Apart from works?

[bcbsr]

Well, first, Wikipedia is only as good and trust worthy as the sources they provide and as good and knowledgeable the author who is writing it. Wikipedia is not a religious website but it is a secular one (that writes facts based on the beliefs of others from their secular understanding). If you were to research religious websites, they refer to Antinomianism as an ignoring of the moral law. Yes, it is probably true that the first arrival of the word "Antinomianism" was in reference to ignoring the Law of Moses, but in time it the meaning of this word has changed to refer to an ignoring of the moral law (In fact, the article at Wikipedia appears to mention this fact, but they have not updated the first paragraph to reflect this change; Anyways, here is the paragraph at Wikipedia that tells us this).

"A general consensus has been historically reached as to which laws of the Old Testament Christians are still enjoined to keep. These moral laws, as opposed to civil or ceremonial laws, are derivative of what St. Paul refers to as the natural law (Rom. 2.14-15). Mosaic law has authority only insofar as it reflects the commands of Christ and the natural law. Christian sects and theologians who believe that they are freed from more moral constraint than is customary are often called "antinomian" by their critics."

~ Wikipedia.​

Second, religious websites like Gotquestions, and Theopedia define Antinomianism as an ignoring of the moral law. Even the dictionary defines the word Antinomianism in such a way. So while the word "Antinomianism" might have had a meaning at one time as being in reference to ignoring the Law of Moses, the word has become to mean today in the religious world as a reference to ignoring God's moral law(s) in general.

http://www.gotquestions.org/antinomianism.html
Please take note that while Gotquestions says Antinomianism is unbiblical, it states that Eternal Security is true (Which is false).
http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-security.html

http://www.theopedia.com/antinomianism

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/antinomianism



No. First, God does not give out commands to his people just so that He can turn around tell them to break them or to downplay their importance. That doesn't make any sense. In addition, such a concept ignores morality and God is not against morality but He is for it. God is good and He is not evil. God supports what is good, just, and righteous. For I should not even have to tell you this. Morality helps you to understand who the good guys vs. the bad guys are when you go out into the world, or when you watch a movie, or turn on the news. Without morals, one is lawless and evil.

Second, there was no system of Law alone type salvation in the Old Testament. Faith existed even in the Old Testament just as God's laws existed in the Old Testament. In fact, even before the giving of the Law of Moses, there was still the existence of God's laws. For sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). Meaning, the people in the global flood perished because of their wickedness or sin (i.e. because they broke God's laws). For Scriptures even says Noah was a preacher of righteousness. This is not in conflict with faith.

No. Paul is talking about how one is under a curse if they are seeking to go back to the Law of Moses so as to be justified. Paul was also addressing the fact that it is not Law alone whereby we are justified or saved but it is by God's grace. For it is the person of Jesus who ultimately saves us; And it is thru Jesus whereby we are saved both in Justification and in Sanctification.

The Law being referenced here is the Law of Moses and it is not in reference to the Commands in the New Testament (Put forth by Jesus, and Paul and the other apostles). If such were the case, then there would be many contradictions in Scripture (See 1 John 3:23, 1 Timothy 6:3-4, Luke 6:46, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 7:26-27).

In fact, we know that the Law mentioned in Galatians is in reference to the Law of Moses because Galatians 3:24 says,

"Therefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, "
(Galatians 3:24).​

A school master was a teacher. This teacher is related to the Law that brought us UNTO Christ. So this is in reference to the Law of Moses because it says this type of Law brought us to Christ. But when Christ came, Jesus did not say that all law was abolished. Jesus says he came to fulfill the Law and not to destroy or abolish Law. Scripture says the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).

...

Sorry, but so much of what you say appears inherently contradictory. You reference http://www.gotquestions.org/antinomianism.html Yet they say, "Obeying the law of Christ is not a requirement to earn or maintain salvation." But you say it is a requirement. So are they antinomian? According to what you wrote they would be. So why give a link to them if they don't agree with your understanding of what "Antinomian" is? It's confusing.

Then you quote me saying:

So under the Old Covenant one would have faith in God and follow His regulations in order to be saved. A concept of which Paul calls "a Curse".

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Gal 3:10-12

And then you say "No". "No" to what? There's not even a question in that statement. Are you saying that you disagree with what the apostle Paul says. You're very confusing.

Then you make the statement, "God does not give out commands to his people just so that He can turn around tell them to break them or to downplay their importance". But aren't you yourself doing that with the Law of Moses? And what does your diatribe that follows that have to do with Gal 3:10-12?

And then you go on to say, "there was no system of Law alone type salvation in the Old Testament". Of course there isn't. People would have faith that their compliance to the Law would justify them, which is what God promises concerning the Law of Moses, and which Paul is writing about in the Galatians passage, as well as in Romans. So, faith + Works, just like you advocate. For what is it that you advocate a person rely upon in order to maintain their salvation status? Their own performance. Their compliance to the "Moral" Law as you say.

And indeed you admit that the only difference in your salvation scheme with regards Gal 3:10-12 is simply that the Law of Moses was replaced with New Testament commands. Yet Paul's argument in Gal 3:10-12 still holds whatever law you insert in there, if the idea is that you lose your salvation everytime there's a violation of said law.

You could just as well say, "All who rely on observing the New Testament commands to maintain their salvation status are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the New Testament." It's the same thing, if that were the case.

Fact is, that's not the case because justification is by faith apart from works. A person is saved by faith and then lives the Christian life, complies with New Testament commands, as a saved person.

In your scenario there is no one who is presently saved. They only have the potential to be saved and only will be saved if they end up being a "good Christian".

 

[bcbsr]

For example: Let's say someone gives you a car as a free gift. Does that mean you can ignore the responsibilities in owning such a gift by running red lights and by drinking and driving?

Unless your friend you are talking with here is proposing Works Alone Salvationism with no grace and no savior, there is no conflict of a person taking care of a free gift that they received. For taking care of a gift is not the same as working so as to obtain enough money to buy the car. For life teaches us that there are responsibilities in having good gifts.


...

Apparently you have a misconception of what a "free gift" is. You're saying that if you give someone a "free gift", you'll take it back if you don't like how they're using it! Well then it wasn't a "free gift". And if you make a promise that the gift is free, then you take it back, you'd be a liar, untrustworthy. Is that what you're saying of Jesus?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry, but so much of what you say appears inherently contradictory. You reference http://www.gotquestions.org/antinomianism.html Yet they say, "Obeying the law of Christ is not a requirement to earn or maintain salvation." But you say it is a requirement. So are they antinomian? According to what you wrote they would be. So why give a link to them if they don't agree with your understanding of what "Antinomian" is? It's confusing.

It's not confusing. I am showing you that there are people who believe in Eternal Security today who claim they are not Antinomian (i.e. That they do not ignore God's moral laws) and yet that is exactly what they are doing when they claim to hold to a belief in Eternal Security (Because one must believe in a license to sin on some level to make such a wrong belief work). They do not realize that their beliefs are in contradiction with each other. Just go to dictionary.com. It says it is an ignoring of morality. That is what the word means today. If you do not agree with the word's use, take it up with Dictionary.com and Theopedia.com and Gotquestions.org

Then you quote me saying:

So under the Old Covenant one would have faith in God and follow His regulations in order to be saved. A concept of which Paul calls "a Curse".

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Gal 3:10-12

And then you say "No". "No" to what? There's not even a question in that statement. Are you saying that you disagree with what the apostle Paul says. You're very confusing.

I am saying "no" to your false reading in Galatians 3:10-12. You believe it is talking about all law whatsoever. I have pointed out to you that by reading Galatians 3:24 that this is clearly in reference to the Law of Moses and it is not in reference to the Laws or Commands in the New Testament.

Then you make the statement, "God does not give out commands to his people just so that He can turn around tell them to break them or to downplay their importance". But aren't you yourself doing that with the Law of Moses? And what does your diatribe that follows that have to do with Gal 3:10-12?

No. Again, I do not believe in following the Law of Moses or the Old Covenant Law (But I believe in following the New Testament Commands after repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ as one's Savior). Paul was not only addressing the heresy of those who were wrongfully going back to the Law of Moses (as a whole) to be saved, but he was also addressing the heresy of trying to be saved by Law alone without a Savior. That is why he makes a contrast back and forth between Law (i.e. Law alone) versus grace (i.e. our Savior Jesus Christ). James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). So this shoots down your belief that faith alone is what is required.

And then you go on to say, "there was no system of Law alone type salvation in the Old Testament". Of course there isn't. People would have faith that their compliance to the Law would justify them, which is what God promises concerning the Law of Moses, and which Paul is writing about in the Galatians passage, as well as in Romans. So, faith + Works, just like you advocate. For what is it that you advocate a person rely upon in order to maintain their salvation status? Their own performance. Their compliance to the "Moral" Law as you say.

But nowhere does God condemn people for having faith and doing what he commands them to do. That is an addition of Scripture that you are adding. Paul was addressing those who were focused on Law alone. In other words, you need to find a verse in the Bible that condemns Faith + NT Works in order to make your theology work. Good luck in finding such a verse.

And indeed you admit that the only difference in your salvation scheme with regards Gal 3:10-12 is simply that the Law of Moses was replaced with New Testament commands. Yet Paul's argument in Gal 3:10-12 still holds whatever law you insert in there, if the idea is that you lose your salvation everytime there's a violation of said law.

You could just as well say, "All who rely on observing the New Testament commands to maintain their salvation status are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the New Testament." It's the same thing, if that were the case.

Again, Paul is talking about striving to obey Laws alone without faith in order to be saved. This is evident because Paul contrasts faith with the Law. Paul makes no mention of condemning Faith + NT Law. In fact, Paul says we establish the Law thru faith (Romans 3:31). For the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12). If what you are saying is true, then Titus 2:11-12 should not be in your Bible.

Yes. This is true. If you do not continue in doing what God's says even in the New Testament, you can be separated from God.

The point Paul was making is that if you are under Law alone then you are under a curse because there is no way to get clean by way of the Savior by confessing your sins so as to be forgiven by Him (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9).

Fact is, that's not the case because justification is by faith apart from works. A person is saved by faith and then lives the Christian life, complies with New Testament commands, as a saved person.

In your scenario there is no one who is presently saved. They only have the potential to be saved and only will be saved if they end up being a "good Christian".

Yes. This is true. The Bible says cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness. The Bible says that Jesus will send forth his angels and gather out of his kingdom all who offend and do iniquity and cast them into the furnace of fire. Jesus says if you look upon a woman in lust your whole body could be cast into hell fire. Over and over we see the warnings. Ignore them at your own peril.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Apparently you have a misconception of what a "free gift" is. You're saying that if you give someone a "free gift", you'll take it back if you don't like how they're using it! Well then it wasn't a "free gift". And if you make a promise that the gift is free, then you take it back, you'd be a liar, untrustworthy. Is that what you're saying of Jesus?

Obviously God lets His people know that there are conditions to having His free gift (within His Word). Just as life teaches us that there are conditions in having good gifts today. It's not a matter of earning the gift, but a matter of responsibility in owning such a free gift.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;" (2 Timothy 4:3).

Eternal Security is a belief that justifies one's lusts or sins while they can still be saved. It is wrong and it ignores morality or the goodness of God.

....

 

[Geralt]

- salvation has always been by works. a person's 'righteousness' qualifies a person to be righteous before God.

- BUT no one is righteous, ALL have sinned and come short.

- the reason Christ came, became human, obeyed the full extent of the law yet remained sinless, and died on the cross.

- Christ therefore is the Righteous one, the second Ad who obeyed God in contrast to the first Adam who failed.

now here is the gospel:

- that by Faith in Christ who is God's righteousness, His death on the cross makes us blameless, AND his Life of righteousness becomes our righteousness.

- in essence WE are MADE righteous. We have obtained a righteousness not of our own, but that of Christ.

- another way of saying it is that Christ's works, becomes our Works. We in this regard, by faith in Christ, have fulfilled all the requirements (works) of the law.

so is salvation by works ? yes! but not OUR own works.
so is salvation by faith alone ? yes!, because through faith in Christ, His works becomes ours. and God qualifies our work (which is Christ) as righteous.

salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many WILL BE MADE RIGHTEOUS.

Is salvation by faith apart from works, or is salvation contingent upon one's ongoing performance and/or one's' involvement in religious ceremonies.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

- salvation has always been by works. a person's 'righteousness' qualifies a person to be righteous before God.

- BUT no one is righteous, ALL have sinned and come short.

- the reason Christ came, became human, obeyed the full extent of the law yet remained sinless, and died on the cross.

- Christ therefore is the Righteous one, the second Ad who obeyed God in contrast to the first Adam who failed.

now here is the gospel:

- that by Faith in Christ who is God's righteousness, His death on the cross makes us blameless, AND his Life of righteousness becomes our righteousness.

- in essence WE are MADE righteous. We have obtained a righteousness not of our own, but that of Christ.

- another way of saying it is that Christ's works, becomes our Works. We in this regard, by faith in Christ, have fulfilled all the requirements (works) of the law.

so is salvation by works ? yes! but not OUR own works.
so is salvation by faith alone ? yes!, because through faith in Christ, His works becomes ours. and God qualifies our work (which is Christ) as righteous.

salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many WILL BE MADE RIGHTEOUS.

But one has to ignore morality (or the goodness of God) in order to make this version of salvation work, though. A person can sin and think they are saved. This would mean God would have to agree with a believer's wrong thinking that it is okay for them to sin while they are yet going to be rewarded with the goodness of entering God's Kingdom. For the Scriptures say we are to have the mind of Christ. Would Christ's mind ever agree to sin and think it is okay? No. Never. So neither should we.

In fact, what you are failing to understand is that Christ saves us both in Justification (faith / belief) and Christ saves us in Sanctification (works), too. For without Christ, we can do nothing (John 15:5); And it is God who works in us to do of his good will and pleasure (Philippians 2:13). For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (sin) (1 John 3:8). This would be Jesus living within you to destroy the works of the devil (sin) within your life.

However, the version of Eternal Security that says that you can sin and still be saved is a powerless gospel. There is no change in one's life. No true evidence that one has been truly been born again from above. There is no new man. There is no real proof that Jesus lives within them (who has truly broke the chains of sin and bondage within their life).


...

 

[bling]

Apparently you have a misconception of what a "free gift" is. You're saying that if you give someone a "free gift", you'll take it back if you don't like how they're using it! Well then it wasn't a "free gift". And if you make a promise that the gift is free, then you take it back, you'd be a liar, untrustworthy. Is that what you're saying of Jesus?

Bcbsr, I think you have a good understanding of “gift” as used in scripture

Jason’s understanding of “gift” as “there are conditions to having His free gift” is not what I find.

You both are missing one important fact: A gift from God cannot be taken/stolen/lost from you by anyone and God will not take it back, which the Hebrew writer sees as being analogous to a “birthright”. But since the gift has truly become yours (ownership has been transferred to you), you can sell it or give it away of your own free will.

All the commands given to Christians who possess this wonderful gift (eternal life with God in heaven after death), are there to help the individual want to keep the gift. If you quit using Godly type Love and pursue selfish type love (the perceived pleasures of sin for a season), the value of being at a huge Love feast in heaven (of only Godly type Love) will have no interest for you and you could give up the harvest as Paul describes it in Gal. 6:9.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Bcbsr, I think you have a good understanding of “gift” as used in scripture

Jason’s understanding of “gift” as “there are conditions to having His free gift” is not what I find.

You both are missing one important fact: A gift from God cannot be taken/stolen/lost from you by anyone and God will not take it back, which the Hebrew writer sees as being analogous to a “birthright”. But since the gift has truly become yours (ownership has been transferred to you), you can sell it or give it away of your own free will.

All the commands given to Christians who possess this wonderful gift (eternal life with God in heaven after death), are there to help the individual want to keep the gift. If you quit using Godly type Love and pursue selfish type love (the perceived pleasures of sin for a season), the value of being at a huge Love feast in heaven (of only Godly type Love) will have no interest for you and you could give up the harvest as Paul describes it in Gal. 6:9.

No. Again, taking care of a gift is not the same as trying to earn a gift. Surely if someone were to give you a car as a free gift, that would not mean you could go around and ignore the responsibilities in owning such a gift by running red lights, drinking and driving, etc. You would not have your car (or gift) for very long if you did things like that.

In fact, we see clearly in the Parable of the Sower that there are those who did not endure in their faith with God but they fell away from the faith for different reasons. One believer fell away due to not wanting to be persecuted for their faith. Another believer fell away because of the cares and riches of this life (Matthew 13:18-23). Jesus even warns people that if they lust after a woman their whole body could be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). John tells us that if one hates their brother they are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding within them (1 John 3:15). Jesus says that he will send his angels to remove all who do iniquity (sin) within HIS KINGDOM and cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 13:41-42).

I mean, stop and think for a moment. Why would God who is good agree with rewarding a believer (by their entering God's Kingdom) in their doing of evil or sin? It doesn't make any sense. God is holy, just, and good.

...

 

[DeepWater]

God saveD you, based on what Christ on a Cross did to provide it for you, for FREE.

See any of your works in that?
Thats because there are none.

"works" are the uniform you put on in the Army AFTER you are signed up and accepted.
"works' are what you do, after you are in the game., and not to get you in the game.
Dont confuse "Discipleship" that you do, AFTER you are saved, with what GOD DID for you, already.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God saveD you, based on what Christ on a Cross did to provide it for you, for FREE.

See any of your works in that?
Thats because there are none.

"works" are the uniform you put on in the Army AFTER you are signed up and accepted.
"works' are what you do, after you are in the game., and not to get you in the game.
Dont confuse "Discipleship" that you do, AFTER you are saved, with what GOD DID for you, already.

Well, nowhere in Scripture does anything even remotely teach this. In fact, you did not read your Bible one day and go "Oh hey, this is Eternal Security!" You came to believe in Eternal Security as a result of what man told you and not from a study of God's Word by way of prayer in the Spirit.

I mean, how do you justify morality or the goodness of God with Eternal Security (Which teaches that you can sin and still be saved)? Do you think God can agree with your wrong way of thinking that it is okay for a believer to be rewarded with Heaven even if they are doing evil or sin? Does not life teach us that if the consequences of something bad is taken away, man is going to naturally do that bad thing? Wouldn't God have to agree with sin on some level if a believer were to think it is okay to sin on some level with the thinking they are saved?

...

 

[Freedom Now]

Jesus told a parable, I believe it is found in Mathew....

For it will be as when a man going on a journey called His servants and entrusted to them his property,

to one he GAVE five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to

his ability.

Then he went away.

He who had received five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.

So also, he who had the two talents made two talents more.

But he who had received the one talent went and dug it in the ground and hit his mster's money.

Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.

And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying,....

Master, you delivered to me five talents, here I have made five talents more.

His master said to him,....Well done , good and faithful servant, you have been faithful over a little,

I will set you over much, enter into the joy of your master.

And he who had two talents came forward, saying,....Master, you delivered to me two talents,

here I have made two talents more.

His master said to him,.....Well done, good and faithful servant, you have been faithful over a little,

I will set you over much, enter into the joy of your master.

He who received one talent came forward saying,...Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where

you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow,

so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground, here you have what is yours.

But his master answered him,......You wicked and slothful servant! You knew I reap where I have not sowed,

and gather where I have not winnowed?

Then you ought to have invested your money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received

what was my own with interest.

So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents.

For every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance,

but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness, there men will weep and gnash their teeth.




There are some that believe that we have no participation in the things of God.

This parable talks about three servants, and they were all servants of the MASTER.


To be cast into the outer darkness, would that mean they were in the light?



Jesus said,...

Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you,

NOT AS THE WORD GIVES DO I GIVE TO YOU.


You would have to wonder,... Are we bringing the things of God into the earthly, worldly understanding,

and base our theology on that?



As God said ,... My thoughts are not your thoughts...


He who trusts in his own mind is a fool....

A man who wanders from the way of understanding, will rest in the assembly of the dead.


It is the glory of God to conceal things,....


My son if you receive My words and treasure up My commandments with you,

making your ear attentive to Wisdom, and inclining your heart to understanding,

Yes, if you cry out for insight and raise your voice for understanding,

if you seek like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures,

THEN you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

For the Lord gives Wisdom, from His mouth come knowledge and understanding,

He stores up sound Wisdom for the UPRIGHT, HE is a shield to THOSE WHO WALK IN

INTEGRITY, guarding the path of justice and preserving the WAY OF THE SAINTS.



If any of you lack Wisdom, let him ask GOD who gives to all men generously and without reproaching,

and it will be given him. BUT let him ask in faith, with no DOUBTING,

for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.

For that person must not suppose that a double-minded man , unstable in all his ways,

WILL RECEIVE ANYTHING FROM THE LORD.


Are you seeking God with your whole heart, soul , mind and strength, and with everything that is within you?

Have you lost your life, to gain His life?


Have you left the world with all its lusts and desires behind?

Are you relying on your human understanding to figure out scriptures?


Are you still double-minded?



May God open our eyes to truly show us where our heart is.


May God bless you.

 

[Geralt]

you are dwelling on speculation.

you forget one thing, if God saves His people, He also CHANGES THEM.
God does not leave his children in the dark, he works them and not just works with them.

and the people of God do NOT ignore morality, in fact they delight in obedience.

Eph 2:8,9 after all is incomplete without v10.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

here you see the mystery that God directly works/forms his children, while at the same time does not in any way leave them irresponsible but actually gives us the responsibility to walk in them. It is not an option, but inherent, part of the new creation. Or using modern terms you may say we are "programmed" to do good works, yet we are not in any way robots.

Eternal security is NOT based on man's failings or misconceptions but solely rest on God's promises and God's active participation in the life of his children. We are his workmanship. Think about it.

But one has to ignore morality (or the goodness of God) in order to make this version of salvation work, though. A person can sin and think they are saved. This would mean God would have to agree with a believer's wrong thinking that it is okay for them to sin while they are yet going to be rewarded with the goodness of entering God's Kingdom. For the Scriptures say we are to have the mind of Christ. Would Christ's mind ever agree to sin and think it is okay? No. Never. So neither should we.

In fact, what you are failing to understand is that Christ saves us both in Justification (faith / belief) and Christ saves us in Sanctification (works), too. For without Christ, we can do nothing (John 15:5); And it is God who works in us to do of his good will and pleasure (Philippians 2:13). For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (sin) (1 John 3:8). This would be Jesus living within you to destroy the works of the devil (sin) within your life.

However, the version of Eternal Security that says that you can sin and still be saved is a powerless gospel. There is no change in one's life. No true evidence that one has been truly been born again from above. There is no new man. There is no real proof that Jesus lives within them (who has truly broke the chains of sin and bondage within their life).

...

 

[sdowney717]

If you have ability, according to your ability, it is a God given ability, the source is not of yourself.
A man can receive NOTHING unless it is given to him from heaven, IMO, I agree with scripture.

 

[fhansen]

So rather than viewing such verses that speak of a correlation between one's behavior and one's salvation status as speaking of the process of being sanctified as a saved person, you view them as obtaining and maintaining one's salvation status based upon one's ongoing performance.

Given that position, what is the basis of one's hope and joy?

For example when the Galatians were influence by such an idea, naturally their joy was taken away, seeing as there was no guarantee they would ultimately be saved. Thus Paul asks, "What has happened to all your joy?" Gal 4:15

The joy of knowing Christ and eternal life remains, but not without at least a hint of tension, of fear and trembling, especially if we find ourselves sinning and/or not producing fruit. Either way we're obliged to be holy, without which no one sees the Lord (Heb 12:14). Paul, as well, knew of the need to strive:

"I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus." Phil 3:10-14

 

[Bible Highlighter]

you are dwelling on speculation.

you forget one thing, if God saves His people, He also CHANGES THEM.
God does not leave his children in the dark, he works them and not just works with them.

and the people of God do NOT ignore morality, in fact they delight in obedience.

Eph 2:8,9 after all is incomplete without v10.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

here you see the mystery that God directly works/forms his children, while at the same time does not in any way leave them irresponsible but actually gives us the responsibility to walk in them. It is not an option, but inherent, part of the new creation. Or using modern terms you may say we are "programmed" to do good works, yet we are not in any way robots.

Eternal security is NOT based on man's failings or misconceptions but solely rest on God's promises and God's active participation in the life of his children. We are his workmanship. Think about it.

Let's move on to my next question (or test) then.

Q: Just because a believer generally lives a holy life can they die in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) and still be saved?

In other words, can sin separate a believer from Christ (God)?
What about free will?




....

 

[bcbsr]

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:1,2

What does it mean to be set free? And how does that relate to their being no condemnation.

Sounds like what Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

As for "free will", hasn't that issue be impact by regeneration as John writes, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

So it's not possible for those born of God to continue living a lifestyle of sin, not due to person "effort", but rather as the inevitable consequence of having been born of God.

Furthermore Paul writes, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 8:38,39

Seems to me "nor the future" to be saying "Once Saved Always Saved"

And given that you and me are part of the creation and it says, "nor anything else in all creation" which says to me that once a person is in Christ it's not up to him to decide to leave.

 

[Geralt]

1. the issue of saving is not based on NOT sinning but on trusting and believing christ.
it is not your performance, but on trusting christ that determines your salvation.

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is NOT condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. ​

2. A believer NEVER separates himself from Christ even though he sins (not intentionally), the believer confesses and always comes back. There is such a thing as growth, or growing or christian maturity - if you haven't noticed yet.

1Jn 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. ​

Christ never separates himself from His children, he forms and guides them. God's love binds us to Him and He will never leave His children.

Rom 8:38-39 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord​

3. What about it ? Give specifics.

Let's move on to my next question (or test) then.
Q1: Just because a believer generally lives a holy life can they die in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) and still be saved?
Q2: In other words, can sin separate a believer from Christ (God)?
Q3: What about free will?
....

 

[bling]

No. Again, taking care of a gift is not the same as trying to earn a gift. Surely if someone were to give you a car as a free gift, that would not mean you could go around and ignore the responsibilities in owning such a gift by running red lights, drinking and driving, etc. You would not have your car (or gift) for very long if you did things like that.

Was the car "given" with the condition you had to drive it correctly?

In the case you present: it is not the giver of the gift (the free car) taking the car back. You could still have the car but not be allowed to drive by civil law, which is not the giver’s fault.

In fact, we see clearly in the Parable of the Sower that there are those who did not endure in their faith with God but they fell away from the faith for different reasons. One believer fell away due to not wanting to be persecuted for their faith. Another believer fell away because of the cares and riches of this life (Matthew 13:18-23). Jesus even warns people that if they lust after a woman their whole body could be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). John tells us that if one hates their brother they are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding within them (1 John 3:15). Jesus says that he will send his angels to remove all who do iniquity (sin) within HIS KINGDOM and cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 13:41-42).

In the parable of the “soils” the sower never takes the (word) good news message back from any of the soils.

The “soil” with weeds in it and the good seed is sown on it must not continue to provide support to weeds, if it does the good news message will not grow and the soil will cause it to wither away.

The rocky soil is itself the problem, not wanting the message to go beyond just the surface.

The soil in the path is not accepting the message (the charitable gift) to begin with.

I mean, stop and think for a moment. Why would God who is good agree with rewarding a believer (by their entering God's Kingdom) in their doing of evil or sin? It doesn't make any sense. God is holy, just, and good.

We are all evil and big time sinners, but the good news (seed/gift) has gone out to all of us. This gift (seed) hits (the soils) each one of us and we can use it or let it wither away (discard it), but it is not the sower taking it back.

The sowing story in the Gal. 6: 6-9 might be better in understanding how this works.

 

[fhansen]

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:1,2

What does it mean to be set free? And how does that relate to their being no condemnation.

Sounds like what Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

As for "free will", hasn't that issue be impact by regeneration as John writes, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

So it's not possible for those born of God to continue living a lifestyle of sin, not due to person "effort", but rather as the inevitable consequence of having been born of God.

Furthermore Paul writes, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 8:38,39

Seems to me "nor the future" to be saying "Once Saved Always Saved"

And given that you and me are part of the creation and it says, "nor anything else in all creation" which says to me that once a person is in Christ it's not up to him to decide to leave.

All of these verses reflect the ideal-they are not absolutes. And this is why scripture continuously warns and admonishes believers, those who've tasted of the heavenly gift, to refrain from sin, be vigilant, be perfect, be holy, strive, persevere, be not poor soil where the seed takes root, then later withers and dies, or branches grafted in and later cut off, to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, remain in Christ, be pure of heart, invest ones talents, be unashamed of the gospel, etc, etc-with the loss of the kingdom generally at stake.