Sorry.
JOYFULLY YHWH says very clearly. (sorry is that perhaps tradition is wrong, as usual).
In english it is never translated as far as I know.
HEBREW IS WONDERFUL if you are able to learn it or to receive revelation from YHWH (HE KNOWS WHAT HE HAD WRITTEN).
I don't recall God saying specifically that the serpent was Satan.
So, do you want to try and change HIM
like man with many traditions did ?
How is showing what God specifically did "trying to change Him"? If anything I'm pointing out the aspects that people tend to ignore, and ignoring those points is much more "trying to change God".
You talk about Satan not doing much in the Old Testament "except Job" but take a closer look at the ending of that story: Job 42:11 So even here it is "all that evil that the Lord brought upon him" and God never dodges responsibility for evil things happening. He allows it all. But, in Job, the Lord shows up in a whirlwind, to show Job that, although there's this which looks like, chaos and random fury; He is actually within it, directing it according to His purpose. Life, death, joy, pain, all in His hand and being used, like a smith uses a forge to forge a sword; or a potter using the kiln, or, an artificer using the seething fire to purge the gold of impurity.
I'm glad that you're acknowledging that aspect. What I meant by "Satan didn't do much except in Job" was that it's the only time where it's stated Satan was doing things, though as you pointed out, he did it according to God's will. God does both good and evil.
Now consider that natural death, is just a trasnformation. It's not the end, but the door through which all must pass at the end of this life. And all die a natural death. So the Lord not only commanded the deaths of many many people, but even commands the death of every, single thing that has ever passed through this world. Right?
True, death happens, but note the topic of the video is when God specifically commands or commits people being killed, which is different from "natural death".
But, all of these things are His working according to a divine purpose which is aimed at, purification, and, growth. Just like it takes fire to cause new growth in a forest, or in the purging of a tree for new growth. The same is going on here. The purpose of God is in this world to teach us, to further create us spiritually, to exercise us, to create in us a righteous spirit. If a child dies, it hits us hard. It creates a spirit of compassion in us. It intensifies our care for others. You know how, when there is some great calamity, the people all come together, knit together in unity, performing great feats of compassion and caring. Such as in the aftermath of a hurricane, or tsunami, or earthquake: compassion runs deeper. We feel deeper. We empathize more deeply. Our diversities disappear into unity.
So then all people face these things every day, all of the time, sometimes in greater concentration than others. But all of these hardships are all working together: changing us, strengthening us, bringing out the greater good in us. This same is true of God, in all these things. Now, I can be no means know the proverbial "butterfly effects" of these great disasters in the bible. But I know in my heart and mind that these things - terrible as they are - are done for the sole purpose of creating within the human race greater love, care, empathy, unity, etc.
But death is a freedom from this place, this proving grounds; and all will be resurrected in the end. So all of those people really experienced nothing greater than what we all experience in this life. All at the hand of God. But God is love - and yes, we might say, tough love - and He will put His hand upon us, and press: He will put us in the fire, and blow; but all to the intent of good; just as a parent disciplines the child. Life here can be brutal, and tragic: but out of that comes the creation of a loving spirit in us, an empathic and unified spirit that understands the terrible nature of loss, and how infinitely important we all are to one another. Do you understand what I mean?
And also consider this: God's love for us is infinite, and you know the saying "This hurts me more than it hurts you"? Well, consider that every living thing is so precious to God, that He Himself experiences more pain in their suffering than they do themselves: because the empathy of God is likewise infinite. So when He commanded death, He, Himself, also bears the pain of that death. Every time one hurts, He hurts. But He endures for our sake, as we endure for the sake of others. Luke 12:6-7
If anyone knows how terribly hard and painful this all is, it is God that knows it to the fullest. After all, He suffered in all things, and as well was scourged, and mocked and spat upon, and nailed to a tree being guiltless.
What it sounds like you're saying this that suffering is basically only in existence just to make us more empathetic. That seems to imply you're saying that without suffering, we have less empathy and understanding.
Empathy helps us to understand others and pull through hardships. If we can only grow through suffering, and in heaven there'a no suffering, does that mean there's no opportunities to grow in heaven?
It's not a case of frustration that hardships exist at all, it's baffling to me that God would directly cause chaos and suffering by ordering people to kill others or striking them down on his own.
And as for the "This hurts me more than it hurts you" thing, or bearing pain, when people say those things, they feel there's not another way due to their limited circumstances. God, however, doesn't have to worry about limitations, so he could easily come up with another way that didn't command the Israelites to kill other people.
Where in Scripture does it say he commanded Israel to kill anyone just to show themselves better than someone else?
Miswording there on my part, I meant killing people to show that God is just more powerful than anyone and He's only with the Israelites:
1 Kings 20:28
And a man of God came near and said to the king of Israel, “Thus says the Lord, ‘Because the Syrians have said, “The Lord is a god of the hills but he is not a god of the valleys,” therefore I will give all this great multitude into your hand, and you shall
know that I am the Lord.’”
Then, as I said, you do not understand human depravity as expressed in Scripture.
Then, again, you don't understand human depravity as expressed in Scripture.
Of course! The fact that he did is called grace.
Again, you clearly do not understand human depravity—its scope or depth—as it is clearly taught in Scripture. Just because not everyone does the same things does not mean that everyone is not equally evil. Scripture declares, "There is no one righteous, not even one. There is no one who does what is good, not even one (Rom. 3:10, 12). Goodness means absolutely nothing outside of faith in Christ (Heb. 11:6), so "trying to be as good as you can" is worthless outside of Christ. Furthermore, Scripture declares that our damnation (and, by logical inference, our corruption) is "by nature" (Eph. 2:3). We can balk at it, but it is there, plain as day.
Face it, it is God's grace that anyone is allowed to live after the Fall. We are all rebels deserving of death outside of Christ. Everyone who dies—whether in the Old Testament or New—fully deserves it. You deserve it. I deserve it. The fact that we are amazed that God kills some people shows that we have far too high a view of the human condition, and likely far too low a view of God's perfection and justice.
Regarding that quote from Romans, there was a thread on here I saw a few days ago that mentioned how Paul was misquoting OT Scripture, putting a few parts of Old Teatament verses together when, separated in the OT context, it was talking of how no one is righteous in specific populations, Paul just quote mined and strung it all together to give the view that no one at all is righteous.
As for all humans being depraved and evil, then why create us in the first place? Can you honestly look at a friend, or a family member, who you've only known as being kind, and say straight to them "You are an evil depraved creature who deserves to be tortured forever"? Seeing humanity as being inherently evil beings who deserve hell is basically that. And I highly doubt you'd be willing to say that to anyone you're close to.
That's not the way God has chosen to restore what was lost in the rebellion. He is orchestrating a re-creation of events that occurred in the angelic realm, beginning with the rebellion of Eve, which pictures the rebellion of the one known as Lucifer. Many if not most of those that perished in the OT period likely were demon influenced or outright possessed, a state which God allowed for his purpose. Of course they may come up in the white throne judgment period along with Israel. God isn't willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentance. This might include those killed back then.
Lucifer wasn't even a rebellious angel that became Satan, if the entire passage is read beyond Isiah 14:12-15 that I see endlessly quoted, it's clear that it's a proverb taken up against the king of Babylon, referring to how he saw himself as having immense power but would fall like any other human. Lucifer is also a translation of Morning Star, and Jesus called himself the Morning Star one, and Jesus is certainly not Satan.
And if God'a purpose was for those people to be demonically possessed, doesn't that imply that God'a in charge of demons? Well he did send a "spirit of ill will" and a "lying spirit" before...
"We" do not know.
"I" with the rest of ecclesia who know, know.
"You" said you do not know.
So you're saying you know something for certain about Scripture that I don't know? Fine, let me rephrase that: how do you know at least parts of Scripture aren't wrong?
Where have you lived all your life ?
People all over the world have been viciously KILLING PEOPLE (and likewise more and more TO EXTINCTION animals and fish and birds and insects)
FOR OVER 2000 YEARS , EVERY YEAR.
(This year and next year and the next year too - already planned and being carried out).
(Every year since wwII also, and all the years before that as well.)
i.e. mankind in the NEW TESTAMENT and since then
are evil and wicked throughout all the world
just like before the NEW TESTAMENT.
And getting much more evil every day, just as it is written.
I should have been more clear—does slavery still happen today? Yes. Does murder still happen? Yes. What I meant is that large groups of people who follow Yahweh no longer kill/assault/enslave people because God told them to.
And ever think that it might seem like the world is so much more evil than in the Bible because these days we know more of what's going on in other parts of the world right away?
It was a talking snake. How many of those have you seen in the Zoo reptile house?
The point is that Eden is a story telling of how the spirit of rebelliousness cause man to fall.
Satan is the spirit of rebelliousness.
Well why did God say "Upon your belly you shall crawl, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life" if the snake was actually Satan? If it were, God might have said, "Out from the serpent I command you to go, and cast you out of heaven to remain on the Earth". The wording wouldn't make sense if it was Satan, especially since, if we assume Satan can take other forms, he could just as easily transform into something else and therefore render God'a judgement pointless.
The question in the OP "How Many Has God Killed?" reminds me of the question asked when driving by a large cemetery where someone inevitably wonders, "Just how may dead people are buried in that cemetery anyway?"
The answer is, of course, "All of them!".
God created death as the ultimate mercy for a fallen humanity. Death places a limit on how much evil we can do, how much evil we have to endure.
Without death, evil and sin would be eternal states of being, a literal living hell.
"In those days people will seek death, but they won't find it. They will want to die, but death will run away from them."
Be careful what you wish for. It might just come true.
It's not a matter of questioning God having people's lives end naturally, it's more of all the commands of genocide as shown in the video.
I meant the leaders of nataions:
Revelation 1:9-11
9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna,Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis,Philadelphia and Laodicea
Those churches do not exist anymore as they did in John's day, and it was meant specifically for them. It was not said to "send it across the whole world as a vision for the far future" but sent to those church leaders.
Yeah, it was just a talking snake who just happened to overhear the conversation between God and Adam and decided, in his little snake brain, to mess up what God created as what?.....some kind of joke?
There is far to many wrong things in your post to address here....I suggest you have a long talk with your priest or attend some sort of adult SS class in your parish....
To reiterate what I said above: why did God say "Upon your belly you shall crawl, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life" if the snake was actually Satan? If it were, God might have said, "Out from the serpent I command you to go, and cast you out of heaven to remain on the Earth". The wording wouldn't make sense if it was Satan, especially since, if we assume Satan can take other forms, he could just as easily transform into something else and therefore render God'a judgement to crawl on the ground invalid, as it would seem to imply it's a judgement on all snakes if it was assumed to have legs before..
YouTube is really not a valid reference.
God is the Creator of the universe. He is holy, perfect, righteous and just. He can do with His creation as He sees fit according to the counsel of His own will, not man's will. God never consulted man when He created the universe. God's justice and righteous wrath against sin is never a contradiction with His love, grace and mercy.
You have no ground on which to judge God. Like the rest of us, you are a mere, finite creature, attempting to judge a holy, infinite and eternal God.
Keep in mind all the references in that YouTube video were in the Bible. So the Bible is the resource in this case, not just YouTube.
Saying "God created us so he can do as he wants" never sat well with me. If your parents command you to kill your siblings or neighbors, would you do it because without your parents you wouldn't be here and thus you have no right to question them
And if you're saying "Who are you to judge God", why? What's wrong about trying to understand God, or should we not even try to understand? Why is it a bad thing to ask questions?
Problem 1:
> What has Satan done exactly that makes him the king of Evil? If we look at the history of the world or man in general, and see the amount of killings such as the times of BC, the Dark ages, WW1, WW2, US terrorism in the Middle East, the ISIS and random terrorists, random domestic violence and animal cruelty. All of that is by man's doing, unless we really want to play the scapegoat game by continuing to believe "the devil tempted me to do it" then there is no logical way that Satan is the king of evil. Mankind clearly took that title from him a long time ago.
If it is true that Satan's biggest reason for leaving God was because he hated man (as to what Islam believes: Satan refusing to bow down to humans), how can you blame him?
> This can go with God as well: What has God done that makes him all Good? The feeding of the homeless, the rescuing of victims, human rights to animal rights, curing of the sick, equality towards people of different races, gender, sexual orientations, etc... Man mostly did this.
Problem 2: Man's sinning causing the world to be what it is.
Our world is broken all because of man sinning. Thing is, it is also believed that Satan was an angel (as popularly taught by Christianity) who fell from heaven because of rebelling against God. Why didn't heaven change and become just as broken as the earth if that is the case? I mean, sin actually happened there too maybe even prior to sin entering the earth yet it's still the perfect place.
If Satan -an angel- was able to sin, then how are we so sure that the other angels or even the saints like Mary... are still up there after all these thousands of years?
Why did we get affected by Adam and Eve's sin when we were never in the garden in the first place? That's their fault, not mine. For mankind to be cursed all because of what Adam and Eve did kinda questions the whole "just God" argument. Would you condemn a random white kid outside because of the fact that his ancestors probably took Black's as slaves? Should a child be condemned by the sins of his parents (or ancestors that existed thousands of years before he did)?
I've been wondering pretty much every single one of these things.
I agree.
I may differ in the source of the contamination of the DNA and bloodline. But that is another story.
The fact is that "all flesh was corrupted". This was Satan's plan to destroy the pure human bloodline so that the messiah could not exist.
After the flood, the impurity showed it's face again. Like you said, from the wives of Noah's sons. However, it was much more diluted now and could be handled....
This is why there was a need for genocides. God was preserving the pure human bloodline.
From the time of the fall to the coming of Christ, Satan's goal was to stop the possibility of a pure human savior.
At the time of Christ, Satan tried to get Christ to sin by tempting Him.
After Christs arrest, Satan tried all he could to contradict the prophecies of Christ by killing Christ before the cross, breaking a bone or goading Christ into talking. Any of these would contradict scripture regarding the messiah.
Now that Christ has became our savior all that Satan can do is try to convince people that Christ was just a man, God doesn't exist, Satan doesn't exist, the Bible isn't the real truth...... anything that can keep you from believing in Christ, the scripture and how easy it is to be saved as well as the fact that there is nobody that cannot be saved.
Basically, now Satan just wants you to go to hell.
Where in the Bible is it said that Satan wanted to destroy the pure human bloodline? Earliest direct mention of Satan is in Job.
Satan is like joke. He can't do much and unless God allows. Of course he kill little little. He's not God.
But God is above all. All power with him. He will destroy WHOLE WORLD.
That's why Bible says, must be afraid from God!!!!
It's love. Because, all die anyway. This way or that way. ALL DIE. God's love is to make history according His plan. Millions dead from God ? It's OK - He is all power in this world.
It's important, He is showing people His live in Jesus. Because SPIRITUAL DETH sooo much worse then phyzical
So from what I understand in your comment, you're saying that no matter what God does is okay just because he created everything?
Blind post.
God has a unique prerogative as the Giver and Sustainer of Life also to be its Taker. Why should He not? All that is emanates from, and depends entirely upon, Him. If God ceased to exist in the next moment, so would everything else. In light of this, why do we puzzle over the fact that God ends life as well as begins it? All life is fundamentally and profoundly His - however much we may feel our life is our own and ought to be free from any and all divine imposition.
Satan cannot kill just as he wishes. He has no more power over life than God permits him. It is not surprising, then, that he does not act in matters of life and death with the same independence and unilaterality that God exerts. It is God who ultimately establishes our beginning and end, not the devil. Why, then, is it disturbing to see God do so? He does no wrong in ending what He brought into being, of destroying what He has created. Killing is God's divine right.
Make no mistake, however: the devil has lured billions into eternal hell. He may not himself have appeared in the street with a sword and started massacring people, but he is just as guilty of causing countless deaths. The Bible tells us he was a "murderer from the beginning." (Jn. 8:44) He is the "thief" who "comes not but to steal, and to kill, and to destroy" (Jn. 10:10), the "roaring lion" who "walks about seeking whom he may devour." (1 Pe. 5:8) The Bible is not about him, however, but God. You wouldn't expect to find the story of Caesar in a biography of Napolean, would you? So it is that we read much of God's doings in Scripture and relatively little of the devil's. Is it any surprise, then, that when we compare what is written of God in the Bible with what is written of the devil, in every respect God is vastly more represented - even in the matter of bringing His creatures to their physical end? We shouldn't, therefore, attempt to make comparisons between the doings of the two from a document that is preoccupied primarily with doings of only One.
Selah.
Keep in mind that the mention of the devil doing those things was in the NT, never the Old. And regarding "God created us so he can take our lives as he wishes", think of it this way: imagine you're a scientist, who found a way to create some sort of being, that you then create more like it. The being is completely sentient, has its own will and its own personality. Would you force some to kill the others, or kill a few with a sickness, and say it's okay because you created them and thus it's okay to do whatever you want to them?
By what I know, there is no petty reason. Bible tells clearly what the reason will be and it is not belief:
If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him….
John 12:47-48
The judgment is by this:
This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21
And it is about righteousness:
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
And I understand righteousness is like right understanding and attitude that makes person do good and right things freely, because they understand it is good and it means for example this:
He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10
I believe, if person is not righteous, he doesn’t love as God has commanded and it would cause eternal suffering for all, if allowed to continue forever. That is why it is acceptable reason to end unrighteous life.
True there are some people who cause suffering for others, but that's not on anywhere near the same level as God commanding the Israelites to kill all the men and women and little children.
Read all the passages. Much of slavery was just a form of apprenticeship, or a long-term employment contract.
What God CAN do and what He wants to do are not the same. If God makes us do something (even realize things that Jesus will later show us), we become robots and not willing servants. The groundwork for Jesus to later communicate God's friendship to us, would be lost.
I don't thank anyone in ancient times ever wrote against the horrors of war or slavery. (Aristotle for example, considers slavery a less than perfect form of apprenticeship. And Sparta and Rome were both founded on war making ability.) The question you are asking in the OP could not be asked until Jesus revealed more to us of love. It still comes down to development in the human mind to communicate certain realities, and that had to wait for Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
There was also the passage that if a man beats a slave and the slave dies right away they'all be punished, but if the slave dies 3 days later it's okay because the slave is his property.
And if God can do everything, why would it not be the same as what he wants? There are points in Scripture that say everything is done by God.
No it's not. Not even close. If 'all life' is a product of God's creation, then like any 'creator', the 'creation' is subject to the 'creator'. Your limited understanding of life does not compare to the reality that God understands. Is it cruel to offer a 'gift' and then take it back if it was offered with conditions and those conditions are not met? In other words, if I give you something for a specific purpose and you attempt to use in a 'different' way, if I have the power is it cruel for me to take it back for your misusing it? In truth, death is only significant to someone who has 'fallen in love with this world' to the point they can't imagine 'loosing it'. Death isn't a 'bad thing', it's as much as part of life as 'birth'. You have chosen to view death from a completely different perspective than what it actually is. You see death as 'cruel'. Yet what you should see is that the gift of LIFE is love and it doesn't matter what quantity you have been given.
Don't think for a second that I do not understand your comments. I do. I just don't agree with them from a Biblical perspective. There is more to the Bible than a 'story'. There is very deep understanding offered. But not all will find it. Not all will even listen when it is explained. For some are only concerned with their own perspective and that leaves little room for anything else.
A parent that loves their children are often forced to say 'no' to their children's demands in order to protect and teach them. Is that cruel? If something you loved was damaged beyond repair and you KNEW it, would you let it suffer until it died or would you put it out of it's misery? And where does the equation of 'love' fit into this scenario?
Blessings,
MEC
It's not death itself that I say is cruel, it's the stuff shown the video where God commanded death or send plagues, that's much different from natural death.
And as for the created being subject to the creator, like above: say you create beings in a lab with sentience and a will. Would you justify forcing some to kill the others or infecting them with a plague on the grounds that you created them?
I know that some will say, "Oh, his ways are not our ways", but it's also said "You shall know them by their fruits", though if you take those verses into account...
