
26 thus says the Lord God: “Remove the turban, and take off the crown; Nothing shall remain the same. Exalt the [humble Greek shaphal (שָׁפָל): low], and [bring humble Greek shaphal (שָׁפָל): low] the exalted [or high].
27 Overthrown, overthrown, I will make it overthrown! It shall be no longer, Until He comes whose right it is, And I will give it to Him.” ’

Ezekiel 17:11-14
11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
12 “Say now to the rebellious house: ‘Do you not know what these things mean?’ Tell them, ‘Indeed the king of Babylon went to Jerusalem and took its king and princes, and led them with him to Babylon.
13 And he took the king’s offspring, made a covenant with him, and put him under oath. He also took away the mighty of the land,
14 that the kingdom might be brought low and not lift itself up, but that by keeping his covenant it might stand.

So, we have a beginning for the trampling.

So, we are in Daniel's prophecy - Daniel 2.
Interesting how we have returned to Daniel.

Daniel gives us more, but before we go there, you probably noticed that we already have our answer as to when the Gentile times ends.
Notice:

• Ezekiel 21:27 I will make it overthrown! It shall be no longer, Until He comes whose right it is, And I will give it to Him.
• Genesis 49:10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes; And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.
• Luke 1: 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

However, we can confirm this.
When would the Gentile times end?
The Gentile tines ends when the Messiah is enthroned as king of God's kingdom.

Spoiler: Scriptures

See Ezekiel 21:1-3, 25-27 and Ezekiel 17:11-14, quoted above.

Daniel 4:10-18
10 These are the visions I saw while lying in bed: I looked, and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. 11 The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth.
12 Its leaves were beautiful, its fruit abundant, and on it was food for all. Under it the wild animals found shelter, and the birds lived in its branches; from it every creature was fed.
13 “In the visions I saw while lying in bed, I looked, and there before me was a holy one, a messenger, coming down from heaven.
14 He called in a loud voice: ‘Cut down the tree and trim off its branches; strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit. Let the animals flee from under it and the birds from its branches.
15 But let the stump and its roots, bound with iron and bronze, remain in the ground, in the grass of the field. “‘Let him be drenched with the dew of heaven, and let him live with the animals among the plants of the earth.
16 Let his mind be changed from that of a man and let him be given the mind of an animal, till seven times pass by for him.
17 “‘The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of people.’

Taken at face value, a person might think Daniel 4 applies to Nebuchadnezzar , period - the end.
However, God's people know there is a message in their, related to God's kingdom, and the Gentile times.
If you will accept that, we would agree

• the seven times = the Gentile times = the period of time the tree is banded = the period of time Jerusalem is trampled on = the period of time the kingdom of God (rulership represented by the kings of Judah) is brought low.
• the enormous tree = the kingdom of God (rulership represented by the kings of Judah)
• the removing of the band, which allows the tree to grow again = God giving the kingdom to He whose right it is - Shiloh - the Son of the Highest.

Hence, once we know exactly when Daniel 7:13, 14, 27 happened, we know when the Gentile times ended.
This goes all the way back to the conversation I was having with @grafted branch, on when the kingdom began ruling.
Daniel hives us the time period, when the kings were installed.

 

[CoreyD]

The context of both verses is the gospel/words being preached/sounded in the world. Saying these verses agree with each other doesn’t cause a problem with 1 Timothy 2:3-4 when we understand that the end that comes in Matthew 24:14 is the end of the old covenant not the end of the planet earth.

You believe the end of the world is the end of the old covenant? Why?
The world is not planet earth. See 1 John 2:15-17

 

[grafted branch]

Why go to Matthew when talking about Luke? Luke has the same wording. Luke even covers the parable of the fig tree.

There have been many generations. There is no inherent need to indicate just one single generation. Matthew 24 does not even cover the destruction of Jerusalem.

Because I believe the Olivet Discourse in Matthew, Mark, and Luke are all talking about the same events.

 

[grafted branch]

You believe the end of the world is the end of the old covenant? Why?
The world is not planet earth. See 1 John 2:15-17

In several places in the Old Testament the darkening of the sun and the moon, the falling of the stars, and the shaking of the powers of heaven, are used to describe events that have already been fulfilled. This language signifies great change but not a literal end of the world.

For example Ezekiel 32:7-8 gives language very similar to Matthew 24:29 but Ezekiel 32 was fulfilled some time around 607BC. Some people say this was a foreshadow of 70AD and possibly a still future event.

 

[CoreyD]

In several places in the Old Testament the darkening of the sun and the moon, the falling of the stars, and the shaking of the powers of heaven, are used to describe events that have already been fulfilled. This language signifies great change but not a literal end of the world.

For example Ezekiel 32:7-8 gives language very similar to Matthew 24:29 but Ezekiel 32 was fulfilled some time around 607BC. Some people say this was a foreshadow of 70AD and possibly a still future event.

How can the word world be the same as old covenant?
Do you believe there is one fulfillment to prophecy only, or do you believe they can have a twofold fulfillment?
Do you believe "all nations" in Matthew 24:14 is the Roman Empire?

 

[grafted branch]

How can the word world be the same as old covenant?

I don’t think the word “world” itself is referring to the old covenant but when we see a world ending calamity being described it can mean the end of a nation or the destruction of Jerusalem, which I associate with the old covenant vanishing.

Do you believe there is one fulfillment to prophecy only, or do you believe they can have a twofold fulfillment?

Personally I’m not a proponent of dual fulfillment. I think there was a thread on this some time ago and nobody was able to give a clear example of a prophecy that has already been fulfilled more than once. I do think there are many examples of foreshadowing and type/antitype but I’m skeptical about dual fulfillment. If you know of an example I would be interested in looking at it.

Do you believe "all nations" in Matthew 24:14 is the Roman Empire?

The word “nations” in Matthew 34:14 is <1484> and is usually translated as Gentiles. I do think this is referring to the Roman Empire as that is one of the beast in Daniel and even though a country such as China was known during this time, it was not included in the progression of the beasts.

 

[Timtofly]

Solution, this takes place while the old covenant is still being observed, meaning it takes place prior to the old covenant vanishing.

Solution, this is after the Second Coming. The church is not even on the earth. Revelation 11 is still the future.

Besides a temple does not mean the OT Covenant is in effect. A temple is just the place where God connects with humanity. The church is the temple, and people still have to join the church. Gentiles are always the wild branch on the outside. Why would the court not be given to the wild branches, even today? Do you not want people to come and investigate what happens inside the temple? Or should the world be locked out and not anywhere near the place where God would welcome them, miles away?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I thought "How many "ends" did the disciples ask Jesus about, in Matthew 24:3?" was specific.
So that I know how to ask in the future, can you please word it to be more specific for me,

Whatever. Let's move on from that.

No. I am not premillennialism.
Wow. These names are really important to Christianity today - Amilennialists; preterist; Premillennialism; Methodists Zionist; Adventists; Calvinists.
Do I need a name to describe what I believe?

Not necessarily, but it's helpful. As of now I don't really know what you believe, overall. Why be so mysterious about it? A label isn't going to kill you. What is your understanding of the thousand years of Revelation 20? When do you believe it occurs? Do you believe it is a literal one thousand years?

If I must, then how about Biblicist. That's the closest "ist" I can identify with, but it's not a title I would declare upon myself.

It seems like you don't really want people to know what you believe for some reason.

That's what I was saying. Don't you believe the "last days" mentioned by the prophets - including Joel, refer to the entire New Testament time period leading up to the future second coming of Christ?

That's what I said I believe, didn't I? I know I've said it many times on this forum. So, yes, that is what I believe.

Would that not mean any mention of the last days with reference to the Jewish system. is to you the last days referenced to the entire New Testament time period leading up to the future second coming of Christ?

That's a strange question to ask me since I don't believe the phrase "the last days" is ever used in reference to the Jewish system.

I would say the key is pinpointing what "the Gentiles trample on Jerusalem" is.
Once we know that, then we will know for certain when it began, and when it ends.

That's what I said as well.

Let me know if the path I follow here is one the scriptures plot, or not.

What is Jerusalem represented as?
Jerusalem represents God's throne - his seat of rulership - God's kingdom

Spoiler: Scriptures

Psalm 132:13, 14
13 For the Lord has chosen Zion; He has desired it for His dwelling place:
14 “This is My resting place forever; Here I will dwell, for I have desired it.

Psalm 48:2, 3
2 Beautiful in elevation, The joy of the whole earth, Is Mount Zion on the sides of the north, The city of the great King.
3 God is in her palaces; He is known as her refuge.

Psalm 135:21
21 Blessed be the Lord out of Zion, Who dwells in Jerusalem!

Psalm 78:68
68 But chose the tribe of Judah, Mount Zion which He loved.

Genesis 49:10
10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes; And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.

Jeremiah 3:17
17 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the Lord, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow[c] the dictates of their evil hearts.

Ezekiel 43:7
7 And He said to me, “Son of man, this [Jerusalem] is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. No more shall the house of Israel defile My holy name, they nor their kings, by their [a]harlotry or with the carcasses of their kings on their high places.

2 Samuel 2:4
4 Then the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah.

2 Samuel 7:16
16 And your [king David's] house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever.

1 Chronicles 28:5
5 And of all my sons (for the Lord has given me many sons) He has chosen my son Solomon to sit on the throne of the kingdom of the Lord over Israel.

1 Chronicles 29:23
23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the Lord as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.

Now that we know what Jerusalem is represented as, when did the trampling of Jerusalem begin?

Hold on here. There is the earthly city of Jerusalem and then separately there is the heavenly Jerusalem which you are referring to. Why are you acting as if there is only one Jerusalem? The Jerusalem referenced in Luke 21:20-24 is the earthly city of Jerusalem that was destroyed by the Roman armies in 70 AD. Jesus said when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies you know its desolation is near. He was referring to the earthly city of Jerusalem and referring to when it and its temple buildings would be destroyed.

The trampling of Jerusalem began when Nebuchadnezzar sacked Jerusalem.

Spoiler: Scriptures

Ezekiel 21:1-3, 25-27
1 And the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
2 “Son of man, set your face toward Jerusalem, preach against the holy places, and prophesy against the land of Israel;
3 and say to the land of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am against you, and I will draw My sword out of its sheath and cut off both righteous and wicked from you.

25 ‘Now to you, O profane, wicked prince of Israel, whose day has come, whose iniquity shall end,
26 thus says the Lord God: “Remove the turban, and take off the crown; Nothing shall remain the same. Exalt the [humble Greek shaphal (שָׁפָל): low], and [bring humble Greek shaphal (שָׁפָל): low] the exalted [or high].
27 Overthrown, overthrown, I will make it overthrown! It shall be no longer, Until He comes whose right it is, And I will give it to Him.” ’

Ezekiel 17:11-14
11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
12 “Say now to the rebellious house: ‘Do you not know what these things mean?’ Tell them, ‘Indeed the king of Babylon went to Jerusalem and took its king and princes, and led them with him to Babylon.
13 And he took the king’s offspring, made a covenant with him, and put him under oath. He also took away the mighty of the land,
14 that the kingdom might be brought low and not lift itself up, but that by keeping his covenant it might stand.

So, we have a beginning for the trampling.

So, we are in Daniel's prophecy - Daniel 2.
Interesting how we have returned to Daniel.

Daniel gives us more, but before we go there, you probably noticed that we already have our answer as to when the Gentile times ends.
Notice:

• Ezekiel 21:27 I will make it overthrown! It shall be no longer, Until He comes whose right it is, And I will give it to Him.
• Genesis 49:10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes; And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.
• Luke 1: 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

However, we can confirm this.
When would the Gentile times end?
The Gentile tines ends when the Messiah is enthroned as king of God's kingdom.

Spoiler: Scriptures

See Ezekiel 21:1-3, 25-27 and Ezekiel 17:11-14, quoted above.

Daniel 4:10-18
10 These are the visions I saw while lying in bed: I looked, and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. 11 The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth.
12 Its leaves were beautiful, its fruit abundant, and on it was food for all. Under it the wild animals found shelter, and the birds lived in its branches; from it every creature was fed.
13 “In the visions I saw while lying in bed, I looked, and there before me was a holy one, a messenger, coming down from heaven.
14 He called in a loud voice: ‘Cut down the tree and trim off its branches; strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit. Let the animals flee from under it and the birds from its branches.
15 But let the stump and its roots, bound with iron and bronze, remain in the ground, in the grass of the field. “‘Let him be drenched with the dew of heaven, and let him live with the animals among the plants of the earth.
16 Let his mind be changed from that of a man and let him be given the mind of an animal, till seven times pass by for him.
17 “‘The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of people.’

Taken at face value, a person might think Daniel 4 applies to Nebuchadnezzar , period - the end.
However, God's people know there is a message in their, related to God's kingdom, and the Gentile times.
If you will accept that, we would agree

• the seven times = the Gentile times = the period of time the tree is banded = the period of time Jerusalem is trampled on = the period of time the kingdom of God (rulership represented by the kings of Judah) is brought low.
• the enormous tree = the kingdom of God (rulership represented by the kings of Judah)
• the removing of the band, which allows the tree to grow again = God giving the kingdom to He whose right it is - Shiloh - the Son of the Highest.

Hence, once we know exactly when Daniel 7:13, 14, 27 happened, we know when the Gentile times ended.
This goes all the way back to the conversation I was having with @grafted branch, on when the kingdom began ruling.
Daniel hives us the time period, when the kings were installed.

I can accept that the times of the Gentiles began when you believe they did. Since you are saying that it ended "when the Messiah is enthroned as king of God's kingdom" that would mean you believe it ended upon Christ's resurrection (and/or ascension) since that is when He was enthroned as king of God's kingdom (see Daniel 7:13-14 and Ephesians 1:19-23). But, but I disagree with your understanding of what the Gentiles trampling on Jerusalem entails. Again, the context of Luke 21:20-24 is in relation to what happened in 70 AD when the Romans armies surrounded the earthly city of Jerusalem before destroying it and make it desolate. So, the times of the Gentiles, in that context, couldn't have ended any time before that.

 

[Timtofly]

The word vanish in Hebrews 8:13 is <854> disappearing, disappearance, obliteration.

Do you ever see the old covenant completely vanishing or does it just come and go?

It stopped at the Cross. The need ended with the physical act of the Cross, never to be utilized again. Just like Abraham's bosom was emptied, the economy of the Temple was just an empty physical reminder of the past.

 

[Timtofly]

Why don’t you think that was fulfilled?

Colossians 1:23 says the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven. Also in Romans 10:18 their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Because it is still going to every creature and into all the world. You have the Gospel. Should it have stopped before you heard it?

 

[Timtofly]

So you are ignoring Revelation?

Point out in Revelation where the Gospel stops.

 

[CoreyD]

Whatever. Let's move on from that.

I don't understand that.
You tell me, you can't read my mind, and I need to try to be more specific.
I express that I was being specific, and asked you to help me out, in showing me how to be more specific, and you say "Whatever. Let's move on from that."
Is that how Christians help others?

Okay, let's move on then, but just remember that I tried. You didn't help.

Not necessarily, but it's helpful. As of now I don't really know what you believe, overall. Why be so mysterious about it?

What do you mean by being "mysterious about it"?
Would you like me to write out a list of what I believe, for you?
I was not aware of that being the purpose and requirements of these forum.
Do you normally ask others to do this?

A label isn't going to kill you.

It just might.
Jesus said, of the Pharisees :
5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.
8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted. Matthew 23:5-12

What was important to them was what people saw. Yes. That did kill them.

What is your understanding of the thousand years of Revelation 20? When do you believe it occurs? Do you believe it is a literal one thousand years?

Revelation 20, continues from Revelation 19, which describes Armageddon - God's war, against the nations, by means of the King of kings and Lord of lords, along with his army.

Revelation 20
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

The 1,000 year rule of Christ, during the time the Devil is bound, is specific, in contrast to the undefined short period of time, when the Devil will be loosed.
This is similar to Revelation 7:1-9, which gives a specific number (144,000), in contrast to an undefined amount (a great multitude that no one could count).
Thus, I see the specified number and period as literal.

It seems like you don't really want people to know what you believe for some reason.

There is something wrong with this statement. It not consistent with facts.
A person posting scriptures on various topics, on various threads, is not trying to hide what they believe.

That's what I said I believe, didn't I? I know I've said it many times on this forum. So, yes, that is what I believe.

That's a strange question to ask me since I don't believe the phrase "the last days" is ever used in reference to the Jewish system.

That's what I said as well.

So, I'm saying what you said. Why did you say "I never said that."?

Hold on here. There is the earthly city of Jerusalem and then separately there is the heavenly Jerusalem which you are referring to. Why are you acting as if there is only one Jerusalem?

Where did you see me refer to heavenly Jerusalem?
Jerusalem in Israel is not Mount Zion?

What does the scriptures tell us?

Psalm 132:13, 14​

13 For the Lord has chosen Zion; He has desired it for His dwelling place:​

14 “This is My resting place forever; Here I will dwell, for I have desired it.​

​

Psalm 48:2, 3​

2 Beautiful in elevation, The joy of the whole earth, Is Mount Zion on the sides of the north, The city of the great King.​

3 God is in her palaces; He is known as her refuge.​

​

Psalm 135:21​

21 Blessed be the Lord out of Zion, Who dwells in Jerusalem!​

​

Psalm 78:68​

68 But chose the tribe of Judah, Mount Zion which He loved.​

Yes, it is.

The Jerusalem referenced in Luke 21:20-24 is the earthly city of Jerusalem that was destroyed by the Roman armies in 70 AD. Jesus said when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies you know its desolation is near. He was referring to the earthly city of Jerusalem and referring to when it and its temple buildings would be destroyed.

I haven't said otherwise.

I can accept that the times of the Gentiles began when you believe they did. Since you are saying that it ended "when the Messiah is enthroned as king of God's kingdom" that would mean you believe it ended upon Christ's resurrection (and/or ascension) since that is when He was enthroned as king of God's kingdom (see Daniel 7:13-14 and Ephesians 1:19-23).

According to Daniel 7:13, 14, the Messiah "was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed."

This scripture specifically refers to Christ receiving Kingdom power in the everlasting kingdom.
Daniel does nor place this event in the first century. Read Daniel 7:7-14

Ephesians 1:19-23 refers to God giving Christ authority - "He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church.... the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, which [God] worked in Christ."

Receiving authority, as prince, is different to receiving a kingdom.
For example, even before his ascension, Jesus said, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." Matthew 28:18

Of him, we read:
Philippians 2:
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The kingdom of God, I've said this before, is an expression of God's sovereignty.
Hence, it has a specific function, and purpose. When it began to rule, those became evident.
The disciples asked Jesus what sign they should look for, when Jesus was in kingdom power. Matthew 24:3

But, but I disagree with your understanding of what the Gentiles trampling on Jerusalem entails.

What does it entail?

Again, the context of Luke 21:20-24 is in relation to what happened in 70 AD when the Romans armies surrounded the earthly city of Jerusalem before destroying it and make it desolate. So, the times of the Gentiles, in that context, couldn't have ended any time before that.

I agree.
I am not the one saying the Gentile times ended before 70 A.D.
It's the persons who believe the Messiah is enthroned as king of God's kingdom on his ascension.

It is true the Gentile times end on the enthronement of the Messiah. The scriptures undeniably state that fact.
Since Jesus was enthroned as king, long after 70 A.D., and not before, the Gentile times ended long after the destruction of Jerusalem.