Saved by Grace + Christ's works (done in you) vs. Saved by Grace + evil works (being ignored)

[samir]

Samir, this portion of your post is incorrect in my opinion:

" The correct way of expressing the gospel is to say God's grace saves those who do good works, not that they are saved by grace + works."

Saying that God saves those who do good works is in direct opposition to Scripture. None of our works prior to salvation are "good", so they have nothing to do as to whether not God saves us. It is only the good works we do after salvation that matter, and these lay up rewards in Heaven for us.

Taken out of context, it sounds incorrect to me too. I agree that initial justification is by grace apart from any works (Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3, Acts 2:38). What I'm saying is those who have been justified by grace at conversion will only go to heaven if they continue to cooperate with that grace by doing good. We see this in John 5:28-29 where Jesus said, "the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." They are saved by grace, not by works, but God's grace will not save them unless they do good. If those who have been justified turn away from God and go back to living in sin and remain in that state until their death, they will not be saved.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Understood. I agree with #1 if understood correctly although I'd prefer "Believers who do good works are saved by grace" instead of "Believers are saved by grace + good works."

The reason is that although faith and works are necessary, neither will save anyone because salvation is by grace alone. They only save in the sense that God only saves those who have faith and works. It's like saying "Salvation is by grace + faith" instead of "Salvation is by grace alone through faith."

Not trying to nitpick and I'm sure you understand and agree with what I'm saying. I mention it because it can be misunderstood the way it's written.

Who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God?
Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the good work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

So no. I do not believe in Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. I believe if someone truly has accepted the LORD and Christ lives within them, then good fruit (And not bad fruit) will be evident in their life to prove that the One who is salvation itself abides within them (1 John 5:12). I believe James when he says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). This would be God directed works and not man directed works. But if you believe that our obedience to no Law (in any way) does not count towards our access to God's saving grace, I would have to disagree. 1 John 3:23 says, "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, " Acts 17:30 says God commands all men everywhere to repent. Besides Universalists, I know of no Christian today who claims to be saved without obeying at least one or both of these Commands. So yes. We are saved in part by our obedience to Commands from God. But did we do all the saving? No. Are we our own Saviors alone? No. That would be silly.

I think the best way to look at it is sort of like a person who is hanging on a cliff face and he needs to reach up to the person laying down on the edge of the cliff to grab their hand so as to be pulled up and be saved from potential death. The person who is pulling them up to safety (if they grab on) is the one who is ultimately saving them but yet, if the person who needs to be rescued did not grab the hand of the person who is seeking to save them and or they let go of the hand of the one pulling them up, they would fall down the cliff and die.

In other words, we have to respond and cooperate with abiding in Jesus who is the source of our salvation. This is not a one time cooperation in our lives by doing a Sinner's Prayer once, but it is an ongoing day by day decision to choose Jesus and obeying His good ways. I am not forced to do what He desires. I have to choose this day (every day) in whom I will serve. So when we say that it takes absolutely zero effort on our part and it is all grace, then I would have to say that such a thing is not true. I have to respond and cooperate with the grace that God gives me. This is not Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism because I have God's grace to fall back upon if I do sin (Not as a license to sin but as a means to overcome sin with God's help and power). For I alone can do nothing; And only God is truly good. So I seek His salvation, grace, and love to transform my life. But I still must choose every day this from the Lord. For I still have free will to choose (just as Adam and Eve did).

Side Note:

Oh, and can the man who was saved from off the cliff (in the example above) boast in his own salvation or how he saved himself? No. That would be silly. Nobody does that. They would of course give that honor to the person who pulled them up to safety (even though they had to cooperate with the person pulling them up).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What I think you are doing is making salvation a matter of black and white, that if there is any sin in one's life they are not saved,

Both sins like:

(a) "Murdering", "Committing adultery", and "Stealing" versus say:
(b) Not doing "Doing good works":​

are all Commandments from God (In His Word) that a person could be breaking.

Breaking any Commandment from God is a sin.
For Scripture says, "sin is transgression of the Law" (1 John 3:4).
Laws are Commandments.

Paul even says that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). Paul also says that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Anyways, there are many "good works" listed in God's Word that are commanded for us to do like preaching the gospel and helping the poor (Both of which are serious sins that can put at risk a person's salvation if they refuse to do them in this life as believers in Jesus Christ - See Luke 9:26, Romans 10:10-18, Matthew 25:31-46, James 2:17-20.).

However, just so that there is no confusion, Christians are to obey the Laws or Commandments under the New Testament and not the Old Testament, though. For even the moral laws in the Old Testament were attached with death penalties (Which is not the case under the New Testament). For Christ fulfilled the Law portion of the "Law and the Prophets" in the Old Testament when He died upon the cross.
The "Prophets" or "prophecies" portion of the "Law and the Prophets" in the Old Testament has yet to be fulfilled and is still yet future.
But the Scripture says the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).
This is evident by the fact that Jesus told us to turn the other cheek instead of rendering an eye for an eye.
This is evident by the fact that the priesthood and it's animals sacrifices are no more - with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom.
This is evident by the fact that Peter was told to eat unclean animals (Which is a violation of OT Law).
This is evident by the fact that Paul says we are not to judge those in regards to keeping Sabbaths or holy days.

In any event, the Commandments or Laws of God can be broken up into different categories
(Based upon the type of punishment that is to take place in disobeying them):

The Bible mentions three different types of sins
(or the breaking of God's Commandments).

1. Unforgivable sins.
(These types of sins would be: suicide or self murder (where a person does not come back from the dead) (1 Corinthians 3:17) (1 John 3:15), speaking bad things against the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29), taking the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-11), and rejecting Jesus Christ as one's Savior after abiding with the Holy Ghost and the gifts thereof) (Hebrews 6:4-6).

2. Sins that do not lead unto death
(1 John 5:16-18).
(These types of sins would be refusing to be baptized - See 1 Peter 3:21, or any hidden or secret fault - Psalm 19:12). Another example of a sin that does not lead unto death (i.e. the Lake of Fire) is in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. For Paul mentions that the Corinthians are still brethren despite their prideful boasting in one another (which causes divisions).

3. Sins that do lead unto death (which is also known as the Second Death or the Lake of Fire)
(1 John 5:16-18) (Revelation 21:8).
(These types of sins would be: murder, idolatry, stealing, fornication, drunkeness, and lying, etc.). (These types of sins if not confessed and forsaken can lead to one's destruction in the Lake of Fire - For Jesus said if one looks upon a woman in lust, he warns them that their entire body can be cast into hell-fire. - See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7, and Proverbs 28:13 as the solution to rectifying these types of sins).​

Unofficially, God's Commandments can also be broken up into two additional categories, as well.

For there are:

1. Passive type Commands.
(These are the types of Commands like: not murdering, not stealing, not committing fornication, and not getting drunk, etc.).
(For they do not require any action on your part to partake in them) (One can simply be passive and obey these commandments).

2. Pro-Active type Commands.
(These are the types of Commands like: Love the Lord your God, love your neighbor, preach the gospel, and help the poor and unfortunate).
(For they do require some type of action on your part - Which could also be labeled as good works).​

Please take note that while we do have to cooperate with the LORD's plan for our life (So as to abide in Christ), we are not saved by any effort on our part alone.
For we are saved by God's mercy and by the washing and regeneration of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:15).
This means we can be saved by confessing sin
(Which is by God's mercy).
This means we can be saved by forsaking sin
(Which is a part of our new nature given to us by the Spirit).
Also, a Christian is ultimately saved by abiding in Christ (God) who is the source of a person's salvation, too (See 1 John 5:12).
Works are merely the proof that Christ (God) lives in you.
For without Christ we can do nothing (John 15:5).
In other words, a believer is to have the fruits or works of God in their life because He lives within them.
This is not man directed works on your part to be saved or Works Salvationism. This is Relationship-ism; And anyone who truly has a relationship with the Lord will have His fruit or work done thru their hearts and lives.
For it's why the 24 elders had cast down their crowns before Jesus.
Man submits to God and His Word and the Lord then can do His good work in him.


....

 

[Soyeong]

Are Believers Saved by Grace + Christ's good works (done in you)? or...
Are Believers Saved by Grace + evil works (being ignored on some level)?

A person is going to do works regardless. The question is: Is a person saved by God's grace with Christ doing the good work thru the believer? Or is a person saved by God's grace despite what evil works or sinful things that they do?


...

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

The salvation that God's grace brings involves being trained us to do good works and to renounce sinful works. We are not to do good works in order to become saved, but because we are being saved from doing sinful works for the purpose of doing good works.

 

[Soyeong]

Neither, for two reasons:

1. Grace and works are opposed to each other. You're either saved by grace or by works, it can't be both. The correct way of expressing the gospel is to say God's grace saves those who do good works, not that they are saved by grace + works.

2. Works are necessary in the sense that love is necessary. For example, if I see someone bleeding to death and do nothing, my inaction shows I don't love him because those who love their neighbors will work to help them when they are in need.


If you asked:

Are Believers who do good works because they love God Saved by Grace?
Are Believers who do evil because they don't love God Saved by Grace?

Then I would say the first option is the true gospel.

According to Romans 1:5, we have received grace to bring about the obedience of faith and according to Titus 2:11-14, grace is what trains us to do good works, so grace and works are not opposed to each other, but go hand in hand. We are saved by grace through faith not by doing good works, but for the purpose of doing them (Ephesians 2:8-10).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

The salvation that God's grace brings involves being trained us to do good works and to renounce sinful works. We are not to do good works in order to become saved, but because we are being saved from doing sinful works for the purpose of doing good works.

But are you saved regardless of doing good works?
Can you do evil works and be saved by God's grace?

There are only two ways to look at it.
You are saved by God's grace + Christ directed good works (or):
You are saved by God's grace + Evil works (with good works being optional or good works being co-mingled with evil works).

A person is going to do works regardless.
Is your work going to be evil or good while under God's grace?
If one's evil works are not repented of, or the person does not have a Godly sorrow over them, then God has to agree with a believer's wrong way of thinking that they can do evil with the thinking they are saved. But can God agree with sin? Surely not.

Side Note:

Now, if you believe that every genuine believer will always do good works and live holy, and they will not think they can sin and still be saved (in order for Eternal Security to be true), then this means you believe that a person's free will has been eliminated after having come to Christ. But I do not see such a thing being taught in the Scriptures. Jesus and His followers treat us believers as having a choice in whom we can serve. For even Adam and Eve (who conversed with God) had a free will choice to do good or bad.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Anyways, getting back on topic: Unless a person is strapped to a chair all their life and drugged, they are going to have some kind of works in their life.

In other words, works are inescapable. You are going to do works regardless.

The question is:
Will your works be good or evil?

So again, is a person saved by God's grace + evil works (or a combination of good & evil works)?

Or is a person saved by God's grace + good works (that are actually the good works of Christ working in the believer)?


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

5 "according to your hardness and unrepentant heart treasure up unto yourself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God."
(Romans 2:5-11).


...

 

[Grafted In]

First, I am under no obligation to answer you in the way you that you prefer. You are not my king or my God. Second, your question is loaded and makes false assumptions that are not true.

But isn't that exactly what you are demanding in your poll? You leave absolutely no room for human weakness.

So again, is a person saved by God's grace + evil works (or a combination of good & evil works)?

Or is a person saved by God's grace + good works (that are actually the good works of Christ working in the believer)?

A person is saved by Grace.
There is no single saved person who has not fallen short of perfection. Yet you provide no room in your poll for that fact.
What are we to take from that? That you are perfected and anyone who is not is going to hell?

Then you are saved by Grace + evil works. This would be option number 2 for you. You can sin and still be saved (Which means God would have to agree with your wrong thinking of doing evil in order to save you).
..

According to this you are making a judgement about my salvation. Is that really your calling?
To quote you above" I am under no obligation to answer you in the way that you prefer. You are not my king or my God".

 

[Grafted In]

First, truth should not be afraid of my questions but it should support them because God is good and He is concerned with with a standard of goodness.

Second, I don't like Facebook or Twitter. I don't believe people should share too much info about themselves on the Internet (because it leads to more problems than good in my opinion). These networks should be only used exclusively for business in my opinion. Anyways, any time you want to get back to talking about the Bible and the goodness of God, just let me know.

...

Please do not talk down to me.

You brought up facebook and twitter.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But isn't that exactly what you are demanding in your poll? You leave absolutely no room for human weakness.

Nowhere did I say that a person could not stumble and then confess and forsake of their sin. But confessing is a righteous act that leads one into holiness. For confessing and forsaking sin is repentance. Jesus says repent or perish. So when I say that a person thinks they are saved by Grace + evil works (whereby they do not need to be confessed and or forsaken), then God must condone or agree with their wrong thinking that they can sin and still be saved. But can God agree with sin? Surely not. Grace does not cover willful rebellion done against Him if we are not seeking to be remorseful over such sin and or we do not have any intention of reforming of our sinful condition.

A person is saved by Grace.
There is no single saved person who has not fallen short of perfection. Yet you provide no room in your poll for that fact.
What are we to take from that? That you are perfected and anyone who is not is going to hell?

Jesus said His burden was easy and it was light. But it is still a yoke or a burden. Also, again, not all sin is the same. There are sins that do not lead unto death and sins that do lead unto death. So if a person does not acheive Sinless Perfection, that does not mean they are not saved. But Jesus does call us to be perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect (Which runs contrary to your belief).

According to this you are making a judgement about my salvation. Is that really your calling?
To quote you above" I am under no obligation to answer you in the way that you prefer. You are not my king or my God".

I am talking about how your belief is wrong or flawed. Nowhere did I say the words you were not saved.
As for answering the question: It does not have to be personal. I asked if a believer is saved by either:

(a) Grace + good works (that comes from Christ working in a person - which can include a believer repenting of sin on occasion)? or:
(b) Grace + evil works (which involves no true remorse or reformation of one's evil deeds in this life)?

You do not have to answer this personally.
Just answer it from a third person persepctive.


...

 

[Geralt]

as always Jason you always forget that if God saves persons, He also changes them.

we call it 'regeneration' or mostly known as 'born anew', 'born from above' , 'born of the Spirit'. in other words change from old to new.

if you ignore this factor in your formula, you will end up describing the christian as the guy who does evil and yet get saved; and also its other effect -> conditional salvation based on performance.​

Most in the Eternal Security camp believe option #2, but I have a feeling very few to none will actually be willing to vote for such an option. Why? Because they are simply unwilling to admit the flaw in their own belief system.
For most Eternal Security Proponents believe that no amount of sin can separate a believer from God.
Most Eternal Security Proponents believe that saints will always have some kind of sin (evil) in their life because of a false misinterpretation on 1 John 1:8. This means that they believe that all saints will have evil works within their life. So this means that they will be saved by Grace despite their evil works (i.e. They are saved by Grace + evil works - which is contrary to Biblical teaching of Conditional Salvationism that teaches that we are saved by Grace + Christ directed (good) works (done thru the believer)).


...

 

[bottomofsandal]

as always Jason you always forget that if God saves persons, He also changes them.

we call it 'regeneration' or mostly known as 'born anew', 'born from above' , 'born of the Spirit'. in other words change from old to new.

if you ignore this factor in your formula, you will end up describing the christian as the guy who does evil and yet get saved; and also its other effect -> conditional salvation based on performance.​

Jesus calls it being "born of God" in John 3

Unlike a human birth, being born of The Spirit cannot be terminated

 

[Bible Highlighter]

↑
Anyways, any time you want to get back to talking about the Bible and the goodness of God, just let me know....

Jason, this is condescension.

Well, speaking the truth is not example of condescension, my friend. For you ignored all the verses I brought forth and instead you decided to focus your discussion on me. Also, you did not properly explain how doing willful evil works or sin (with no remorse) while under God's grace is acceptable to God. You mention how man has a weakened condition, but at what level is this condition? Is a believer always going to do really bad and evil things most of the time? Or can a believer walk in holiness most of the time? Can a believer stop sinning for 5 minutes? If he can stop for 5 minutes logic dictates that he can do so for days and even months.

You assert that any works in a believer's life that are not the Good works of Jesus Christ means that person is not saved. I simply asked you if you had any sin in your life and you dodge the question by implying I'm getting too personal.
What is this thread if not personal?

And I did answer your question. I said I do not commit sin that leads unto spiritual death.
I do not want to go into the details of my life because the internet is not the place to do so.
Not everyone in this world is trust worthy and honorable and has your best intention at heart.

We are saved by grace. Period.

Ephesians 2:8-9King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"Not of works, lest any man should boast."

"Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Thank you for bringing the Bible back into our discussion again (Instead of focusing your discussion on me).
Anways, to answer Ephesians 2:8-9, we also have to realize Scripture also says,

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

In addition, Ephesians 2:2-3 says,

"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others" (Ephesians 2:2-3).

This means we used to be sinners as a way of life as a part of our old life and not our new life in Christ.
So a "sin and still be saved" while under grace is not in view in Ephesians 2.

For Ephesians 2:8-9 is speaking of salvation as a gift and verse 13 says we (Gentiles) were brought near by the blood of Christ. Also, verse 18 says that thru Jesus we have access to one Spirit under the Father. So this is talking about the receiving of one's faith and how we are ultimately justified and saved (Which is by his mercy and grace) (Justification). This then leads us to Sanctification in Ephesians 2:10 that says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them." So we are created in Christ Jesus for good works and we are fore-ordained by God that we should walk in them.

So when we first come to the Lord, we can have an assurance of salvation apart from any kind of works just by simply repenting of our sins and accepting Jesus as our Savior (Ephesians 2:8-9). Then from there, the Lord will then work in our hearts and lives to do of His good will and pleasure (Ephesians 2:10).

So in Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul is talking about Initial Salvation or Ultimate Salvation and he is referriing to the words "saved by grace and not of works" as in reference to Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism and in going back to the Law of Moses (i.e. which was a part of the Pharisee religion); And in Ephesians 2:10 and James 2:17, James 2:24, it is talking about Christ directed works done thru the believer after one accepts God's grace and trusts in Him for salvation.

In other words, Paul addressed the problem of the Pharisee religion with the words "law" and "works." For the Pharisees attempted to turn salvation into a form of Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism with no Savior and no grace. This is evident by reading the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee. For the Pharisee did not cry out to God to have mercy on his sins like the Tax Collector did.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To answer the question (I brought forth): Can a believer walk in holiness most of the time?

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).​

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).​

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).​

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).​

....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

as always Jason you always forget that if God saves persons, He also changes them.

we call it 'regeneration' or mostly known as 'born anew', 'born from above' , 'born of the Spirit'. in other words change from old to new.

if you ignore this factor in your formula, you will end up describing the christian as the guy who does evil and yet get saved; and also its other effect -> conditional salvation based on performance.​

So you believe that every genuine believer is going to live holy in this life as a mark of them being saved?
I would think that you would be in agreement with me if that was the case and vote for Option #1.
Or are you saying that no sin can separate a believer from God and that in time, they will eventually live holy in this life?
In other words, are you saying that God will save a believer who went prodigal against Him if God knows they will live holy later on (i.e. return back home to Him)? Meaning, is a believer saved even during the time they were in sin (as long as we see they live holy later on in their life)?


...

 

[Geralt]

this is a done deal, simply because scripture testifies to it. Ephesians 2:10

sin does not separate a true believer, the reason why Christ "saved" his own.

what you need to do is stop speculating about scenarios and what-if's and trust what God has simply said in his holy word. the problem is your starting point is always man, his weakness, his 'free will' and the misunderstanding of what happens in regeneration. if you start with God, his work, his promises, etc.. your issues really become a non-issue.

So you believe that every genuine believer is going to live holy in this life as a mark of them being saved?
I would think that you would be in agreement with me if that was the case.
Or are you saying that no sin can separate a believer from God and that in time, they will eventually live holy in this life?
In other words, are you saying that God will save a believer who went prodigal against Him if God knows they will live holy later on (i.e. return back home to Him)? Meaning, is a believer saved even during the time they were in sin (as long as we see they live holy later on in their life)?
...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

this is a done deal, simply because scripture testifies to it. Ephesians 2:10

sin does not separate a true believer, the reason why Christ "saved" his own.

what you need to do is stop speculating about scenarios and what-if's and trust what God has simply said in his holy word. the problem is your starting point is always man, his weakness, his 'free will' and the misunderstanding of what happens in regeneration. if you start with God, his work, his promises, etc.. your issues really become a non-issue.

But life deals with "what if scenarios."; Especially the scenarios I mentioned. We know life has many possibilities and that man is not being forced against His will to be one way or the other. Scripture even says we are to choose this day in whom we will serve. Statements like these in Scripture would not make any sense if it was God force regenerating a person against their will before they are able to have faith in Christ.

Anyways, not dealing with the questions that I asked before, either means you do not know, or you are afraid to admit the flaws in your own belief system.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, I simply asked you if there was sin in your life. You immediately pull back and say I'm being too personal. I asked for no specifics.
Look back to an earlier post of mine to which you replied that I belong in the second group who you claim are not saved. In effect you are telling me that I am not saved. THAT'S getting personal.
I am not attacking you, Jason. Just pointing out your double standard I eluded to.

Quote Bill: Jason, are you living a totally sinless life?
Jason quote: now you are making it personal.

How much more that telling me I am not saved is personal?
You do not teach in Love.
Your technics are harsh and judgemental.
Is there unforgiveness or bitterness in your life?

It doesn't sound like that is what I was saying. Are you taking everything I said into account here? Please provide exact Post #'s to the exact references of the words I said in relation to what you said exactly.

As for where you think I judged your salvation personally: Please provide exact words and post #'s where you think I did this. If I have done so, then I will apologize for breaking the forum rules. But please know that does not mean I will apologize for what I believe in. For I do not believe it is wrong to share my belief on Soteriology (i.e. A type of faith that is acceptable to God vs. a type of faith that is not acceptable to God). For if we cannot discuss who is saved or not saved (speaking in general terms), then nobody here can expect to have a normal discussion on Soteriology.

Oh, and I did answer your question by saying I do not abide in sin that leads unto death (See 1 John 5:16-18). This is the answer to your question based on the light of the truth of God's Word. For example: If somebody asked me if I liked purple cats or pinks cats, I would have to say that the question was based on a faulty premise. Your question is false because it attempts to lump all sin (or most sin) into the same category (as if there was no kind of sin that can separate a believer from God). Your question attempts to ignore a truth in Scripture in relation to my life. Besides, whether I lived righteously or unrighteously, my life is not the standard of how we are to live. God's Word is the standard. So I will ask you again to address the verses I brought forth that defends God's Word and or to stick to the topic of this thread (Otherwise you are going off topic).


...

 

[DingDing]

Are Believers Saved by Grace + Christ's good works (done in you)? or...
Are Believers Saved by Grace + evil works (being ignored on some level)?

A person is going to do works regardless. The question is: Is a person saved by God's grace with Christ doing the good work thru the believer? Or is a person saved by God's grace despite what evil works or sinful things that they do?


...

I won't vote... This is a setup. There should have been an 'other' option.