Saved by Grace + Christ's works (done in you) vs. Saved by Grace + evil works (being ignored)

Are We Saved by Grace + Christ's works? or Are We Saved by Grace + evil works (being ignored)?

  • Saved by Grace + evil works (being ignored on some level).

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Are Believers Saved by Grace + Christ's good works (done in you)? or...
Are Believers Saved by Grace + evil works (being ignored on some level)?

A person is going to do works regardless. The question is: Is a person saved by God's grace with Christ doing the good work thru the believer? Or is a person saved by God's grace despite what evil works or sinful things that they do?


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Which gospel sounds like it is more of God?
Which gospel do you think would naturally lead a person into righteousness and not sin?
Is not God good?
Do we not know of good vs. evil by what people do and not by having a belief alone?
Why would God condone a believer's sin?
For how is it moral that the Lord's sacrifice in the past reverses a person's current evil or future rebellion?
Would not God have to agree with a believer's current thinking of doing evil in order for such a plan of salvation to work?
If not, then please explain.



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samir

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Are Believers Saved by Grace + Christ's works (done in you)? or...
Are Believers Saved by Grace + evil works (being ignored on some level)?

A person is going to do works regardless. The question is: Is a person saved by God's grace with Christ doing the good work thru the believer? Or is a person saved by God's grace despite what evil works or sinful things that they do?


...

Faith working through love is what is necessary. Those who love God will do good and shun evil. Although good deeds are done with the help of God's grace, God isn't doing the works for the believer without his cooperation.

The problem with the second option is that believers who choose sin (fornication, adultery, drunkenness, etc.) instead of following Christ won't be saved.
 
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samir

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Which gospel sounds like it is more of God?

Neither, for two reasons:

1. Grace and works are opposed to each other. You're either saved by grace or by works, it can't be both. The correct way of expressing the gospel is to say God's grace saves those who do good works, not that they are saved by grace + works.

2. Works are necessary in the sense that love is necessary. For example, if I see someone bleeding to death and do nothing, my inaction shows I don't love him because those who love their neighbors will work to help them when they are in need.


If you asked:

Are Believers who do good works because they love God Saved by Grace?
Are Believers who do evil because they don't love God Saved by Grace?

Then I would say the first option is the true gospel.
 
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Faith working through love is what is necessary. Those who love God will do good and shun evil. Although good deeds are done with the help of God's grace, God isn't doing the works for the believer without his cooperation.

The problem with the second option is that believers who choose sin (fornication, adultery, drunkenness, etc.) instead of following Christ won't be saved.

Yes, the first option would obviously include a believer cooperating with the Lord in the good work He wants to do within them. Those who believe in Calvinism are not of the Conditional Salvationist type belief but they are of Eternal Security camp.

Anyways, Man does have free will and he has a choice to choose every day in whom he will serve. Our choosing God is a part of allowing the Lord to work within us what He desires to do thru us (According to His Word).

"Do two walk together unless they have agreed to do so?" (Amos 3:3).


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bottomofsandal

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Are Believers Saved by Grace + Christ's works (done in you)? or...
Are Believers Saved by Grace + evil works (being ignored on some level)?

A person is going to do works regardless. The question is: Is a person saved by God's grace with Christ doing the good work thru the believer? Or is a person saved by God's grace despite what evil works or sinful things that they do?


...
Saints will do the good works prepared beforehand (Ephesians 2:10).
Saints good deeds glorify God in Heaven (Matthew 5:16).
Christ is the vine, we are branches...apart from Him we can do nothing (John 15:5).


The problem with works is this:
---how many works?
---for how long?
---how often?
---what are the consequences for "underperforming"?


Christ is working in us, glorifying His Name. The power of The Spirit works in us to bear fruit unto God.
Why do some people seem to hijack God's works and make a salvation doctrine out it that glorifies man?
All people are not producing the same quantity of good deeds due to gifts of the Spirit and place in The Body.
 
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Neither, for two reasons:

1. Grace and works are opposed to each other. You're either saved by grace or by works, it can't be both. The correct way of expressing the gospel is to say God's grace saves those who do good works, not that they are saved by grace + works.

2. Works are necessary in the sense that love is necessary. For example, if I see someone bleeding to death and do nothing, my inaction shows I don't love him because those who love their neighbors will work to help them when they are in need.


If you asked:

Are Believers who do good works because they love God Saved by Grace?
Are Believers who do evil because they don't love God Saved by Grace?

Then I would say the first option is the true gospel.

Loving God is assumed in the first option by their allowing Christ to do the good work in them.
For Jesus says if you love me, keep my Commandments (John 14:15).

In Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul is talking about Initial Salvation or how we are ultimately saved. Paul is also attacking the Pharisee religion that teaches salvation is Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism and in obeying the Law of Moses. Paul is not talking about all Law or works here.

James does say we are justified by works and not by faith alone in James 2:24. This would be Christ directed works (done thru the believer out of their love for God) and not man directed works. This is why Paul says we are to prove that Christ in us unless we are reprobate (2 Corinthians 13:5). For if one abides in Christ, then the good work of Christ will be evident in their life and not bad or evil works. Yes, believers can sin, but it is not their natural every day state. Believers confess and forsake sin out of their love for God.


...
 
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Saints will do the good works prepared beforehand (Ephesians 2:10).
Saints good deeds glorify God in Heaven (Matthew 5:16).
Christ is the vine, we are branches...apart from Him we can do nothing (John 15:5).

I am not in disagreement with these verses above. They are very true.

bottomofsandal said:
The problem with works is this:
---how many works?
---for how long?
---how often?
---what are the consequences for "underperforming"?

It is written...

14 "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(Matthew 25:14).

bottomofsandal said:
Christ is working in us, glorifying His Name. The power of The Spirit works in us to bear fruit unto God.
Why do some people seem to hijack God's works and make a salvation doctrine out it that glorifies man?
All people are not producing the same quantity of good deeds due to gifts of the Spirit and place in The Body.

But that is not what I said in the poll options. Nothing mentions of what man does on his own power. I said Christ directed works done thru the believer. That is the first poll option. Not Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism (Which is wrong). For any or all good comes from God and not men. We merely choose of our own free will to align with God and the good work He wants to do thru us.

My guess is you believe in Eternal Security or the second option of the poll. Does the second poll option teach that your belief allows you to sin (do evil) and to still be saved? If that is the case, then how does that sound like it is of God? Is not God good? Why would He allow His people to do evil with the thinking He will reward them with entering His Kingdom? Does not Matthew 25:23 say the following?

"... Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord"


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In other words, if Eternal Security was true, Matthew 25:23 would read something like this instead.

" ... Good choice in believing in my Son, despite your unfaithfulness towards me. You will merely have a loss of rewards, but please enter thou into the joy of thy Lord because of your belief on Jesus alone."​

But is that what the verse says?

Not even close.


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bottomofsandal

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But that is not what I said in the poll options.

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Not trying to be difficult, but the poll options lack clarity-
The first statement is redundant, the second obfuscated.

Saved by Grace + Christ's works are synonymous. Grace is Christ's work, is it not ?

What exactly is Grace + evil works anyway? Can you provide a Biblical illustration?
 
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bottomofsandal

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Saying that God saves those who do good works is in direct opposition to Scripture. None of our works prior to salvation are "good", so they have nothing to do as to whether not God saves us.
Romans 5 is clear on this...yet without strength Christ died for the ungodly.

The Bible says no one is righteous, not even one. There are no good people, only evil.

If I must work to get saved, how much work is required to maintain my salvation?

...no one can answer this because works are not a component of Biblical salvation


Jason0047, where do you draw the line? After salvation we all perform both good and bad works. We are not yet perfected. If this is somehow recorded by God in some way as to whether or not we are saved, then all believers are at risk of losing their salvation. I am seeing this view as though He has a large balance scale, adding our works with good on one side...bad on the other. Then in the end, the heavier side deciding whether or not we are saved. This flies in the face of " For by Grace you are saved...".
It is my opinion that any works, good or bad, have no bearing on our salvation. We are either saved or we are not saved. There is no maybe about it.

First, you rightly allude to the scales as a losing proposition.
Who believes they can generate enough good to outweigh sin?
Secondly, the practice of racking up good deeds is found outside Christianity.
 
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Not trying to be difficult, but the poll options lack clarity-
The first statement is redundant, the second obfuscated.

Saved by Grace + Christ's works are synonymous. Grace is Christ's work, is it not ?

What exactly is Grace + evil works anyway? Can you provide a Biblical illustration?

What you just said. You said, I quote: "After salvation we all perform both good and bad works."

In other words, you are saying that you are: "Saved by Grace despite any evil works that you might do." This would be sin. You are saved despite what sin you may do. This is Option 2, Saved by Grace + evil works. For no works are considered as saving you. But you will have evil works in your life as you said. So you are saved by Grace + evil works (because you believe every believer will have sin or evil works in their life).


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bottomofsandal

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What you just said. Saved by Grace despite any evil works that you might do. This would be sin. You are saved despite what sin you may do.
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OK, I think I am feeling your perspective.

How does God deal with sinning after salvation?
 
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Romans 5 is clear on this...yet without strength Christ died for the ungodly.

The Bible says no one is righteous, not even one. There are no good people, only evil.

If I must work to get saved, how much work is required to maintain my salvation?

...no one can answer this because works are not a component of Biblical salvation

Past tense they were ungodly. Paul essentially says several times that we used to be sinners but we are not that way anymore.


bottomofsandal said:
First, you rightly allude to the scales as a losing proposition.
Who believes they can generate enough good to outweigh sin?
Secondly, the practice of racking up good deeds is found outside Christianity.

Then you must believe Romans 3:11 applies to you, as well.


...
 
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OK, I think I am feeling your perspective.

How does God deal with sinning after salvation?

You believe it is exclusively by chastening and by having a loss of rewards.
The Bible doesn't teach such a thing.
Yes, believers can be chastened by their sinning, but it is to get them to be corrected so as to walk uprightly.


...
 
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bottomofsandal

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You believe it is exclusively by chastening and by having a loss of rewards.
The Bible doesn't teach such a thing.
Yes, believers can be chastened by their sinning, but it is to get them to be corrected so as to walk uprightly.


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WADR, how do you know what I believe friend? Have you sought clarification?

I asked you what happens to the saint when he sins...you did not respond

I asked if a man is saved by works, how much work is necessary to keep salvation...you did not respond


take care
 
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WADR, how do you know what I believe friend? Have you sought clarification?

By your response(s), it doesn't take a detective to figure out that you are either of the Eternal Security camp or you are in support of a sin still be saved type belief.

bottomofsandel said:
I asked you what happens to the saint when he sins...you did not respond

See Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 25:30, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8.

bottomofsandal said:
I asked if a man is saved by works, how much work is necessary to keep salvation...

I gave you Scripture as a response. Did you not read it?

bottomofsandal said:
you did not respond

I do have a life outside of this forum, my friend. Sorry, I did not respond in the time that you desired.

bottomofsandal[/QUOTE said:
take care

And may God's love shine upon you.
And please be well.


...
 
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Most in the Eternal Security camp believe option #2, but I have a feeling very few to none will actually be willing to vote for such an option. Why? Because they are simply unwilling to admit the flaw in their own belief system.
For most Eternal Security Proponents believe that no amount of sin can separate a believer from God.
Most Eternal Security Proponents believe that saints will always have some kind of sin (evil) in their life because of a false misinterpretation on 1 John 1:8. This means that they believe that all saints will have evil works within their life. So this means that they will be saved by Grace despite their evil works (i.e. They are saved by Grace + evil works - which is contrary to Biblical teaching of Conditional Salvationism that teaches that we are saved by Grace + Christ directed (good) works (done thru the believer)).


...
 
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Again, a person is going to do works regardless.
Either a person's works are going to be good or they are going to be evil.
Jesus said we will know false prophets by their fruit.
Fruits are works or deeds (Compare Matthew 3:8 with Acts 26:20).

So again, one is either saved by Grace + Christ directed good works (done thru a believer) or...
One is saved by Grace + evil works (being ignored on some level).


...
 
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samir

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Loving God is assumed in the first option by their allowing Christ to do the good work in them.
For Jesus says if you love me, keep my Commandments (John 14:15).

In Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul is talking about Initial Salvation or how we are ultimately saved. Paul is also attacking the Pharisee religion that teaches salvation is Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism and in obeying the Law of Moses. Paul is not talking about all Law or works here.

James does say we are justified by works and not by faith alone in James 2:24. This would be Christ directed works (done thru the believer out of their love for God) and not man directed works. This is why Paul says we are to prove that Christ in us unless we are reprobate (2 Corinthians 13:5). For if one abides in Christ, then the good work of Christ will be evident in their life and not bad or evil works. Yes, believers can sin, but it is not their natural every day state. Believers confess and forsake sin out of their love for God.


...

Understood. I agree with #1 if understood correctly although I'd prefer "Believers who do good works are saved by grace" instead of "Believers are saved by grace + good works."

The reason is that although faith and works are necessary, neither will save anyone because salvation is by grace alone. They only save in the sense that God only saves those who have faith and works. It's like saying "Salvation is by grace + faith" instead of "Salvation is by grace alone through faith."

Not trying to nitpick and I'm sure you understand and agree with what I'm saying. I mention it because it can be misunderstood the way it's written.
 
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