{MOVED} Do single women have to cover their hair when prophesying etc in church

Josheb

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I will check out the book but first, please tell me

where are the Bible verses claiming a woman has to live with her father until she marries? where is the verse that sets an age for marriage?
It does not ever state such a thing. That is, however, the pattern established by example. It's not taught, but it is exemplified.

My point, however, wasn't that you should think it is taught. It was the practice for a woman to live under her father's "covering" until she married and was then "covered" by her husband. This existed for certain reasons economically, socially, and most important, spiritually. It was also a practice often abused and nowadays quite often misunderstood. Give what you've said about your family-of-origin abuse I completely understand how that wouldn't work for you or why you'd choose otherwise.

My post was intended to get you to think about the question I was just asked: "Where are the Bible verses claiming............?"

Because what Paul says about women and head coverings has context and it's not a rule by which women in the 21st century need abide, especially not legalistically. That would be just another form of abuse and you've had enough of that, yes?

If you cite the verses then I'll look at them with you so we can collaboratively answer the questions this op asks.

Or do you need a bunch of men you've never met telling you how to live and whether or not you should be wearing hats?
 
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Josheb

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the weird thing is, in my spirit, i feel OK not covering. i honeslty dont believe it adds anything to my salvation. but then i get told i should..urghhh
Who tells you that and why?

Next time they say something ask, "How come?" or say, "Tell me more about that," and listen. See how well they handle scripture. Are they using whole scripture, or are they proof-texting? Are they applying context exegetically? Are they handling the scriptures both by its letter and by its principle(s), or solely by the letter (which tends toward legalism)?
 
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Junia

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It does not ever state such a thing. That is, however, the pattern established by example. It's not taught, but it is exemplified.

My point, however, wasn't that you should think it is taught. It was the practice for a woman to live under her father's "covering" until she married and was then "covered" by her husband. This existed for certain reasons economically, socially, and most important, spiritually. It was also a practice often abused and nowadays quite often misunderstood. Give what you've said about your family-of-origin abuse I completely understand how that wouldn't work for you or why you'd choose otherwise.

My post was intended to get you to think about the question I was just asked: "Where are the Bible verses claiming............?"

Because what Paul says about women and head coverings has context and it's not a rule by which women in the 21st century need abide, especially not legalistically. That would be just another form of abuse and you've had enough of that, yes?

If you cite the verses then I'll look at them with you so we can collaboratively answer the questions this op asks.

Or do you need a bunch of men you've never met telling you how to live and whether or not you should be wearing hats?

i deffo dont need that, so i will get the verses
 
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Josheb

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1 Cor 11: 2- 5

1 cor 11: 5- 16 especially
Great.

Let's look at the text.

1 Corinthians 11:1-16
"Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering. But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God."

You'll note there are two specified conditions for the coverings: prayer and prophesyiing! Paul makes no mentions of head coverings while singing, or teaching, or preaching, or raising hands, or going to the bathroom or entering the service, or leaving the service, or anything other then the two specified conditions of prayer and prophesying.

Note Paul says, "...let her also have her hair cut off..." if she doesn't cover her head. Does Paul literally want to shave women's heads? Not likely. This is rhetoric. This is literary use of hyperbole. It is highly doubtful a woman who was prophesying without a hat was dragged out of the service to have her head shaved. There's no record of such an occurrence and such a practice would most certainly have led to an early end to the spread of the gospel.

In what context are a man and a woman not independent of one another? Scripture gives us two conditions: 1) the image of God, and 2) marriage. In all other ways men and women live independently, even in the first century. So which is the more likely context for what Paul is writing? Could be either because elsewhere Paul writes explicitly about men and women within the context of marriage but marriage exists within the context of the image of God (Genesis 1:27). Soteriologically speaking, there is neither male nor female in Christ (Galatians 3:28).

Are we to think all women are "head" over all women? I can assure every single man here if he comes to my house and attempts to "head" himself over my wife we'll consider it mercy if he's able to walk out of my house under his own faculties. Nowhere does scripture assert such a hierarchy. So why do we impose such a measure on this passage and ignore its stated contexts?

One last clue: Corinth was a pagan city and it housed temples of Apollos, Poseidon, and most germane to this passage, the temple of Aphrodite. This last temple is important because the Aphrodite cult was a woman-led cult. It didn't have priests, it had priestesses. Females led that religion. Not only was it female-led but like many other pagan cults the worship of these gods involved temple prostitutes. As the gospel converted Aphrodite worshipers women leaders who were used to power and control were converted. This posed a problem for Christian worship for both Jewish and Gentile converts coming from patriarchal povs. We find the same problem arising in Ephesus where the temples of Dionysus and Artemis were central to that city's religious life. These cults were characterized by the institutionalization of behaviors God holds in antithesis to His standards. Orgies and gluttony were acts of worship! This is one of the reasons there were problems with the Lord's supper in Corinth: for the pagan converts this was a feast in which the goal was to gorge oneself to hedonistic and epicurean content (along with the fact the richer classes were able to make it to the Christian services earlier than the working classes).


So what Paul's writing has specified limits, is written with a certain amount of observable rhetoric, has scriptural context that runs through the whole of scripture, not a half a chapter in one book of the Bible, and has cultural context lost on the 21st century reader.
 
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Peter J Barban

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I think the Holy Scriptures apply this passage to all women, not just married women.

1 Corinthians 11:2-16 New International Version
On Covering the Head in Worship
2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you. 3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.
 
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Hi i know the Bible says married womena re to cover their heads in church if they are praying or prophesying. what about single women? these days single women are not under male headship as we don't get amrried in our teens straight from living in our father's home. so we are not under headship of our father nor a husband.

so do we need to cover? or not?
In 1 Corinthians 11 1-16 the apostle Paul discusses women wearing prayer veils. Should women wear prayer veils? After much research and prayer, I was moved by the Spirit that half a chapter of Holy Scripture should not be ignored or treated as “incidental” and not preached by the churches.

What are some of the common arguments heard against women wearing prayer veils in the church? One of the most common is that the women’s hair is their covering. Another is that it was a custom of the time and not a principle. Let’s discuss these one at a time.

Many read only one verse v.15 out of the entire 16 verses and decide that women's hair is their covering, but such an interpretation would contradict itself and make the entire scripture nonsense.

Let’s take a closer look about what I am referring to. If her hair has been given to her as a natural covering verse 15 then in verse 5 why would it read if her head is uncovered meaning "bald" let her be more bald? See the contradiction to such an interpretation? Obviously, two different types of coverings are being discussed here. One is her hair, her natural covering for the outside world and her veil inside the church.

1 Corinthians 11:1-16 (KJV)

1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

When we read scripture, we tend to come to the scriptures with natural biases whether we realize it or not. We currently live in a post-feminist society. This world view has also infiltrated into the churches. It is difficult in our current society to interpret certain scripture when it goes against what societal norms and dictates. In our post-feminist society women wearing prayer veils would be considered sexist. Yet, so would many other teachings of the bible such as Pastors being men and the divine order discussed not only here 1 Corinthians but throughout the bible.

A veil may be whatever covering is customary for the day, other than hair. As long as the woman's head is covered is what the Apostle Paul was driving home in this half a chapter of Holy scripture regarding the topic. I try not to be dogmatic about what type of head covering it should be.

As I stated earlier another common argument against head coverings is that it was a custom at the time and does not apply to us today.

Principles are those commands of God that apply to all people at all time in every culture and in every life situation.

Customs are those things that are variant local applications of principles.

For example, in the NT the principle of tithing was there and in those days it was done in the Denarius or the Shekel. Does that mean that the only way we can please God today is by paying our tithes in Denarius or Shekel? Of course not! The monetary unit was customary the clothing styles those are the things that are subject to change from culture to culture from place to place. The principle of modesty applies to all generations, but how that modesty is manifested will differ from one country to another and from one time to another. We understand that those things are customary. Many times, distinguishing between customs and principles is a relatively easy matter, but not always sometimes it is excruciatingly difficult to make that distinction.


Here is the Principle to apply if you can't decide if something is a custom or principle. The biblical principle would be whatever is not of faith is a sin. The burden of proof is always going to be on those who argue that such and such a command is custom and not principle. If you are not sure then the principle that applies is treat it as a principle, because if you treat a custom as a principle then the only guilt you bear is being overly scrupulous, but if you take a principle of God and treat it as a local custom and don't observe it you have sinned against God.


Every serious student of the Word of God first seeks to discover its meaning and standards and then, and only then, to bring practice into conformity with it. Biblical principles determine Biblical practice.


It would appear the church had a rich history of veiling for women up until the feminist movement launched a specific attack against the practice.

It was the "meaning" of this act that the feminist movement took offense to as does our current day society regarding "male headship in the home & church," which is God's order of creation that the Apostle Paul touched on in several of his epistles.

Excerpt used for EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY: from Gardiner, Jeremy. Head Covering: A Forgotten Christian Practice for Modern Times Head Covering Movement. Kindle Edition.

The National Organization for Women (NOW) is a feminist organization founded by Betty Friedan (author of The Feminist Mystique). In 1968 they rallied their troops to have a “national unveiling.” Here’s what they said: “Because the wearing of a head covering by women at religious services is a symbol of subjection with many churches, NOW recommends that all chapters undertake an effort to have all women participate in a "national unveiling" by sending their head coverings to the task force chairman. At the spring meeting of the task force of women and religion, these veils will be publicly burned to protest the second class status of women in all churches.” [25] NOW rallied their various chapters to “undertake an effort” to stop the practice of head covering. They were so disgusted with the symbol and what it represented that they had a public burning of women’s veils. Sadly, their efforts achieved what they hoped it would.

I do believe that in regards to women wearing a prayer veil that it should not be "required" by the church since that would make it to no "effect," because the biblical principle here is "voluntary submission." As a Pastor, I believe I am required to preach the "whole" word of God to the congregation and let the women in the congregation make their own personal "choice" on the matter as to be in proper fellowship with the Lord. Basically, I believe I am held accountable for preaching it, but they are held accountable for its execution.


1 Corinthians 11: 5-16 Biblical Exegesis


Excerpt used for EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY: 1 MacDonald, W. (1995). Believer’s Bible Commentary: Old and New Testaments. (A. Farstad, Ed.) (pp. 1785–1787). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

11:5 Every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, that is, the man. She is saying, in effect, that she does not recognize man’s God-given headship and will not submit to it.


If this were the only verse in the Bible on the subject, then it would imply that it is all right for a woman to pray or prophesy in the assembly as long as she has a veil or other covering on her head. But Paul teaches elsewhere that women should be silent in the assembly (1 Cor. 14:34), that they are not permitted to teach or to have authority over the man but to be in silence (1 Tim. 2:12).


Actually meetings of the assembly do not come into view until verse 17, so the instructions concerning the head-covering in verses 2–16 cannot be confined to church meetings. They apply to whenever a woman prays or prophesies. She prays silently in the assembly, since 1 Timothy 2:8 limits public prayer to the men (lit., males). She prays audibly or silently at other times. She prophesies when she teaches other women (Titus 2:3–5) or children in the Sunday school.


11:6 If a woman is not covered, she might as well be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, then she should be covered. The unveiled head of a woman is as shameful as if her hair were cut off. The apostle is not commanding a barber’s operation but rather telling what moral consistency would require!


11:7 In verses 7–10, Paul teaches the subordination of the woman to the man by going back to creation. This should forever lay to rest any idea that his teaching about women’s covering was what was culturally suitable in his day but not applicable to us today. The headship of man and the subjection of woman have been God’s order from the very beginning.


First of all, man is the image and glory of God whereas woman is the glory of man. This means that man was placed on earth as God’s representative, to exercise dominion over it. Man’s uncovered head is a silent witness to this fact. The woman was never given this place of headship; instead she is the glory of man in the sense that she “renders conspicuous the authority of man,” as W. E. Vine expresses it.


Man indeed ought not to cover his head in prayer; it would be tantamount to veiling the glory of God, and this would be an insult to the Divine Majesty.


11:8 Paul next reminds us that man was not created from woman but woman was created from man. The man was first, then the woman was taken from his side. This priority of the man strengthens the apostle’s case for man’s headship.


11:9 The purpose of creation is next alluded to in order to press home the point. Nor was man created primarily for the woman, but rather woman for the man. The Lord distinctly stated in Genesis 2:18, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.”


11:10 Because of her position of subordination to man, the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head. The symbol of authority is the head-covering and here it indicates not her own authority but subjection to the authority of her husband.


Why does Paul add because of the angels? We would suggest that the angels are spectators of the things that are happening on earth today, as they were of the things that happened at creation. In the first creation, they saw how woman usurped the place of headship over the man. She made the decision that Adam should have made. As a result of this, sin entered the human race with its unspeakable aftermath of misery and woe. God does not want what happened in the first creation to be repeated in the new creation. When the angels look down, He wants them to see the woman acting in subjection to the man, and indicating this outwardly by a covering on her head.


We might pause here to state that the head-covering is simply an outward sign and it is of value only when it is the outward sign of an inward grace. In other words, a woman might have a covering on her head and yet not truly be submissive to her husband. In such a case, to wear a head-covering would be of no value at all. The most important thing is to be sure that the heart is truly subordinate; then a covering on a woman’s head becomes truly meaningful.


11:11 Paul is not implying that man is at all independent of the woman, so he adds: “Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord.” In other words, man and woman are mutually dependent. They need one another and the idea of subordination is not at all in conflict with the idea of mutual interdependence.


11:12 Woman came from man by creation, that is, she was created from Adam’s side. But Paul points out that man also comes through woman. Here he is referring to the process of birth. The woman gives birth to the man child. Thus God has created this perfect balance to indicate that the one cannot exist without the other.


All things are from God means that He has divinely appointed all these things, so there is no just cause for complaint. Not only were these relationships created by God, but the purpose of them all is to glorify Him. All of this should make the man humble and the woman content.


11:13 The apostle now challenges the Corinthians to judge among themselves if it is proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered. He appeals to their instinctive sense. The suggestion is that it is not reverent or decorous for a woman to enter into the presence of God unveiled.


11:14 Just how does nature itself teach us that it is a shame for a man to have long hair is not made clear. Some have suggested that a man’s hair will not naturally grow into as long tresses as a woman’s. For a man to have long hair makes him appear effeminate. In most cultures, the male wears his hair shorter than the female.


11:15 Verse 15 has been greatly misunderstood by many. Some have suggested that since a woman’s hair is given to her for a covering, it is not necessary for her to have any other covering. But such a teaching does grave violence to this portion of Scripture. Unless one sees that two coverings are mentioned in this chapter, the passage becomes hopelessly confusing. This may be demonstrated by referring back to verse 6. There we read: “For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn.” According to the interpretation just mentioned, this would mean that if a woman “does not have her hair on,” then she might just as well be shorn. But this is ridiculous. If she does not “have her hair on,” she could not possibly be shorn!


The actual argument in verse 15 is that there is a real analogy between the spiritual and the natural. God gave woman a natural covering of glory in a way He did not give to man. There is a spiritual significance to this. It teaches that when a woman prays to God, she should wear a covering on her head. What is true in the natural sphere should be true in the spiritual.


11:16 The apostle closes this section with the statement: “But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.” Does Paul mean, as has been suggested, that the things he has just been saying are not important enough to contend about? Does he mean that there was no such custom of women veiling their heads in the churches? Does he mean that these teachings are optional and not to be pressed upon women as the commandments of the Lord? It seems strange that any such interpretations would ever be offered, yet they are commonly heard today. This would mean that Paul considered these instructions as of no real consequence, and he had just been wasting over half a chapter of Holy Scripture in setting them forth!


There are at least two possible explanations of this verse which fit in with the rest of the Scripture. First of all, the apostle may be saying that he anticipates that certain ones will be contentious about these matters, but he adds that we have no such custom, that is, the custom of contending about this. We do not argue about such matters, but accept them as the teaching of the Lord. Another interpretation, favored by William Kelly, is that Paul was saying that the churches of God did not have any such custom as that of women praying or prophesying without being covered.



There is also a growing number of individuals reviving the practice. See https://www.headcoveringmovement.com for further information.
 
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dqhall

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"Try to notice the styles other women are wearing." but this is my issue- no one at my church covers. so none of the other women at church are wearing anything on their head to observe? also why would i not want my own style of hat, which represents what i like or reflects my taste?

expensive fashions? am on welfare. i dont do expensive. everything is Thrift store or Primark for me. you can get lovely things low cost. during lockdowmn i sometimes use e-bay for things but only undr a certain budget
Paul was writing about external appearance. That is not as important as what is within a person. Styles have changed after about 2000 years. This commandment to cover the head may be ignored. Your hair is your covering.
 
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Hi i know the Bible says married womena re to cover their heads in church if they are praying or prophesying. what about single women? these days single women are not under male headship as we don't get amrried in our teens straight from living in our father's home. so we are not under headship of our father nor a husband.

so do we need to cover? or not?
I would submit that even if a single woman is not living with her father she is still under his headship. If he has passed on, then she is under the headship of the elders and decons at church.
 
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Junia

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Great.

Let's look at the text.

1 Corinthians 11:1-16
"Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering. But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God."

You'll note there are two specified conditions for the coverings: prayer and prophesyiing! Paul makes no mentions of head coverings while singing, or teaching, or preaching, or raising hands, or going to the bathroom or entering the service, or leaving the service, or anything other then the two specified conditions of prayer and prophesying.

Note Paul says, "...let her also have her hair cut off..." if she doesn't cover her head. Does Paul literally want to shave women's heads? Not likely. This is rhetoric. This is literary use of hyperbole. It is highly doubtful a woman who was prophesying without a hat was dragged out of the service to have her head shaved. There's no record of such an occurrence and such a practice would most certainly have led to an early end to the spread of the gospel.

In what context are a man and a woman not independent of one another? Scripture gives us two conditions: 1) the image of God, and 2) marriage. In all other ways men and women live independently, even in the first century. So which is the more likely context for what Paul is writing? Could be either because elsewhere Paul writes explicitly about men and women within the context of marriage but marriage exists within the context of the image of God (Genesis 1:27). Soteriologically speaking, there is neither male nor female in Christ (Galatians 3:28).

Are we to think all women are "head" over all women? I can assure every single man here if he comes to my house and attempts to "head" himself over my wife we'll consider it mercy if he's able to walk out of my house under his own faculties. Nowhere does scripture assert such a hierarchy. So why do we impose such a measure on this passage and ignore its stated contexts?

One last clue: Corinth was a pagan city and it housed temples of Apollos, Poseidon, and most germane to this passage, the temple of Aphrodite. This last temple is important because the Aphrodite cult was a woman-led cult. It didn't have priests, it had priestesses. Females led that religion. Not only was it female-led but like many other pagan cults the worship of these gods involved temple prostitutes. As the gospel converted Aphrodite worshipers women leaders who were used to power and control were converted. This posed a problem for Christian worship for both Jewish and Gentile converts coming from patriarchal povs. We find the same problem arising in Ephesus where the temples of Dionysus and Artemis were central to that city's religious life. These cults were characterized by the institutionalization of behaviors God holds in antithesis to His standards. Orgies and gluttony were acts of worship! This is one of the reasons there were problems with the Lord's supper in Corinth: for the pagan converts this was a feast in which the goal was to gorge oneself to hedonistic and epicurean content (along with the fact the richer classes were able to make it to the Christian services earlier than the working classes).


So what Paul's writing has specified limits, is written with a certain amount of observable rhetoric, has scriptural context that runs through the whole of scripture, not a half a chapter in one book of the Bible, and has cultural context lost on the 21st century reader.


thank you that does explain it better.
 
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Junia

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I would submit that even if a single woman is not living with her father she is still under his headship. If he has passed on, then she is under the headship of the elders and decons at church.

yes i supose it would. also that would apply in cases like mine when fsather was abusive so had to limit contact with him. i tend to consider myself more under the authority and care of my pastor who is a safe person to be around. though i think the idea of headhsip was protection originally, hence why it was fathers before daughters were married. there were not many situation slike mine in Paul's day- because a child in my situation would be married by her mid teens, so very black and white then....a 38 year old single woman woulod not realistically be expected to move back inwith her family until finding a partner. there were also few women like me who did not want marriage or children. so it is hard to apply this to my own life when i am very much an exception to the rules. even compared with most christian women today my situation is very different.
 
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Junia

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I think the Holy Scriptures apply this passage to all women, not just married women.

1 Corinthians 11:2-16 New International Version
On Covering the Head in Worship
2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you. 3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.

This is where i struggle a bit. i am involved in prophesy and prayer in my church and yet when i do prophesy i do not feel any sense that my head out to be covered? i have the holy spirit in me and yet i don't personally feel convicted on this issue at all?!

i did try head covering for a short period a few years ago back when i was under legalism and a new believer. i did it because of fear, i felt i ought to do it or else my prayers were not acceptab;e to God. finally i learned about true salvation and it not being by works so i no longer consider this a salvation issue or amajor one but at same time i would not want to disappoint God if He wanted me to cover and yet when I have rpayed on this issue i felt no peace about covering at all?

another thing is, my hair isn't long, and growng it beyond shoulder length difficut as very textured. so if my hair is middle length (i wear in a bob) then perhaps just a hat or even af hairpiece kind of thing would be appropriate?! i must pray on it a little more
 
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Josheb

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Nothing in the text says that a man is a "covering" of a woman.
Yep. That is true, but that is not an answer to the question I asked you. Nowhere did I actually state the passage was about "a man is a 'covering' of a woman," did I? So how about you answer the question asked.

Where is the misread text?

Notice I did NOT ask, "Where was the text misread?" I asked, "Where is the misread text?"

Now, to clarify the question so you better understand what I am asking.... you posted, "That interpretation is based on a misreading of the text," and I then asked "Where is the text misread?" and you have, apparently, assumed the man covering the woman was garnered from the 1 Corinthians 11 text. That would be a mistake on your part. Nowhere did I state 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 says anything about a man covering a woman. So....

Where is the misread text?
The text is about physical head coverings.
Was my brief exegesis of the text read? If so then what did I say? If not then please read it before proceeding (post #27).
 
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Josheb

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For example, in the NT the principle of tithing was there and in those days it was done in the Denarius or the Shekel....
There is no "principle of tithing" in the NT after the gospels.

Look it up. You won't find the words "tithe" or "tithing" in the epistolary as a directive for the saints. Not once. Look it up if there are any doubts.


What you will find is a new standard, one that is described as cheerful and generous giving of all one has in time, talent, and treasure based on God's provision, real need and God's leaning. That is the NT standard. It is garnered from the principle of the offering, not the tithe. It is leveraged from the principle of the bond-servant = You are not your own; for you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body (1 Cor. 6:19-20).


You're handle says you're a pastor, and a senior pastor at that. I do hope you're not still teaching tithes when you should be teaching something much greater. I trust - since you are a pastor - you recognize the New Testament scriptures I am referencing when I mention cheerful giving, generous giving, giving based on real need and giving based on God's leading. If you know them then please teach them.
 
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Junia

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There is no "principle of tithing" in the NT after the gospels.

Look it up. You won't find the words "tithe" or "tithing" in the epistolary as a directive for the saints. Not once. Look it up if there are any doubts.


What you will find is a new standard, one that is described as cheerful and generous giving of all one has in time, talent, and treasure based on real need and God's leaning. That is the NT standard. It is garnered from the principle of the offering, not the tithe. It is leveraged from the principle of the bond-servant = You are not your own; for you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body (1 Cor. 6:19-20).


You're handle says you're a pastor, and a senior pastor at that. I do hope you're not still teaching tithes when you should be teaching something much greater. I trust - since you are a pastor - you recognize the New Testament scriptures I am referencing when I mention cheerful giving, generous giving, giving based on real need and giving based on God's leading. If you know them then please teach them.

I don't tithe. some people in my church find t hwlpful tp give the first tenth of their income, and that is fine. others prefer to give as the LOrd leads. some of us have to, because one week we have plenty left after bills, other weeks we may find we need shoes or to pay a vet bill. under the new testamnet either is acceptable. it is one of those issues like Sbbath keeping- we don't judge those who do itbut it not mandatory.
 
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Josheb

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When we read scripture, we tend to come to the scriptures with natural biases whether we realize it or not. We currently live in a post-feminist society.
What does living in a post-feminist society have to do with proper exegesis of a first century pre-feminist society? By bringing our society up you defied demonstrated the very thing you're posting about!

Paul's concern was not the 21st century Church.
As I stated earlier another common argument against head coverings is that it was a custom at the time and does not apply to us today.
Which would be wrong because it wasn't the custom at that time.


The custom of that time for the Jews was to separate the men from the women in worship. The custom of that time for the pagans in Corinth was to mix the sexes in gluttonous feasts and sexualized hedonism. Those are still certainly applicable in today's culture outside the Church.
Principles are those commands of God that apply to all people at all time in every culture and in every life situation.
Yep. I completely agree and commend that statement.
Every serious student of the Word of God first seeks to discover its meaning and standards and then, and only then, to bring practice into conformity with it. Biblical principles determine Biblical practice.
Why then have you brought up 21st century post-feminism?
It would appear the church had a rich history of veiling for women up until the feminist movement launched a specific attack against the practice.
????? What do you mean by posting about appearances?!? You just got done stating every serious student (implying some are not serious?) of God's word first seeks to discover the meaning and standards and yet here you are appealing to appearances!

The church in Corinth was brand new. Less than 40 years old at best. It did not have a "rich history."

You should be just as critical of Jeremy Gardiner's claims as you are of my post. There's some commendable content in your post, senior pastor, but there's a lot of dross, too. The concept of principle is spot on. Principle should always be applied over letter and we see that repeatedly demonstrated throughout the NT epistolary (such as when the law about not muzzling the ox is applied to the NT-era believer in Christ).

The Greek word for veil is "kalymma." Paul uses the term in his second letter to Corinth in chapter three when discussing the veil Moses wore after meeting with God and the veil that lies over the hearts of those still couched in the old covenant. If Paul was writing about veils - veils that were a common custom of the era - then why didn't he use the word "veil"? Why did he speak of "covering," instead? The term Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 11 is "peribolaiou," a term that can also be translated as "mantle," "cloak," "vesture," "robe," or "wrapping" (G4018). What was the custom of covering related to men and women at that time, senior pastor? What covering would have been a woman's "symbol of authority" in the Corinthian congregation in a congregation of both men and women? What symbol of authority that a female Christian would wear would be related to the angels?

Did you find Gardiner answering any of those questions?

Do you find Gardiner answers WrappedUpinHisLove3's questions?
 
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