Compiling a list of potentially heterodox churches and denominational outliers

[Mark Quayle]

So this is very interesting, but we are a bit offtopic - do any of you have any interesting examples of specific parishes, local churches or cathedrals that have departed from the normative beliefs and praxis of their denomination / faith tradition and crossed over into the ecclesiastical equivalent of the Twilight Zone?

I did just recently add an entry to the main list but it seriously was not funny in the slightest, unlike some of the examples I have posted, which is why I did not comment on it. I considered not even adding it to the list at all it was so egregious.

Where is your list?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Where is your list?

Compiling a list of potentially heterodox churches and denominational outliers

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I am compiling a list of parishes, cathedrals, chapels and local churches in Mainline and other denominations that have unusual and potentially erroneous practices and beliefs.

I'm reminded of these cases
Exorcism priest had sex with daughter
Longtime Linden minister used oral sex in exorcism ritual, men claim

Are there other cases of priests thinking it's a good idea to have sex with someone to perform an exorcism?

 

[The Liturgist]

I'm reminded of these cases
Exorcism priest had sex with daughter
Longtime Linden minister used oral sex in exorcism ritual, men claim

Are there other cases of priests thinking it's a good idea to have sex with someone to perform an exorcism?

So I looked at these, but in both cases we see illegal behavior by a clergy which also violates the canon law or church order of their respective denominations, so its not a problem with a parish that is engaging in annoying behavior with the tacit approval of the church hierarchy but individual clergy who broke civil and canon law and were arrested snd defrocked, so not really topically relevant.

I really don’t want to host a discussion on all the cases where clergy have abused people, and acted in a manner contrary to religious and secular law, because there are so many, and I find them uniformly horrific and depressing.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Compiling a list of potentially heterodox churches and denominational outliers

Looks the same as it did at the start of the OP, no? Or maybe I missed something.

 

[The Liturgist]

Looks the same as it did at the start of the OP, no? Or maybe I missed something.

I have edited it to add additional churches, and commented on each of these additions.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I have edited it to add additional churches, and commented on each of these additions.

Thanks. I'll have to read it again.

 

[The Liturgist]

Added an entry for a United Methodist church whose pastor is a Pelagian who denies the both the virgin birth and physical resurrection of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ (and implicitly denies His deity as well), and supports sexual immorality and abortion. Next to herchurch, this is probably the most shockingly “out there” church on the left wing of the spectrum, not counting the previously mentioned United Church of Canada parish in Winnipeg that put a man to death in a ritualized euthanasia ceremony.

 

[The Liturgist]

Unfortunately updated to reflect new entries, particularly Old South Church, which I discovered published a sickening pro-abortion rant: A Message after the SC Overturn of Roe v. Wade | Old South Church in Boston, MA

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Well I have been wrestling with getting back on this place’ after moving cross country from Pennsylvania back to California. There was a EO website that had a list of “non canonical “ Orthodox churches. Will try to list it later…


Independent Orthodox Churches or the Other Orthodox Family of Churches - Orthodoxy Cognate PAGE (ocpsociety.org)

 

[The Liturgist]

Well I have been wrestling with getting back on this place’ after moving cross country from Pennsylvania back to California. There was a EO website that had a list of “non canonical “ Orthodox churches. Will try to list it later…


Independent Orthodox Churches or the Other Orthodox Family of Churches - Orthodoxy Cognate PAGE (ocpsociety.org)

I am not extremely interested in “non-canonical” Orthodox churches, because canonicity can be subjective. For example, ROCOR, one of the most stalwart Eastern Orthodox churches, was in a state of canonical isolation for most of its existence, and until recently, the Orthodox Church of North Macedonia was not in communion with any other Orthodox church. There are also small churches legitimately formed by the likes of Jules Ferrette, and Rene Villatte before the latter went rogue, and some of these are trying to be Orthodox and reconcile with the established churches. And what about Thoyizoor? They are a Syriac Orthodox church in full communion with only the Mar Thoma Syrian Church, a Protestant church that is a member of the Anglican communion.

However, if you find a church claiming to be Orthodox that advocates for abortion, or sexual immorality, or the consumption of marijuana (I have seen a group with Rastafarian origins claiming to be a Coptic church), or something else weird, that I would want to know about. Likewise, if you find a parish in an Orthodox church that does not live up to the doctrinal and liturgical standards of Orthodoxy, that should be added.

I might add to the list the Melkite Catholic Cathedral in Caracas, which engages in liturgical abuses in the Byzantine rite that are as bad as any found in the Latin and Maronite rites, for example, the use of a marimba to accompany the choir during the Divine Liturgy. I think the local bishop is a proponent of liberation theology, a doctrinal position condemned (or at least decried) by Pope St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, but I would need to confirm this before adding it.

I will add Roman Catholic churches which have adopted doctrines, theologies and which were proscribed or otherwise condemned by the Pope Benedict XVI and his predecessors, or the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith during their tenure, for example, if there is a church flagrantly ignoring Roman Catholic doctrines on human sexuality or engaging in the unauthorized veneration of a private revelation not approved for public devotion by the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith. My Catholic friend @chevyontheriver I expect knows or could find out if there is anything that falls into that category.

Frankly I hope there isn’t; I would be very upset if I found myself adding Catholic, Orthodox or Assyrian churches, or churches in denominations like the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, to this list, but fairness requires me to do so, and in the case of these traditional churches, there is a real possibility of any problems that may exist being corrected, so for example if there is a rogue LCMS pastor or Orthodox priest, writing letters to their church leadership or in the Orthodox case, speaking to the bishop after a Hierarchical Divine Liturgy or otherwise communicating with the bishop, and failing that, the Holy Synod, will produce results. As an example, consider the swift action the two Bulgarian Orthodox bishops in the US took when it emerged a convert priest in Alaska who ran a home for troubled youths was mistreating them - they excommunicated him, shut the facility down and sent for the parents, and reported the affair to the Alaska State Troopers in the course of a few hours. And on the same note, Roman Catholic bishops like those of San Francisco, Madison and Pere Marquette are extremely zealous in their defense of the faith.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

It was a mix of different ones. The most interesting ones were people using the trappings of the east for Mystique. Can’t find the article anymore but will edit in a really great example.

 

[The Liturgist]

I'm reminded of these cases
Exorcism priest had sex with daughter
Longtime Linden minister used oral sex in exorcism ritual, men claim

Are there other cases of priests thinking it's a good idea to have sex with someone to perform an exorcism?

Out of curiosity have you found any cases of independent unaffiliated churches doing this?

 

[The Liturgist]

It was a mix of different ones. The most interesting ones were people using the trappings of the east for Mystique. Can’t find the article anymore but will edit in a really great example.

Well, I am still not sure this is topical for this thread because most of the independent Orthodox churches are nominally denominations.

I also know of two small independent Syriac Orthodox / West Syriac Rite jurisdictions which are not in communion with either the Patriarchate of Antioch, or the Indian Orthodox Church, or the Malankara Independent Syrian Church (Thoyizoor), but which exist because thus far the Syriac Orthodox Church has not reached out to Western Christians as effectively as the Copts, and there are also no Syriac Orthodox (whether Suroye, Jacobite, IOC or Thoyizoor) parishes located anywhere near them. For example, the jurisdiction headed by Mar Cassian Lewis. I respect these jurisdictions as valid denominations that are serious about their ministry.

As an example of the other extreme, there is a Celtic Orthodox Church that consists of a bishop who lives and conducts services from a trailer, and has no other parishes or priests under him as far as I am aware, so Vagante churches do exist, but I don’t feel there is a great need to warn people about them as the ones that are a problem are also generally inept at attracting congregations. The exception would be any sort of a cult that had several members in a high control group type situation. But even then, it would be offtopic for this thread unless it was an individual parish in a larger denomination.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Out of curiosity have you found any cases of independent unaffiliated churches doing this?

Wouldn't make as good press I'd imagine. Haven't seen any yet, but humans are humans.

 

[The Liturgist]

Edited to add All Saints Evangelical Anglican Church in Ventura, CA, which is a breakaway group that remains separated from the Episcopal Church on the grounds the Episcopalians aren’t sufficiently tolerant of homosexuals, and refuses to use gender neutral pronouns. My friend @Carl Emerson will I expect be interested to note that they use the New Zealand BCP rather than the 1979 American BCP.

They can be found on facebook and have a website; I shall refrain from giving them Google Juice by linking to it directly.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Edited to add All Saints Evangelical Anglican Church in Ventura, CA, which is a breakaway group of Episcopalians...

May I suggest a simple preposition change of replacing "of" with "from". Once they broke away from The Episcopal Church, they are no longer Episcopalians. Their website now lists them as members of the Evangelical Anglican Church In America.

 

[The Liturgist]

May I suggest a simple preposition change of replacing "of" with "from". Once they broke away from The Episcopal Church, they are no longer Episcopalians. Their website now lists them as members of the Evangelical Anglican Church In America.

A valid point although I decided on a broader rewrite. That said, there are several continuing Anglican churches that do style themselves Episcopalian, as well as the Scottish Episcopalians, so I will say that in my view the Episcopal Church does not have any exclusive title to the word “Episcopalian” any more than the C of E has dominion over the word “Anglican” or the Roman church “Catholic.” That said it is my view that churches should avoid styling themselves as being of a denomination they are not except in cases of disputed identity, for example, there is no reasonable objection to the SSPX or even groups with less of an official connection to the Roman church calling themselves Roman Catholic, but rather, if someone set up a church and attempted to pass it off as being a part of, for example, the Episcopal Church USA, that would be unethical for obvious reasons especially given the privileged credentials that clergy of certain very well known denominations are able to obtain.

Indeed, on this point, if anyone should become aware of any local church falsely claiming affiliation with a major denomination, please link to them here, as such a local church belongs on this list probably more than anyone else. Indeed I would argue that Westboro Baptist Church could be argued to be in that category in that while they do not claim membership in one of the other Baptist denominations, they at one time did have such an affiliation, and their theology has since become so abhorrent and atypical and toxic that it has harmed the public reputation of Baptists and causes confusion.

Thus I would argue, proceeding from your post, that is is unethical for churches to either dissimulate themselves so as to acquire the identity of another church, or be to commit outrageous conduct would harm the reputation of other churches with similar names. For instance, it was deeply unethical for the Nazis to style their racist neo-Marcionite heresy as “Positive Christianity” for it was not a Christian doctrine.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

The list will have millions of entries, and we'll never know when to cross them off it when they spontaneously improve. I've never been in a church that didn't have a lot wrong with it. So many big shouts claim to own doctrine, one will never convince bystanders someone in particular is wrong. Most "charismatics" are functionally cessationist (as to gifts), while any evangelicals who have abolished pastoring don't have a gospel.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

... that molecules, atoms or subatomic particles have free will ...

Doesn't Scripture invite trees to clap their hands?

To Epicurus, atoms swerve or shimmer.

God made us in His image in a contingent world in order that we can look after each others' integrity in Holy Spirit strength.

Irrational churches can be seriously unhelpful, whether their organisations or outsiders declare them "heterodox" or not.

Disrespect for reason leads to corner cutting over finances, bullying, etc - I've seen it time an d again.