{MOVED} Do single women have to cover their hair when prophesying etc in church

Josheb

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In the hierarchical scheme of creation, man's glory is always subordinate to God's glory when the church gathers to pray and prophesy.
Fail.

Humanity (male or female) has no glory of its own. Humanity's glory is always subordinate to God, not just when they gather to pray or prophesy.

You've just eisegeted scripture and done so in a logically fallacious manner that bears absolutely no integrity with scripture. And you done that after admonishing me for doing the same. All integrity is lost when such wanton hypocrisy is so repeatedly practiced. If you don't want me pointing it out then.....



don't do it.
 
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Oldmantook

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Fail.

All verse 7 states is, "For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man." It does not say, "God's glory is made manifest when the men leave their heads uncovered while the women do the opposite..." You've just eisegeted scripture. So don't accuse me of eisegesis and then do the same yourself.
So explain to me why men don't have to cover their heads and women have to cover theirs? Paul is making a logical case which you are free to ignore. It specifically states the man ought not to cover his head because he is the image/glory of God. The woman is the glory of man thus she ought to cover her head (v.10). Read the text.
 
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Oldmantook

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Fail.

Humanity (male or female) has no glory of its own. Humanity's glory is always subordinate to God, not just when they gather to pray or prophesy.

You've just eisegeted scripture and done so in a logically fallacious manner that bears absolutely no integrity with scripture. And you done that after admonishing me for doing the same. All integrity is lost when such wanton hypocrisy is so repeatedly practiced. If you don't want me pointing it out then.....



don't do it.
Read the text. It distinguishes between men and women.
 
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Josheb

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Fail. Paul wrote to the church in Corinth about the things in chapt. 11.
Yeah, I'm gonna let that sit without further address because it's inanity is self-evident: Paul wrote to the church in Corinth about the things in chapter 11 but according to you did so without cultural context.
 
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Oldmantook

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Yeah, I'm gonna let that sit without further address because it's inanity is self-evident: Paul wrote to the church in Corinth about the things in chapter 11 but according to you did so without cultural context.
Paul specifically uses the order of creation as the basis for his argument which is universal in scope; void of any local cultural context which is contrary to your claim.
 
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Oldmantook

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Sure.

Genesis 1:27
"God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."

James 3:8-9
"But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God..."

Both bear God's image.

Do you think one bears His image without glory? You're also going to have problems if James 3:9 applies to non-believers because then you're going to have to explain how unregenerate males bear God's glory but regenerate women do not.
Of course men and women in general both bear God's image. BUT IN THE CONTEXT of praying and prophesying in the congregation, Paul states that the woman is the glory of man.
 
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F.E.A.R.

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I would say that whether single or married, women should use head coverings (I mean they can take them off when they please), because it shows modesty from a woman's side, combine it with cloths that are not revealing, you don't get unwanted attention and you're keeping a low profile. Besides women with head coverings look beautiful (not a fetishist).

I'm aware that you're not an Orthodox Christian but I suggest you read this article Women’s Headcovering's
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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I would say that whether single or married, women should use head coverings (I mean they can take them off when they please), because it shows modesty from a woman's side, combine it with cloths that are not revealing, you don't get unwanted attention and you're keeping a low profile. Besides women with head coverings look beautiful (not a fetishist).

I'm aware that you're not an Orthodox Christian but I suggest you read this article Women’s Headcovering's
F.E.A.R.Lord Inquisitor I hesitate to take any advise from the inquisition.
 
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F.E.A.R.

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F.E.A.R.Lord Inquisitor I hesitate to take any advise from the inquisition.
Well then since you refuse what the Inquisition says, by the Emperor, you're condemned and your judgement shall be death!
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Well then since you refuse what the Inquisition says, by the Emperor, you're condemned and your judgement shall be death!
Perhaps there be a flight (stiletto’s to the wind) to the new world via Christopher to ‘splain the plainess of said charges?
 
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Josheb

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Read the text. It distinguishes between men.
I wasn't speaking about 1 Corinthians 11. I was speaking about the reasonableness of your commentary. You, not the Bible, said "God's glory is made manifest when the men leave their heads uncovered while the women do the opposite..." but that is not what the 1 Corinthians 11 text ever states. You made that up. You added that to the scripture.

And I am telling you that's bad because it leads to a variety of irrational conclusions beginning with the fact Christians worship God 24/7. The few hours we may congregate don't come with special rules we don't have to apply outside of the Sunday service. The reality of creation is that God's glory is made manifest in every act of God, not man. Men who glorify through faith and obedience do so wherever they are, not just in Corinth when they do or do not wear hats.

It is irrational.

And the correct response is, "Yes, I do understand we can manifest God's glory everywhere we go whether in church or out, whether males of females, married or single because it is God Who manifests His glory through us, not we who manifest God's glory by wearing hats."

But that's not what we're reading in response. You think my comment was about 1 Cor. 11. You didn't think.
So explain to me why men don't have to cover their heads and women have to cover theirs? Paul is making a logical case which you are free to ignore. It specifically states the man ought not to cover his head because he is the image/glory of God. The woman is the glory of man thus she ought to cover her head (v.10). Read the text.
I already did that.

Because you apparently didn't read that post in its entirety and give it some actual thought and because you've posted unscriptural and illogical nonsense after nonsense, you and I are done. Next time try starting a conversation with something other than baseless accusations as unscriptural and irrational nonsense.



You ask for an explanation as to why men don't have to cover their heads and women do. The facts of 1 Corinthians 11 are plain: women don't have to cover their heads. The coverings mentioned in 1 Corinthians 11 are ONLY for prayer and prophesy, not all women at all times, not all women in the worship service in general, not women outside the worship service, not women outside the faith. Christian women in Corinth when they pray and prophesy; that is what is specified. Later in that very same letter Paul stated, "The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak..." Reason asks, if they are silent how then can they prophesy? But unreasonable irrational, unscriptural men read these text incorrectly and demand women wear hats and be silent anytime they are in church. It is perverse legalism that has nothing to do with God and nothing to do with what Paul was writing. What Paul was writing cannot be made to conflict with precedents of Miriam, Deborah, the Proverbs 31 wife, the first witnesses of the resurrection, Lydia, or Priscilla - all women who lead in one way or another over men. The details of Paul's directives in 1 Corinthians 11 are limited, not universal. When applied in principle they have application for all (not just women). Paul states, "we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God," yet nowhere do we ever read Jesus or any NT writer ever directing women to wear hats and veils and nowhere do we read of this problem in any other local congregation. It's happening only in Corinth. Did Corinth contain especially contentious women? Who knows but we know you won't have an answer because you say there's nothing in 1 Cor. 11 about culture.

But you, Oldmantook, haven't thought it through because the cultural context isn't just ignored; it is denied, along with much of what is actually stated in light of whole scripture (such as the image of God in women).

Instead of asking me to explain something to you what you ought to be doing is confessing both your mistake(s) and the attitude that drove it because I was asked where women bear the image of God and I showed you. The only correct response to that is, "My bad. Thank you for showing me those scriptures. I'll adjust my thinking, my doctrine(s), and my practice accordingly."


But that is not what we're reading.


So you don't get to ask me foolish questions and post non sequiturs until you deal with the contents already posted. I'll even give you a starting place a place on which we both appear to agree: The 1 Corinthians 11 text specifies prayer and prophesying. It specifies women praying and prophesying. Nothing more.

Can you acknowledge that much and build from there?

If not then don't expect further replies because your posts have been shown to be both unscriptural and irrational.
 
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Josheb

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Paul specifically uses the order of creation as the basis for his argument which is universal in scope; void of any local cultural context which is contrary to your claim.
Yes, Paul does reference Genesis 1 and 2 but there's no mention of "the order of creation." No mention whatsoever. You made that up (I understand that you personally didn't make it up; I understand this is a common way of viewing the passage). You've added something nowhere stated to the text. What Paul does write is, "For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God." This can be simplified to say, "the first female came from a male and all subsequent males come from women." That's an observable fact of both scripture and biology and as long as you stick to the facts of scripture I'm in complete agreement with you.

The problem with you "order of creation" is the fact Eve was made from the rib, not the head or the two. The only reason her husband rules over her and her desire is contrary to his (Gen. 3:16) is because of Genesis 3:7. Sin is the cause of that condition, not the order in which God made the sexes! Surely you're not suggesting Paul is asserting a sinful order. You should have checked the order of creation before appealing to it because you got that wrong, too.

Paul then appeals to nature: "Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him...?" Whole scripture causes us to as whether Samson's hair was a dishonor to God. It prompts us to ask why God had the Nazirites live unshorn.

Numbers 6:1-8
"Again the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2“Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When a man or woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to dedicate himself to the LORD, 3he shall abstain from wine and strong drink; he shall drink no vinegar, whether made from wine or strong drink, nor shall he drink any grape juice nor eat fresh or dried grapes. 4‘All the days of his separation he shall not eat anything that is produced by the grape vine, from the seeds even to the skin. 5‘All the days of his vow of separation no razor shall pass over his head. He shall be holy until the days are fulfilled for which he separated himself to the LORD; he shall let the locks of hair on his head grow long. 6‘All the days of his separation to the LORD he shall not go near to a dead person. 7‘He shall not make himself unclean for his father or for his mother, for his brother or for his sister, when they die, because his separation to God is on his head. 8‘All the days of his separation he is holy to the LORD."

For the Nazirite his long hair is part of what made him holy!

Just like women? :eek::rolleyes:;)

Paul cannot be construed to be contradicting God. He cannot be interpreted to say all long hair is dishonorable. In the hands of legalists this leads to crew cuts and shaved heads because who is to decide how long is long? How long is dishonorable? Is it two inches? Three inches? Five? Six? Where is the exact standard of hair length found in the Bible, Oldmantook?

I challenge you to show me a Bible passage asserting long hair on a woman as the basis of her glory. I challenge you to show us a verse or a passage (preferably) that states a woman hair is "given to her for a covering," and explains why that is from God's pov. I challenge you to show me and the rest of the readers here any commentary on 1 Cor. 11 that does not appeal to culture. If you do surf the commentaries (both theological tomes and websites you're going to find a a lot of appeals to culture, some of it correct and some of it just plain wrong.

The fact is Paul was likely referencing rabbinical writing, not Tanakh and not something Jesus ever taught.

Lastly, take a look at the word, "glory." The Greek word used in 1 Cor. 11 is "doxa," and it simply means honor or renown. In the religious sense it carries with it the special meaning of divine quality, the unspoken manifestation of God, splendor. It's at the basis of our English word doxology. You'll note that nowhere does Paul say hair has anything to do with God's glory. He says "man is the glory of God;" he does NOT say, "man's short hair is the glory of God." He writes the hair is the respective glory of the men and women, not God. There's a marked, undeniable distinction being made between the glory of God and the glory of the male and female humans. That is what is actually written.

Let us not forget the two specified conditions for wearing head coverings: prayer and prophesy. It should not be neglected that in a very short time Paul will tell this exact same congregation, "But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation." (1 Cor. 14:3). In other words, these women who were prophesying in Corinth were speaking edification, exhortation, and consolation to men.

Gotta wear a hat.

There are many female prophesiers in the Bible. Do you read mention of any of them wearing a head covering?



This isn't rocket science. A proper examination of God's word - God whole word - will get us a long way to understanding what Paul was writing about in 1 Corinthians 11 and it was not to say all females must always wear head coverings whenever they are in worship meetings because they are all subordinate creatures in comparison to males. That's just wrong.
 
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Junia

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There is not a single reference to "cultural reference" whatsoever in the text. You have eisegeted the text. In 1 Corinthians 11, Paul specifically wrote that the basis for his view on head coverings is the order of creation which is timeless and universal in scope - not cultural.

The head of the man who is praying/prophesying requires that it be uncovered since his head reflects the image/glory of God (v.7). Therefore to cover his head would be to cover up the image and glory of God - which should always be paramount and made manifest. God's glory is never to be put under a cover. However, women are to cover their heads since the woman is the glory of man. When the church composed of men and women gather to pray and prophesy, God's glory is made manifest when the men leave their heads uncovered while the women do the opposite and cover their head since the woman reflects the glory of man (v.7). In the hierarchical scheme of creation, man's glory is always subordinate to God's glory when the church gathers to pray and prophesy. This also serves as a witness and reminder to the angels (v.10). For the woman however, her long hair is her glory (v.15). That is why she is to wear a head covering since her glory must be covered up. V.15 is a contentious verse as some interpret this verse as the basis for claiming that a woman's long hair is her covering. The verse reads:

"But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her, for her hair is given her for a covering."

The word "for" in this verse is from the Greek "anti' (as in antichrist) which means in exchange for or instead of, in place of. Thus I believe the verse should read:
"But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her, for her hair is given her instead of a covering."

Again, since long hair is a woman's glory, she is to wear a head covering to cover up her glory while praying/prophesying in the congregation. The man on the other hand, his head remains uncovered while praying/prophesying in the congregation since his head reflects the glory of God./

as my hair isn't really long, is it stil my glory? it goes just below my chin length?
 
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Josheb

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Of course men and women in general both bear God's image.
Yep. And yet I was asked where in scripture that was stated.
BUT IN THE CONTEXT of praying and prophesying in the congregation, Paul states that the woman is the glory of man.
Now you're contradicting yourself. Earlier that was attributed to the order of creation. Now it's being attributed to the context of chapter 11.


Go back and re-read my exegesis of 1 Corinthians 11 (post #27), Oldmantook, because I explicitly stated the wearing of head coverings was limited to prayer and prophesy.

Why are you arguing with me as if I didn't already state that? Why are you quote mining one aspect of that post and ignoring everything else written? Why are you ignoring the places of agreement? Why are you wasting everyone's time posting content already addressed and already agreed upon as if that's not the case?
 
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Junia

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i do know the rule about men not having long hair was purely cultural for the times, because nowadays it is not culturally a shame for aman to have long hair (not n Britain anyway though i cannot speak for all cultures). i think that is why i thought the hair covering thing was also just cultural? but am seeing it is more complex than mere culture
 
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ADVISOR HAT ON


Hey everyone. Just a reminder that Christian Advice is not a debate area. You don’t have to like or agree with other’s input. Just move along. We don’t want to have to implement thread bans.

But we will.


ADVISOR HAT OFF
 
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Junia

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I wasn't speaking about 1 Corinthians 11. I was speaking about the reasonableness of your commentary. You, not the Bible, said "God's glory is made manifest when the men leave their heads uncovered while the women do the opposite..." but that is not what the 1 Corinthians 11 text ever states. You made that up. You added that to the scripture.

And I am telling you that's bad because it leads to a variety of irrational conclusions beginning with the fact Christians worship God 24/7. The few hours we may congregate don't come with special rules we don't have to apply outside of the Sunday service. The reality of creation is that God's glory is made manifest in every act of God, not man. Men who glorify through faith and obedience do so wherever they are, not just in Corinth when they do or do not wear hats.

It is irrational.

And the correct response is, "Yes, I do understand we can manifest God's glory everywhere we go whether in church or out, whether males of females, married or single because it is God Who manifests His glory through us, not we who manifest God's glory by wearing hats."

But that's not what we're reading in response. You think my comment was about 1 Cor. 11. You didn't think.

I already did that.

Because you apparently didn't read that post in its entirety and give it some actual thought and because you've posted unscriptural and illogical nonsense after nonsense, you and I are done. Next time try starting a conversation with something other than baseless accusations as unscriptural and irrational nonsense.



You ask for an explanation as to why men don't have to cover their heads and women do. The facts of 1 Corinthians 11 are plain: women don't have to cover their heads. The coverings mentioned in 1 Corinthians 11 are ONLY for prayer and prophesy, not all women at all times, not all women in the worship service in general, not women outside the worship service, not women outside the faith. Christian women in Corinth when they pray and prophesy; that is what is specified. Later in that very same letter Paul stated, "The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak..." Reason asks, if they are silent how then can they prophesy? But unreasonable irrational, unscriptural men read these text incorrectly and demand women wear hats and be silent anytime they are in church. It is perverse legalism that has nothing to do with God and nothing to do with what Paul was writing. What Paul was writing cannot be made to conflict with precedents of Miriam, Deborah, the Proverbs 31 wife, the first witnesses of the resurrection, Lydia, or Priscilla - all women who lead in one way or another over men. The details of Paul's directives in 1 Corinthians 11 are limited, not universal. When applied in principle they have application for all (not just women). Paul states, "we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God," yet nowhere do we ever read Jesus or any NT writer ever directing women to wear hats and veils and nowhere do we read of this problem in any other local congregation. It's happening only in Corinth. Did Corinth contain especially contentious women? Who knows but we know you won't have an answer because you say there's nothing in 1 Cor. 11 about culture.

But you, Oldmantook, haven't thought it through because the cultural context isn't just ignored; it is denied, along with much of what is actually stated in light of whole scripture (such as the image of God in women).

Instead of asking me to explain something to you what you ought to be doing is confessing both your mistake(s) and the attitude that drove it because I was asked where women bear the image of God and I showed you. The only correct response to that is, "My bad. Thank you for showing me those scriptures. I'll adjust my thinking, my doctrine(s), and my practice accordingly."


But that is not what we're reading.


So you don't get to ask me foolish questions and post non sequiturs until you deal with the contents already posted. I'll even give you a starting place a place on which we both appear to agree: The 1 Corinthians 11 text specifies prayer and prophesying. It specifies women praying and prophesying. Nothing more.

Can you acknowledge that much and build from there?

If not then don't expect further replies because your posts have been shown to be both unscriptural and irrational.


am pretty sure that teh women keeping silent was for that specific church or those times. actually , paul says churches plural, so praibably more than one church. women did not have the rights that we do today and it may have been that women speaking in church would have caused the new christian men who had been either in Jewish or Pagan cultures prior to salvation, to rol their eyes and cause the women preaching to not be taken seriously?

nowadays we have women preachers and pastors so i believe that was more for those times. the church i go to has the idea that women can teach mixed congregations not just women;s hosue groups or conferences or children at sunday school, but that it is wrong for a woman to usurp the authority of men in leadership above her. we are also taught wives are under the protection of their husbands so submit to them, and husbands love and care for their wives but it isn't really so much about a hierachy as teamwork because marriage always is about honouring the other person's needs first, wherever possible. marriage is give give give and sometimes we have to set our own wants aside for our partners and that goes fo either sex.
 
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even if in marriage, it means that the husband does have the final say if there is a conflict of interest.
The husband is supposed to love his wife as Christ loves the Church. Hubby is not the god and ruler of the marriage. But I’m not sure what this has to do with head covering.
 
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