How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[EmSw]

If someone is provoked when their view is shown to be in error, that's not a violation.

Follow the advice on your avatar - chill out.

 

[EmSw]

That doesn't prove anything. Which you know.

Which is my point.

I'm wondering if you even know what choice is.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Wait, you've experienced being outside of time? Perhaps you misspoke.

I'm not picking up what you're laying down.

I don't believe that I misspoke along those lines. If I did - please show me where I said that I had experienced being outside of time.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz, what is it like to be a universalist?

Please tell me! I'm not one of them and never will be as it is not supported by the Bible. The problem, Menno, is that Calvinism cannot handle the reality of the content of 1 John 2:2 (ESV), 'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world'. That's because they don't accept that Jesus can die for the sins of all people and yet people need to have faith - to believe (Acts 16:31).

When the point of accepting by faith the Lord Jesus Christ is distorted by Calvinism to make it unconditional election and irresistible grace, there can be no acceptance of what 1 John 2:2 (ESV) actually states.

Oz

 

[MennoSota]

I'm not picking up what you're laying down.

I don't believe that I misspoke along those lines. If I did - please show me where I said that I had experienced being outside of time.

You wrote:
God is both inside of time as we experience it and outside of time as we experience it.

Do you experience life outside of time?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Please tell me! I'm not one of them and never will be as it is not supported by the Bible. The problem, Menno, is that Calvinism cannot handle the reality of the content of 1 John 2:2 (ESV), 'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world'. That's because they don't accept that Jesus can die for the sins of all people and yet people need to have faith - to believe (Acts 16:31).

When the point of accepting by faith the Lord Jesus Christ is distorted by Calvinism to make it unconditional election and irresistible grace, there can be no acceptance of what 1 John 2:2 (ESV) actually states.

Oz

Preach Oz!
1 John 2:2 (ESV),
'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world'

 

[OzSpen]

It was mainly a rhetorical question. But I have heard atheists give this description of the Gospel, some of them were brought up in a Calvinist church and others who were seekers studying religions.

I don't know of any Calvinist who gave such an honest view of what Calvinism says when they preached or shared the Gospel as you created in #488. Actually the first time I heard the Gospel is was from a Calvinist on a one to one bases. That person didn't share with me what they really believed.

When a Calvinistic evangelist doesn't share what he/she really believes about whether you can be saved, I find that to be dishonest.

 

[OzSpen]

You've made up stuff.

What stuff?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Are you stating that God is held to time or are you asking if God is held to time?

I am stating that God IS NOT held to time as we experience it on earth.

 

[MennoSota]

Please tell me! I'm not one of them and never will be as it is not supported by the Bible. The problem, Menno, is that Calvinism cannot handle the reality of the content of 1 John 2:2 (ESV), 'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world'. That's because they don't accept that Jesus can die for the sins of all people and yet people need to have faith - to believe (Acts 16:31).

When the point of accepting by faith the Lord Jesus Christ is distorted by Calvinism to make it unconditional election and irresistible grace, there can be no acceptance of what 1 John 2:2 (ESV) actually states.

Oz

You realize that 1 John 2:2 was already discussed and shown to not be about the universal "all." Yet, you desperately want it to be a universal "all" because...why?

Ephesians 2 states that God gives faith as a gift. We can't manufacture it on our own power. If we could, we'd boast about it. Why do you desire to boast when God is the only one we can boast about?

 

[OzSpen]

Unless you're an open theist, you believe that God created people He knew would go to hell. Heaven and hell have fixed numbers.

I'm not an Open Theist. Yes, God created people whom he knew (in his foreknowledge) would end up in hell. But he didn't send them there through double-predestination.

Where does Scripture teach that heaven and hell have fixed numbers?

Oz

 

[ToBeLoved]

Which post? I must have missed it, although I've been waiting for it, so I'm not sure I could have missed it.

@MeenoSota did not answer my post twice. So now I am posting it again.

From page 36, post 702

Another question 'How do you explain the verse where God tells us that He knew us before we were?"

God is obviously referring to His Omniscience. The fact that past, present and future are all known to God. God is not under 'time' as time is known by us.

 

[Job8]

Did God make a mistake in Ephesians 1?

The epistle to the Ephesians has much to say about predestination. But it is speaking about the predestination of those who are foreknown to be the elect. Election is always according to foreknowledge, both in Romans and in 1 Peter. God knows exactly all those who will respond to the Gospel and be saved, and therefore He predestines them to be perfected and glorified in Christ.

Getting back to the issue of whether grace can be resisted, Scripture is very clear using the example of Israel and the Jews. Christ came to save all of Israel, yet most of the Jews resisted the grace of God (Acts 7:51-53). If that is not incontrovertible proof, then there can be no proof.

RESISTING GOD'S GRACE BY RESISTING THE HOLY SPIRIT
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

PERSECUTING AND KILLING THE PROPHETS AND BETRAYING AND MURDERING CHRIST A PROOF OF THIS RESISTANCE
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

FAILING TO KEEP THE LAW GIVEN BY GOD A PROOF OF THIS RESISTANCE
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

 

[OzSpen]

I agree. They can't come up with one term that Calvinists redefine.

This is bunk! We've shown you how Calvinists redefine 'all', 'any', 'whosoever', but you're not listenening.

Calvinists also distort the meaning of 'world'. See my articles,

• Calvinists squirming over the world

• How a Calvinist can distort the meaning of 2 Peter 3:9

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Every person falls short in understanding God. How can we not fall short.
Like Augustine before him, Calvin nailed the sovereignty of God in choosing who would be the children of God. History has proven this time and time again as humans read God's word. Pelagius and Arminius were shown to be entirely wrong. This is mainly because God's word is very clear on the matter.

This is a red herring. You failed to respond to what I wrote and invented what you wanted to talk about. I don't fall for that erroneous reasoning. We can't have a logical discussion when you engage in this kind of illogical thinking.

 

[OzSpen]

Who cares, you still miss the mark. Care to stay on topic?

Care to respond with logical thinking and not engage in logical fallacies so that WE CAN STAY ON TOPIC. Fallacious reasoning prevents logical discussion on any topic and you have fallen for that logical error.

 

[OzSpen]

You realize that 1 John 2:2 was already discussed and shown to not be about the universal "all." Yet, you desperately want it to be a universal "all" because...why?

Ephesians 2 states that God gives faith as a gift. We can't manufacture it on our own power. If we could, we'd boast about it. Why do you desire to boast when God is the only one we can boast about?

Now do the exact exegesis of Eph 2:8-10. Your interpretation here is incorrect according to the Greek exegesis.

 

[OzSpen]

You realize that 1 John 2:2 was already discussed and shown to not be about the universal "all." Yet, you desperately want it to be a universal "all" because...why?

Menno,

The fact is that Jesus died for all, everyone in the world, including the damned.

We know this from 2 Pet 2:1 (ESV), 'But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction'.

Whom did the Master buy?

• The false prophets;
• The false teachers who bring in destructive heresies (secretly);
  
• And he died for those who deny the Master;
• The result is that they bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Who brings upon the deniers of the Master destruction? They bring it 'upon themselves'. How can that be so if God predestines them to damnation? It can't be.

The Bible teachers that Jesus died for ALL and that includes those who will be eternally damned.

R C H Lenski's commentary on 2 Peter 2:1 is:

'But see II Pet. 2;1: the Lord bought even those who go to hell. "The whole world" [of 1 John 2:2] includes all men who ever lived or will live' (Lenski 1966:400).​

Oz

Works consulted
Lenski, R C H 1966. Commentary on the New Testament: The Interpretation of the Epistles of St. Peter, St. John, and St. Jude. Peabody, Mass: Hendrickson Publishers (originally Augsburg Publishing House).

 

[OzSpen]

@MeenoSota did not answer my post twice. So now I am posting it again.

From page 36, post 702

Another question 'How do you explain the verse where God tells us that He knew us before we were?"

God is obviously referring to His Omniscience. The fact that past, present and future are all known to God. God is not under 'time' as time is known by us.

We also see God's gracious omniscience in action in 1 Peter 1:1-2 (ESV):

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:

May grace and peace be multiplied to you.​

This is not unconditional election, but election according to God's foreknowledge. God knew who would believe.

We know that nobody can come to salvation without the Father's drawing power: 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day' (John 6:44 ESV).

Who can be drawn? Only the unconditionally elected? That's not what John 12:32 (ESV) states, 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”' Those are the words of Jesus to confirm that all people will be drawn to him after his crucifixion.

Oz

 

[MennoSota]

Now do the exact exegesis of Eph 2:8-10. Your interpretation here is incorrect according to the Greek exegesis.

Yawn...your greek is weak. [emoji41]