Compiling a list of potentially heterodox churches and denominational outliers

[OldAbramBrown]

... if anyone should become aware of any local church falsely claiming affiliation with a major denomination, please link to them here, as such a local church belongs on this list probably more than anyone else ...

The Church of England has often irregularly employed or ordained individuals.

 

[The Liturgist]

The Church of England has often irregularly employed or ordained individuals.

Yes, but if someone is legitimately and with permission operating a C of E parish, even if their ordination or employment is irregular, that does not concern me, and I suppose if someone was operating a C of E parish without permission the C of E, being a State Church, could easily have them arrested, since its canon law is the law of the land in England and requires Parliamentary approval to be changed.

Rather I would be more interested if someone attempted to operate a fake church claiming to be a part of say, the United Reformed Church or the Salvation Army or another non-state denomination, for fraudulent reasons.

In the case of the C of E it seems a bit like some dioceses have some parishes which are just barely open, for example, some of the nearly-disused churches in the City of London which only occasionally have services, and some bishops in the C of E have allowed, for example, the Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox to worship in these parishes, and others might well be open to a congregation organizing informally provided it was not doing anything untoward and was not disobedient to the bishop. I have often wondered if in the case of some of the near disused parishes if someone who was, say, a licensed reader, contacted the bishop or the rector if they were not the same person and applied, if they would not be granted permission if they were qualified to try and organize say, a service of Evening Prayer.

Actually in a sense John Wesley really pushed the boundaries of what the eighteenth century C of E would allow in that he was a curate but not the rector or vicar of any parish, and was in some cases preaching in cemetaries.

 

[PloverWing]

Edited to add All Saints Evangelical Anglican Church in Ventura, CA, which is a breakaway group that remains separated from the Episcopal Church on the grounds the Episcopalians aren’t sufficiently tolerant of homosexuals, and refuses to use gender neutral pronouns. My friend @Carl Emerson will I expect be interested to note that they use the New Zealand BCP rather than the 1979 American BCP.

They can be found on facebook and have a website; I shall refrain from giving them Google Juice by linking to it directly.

Can you give a little more background on this church, and why you believe them to be a problem?

I had never heard of the Evangelical Anglican Church In America before today. The history on their web site (Who We Are – eaca.org) describes them not as being a group that broke away from The Episcopal Church in the US, but rather as descended from the Old Catholic Church. Going by the web site, it looks like the EACA has beliefs similar to TEC, and I could imagine them seeking an intercommunion agreement with TEC at some future point, but they don't seem to have been interested in that so far. (And maybe there's some complicated history that's not clear from their web site.)

Are you sure that All Saints Evangelical Anglican Church is a congregation that broke away from the Episcopal Church? I don't see that on their web site (Home). I think they have a lot in common with the values of affirming parishes in the Episcopal Church, but it looks like they've always been independent of us.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Interesting article here, and on topic to this thread: Harrison calls Japan Lutheran Church to repentance

 

[The Liturgist]

Interesting article here, and on topic to this thread: Harrison calls Japan Lutheran Church to repentance

Indeed, this is precisely why I flagged this parish as problematic; this parish in particular because it is as far as I am aware the most active of its jurisdiction, in a town where worship space is in extremely short supply, and also there are parishes of the UCC and other mainline denominations which have made the error of embracing the same inclusive language these Anglicans want the Episcopal Church to embrace, language which is sadly present in the 2006 ELCA service book, and most other recent hymnals and service books, for example, the 2009 Presbyterian hymnal, and which was at the time of their formation already prevalent in the 1991 UCC Book of Worship, but which is fortunately absent from the 1979 BCP, which is really a very good edition of the BCP, one which I prefer even to the extremely scholarly 1984 Welsh BCP prepared under Archbishop Dr. Rowan Williams when he was Archbishop of Wales before being translated to Canterbury to replace, if I recall, Archbishop Carey, because frankly the 1979 BCP is more compact and a bit more fun, in my opinion, but both are lightyears better than newer books owing to their blissful lack of politically correct woke ideology in the form of “inclusive pronouns” which seek to deny the masculine revealed nomenclature of God the Father and God the Son, which is a matter of Scriptural truth, in order to avoid causing offense to homosexuals.

There is also a related issue that any parish or local church, independent or of any denomination, mainline or otherwise, that displays a Pride Flag is denying the clear teaching of the Holy Bible including the Holy Apostle Paul concerning human sexuality, and denying the equally clear teaching that pride is as inherently sinful as lust, envy, wrath, avarice and other vile sins.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Interesting article here, and on topic to this thread: Harrison calls Japan Lutheran Church to repentance

Very curious. This is really small potatoes in comparison to the relationship between the Presbyterian churches in the United States and the Presbyterian churches in Korea. For those who may not be aware, Presbyterianism is, by far, the largest Christian set of denominations (if not the largest religion) in Korea (both South and North) as a result of intensive Presbyterian evangelism, primarily in the later nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.

In the intervening decades the Presbyterian denominations in both areas have divided and drifted in all sorts of directions so that one can easily find a denomination in one country which doctrinally aligns fairly well with a counterpart in the other country, even though they do not necessarily have the same historical development. There also some very unique Presbyterian groups, primarily in Korea, which has far more Presbyterian denominations.

 

[The Liturgist]

Very curious. This is really small potatoes in comparison to the relationship between the Presbyterian churches in the United States and the Presbyterian churches in Korea. For those who may not be aware, Presbyterianism is, by far, the largest Christian set of denominations (if not the largest religion) in Korea (both South and North) as a result of intensive Presbyterian evangelism, primarily in the later nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.

In the intervening decades the Presbyterian denominations in both areas have divided and drifted in all sorts of directions so that one can easily find a denomination in one country which doctrinally aligns fairly well with a counterpart in the other country, even though they do not necessarily have the same historical development. There also some very unique Presbyterian groups, primarily in Korea, which has far more Presbyterian denominations.

I was under the impression the churches in the North are split between a few possibly fake churches in Pyongyang, and underground chueches, like the churches in Albania under Enver Hoxha.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Very curious. This is really small potatoes in comparison to the relationship between the Presbyterian churches in the United States and the Presbyterian churches in Korea. For those who may not be aware, Presbyterianism is, by far, the largest Christian set of denominations (if not the largest religion) in Korea (both South and North) as a result of intensive Presbyterian evangelism, primarily in the later nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.

In the intervening decades the Presbyterian denominations in both areas have divided and drifted in all sorts of directions so that one can easily find a denomination in one country which doctrinally aligns fairly well with a counterpart in the other country, even though they do not necessarily have the same historical development. There also some very unique Presbyterian groups, primarily in Korea, which has far more Presbyterian denominations.

Small potatoes, maybe. While I agree with the action taken and for the reasons why it was taken, by the LCMS I can't help but consider why the LCMS continues to fail to act when, within their own ranks while the same issues are present in some (maybe many) congregations within the LCMS (we have them in LCC too).

 

[bbbbbbb]

I was under the impression the churches in the North are split between a few possibly fake churches in Pyongyang, and underground chueches, like the churches in Albania under Enver Hoxha.

That is the situation. However, in the North there are still faint echoes of the various Presbyterian denominations of the South. It is not dissimilar from the house churches of China. Although an outsider perceives these Christians as being generically Protestant and very united, this is not the actual case. There is a great deal of unity, but that unity also still has echoes of former missionary efforts. I had a young Chinese man in a class I taught in China whose dream was to emigrate to the United States and attend Westminster Seminary. This was handed down to him from his grandparents. Currently, the house churches are facing an onslaught of American pentecostalism. I had another student who adored Benny Hinn and the prosperity gospel. Chinese Christians, as with the vast majority of Chinese people, adore all things American and take their lead from what they perceive to be American culture.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Small potatoes, maybe. While I agree with the action taken and for the reasons why it was taken, by the LCMS I can't help but consider why the LCMS continues to fail to act when, within their own ranks while the same issues are present in some (maybe many) congregations within the LCMS (we have them in LCC too).

That is concerning to say the least. I am wondering what, if any, role the World Lutheran Federation might play in this situation.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

That is concerning to say the least. I am wondering what, if any, role the World Lutheran Federation might play in this situation.

Very little would be my understanding. It is easy enough for one Church body to accept or sever fellowship with another, but each body being autonomous regarding the ILC gives the ILC little authority over them; just like a congregation is autonomous in a Congregationalist synod. Then there are the politics....

 

[bbbbbbb]

Very little would be my understanding. It is easy enough for one Church body to accept or sever fellowship with another, but each body being autonomous regarding the ILC gives the ILC little authority over them; just like a congregation is autonomous in a Congregationalist synod. Then there are the politics....

Thanks!

 

[FireDragon76]

Most certainly, I was neither kidding nor being sarcastic. It is not only that earth is alive, but physicists describe how each atom in the universe has free will to choose entirely on their own. Atoms call on each other and fall in love.

Opinion | The Earth Is Just as Alive as You Are (Published 2019)

Love, quantum physics and 'entanglement'

Quantum Love Principles for Attracting the Relationship You Really Want

That isn't so strange, if you've read any Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, a French Jesuit priest and paleontologist. His philosophy is basically the mysticism of St. Paul informed by a kind of panpsychist metaphysics and his own experience in life sciences.

Or how about St. Francis' "Brother Sun and Sister Moon".

 

[The Liturgist]

Currently, the house churches are facing an onslaught of American pentecostalism. I had another student who adored Benny Hinn and the prosperity gospel. Chinese Christians, as with the vast majority of Chinese people, adore all things American and take their lead from what they perceive to be American culture.

That is distressing. I think a secret seminary is needed to ensure doctrinal orthodoxy and stamp out the Prosperity Gospel heresy in China.

 

[bbbbbbb]

That is distressing. I think a secret seminary is needed to ensure doctrinal orthodoxy and stamp out the Prosperity Gospel heresy in China.

I agree entirely. There are several networks of Bible schools in China which provide a one-year course both in essential Bible topics as well as in English instruction. The English instruction is used to motivate parents to educate their children. English is a significant element in one's ability to gain better employment. The students range in age from 13 at the very youngest up to 40 and with varying levels of knowledge of both the Bible and English. I know also of a sort of graduate school which offers instruction in basic Greek and Hebrew and some theology.

 

[Paidiske]

That is distressing. I think a secret seminary is needed to ensure doctrinal orthodoxy and stamp out the Prosperity Gospel heresy in China.

I don't know whether it needs to be in China itself? I studied alongside a Chinese student from the underground church whose community had paid for her to come and study in Australia. (I asked her once what the church in China most needed, expecting her to say something like Bibles; but what she said was good training for their leaders, because too often people who are poorly educated and trained are put into leadership and end up, through no fault of their own, really, not being effective teachers and leaders).

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't know whether it needs to be in China itself? I studied alongside a Chinese student from the underground church whose community had paid for her to come and study in Australia. (I asked her once what the church in China most needed, expecting her to say something like Bibles; but what she said was good training for their leaders, because too often people who are poorly educated and trained are put into leadership and end up, through no fault of their own, really, not being effective teachers and leaders).

That is essentially correct. One can easily purchase a Bible in China. They are for sale in all the government churches, not to mention elsewhere. There are also Christian bookstores, but they are fewer, by far, in number. They carry a wide range of Christian books, much like our bookstores, although there are seven Chinese Christian authors which are completely forbidden. Watchman Ni is one of them.

Yes, Chinese Christians can study outside of China, but to do that entails approval from the Department of Religious Affairs, obtaining a visa in the host country, and becoming proficient in English - none of which are simple matters. If I believed that this was the best option, I would have never bothered to travel to China and attempt to teach via a translator. Today it is extremely difficult, but far from impossible, for a foreign Christian to go to China and to teach Chinese Christians. IMO, that is probably the best means to meet that need - and it is an enormous need.

 

[The Liturgist]

I don't know whether it needs to be in China itself? I studied alongside a Chinese student from the underground church whose community had paid for her to come and study in Australia. (I asked her once what the church in China most needed, expecting her to say something like Bibles; but what she said was good training for their leaders, because too often people who are poorly educated and trained are put into leadership and end up, through no fault of their own, really, not being effective teachers and leaders).

Well the problem is that a large scale seminary effort located outside mainline China would be impractical, since there are by their nature more house churches relative to the number of the faithful than conventional parishes. Also using the Patriotic Catholic and Patriotic Protestant churches as entities to train leaders of the house churches would likely not work as the clergy of these entities are under close surveillance, to the point where these churches are not able to effectively meet the need the CCP insists they serve, and also that does nothing, for example, to assist the Chinese Orthodox community, which has been operating underground in mainland China since the the 1950s, presumably because Mao perceived ROCOR, which had operated the Chinese Orthodox Church after the rise of communism in Russia, as a threat to state security, although there still are Chinese Orthodox parishes operated by ROCOR in Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan. So for all of these reasons, in order to ensure that independent Anglican, Orthodox, Calvinist and other denominations are able to operate in house churches in China free from government interference, and have educated clergy, I think the way to do it is to have only a handful of house church pastors leave the country for education abroad, and then have these pastors return to China and train, ordain and mentor additional pastors, who would rinse, wash and repeat, on a sort of cellular system. In this way entire hierarchies could be organized in a manner opaque to the PRC government and security forces.

Also, from an Anglican, Catholic and Orthodox standpoint, it is interesting to consider that historically there is a Patristic precedent for one bishop to ordain another in situations of persecution, without two co-ordaining bishops as is ordinarily required (since normally to make a bishop you need three bishops). A famous case of abnormal one bishop consecrations are those performed by St. Jacob of Sarugh during the severe persecution of the Oriental Orthodox of Antioch, hof what would become the Syriac Orthodox Church, since after St. Severus we stop seeing very many notable examples of natively Greek speaking members of that church or indeed the Coptic church. This is why the Syriac Orthodox are sometimes called “Jacobites”, because of a mistaken belief that all of their bishops were only ordained thanks to St. Jacob of Sarugh, excluding anyone else.

Likewise I seem to recall one of the Old Believer hierarchies of Russian Old Rite Orthodox deriving its apostolic succession from a single bishop of the Church of Georgia. This is also the theoretical case in the case of the United Methodist Church, since John Wesley was unable to deny, and at the same time prohibited under penalty of death from openly admitting, to the fact that he was consecrated a bishop by Erasmus of Arcadia, and regardless of whether or not that happened (which it did, although John Wesley’s doctrinal position was that it was irrelevant since in his view presbyters could function as bishops in extreme cases), he acted solus in ordaining Superintendent Coke for the Methodists in North America.

The point to all of this is that for those churches which want to operate in China and for the time being would be forced to work using the house church system, it would likely be expeditious to consecrate those clergy who were trained abroad as bishops and allow them to ordain the more senior house church leaders they trained, specifically those who they had trained to the point where they were qualified to train and supervise other house church pastors, as bishops. This would I believe, for churches with an episcopal polity, lead to a smoother transition from house church to parish when the communist regime in China collapses, which seems inevitable given Xi Jinping’s neo-Maoist crackdown on human rights.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well the problem is that a large scale seminary effort located outside mainline China would be impractical, since there are by their nature more house churches relative to the number of the faithful than conventional parishes. Also using the Patriotic Catholic and Patriotic Protestant churches as entities to train leaders of the house churches would likely not work as the clergy of these entities are under close surveillance, to the point where these churches are not able to effectively meet the need the CCP insists they serve, and also that does nothing, for example, to assist the Chinese Orthodox community, which has been operating underground in mainland China since the the 1950s, presumably because Mao perceived ROCOR, which had operated the Chinese Orthodox Church after the rise of communism in Russia, as a threat to state security, although there still are Chinese Orthodox parishes operated by ROCOR in Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan. So for all of these reasons, in order to ensure that independent Anglican, Orthodox, Calvinist and other denominations are able to operate in house churches in China free from government interference, and have educated clergy, I think the way to do it is to have only a handful of house church pastors leave the country for education abroad, and then have these pastors return to China and train, ordain and mentor additional pastors, who would rinse, wash and repeat, on a sort of cellular system. In this way entire hierarchies could be organized in a manner opaque to the PRC government and security forces.

Also, from an Anglican, Catholic and Orthodox standpoint, it is interesting to consider that historically there is a Patristic precedent for one bishop to ordain another in situations of persecution, without two co-ordaining bishops as is ordinarily required (since normally to make a bishop you need three bishops). A famous case of abnormal one bishop consecrations are those performed by St. Jacob of Sarugh during the severe persecution of the Oriental Orthodox of Antioch, hof what would become the Syriac Orthodox Church, since after St. Severus we stop seeing very many notable examples of natively Greek speaking members of that church or indeed the Coptic church. This is why the Syriac Orthodox are sometimes called “Jacobites”, because of a mistaken belief that all of their bishops were only ordained thanks to St. Jacob of Sarugh, excluding anyone else.

Likewise I seem to recall one of the Old Believer hierarchies of Russian Old Rite Orthodox deriving its apostolic succession from a single bishop of the Church of Georgia. This is also the theoretical case in the case of the United Methodist Church, since John Wesley was unable to deny, and at the same time prohibited under penalty of death from openly admitting, to the fact that he was consecrated a bishop by Erasmus of Arcadia, and regardless of whether or not that happened (which it did, although John Wesley’s doctrinal position was that it was irrelevant since in his view presbyters could function as bishops in extreme cases), he acted solus in ordaining Superintendent Coke for the Methodists in North America.

The point to all of this is that for those churches which want to operate in China and for the time being would be forced to work using the house church system, it would likely be expeditious to consecrate those clergy who were trained abroad as bishops and allow them to ordain the more senior house church leaders they trained, specifically those who they had trained to the point where they were qualified to train and supervise other house church pastors, as bishops. This would I believe, for churches with an episcopal polity, lead to a smoother transition from house church to parish when the communist regime in China collapses, which seems inevitable given Xi Jinping’s neo-Maoist crackdown on human rights.

The Christians in China are well aware of the various possibilities for theological training and have sent a handful abroad. However, in light of the tens of millions of professing Christians in China, this handful, even if they were to be teaching at the Beijing school of Christianity to hundreds of students, would never be able to come close to filling the need. The government position is essentially that all religions (superstitions) are in the process of disappearing and it is really not relevant to supply religious leaders who otherwise could be productive citizens of China. As a result, men typically work seven days a week in order to support their family and their wives also are engaged in productive work. There is a complete dearth of men in the pastorate in China and the vast majority are women. I met one pastor who had four congregations in four cities to care for. He was able to visit each church only once every four weeks. During the intervening three weeks informal Bible studies and Sunday School took place (both of which are highly illegal.

One of the primary reasons for the rapid growth of Christianity in China is the Chinese fascination with all things American. The reasoning is that America did not become the leader of the world by mere accident and that there must be a spiritual force at work which resulted in their great prosperity and happiness. Therefore, if a Chinese person can discover that spiritual reason, then they, too, will become wealthy and happy. Hence, the enormous appeal of American preachers such as Benny Hinn.

The challenge is to construct a solid Christian foundation based on the Bible. Sadly, many in the West who are capable of doing so are really quite disinterested. In the meantime, Pentecostals (to pick on one brand of Prosperity Gospel folks) are flooding China with internet broadcasts and podcasts and sending missionaries in to perpetuate this perversion of the Gospel.

The door to China is rapidly closing to foreign Christians of all sorts. Hong Kong is the last bastion and it is under enormous pressure from Beijing.

Pray for China!

 

[The Liturgist]

The Christians in China are well aware of the various possibilities for theological training and have sent a handful abroad. However, in light of the tens of millions of professing Christians in China, this handful, even if they were to be teaching at the Beijing school of Christianity to hundreds of students, would never be able to come close to filling the need. The government position is essentially that all religions (superstitions) are in the process of disappearing and it is really not relevant to supply religious leaders who otherwise could be productive citizens of China. As a result, men typically work seven days a week in order to support their family and their wives also are engaged in productive work. There is a complete dearth of men in the pastorate in China and the vast majority are women. I met one pastor who had four congregations in four cities to care for. He was able to visit each church only once every four weeks. During the intervening three weeks informal Bible studies and Sunday School took place (both of which are highly illegal.

One of the primary reasons for the rapid growth of Christianity in China is the Chinese fascination with all things American. The reasoning is that America did not become the leader of the world by mere accident and that there must be a spiritual force at work which resulted in their great prosperity and happiness. Therefore, if a Chinese person can discover that spiritual reason, then they, too, will become wealthy and happy. Hence, the enormous appeal of American preachers such as Benny Hinn.

The challenge is to construct a solid Christian foundation based on the Bible. Sadly, many in the West who are capable of doing so are really quite disinterested. In the meantime, Pentecostals (to pick on one brand of Prosperity Gospel folks) are flooding China with internet broadcasts and podcasts and sending missionaries in to perpetuate this perversion of the Gospel.

The door to China is rapidly closing to foreign Christians of all sorts. Hong Kong is the last bastion and it is under enormous pressure from Beijing.

Pray for China!

Indeed, Xi Jinping is a monster. Have you ever watched The China Show podcast on YouTube?